The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

[cassiopeia]

Chapter 7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Overview of Chapter 7

This chapter of the Silmarillion encompasses the making of the Silmarils by Fëanor, the lust of Melkor for them, the lies spread among the elves by Melkor, the banishment of Fëanor from Tirion for threatening his half-brother Fingolfin, and Melkor's departure from Valinor after Fëanor cast him away after perceiving his lust for the Silmarils.

General Comments

I feel that Fëanor was too hasty in confronting his half-brother, although no doubt the lies of Melkor fired the flame in his belly. I was surprised Fëanor actually listened to Melkor, since Melkor had already committed evil deeds and had spent three ages in bondage. I think the Valar were right in banishing Fëanor from Tirion, for the lies of Melkor and his wroth for his half-brother would only grow in Fëanor’s heart. Although it is all too easy in retrospect, I think that Fëanor’s actions in this chapter all but make it a certainty that Melkor would wreak the destruction of the Two Trees, and steal the Silmarils.

Links

I did not have the opportunity to consult any of The History of Middle-earth. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that some relevant material can be found in The Book of Lost Tales Part I and The War of the Jewels. I did happen to find some pretty pictures:

Map of Aman: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3465/map_aman.jpg
Map of Valinor: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3465/map_valinor.jpg
Morgoth: http://www.nightrunner.com/cgi-bin/show_image.py?id=1923&pn=0

(I just checked these links, and the two map links are not working at the moment. Hopefully they will be working soon.)

Discussion Points

In this post I will raise some points that I thought were interesting. I would invite others to raise points which they think are relevant.

It was said that:

For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable.

Did Fëanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fëanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?

As three great Jewels they were in form.

Is there any significance in the fact that three Silmarilli were made? Has it something to do with the three themes of Ilúvatar, or something else?

The next paragraph says:

But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made.

All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps I’m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. After all, the destruction the Silmarils caused, surely it would be a good idea to never real their substance, lest another tragedy occurs.

More:

And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them. The heart of Fëanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made.

We know the Silmarils ended up in the sky, the sea, and the earth in the end. Yet Mandos says the fates of Arda. This seems to me to foreshadow a time in the future when the Silmarils will again play a role in the fates of the creatures of Arda. Will the Silmarilli play some part in the destiny of the world? How will this occur? Will the Silmarils lost in the sea and earth be found again?

*continued next post*

[cassiopeia]

*continued*

The next paragraph:

Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart.

Why did Melkor lust for the Silmarils? It says earlier in The Silmarillion that Melkor desires light, but I always thought light as ‘good’. Did they represent power? Was it because he hated Fëanor so much? Or did he think they would make a pretty addition to his iron crown? :)

I've always wondered about the size of the Silmarils. It says that Fëanor 'would wear them, blazing on his brow'. Surely this means they cannot be much bigger than, say, an apricot. Does it say somewhere in Tolkien’s writings the size of the Silmarils?

Small truth was there in this, and little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men; but many of the Noldor believed, or half believed, the evil words.

When have the Valar ever tried to sway the wills of Men?

Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.

In my dictionary, mightiest means ‘Having or showing great strength or force or intensity.’ But if Melkor is the mightiest of Eä, how did Tulkas cast Melkor upon his face and chain him up, as seen in chapter three?

All right, that's all have to say in my introduction. Discuss away!

[Earniel]

heehee I'm first yipie! :D

Did Fëanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fëanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?

I think there is some logic in assuming that the Trees (since their kind is mortal) could die. I'm not sure if Fëanor actually knew that the Trees were going to be destroyed. Since he had no hand in creating the Trees I suppose he could take a more objective view than with the Silmarils. But since he was the maker of them, I think that even if he had had any foreshadow of the things the jewels would cause, he did not want to see it. He loved those jewels, I don't think he ever thought that the beauty of the Simarils could cause trouble.

We know the Silmarils ended up in the sky, the sea, and the earth in the end. Yet Mandos says the fates of Arda. This seems to me to foreshadow a time in the future when the Silmarils will again play a role in the fates of the creatures of Arda. Will the Silmarilli play some part in the destiny of the world? How will this occur? Will the Silmarils lost in the sea and earth be found again?

I assume that at the ending of the world all three will be found and united. At least I remember reading something like that somewhere. And that they will be broken and that their light will be used to revive the Trees.

Why did Melkor lust for the Silmarils? It says earlier in The Silmarillion that Melkor desires light, but I always thought light as ‘good’. Did they represent power? Was it because he hated Fëanor so much? Or did he think they would make a pretty addition to his iron crown?

I think he wanted them because they were unique and irreplacable. The Silmarils seemed to wake a desire in nearly everybody who saw them.

I've always wondered about the size of the Silmarils. It says that Fëanor 'would wear them, blazing on his brow'. Surely this means they cannot be much bigger than, say, an apricot. Does it say somewhere in Tolkien’s writings the size of the Silmarils?
I never have read any description of the Silmarils. (But yes, I know that doesn't mean Tolkien never wrote one. :)) But I remember there was a thread a while ago about the appearance of the Silmarils, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Fat middle]

good work, Cass!

i think 'tis said that the Silmarillion were about the size of an egg. but i don't what kind of egg :rolleyes:

[Sween]

I dont think that anyone would of seen the destruction of the two trees comming. Morgoth was jelious of the light and beauty of the similis and wished to posses them im sure he would of loved to have the two trees as his own but it just isnt feasiable to carry off 2 big trees into middle earth is it?

He loved the light and wished it to be his own and deny it to all save whom he chose with the stones he would do this but he had to destroy the trees and ruin the happiness of the valar and elves.

[Attalus]

I have always pictured the Silmarils as smaller than a hen's egg, perhaps more the size of a cherry-tomato or a large grape, i.e., about 25mm. Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow. Also, Beren clasped it in his hand, and it stayed there in Carcharost's belly.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Attalus
Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow.

*snerk!*

Yes, even with all his faults, I never imagined Fëanáro with bad taste...


Good point about Beren's hand in the belly of the wolf - his hand prob. had to be able to close around it.

[Fat middle]

i've been looking for that quote about eggs, and now i think i was wrong. Nimphelos, the great pearl that Cirdann gave to Thingol, was of the size of a dove's egg. I think memory betrayed me again :p

[Rían]

Now that's bugging me, because I have a (probably!) faulty memory of the Sils being compared in size to a plover's egg... *grabs books on the way out the door - will peruse while waiting for kids at school*

[Falagar]

Unfortunately the IMG-code is off here, but here's a link to how Tolkien drew the Silmarilli:
http://members.tripod.com/john.ohara/images/Pictures/TheSilmarils.jpg

[Wayfarer]

Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow. Feanor didn't. /Melkor/ Did. And Melkor, you may recall, was compared in size to a mountain.

I would say that yes, the size of an egg sounds right to me.

[Rían]

Melkor doesn't have any taste in jewelry design :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Feanor didn't.
And yes, he did - from the Sil, Of the Silmarils
...for though at great feasts Fëanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, at other times they were guarded close, locked in the deep chambers of his hoard in Tirion.

And the question remains - what type of egg? Hummingbird? (really cute eggs!!) Ostrich? (more Melkor's style, altho Beren's hand would have trouble closing around it) or somewhere in between?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Feanor didn't. /Melkor/ Did. And Melkor, you may recall, was compared in size to a mountain.

I would say that yes, the size of an egg sounds right to me.
But these he was not suffered to approach; for though at great feasts Fëanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, (...)
-From "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor"
(emphasis (sp?) added)


Edited: You beat me to it, RÃ*an

[Attalus]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Now that's bugging me, because I have a (probably!) faulty memory of the Sils being compared in size to a plover's egg... *grabs books on the way out the door - will peruse while waiting for kids at school* If so, for the Semipalmated Plover, it would be 33x22 mm. See this site: http://www.pma.edmonton.ab.ca/vexhibit/eggs/vexeggs/charadr/spiplo.htm.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Falagar
-Edited: You beat me to it, RÃ*an

Mwahahaha! Another one for the quote meister!! (mistress?)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Did Fëanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant?Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himself from the beginning?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Artanis
Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himslef from the beginning?
That's a hard question. It says that
For Fëanor begun to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, (...); he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own (...)
Which means that he had remembered it once, and that there was a time he didn't love them with a "greedy love". So I don't think he made them for himself, but because he wanted to test if he could do it. Not for anyone, just to see if he could...He couldn't know how they would turn out.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himslef from the beginning?

Very interesting question, Artanis. I'd say that surely there was something wrong from the very begining. I'm not sure how to explain it though.

Perhaps we can aply to the Silmarils the scheme of the Rings story. Tolkien stated that there was something wrong from the moment of their conception. Elves didn't want the rings to do evil things, but they wanted to keep the blessednes of Aman living in their beloved ME. So they create the rings: material things with what they could alter the material world, stopping the pass of time over it. They were breaking the rules of the world, and that was the begining of all the evil that would came later.

Something tells me that in the conception of the Silmarils things were similar. Annals of Aman says that he began to work in the Silmarils in 1449, a year before they were full-wrought. The author of the Annals believes that Melkor had no part in Feanor's instruction, for Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, and was eager and proud, working ever swiftly and alone, asking no aid and brooking no counsel. but love, and not pride had been the origin of his work:Greatly he loved gems, and he began to study how by the skill of his hand and mind he could make others greater and brighter than those hidden in the earth. and he made much study and many essays ere their fashioning could begin. What kind of study? was this study what led him by the wrong way?not until Sun passeth and the Moon falls shall it be known of what substance they were made Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...

After all, both rings and Silmarils reflect the idea of the original sin in christianism, whose core is that all evil came after men hear the voice of Satan. Melkor's voice was very dangerous...

[markedel]

Well the real details can be mixed up in the various mythologies. I haven't read HoME but one would think that some of the langauge is from older variants then others. Also, the idea of a golden age where great things were done never to be repeated are a common mythological theme.

[Falagar]

Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...
Perhaps :p I think it means that it shall be known when Fëanor "returns", he will tell what they were made of. Or Manwë/Eru will reveal it...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Perhaps :p I think it means that it shall be known when Fëanor "returns", he will tell what they were made of. Or Manwë/Eru will reveal it... That's a good explanation. Also I remember reading somewhere that the Silmarils will be broken and the light within will be used to rekindle The Two Trees.

This is what Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman, says about the Silmarils:Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence within the walls of this world could mar it or break it. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended Light of the Trees of Valinor which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the uttermost darkness the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it, and gave it back inhues more lovely than before.
Fat middle, where can I read about Nimphelos?

(I hate it when my typos are quoted - himslef indeed :rolleyes: :p )

[Fat middle]

From the Grey Annals

1300. Of the building of Menegroth.

$22. Now Melian had after the manner of the Maiar, the
people of Valinor, much foresight. And when two of the ages of
the Chaining of Melkor had passed, she counselled Thingol that
the Peace of Arda would not last for ever; and he therefore
bethought him how he should make for himself a kingly
dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to
awake again in Middle-earth. He called therefore upon the
Enfeng, the Longbeards of Belegost, whom he had friended,
and sought their aid and counsel. And they gave it willingly, for
they were unwearied in those days, and eager for new works.

And though the Dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held
themselves paid. For Melian taught them much wisdom, which they were eager to get; whereas Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Cirdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. And one there was great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as the starlight upon the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Enfeng prized it above a mountain of wealth.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...

Actually, the whole passage seems to me to be somewhat overwrought. How would anyone know anything after the end of the world? Except, presumably, in the afterlife.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps I’m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. Originally posted by Attalus
Actually, the whole passage seems to me to be somewhat overwrought. How would anyone know anything after the end of the world?From the prophecy of Mandos, as given in the Quenta Noldorinwa:Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Eärendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, aso that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them.On a side note: There was a question in one of the other Fëanor threads (there seem to be so many of them now) whether he (Fëanor) could be redeemed, and I think this quote says that he could.

Fat middle, thanks for the Nimphelos reference. Also, I'm still digesting your long post about the Fëanor and the Silmarils :)

[Rían]

I've always thought that Fëanor made the Silmarils because .... he wanted to. He loved gems, he got an idea of how to make gems, he fiddled around with it, then perfected it and made the Sils. I assume Fëanor used "the dews of Telperion and the rain that fell from Laurelin" that Varda stored in the "great vats like shining lakes" to make the Sils - "And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor".

Unless Varda had asked people to NOT take the dew/rain out of the vats, or unless Fëanor felt in his heart that it was wrong to take some without permission, I don't think anything was wrong at this point. I wonder if the dew/rain in the vats was ever used by anyone else for anything? Or if people would just walk by and look at the beautiful lakes? Was it 'hands off' at the lakes, or would people dip their hands in the beautiful water and let it fall between their fingers back into the lakes? Or throw some up into the air and watch it fall back - little droplets of light.... That must have been a beautiful sight!

I think most actions are neutral in themselves - there's nothing wrong with me sitting here having fun on Entmoot, unless I do it so much that my responsibilities suffer and I hurt others or myself (e.g., we eat at McDonalds every night because I don't make dinner 'cause I'm too busy selfishly Mooting, or I don't help the younger kids with their homework for the same reason, etc.) I just picture Fëanor getting this great idea and carrying it through, with no wrong motives at this point in time. Where the wrong comes in, IMO, is when he starts to love them with a greedy love, and that wrong attitude leads to all sorts of horrible choices and actions on his part later on down the road.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
From the prophecy of Mandos, as given in the Quenta Noldorinwa:
Artanis, what book is that in?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Artanis, what book is that in? HoME 4, The shaping of Middle-Earth.

[Rían]

thanks :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
What kind of study? was this study what led him by the wrong way?After all, both rings and Silmarils reflect the idea of the original sin in christianism, whose core is that all evil came after men hear the voice of Satan. Melkor's voice was very dangerous... So what I think you are saying, is that you don't entirely trust the author of the Annals when he states that Melkor didn't participate in any way in the making of the Silmarils. You suggest that Fëanor's studies prior to the fashioning of the gems did in some way corrupt him, perhaps by Melkor's influence, and made him 'fall', as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden. Is that right? It's an interesting thought.

I agree with RÃ*an also, that Fëanor's original idea was to make something beautiful, for the joy of it, as I believe was also the driving force behind the changes of the language of the Ñoldor. Maybe he also wanted to show off his skills, or even compete with the Valar and make things as beautiful as the Two Trees?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
So what I think you are saying, is that you don't entirely trust the author of the Annals when he states that Melkor didn't participate in any way in the making of the Silmarils. You suggest that Fëanor's studies prior to the fashioning of the gems did in some way corrupt him, perhaps by Melkor's influence, and made him 'fall', as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden. Is that right? It's an interesting thought.

Yes, that's the idea. Though Melkor's influence doesn't make Feanor less guilty of whatever he did.

See that in the rings plot Sauron is instructing Celebrimbor & co. as Melkor could have instructed Feanor with the Sils.

[Falagar]

Yes, that's the idea. Though Melkor's influence doesn't make Feanor less guilty of whatever he did.

See that in the rings plot Sauron is instructing Celebrimbor & co. as Melkor could have instructed Feanor with the Sils.
But Tolkien rejects this:
Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in the lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor, son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared as he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no councel from him.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Falagar
But Tolkien rejects this:

Nope. That's the author of the Quenta Silmarillion (Pengoloth, i think) not Tolkien.

Tolkien speaks in his letters and some other sources. In the Sil. we hear the story as was told by an elf (or by a Numenorean, if he had finished the transformation of the myths).

[Attalus]

Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? Though, apparently the making of jewels was a pastime of the Noldor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? He may have learned much from Aúle, and also from Mathan. And even if the Silmarils were unique, Galadriel was able to make the phial that she gave to Frodo. The phial had captured the light of Eärendil's star, as the Silmarils had captured the light of the Two Trees, and it also shone all by itself, also in the darkness.

[Attalus]

You know, I haven't thought of the Phial in a long time. When I first read the books, I felt like Galadriel had made the Phial for Frodo, expressly, like the night before, but read later that the song in my sig was referring to it. Had it been around a long time, like the Elessar? I wonder.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Attalus
Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? Though, apparently the making of jewels was a pastime of the Noldor. I doubt that Morgoth would have had any part in their making. Someone who desires the destructon of light so much, and is so deeply into the darkness, would surely not be able to contribute to the making of the Silmarilli, a kind of "ultimate light"?

[Earniel]

I agree, I don't think Morgoth had any hand in the creation of the Silmarils or in Fëanor's jewelmakingskills. But I remember reading somewhere (that's all I seem to do, don't I? I always remember reading something but never where. It's driving me spare! hey that rhymes... :rolleyes: )

As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught Fëanor though in reality Fëanor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined. :(

[Falagar]

As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught Fëanor though in reality Fëanor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined. :(
Was it this passage? :)
Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in the lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor, son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared as he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no councel from him.
From the Silmarillion, can't remember the chapters name (think it was "OF Fëanor and the Unchanging of Melkor")

[Earniel]

Yes! *hugs Falagar* Thank you! :D

*smacks herself on the forehead* Oh man, that's from the chapter I reviewed myself only a few weeks ago! :o *hides in the gloom under a rock in deep, deep shame* I'm so ashamed of my self.....

[Maedhros]

Bravo Cassiopea. I tip my hat to you.

feel that Fëanor was too hasty in confronting his half-brother, although no doubt the lies of Melkor fired the flame in his belly.
This might bring a little clarity to the discussion:
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas: Of The Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
§52e But even as he spoke, suddenly Fëanor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!' he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'
Why would the noble Fingolfin not give Fëanor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What Fëanor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.
Did Fëanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fëanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?
You could make the same cause with both Námo and Manwë. Did Námo knew that Finwë would be slained in Formenos by Morgoth, and if so, why didn't he do anything to stop it.
Is there any significance in the fact that three Silmarilli were made? Has it something to do with the three themes of Ilúvatar, or something else?
Could be, of course there could be said that a greater parallel exists between the Elven rings made by Celebrimbor and the Silmarils of Fëanor. Maybe Tolkien liked the number 3.
All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps I’m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. After all, the destruction the Silmarils caused, surely it would be a good idea to never real their substance, lest another tragedy occurs.
The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ñoldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ñoldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of Fëanor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.

[Falagar]

The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ñoldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ñoldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of Fëanor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.
I think Eru should hurry up...

[cassiopeia]

*Blushes* Thanks Maedhros, I was actually very nervous posting my introduction. :o
That's interesting about Galadriel's phial. Did she actually make it, and if so did she learn it from Aule or Mathan? I don't suppose the phial would be made of the same materials as the Silmarils, so does that mean there are two (at least) kinds of material that can catch light? Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

[Maedhros]

Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.
Maybe he could. After all his knowledge was great. It seems to me that in his perversion and downfall, he couldn't create things only mock. In a way he lost his originality. He bred dragons, orcs, etc.
Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept. ;) . I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils. I don't think Melkor had the ability to work with light. Darkness had been his domain, even since the Music. When the SIlmarils had been created, he lusted for them in the same way as he desired the dominion of Arda. He was unable to create anything himself, so he was left to steal and corrupt the creations of others. He also hated the Elves and held them responsible for his defeat and his long exile in the Void, and he was jealous of their life in bliss in Aman. To bereave them from the light of the Two Trees, to set them up against the Valar and steal the Silmarils was a delightful revengeOriginally posted by Maedhros
I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?O-o. Serious OT warning. :eek: Must ..... resist ...... to ..... answer ......

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
.....Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept. ;) . I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

[Sween]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Why would the noble Fingolfin not give Fëanor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What Fëanor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.

Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word. It would of been dangerous judgeing Feanors mood to make it an official matter of the Noldor making it look like Finglofin ment to userp the power of the Noldor even more

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sween
I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels
Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sween
i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word.

(Hey, I quoted Sween 2 times in a row!)

I agree - I think Fëanor overreacted in his suspicion (fueled by Melkor's lies).

What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why Finwë didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both Fëanor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone? Oh darn - this seems to be a topic anyway - no, it doesn't sound familiar. It doesn't sound likely to me, I think the dragons were too independent to be a product of Melkor. It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar. Then dragons would be evil, independent spirits that chose to be in alliance with Melkor, much the same way as Ungoliant.

What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why Finwë didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both Fëanor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?Perhaps he knew his sons too well to do that. Restraining Fëanor was an art mastered only by Nerdanel, and not for ever.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

Well, there is that whole thing about how Morgoth was perpetually trying to attain entrance, so to speak, into Manwe's realm (air). Wasn't it in an earlier thread that this came up? His efforts to 'create' creatures that could fly?

[Wayfarer]

It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar. The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it) and it is unlikely that dragons were either.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it) Well, the published Silmarillion at this point contradicts the Ainulindalë as it is written in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring:But Manwe Sulimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, and their wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of Darkness. and it is unlikely that dragons were either. Why is it unlikely?

[Attalus]

I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

[Maedhros]

Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.
That is a sad excuse. You should give the other part the opportunity to defend themselves. It's only fair.

[Earniel]

*shrugs* If you think so. I suppose I can't really get my point across but what I meant is: Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself? It wasn't like Fingolfin espected Finwë to immediatly condemn Fëanor. I see Fingolfin as a brother who sees his brother who's prone to hotheaded actions start some trouble and wishes to inform his father of it so that he can take action like a father and not like a king. It's more of a family affair, the council has little to do about it.

The point is that I think that Fingolfin wanted to deal with the case within the family, quietly and quickly without bringing it before the rest of the council where it was bound to go out of hand and spreads even more unrest.

[Artanis]

I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Attalus
I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

I agree with you.
Although he could not create or give life to creatures, is it possible that he could give the gift of speech? Perhaps dragons were simply creatures that he brought to his side and to whom he was able to give speech. Just a musing.:) There was discussion elsewhere of animals in ME that could speak (was it a raven or rook in The Hobbit?), and maybe dragons learned it in a similar way.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

Quite possible. I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.

[Maedhros]

Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself?
You need to be there in order to defend yourself. Fingolfin could have waited for his half brother to arrive and then make the complain to their father. Simple and the right thing to do.

[Earniel]

He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. :) But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Eärniel
He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. :) But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.
Of course you don't want to have your (hypothetical) brother in when you're complaining about him, but if your brother walks in on you while you're talking about him behind his back, of course he'll be mad. I would have been mad to, if I found someone talking about me behind my back, especially if it had been my stephbrother who wanted to take my place as the successor (sp?) of my father.

[Maedhros]

I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.
In the Shibboleth of Fëanor is stated more clearly, not in the Published Silmarillion.
I will probably post the quote later but in the Morgoth's Ring: Annals of Aman, there is a part in which Finwë says something like: As long as the ban last upon Fëanor my son, I will not meet my people nor those who rule in my place.
Ohhhhhhh.

[Artanis]

I believe this is the quote:One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor indeed came, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë, While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tuna, I hold myself unkinged, and will not meet my people, nor those that rule in my stead.' Fëanor came to the festival, met Fingolfin and they were reconciled.

[Attalus]

I was reading HoME 4- The shaping of Middle-Earth, and I found it interesting that the original name for Tirion-on-Tuna was Tun, on the hill Cor. So the Tun/Tuna name was going to be in there no matter what. I like Tirion-on-Cor better, myself. :p

[Finrod Felagund]

But, wouldn't Finwe have wanted to be with Feanor, and see his sons reconciled? Because he said he would not go to Tuna while Feanor was banned. But at this particular point, Feanor was allowed back. Why was Finwe so stupid. He should have gone along. If he had, he wouldn't have died!


A curse on the stiff necks of the elves.

[matthew]

You know, I think Cassiopela is wrong on the destruction of the sun and moon at the same time as the destruction of Arda. I mean, after all, they were created sortof in the middle of its history. I think I remember reading something about how at some the Silmarills will be gathered together and Yavanna will break them and with their light regrow the two trees. if so, I don't remember where I read it. In HoMe I think......

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps Well, I never thought of them being so large, just because it says this about after Beren had cut the Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.

From the puplished Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition,1977 As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a living lamp, but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

[Earniel]

A point that annoyed me this chapter is finding out the Valar never told the Eldar of the coming of Men. It was a stupid thing to keep that from them and not just because Morgoth could then use it to drive a wedge between the Valar and the Noldor. But what was any good reason to keep it a secret in the first place? I can't think of one. They were teaching the Eldar pretty much everything else. Why withold this info?

Just think of the possibilities if the Valar had told the Elves of Men and that they were to be their teachers. What if the Eldar had loved the idea? What if they decided that with the help of the Valar they could return to Middle-earth and help heal the hurts there in order to make everything ready of the Second Kindred's arrival? They could have kicked those Valarin lazy butts in gear to take up the task they had so long ago abandonned.

There would still be Melkor, waiting like the snake in Paradise, but he wouldn't have been able to min this particular vein of potential discontent. And Middle-earth would have been is no much a better state, even if only until Melkor found another wedge to hammer on.

Which brings me to the following, why were the Valar so unconcerned witht the fate of Men? they went to war over the idea that the Eldar would be awakening in a dangerous place but after Melkor's capture, they left Middle-earth in shambles, asleep and full of monsters, fully knowing the Secondborn would be arriving afterwards. Why didn't Ilúvatar remind them of their task either?

[Valandil]

I wonder if they thought they were not supposed to tell. They might have been uncertain what plans Eru Illuvatar had for the interactions of the two... and didn't want to pre-empt anything.

While on the surface you have a point that they seemed to care more about preparing the earth for Elves than for Men - I think this might just be about them gradually withdrawing themselves further and further from the concerns of Middle Earth as time passed by. Whether from weariness, resignation, or something else... they just made themselves less involved the more time went by.

[Earniel]

True, the fact that they were even less concerned about Middle-earth after bringing a good deal of Elves to Aman might indeed be a good indication that they were slowly losing interest and involvement. While Yavanna and Oromë often urged action before the Awakening of the Elves, this seems wholy absent after the Elves' March west.

It can hardly be that they thought Men could deal with all the monsters and dormant nature better than the Elves. I guess us mortal Men just aren't as shiny as them Eldar. :p