Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion > The Silmarillion Project
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-02-2003, 03:02 AM   #1
cassiopeia
Viggoholic
 
cassiopeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Chapter 7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Overview of Chapter 7

This chapter of the Silmarillion encompasses the making of the Silmarils by Fanor, the lust of Melkor for them, the lies spread among the elves by Melkor, the banishment of Fanor from Tirion for threatening his half-brother Fingolfin, and Melkor's departure from Valinor after Fanor cast him away after perceiving his lust for the Silmarils.

General Comments

I feel that Fanor was too hasty in confronting his half-brother, although no doubt the lies of Melkor fired the flame in his belly. I was surprised Fanor actually listened to Melkor, since Melkor had already committed evil deeds and had spent three ages in bondage. I think the Valar were right in banishing Fanor from Tirion, for the lies of Melkor and his wroth for his half-brother would only grow in Fanors heart. Although it is all too easy in retrospect, I think that Fanors actions in this chapter all but make it a certainty that Melkor would wreak the destruction of the Two Trees, and steal the Silmarils.

Links

I did not have the opportunity to consult any of The History of Middle-earth. I believe (correct me if Im wrong) that some relevant material can be found in The Book of Lost Tales Part I and The War of the Jewels. I did happen to find some pretty pictures:

Map of Aman: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3465/map_aman.jpg
Map of Valinor: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/3465/map_valinor.jpg
Morgoth: http://www.nightrunner.com/cgi-bin/s...y?id=1923&pn=0

(I just checked these links, and the two map links are not working at the moment. Hopefully they will be working soon.)

Discussion Points

In this post I will raise some points that I thought were interesting. I would invite others to raise points which they think are relevant.

It was said that:

Quote:
For Fanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable.
Did Fanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?

Quote:
As three great Jewels they were in form.
Is there any significance in the fact that three Silmarilli were made? Has it something to do with the three themes of Ilvatar, or something else?

The next paragraph says:

Quote:
But not until the End, when Fanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made.
All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps Im wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. After all, the destruction the Silmarils caused, surely it would be a good idea to never real their substance, lest another tragedy occurs.

More:

Quote:
And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them. The heart of Fanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made.
We know the Silmarils ended up in the sky, the sea, and the earth in the end. Yet Mandos says the fates of Arda. This seems to me to foreshadow a time in the future when the Silmarils will again play a role in the fates of the creatures of Arda. Will the Silmarilli play some part in the destiny of the world? How will this occur? Will the Silmarils lost in the sea and earth be found again?

*continued next post*
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
cassiopeia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 03:04 AM   #2
cassiopeia
Viggoholic
 
cassiopeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
*continued*

The next paragraph:

Quote:
Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart.
Why did Melkor lust for the Silmarils? It says earlier in The Silmarillion that Melkor desires light, but I always thought light as good. Did they represent power? Was it because he hated Fanor so much? Or did he think they would make a pretty addition to his iron crown?

I've always wondered about the size of the Silmarils. It says that Fanor 'would wear them, blazing on his brow'. Surely this means they cannot be much bigger than, say, an apricot. Does it say somewhere in Tolkiens writings the size of the Silmarils?

Quote:
Small truth was there in this, and little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men; but many of the Noldor believed, or half believed, the evil words.
When have the Valar ever tried to sway the wills of Men?

Quote:
Then hate overcame Fanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in E.
In my dictionary, mightiest means Having or showing great strength or force or intensity. But if Melkor is the mightiest of E, how did Tulkas cast Melkor upon his face and chain him up, as seen in chapter three?

All right, that's all have to say in my introduction. Discuss away!
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
cassiopeia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 10:35 AM   #3
Erniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Erniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Nn in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 13,592
heehee I'm first yipie!

Quote:
Did Fanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?
I think there is some logic in assuming that the Trees (since their kind is mortal) could die. I'm not sure if Fanor actually knew that the Trees were going to be destroyed. Since he had no hand in creating the Trees I suppose he could take a more objective view than with the Silmarils. But since he was the maker of them, I think that even if he had had any foreshadow of the things the jewels would cause, he did not want to see it. He loved those jewels, I don't think he ever thought that the beauty of the Simarils could cause trouble.

Quote:
We know the Silmarils ended up in the sky, the sea, and the earth in the end. Yet Mandos says the fates of Arda. This seems to me to foreshadow a time in the future when the Silmarils will again play a role in the fates of the creatures of Arda. Will the Silmarilli play some part in the destiny of the world? How will this occur? Will the Silmarils lost in the sea and earth be found again?
I assume that at the ending of the world all three will be found and united. At least I remember reading something like that somewhere. And that they will be broken and that their light will be used to revive the Trees.

Quote:
Why did Melkor lust for the Silmarils? It says earlier in The Silmarillion that Melkor desires light, but I always thought light as good. Did they represent power? Was it because he hated Fanor so much? Or did he think they would make a pretty addition to his iron crown?
I think he wanted them because they were unique and irreplacable. The Silmarils seemed to wake a desire in nearly everybody who saw them.

Quote:
I've always wondered about the size of the Silmarils. It says that Fanor 'would wear them, blazing on his brow'. Surely this means they cannot be much bigger than, say, an apricot. Does it say somewhere in Tolkiens writings the size of the Silmarils?
I never have read any description of the Silmarils. (But yes, I know that doesn't mean Tolkien never wrote one. ) But I remember there was a thread a while ago about the appearance of the Silmarils, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Last edited by Erniel : 05-02-2003 at 10:36 AM.
Erniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 11:29 AM   #4
Fat middle
Mootis per forum
Administrator
 
Fat middle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
good work, Cass!

i think 'tis said that the Silmarillion were about the size of an egg. but i don't what kind of egg
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.
Fat middle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 11:53 AM   #5
Sween
im quite stupid
 
Sween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
Posts: 2,058
I dont think that anyone would of seen the destruction of the two trees comming. Morgoth was jelious of the light and beauty of the similis and wished to posses them im sure he would of loved to have the two trees as his own but it just isnt feasiable to carry off 2 big trees into middle earth is it?

He loved the light and wished it to be his own and deny it to all save whom he chose with the stones he would do this but he had to destroy the trees and ruin the happiness of the valar and elves.
__________________
Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot
Sween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 02:43 PM   #6
Attalus
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
 
Attalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,034
I have always pictured the Silmarils as smaller than a hen's egg, perhaps more the size of a cherry-tomato or a large grape, i.e., about 25mm. Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow. Also, Beren clasped it in his hand, and it stayed there in Carcharost's belly.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici.
Attalus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 04:45 PM   #7
Ran
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Ran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,143
Quote:
Originally posted by Attalus
Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow.
*snerk!*

Yes, even with all his faults, I never imagined Fanro with bad taste...


Good point about Beren's hand in the belly of the wolf - his hand prob. had to be able to close around it.
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lm! Aur entuluva!

Last edited by Ran : 05-02-2003 at 04:46 PM.
Ran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 05:06 PM   #8
Fat middle
Mootis per forum
Administrator
 
Fat middle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
i've been looking for that quote about eggs, and now i think i was wrong. Nimphelos, the great pearl that Cirdann gave to Thingol, was of the size of a dove's egg. I think memory betrayed me again
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.
Fat middle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 05:31 PM   #9
Ran
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Ran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,143
Now that's bugging me, because I have a (probably!) faulty memory of the Sils being compared in size to a plover's egg... *grabs books on the way out the door - will peruse while waiting for kids at school*
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lm! Aur entuluva!
Ran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 06:00 PM   #10
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Unfortunately the IMG-code is off here, but here's a link to how Tolkien drew the Silmarilli:
__________________
Fanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanro 'till the Last battle.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:17 PM   #11
Wayfarer
The Insufferable
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
Quote:
Surely, even Feanor wouldn't have bound three jewels the size of eggs to his brow.
Feanor didn't. /Melkor/ Did. And Melkor, you may recall, was compared in size to a mountain.

I would say that yes, the size of an egg sounds right to me.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:32 PM   #12
Ran
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Ran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,143
Melkor doesn't have any taste in jewelry design
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lm! Aur entuluva!
Ran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:35 PM   #13
Ran
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Ran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,143
Quote:
Originally posted by Wayfarer
Feanor didn't.
And yes, he did - from the Sil, Of the Silmarils
Quote:
...for though at great feasts Fanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, at other times they were guarded close, locked in the deep chambers of his hoard in Tirion.
And the question remains - what type of egg? Hummingbird? (really cute eggs!!) Ostrich? (more Melkor's style, altho Beren's hand would have trouble closing around it) or somewhere in between?
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lm! Aur entuluva!

Last edited by Ran : 05-02-2003 at 07:38 PM.
Ran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:40 PM   #14
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Quote:
Originally posted by Wayfarer
Feanor didn't. /Melkor/ Did. And Melkor, you may recall, was compared in size to a mountain.

I would say that yes, the size of an egg sounds right to me.
Quote:
But these he was not suffered to approach; for though at great feasts Fanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, (...)
-From "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor"
(emphasis (sp?) added)


Edited: You beat me to it, Ran
__________________
Fanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 05-02-2003 at 07:42 PM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:44 PM   #15
Attalus
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
 
Attalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,034
Quote:
Originally posted by Ran
Now that's bugging me, because I have a (probably!) faulty memory of the Sils being compared in size to a plover's egg... *grabs books on the way out the door - will peruse while waiting for kids at school*
If so, for the Semipalmated Plover, it would be 33x22 mm. See this site: http://www.pma.edmonton.ab.ca/vexhib...dr/spiplo.htm.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici.
Attalus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2003, 07:50 PM   #16
Ran
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Ran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,143
Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
-Edited: You beat me to it, Ran
Mwahahaha! Another one for the quote meister!! (mistress?)
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lm! Aur entuluva!
Ran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2003, 03:46 AM   #17
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Re: The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Quote:
Originally posted by cassiopeia
Did Fanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant?
Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himself from the beginning?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 05-03-2003 at 01:49 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2003, 10:08 AM   #18
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Re: Re: The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himslef from the beginning?
That's a hard question. It says that
Quote:
For Fanor begun to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, (...); he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own (...)
Which means that he had remembered it once, and that there was a time he didn't love them with a "greedy love". So I don't think he made them for himself, but because he wanted to test if he could do it. Not for anyone, just to see if he could...He couldn't know how they would turn out.
__________________
Fanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 10:11 AM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2003, 11:21 AM   #19
Fat middle
Mootis per forum
Administrator
 
Fat middle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
Re: Re: The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
Another interesting question is: Did he originally make the Silmarils for the good of all in Aman, to share them with everyone else, and only later came to regard them as his very own? Or did he make them only to himslef from the beginning?
Very interesting question, Artanis. I'd say that surely there was something wrong from the very begining. I'm not sure how to explain it though.

Perhaps we can aply to the Silmarils the scheme of the Rings story. Tolkien stated that there was something wrong from the moment of their conception. Elves didn't want the rings to do evil things, but they wanted to keep the blessednes of Aman living in their beloved ME. So they create the rings: material things with what they could alter the material world, stopping the pass of time over it. They were breaking the rules of the world, and that was the begining of all the evil that would came later.

Something tells me that in the conception of the Silmarils things were similar. Annals of Aman says that he began to work in the Silmarils in 1449, a year before they were full-wrought. The author of the Annals believes that Melkor had no part in Feanor's instruction,
Quote:
for Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, and was eager and proud, working ever swiftly and alone, asking no aid and brooking no counsel.
but love, and not pride had been the origin of his work:
Quote:
Greatly he loved gems, and he began to study how by the skill of his hand and mind he could make others greater and brighter than those hidden in the earth.
Quote:
and he made much study and many essays ere their fashioning could begin.
What kind of study? was this study what led him by the wrong way?
Quote:
not until Sun passeth and the Moon falls shall it be known of what substance they were made
Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...

After all, both rings and Silmarils reflect the idea of the original sin in christianism, whose core is that all evil came after men hear the voice of Satan. Melkor's voice was very dangerous...
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.
Fat middle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2003, 11:32 AM   #20
markedel
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Queen's
Posts: 1,245
Well the real details can be mixed up in the various mythologies. I haven't read HoME but one would think that some of the langauge is from older variants then others. Also, the idea of a golden age where great things were done never to be repeated are a common mythological theme.
__________________
"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"
markedel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2012, The Tolkien Trail