Favorite Elf-King?

[Aden]

My favorite elven king is Gil-Galad the last high king of noldor after Turgon's death.

[macmico]

:confused: this is a tough one between fingolfin and finrod felagund.

finrod because he sacrificed himself to keep his oath,

fingolfin because well the whole of angband hid from his onset when he challenged morgoth

cool kings of valour:D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by macmico
:confused: this is a tough one between fingolfin and finrod felagund.

finrod because he sacrificed himself to keep his oath,

fingolfin because well the whole of angband hid from his onset when he challenged morgoth

cool kings of valour:D
um... let me help you on this one... Finrod. ;) Definitely Finrod. :D

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by macmico
:confused: this is a tough one between fingolfin and finrod felagund.

finrod because he sacrificed himself to keep his oath,

fingolfin because well the whole of angband hid from his onset when he challenged morgoth

cool kings of valour:D

choose Fingolfin...he looks more like Feanaro!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
choose Fingolfin...he looks more like Feanaro! Is more like him in behaviour too.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
Is more like him in behaviour too.

yes they were both very fiery!;)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
yes they were both very fiery!;) Feanor was very spiteful, and put his own ego ahead of the interests of the Noldor, whom he ruled. That is not the way an Elf-King should act. :)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Feanor was very spiteful, and put his own ego ahead of the interests of the Noldor, whom he ruled. That is not the way an Elf-King should act. :)

but he was soooo sexy! and his hands were never at rest!:D

[Artanis]

Maybe it's time to revive the 'Men of the Sil' thread. :D

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Artanis
Maybe it's time to revive the 'Men of the Sil' thread. :D
So we can talk about Beleg? *Notices Artanis' location, hesitates, then grins*

Favourite Elf-King? What's that guy's name again? Finned...Finrooo...Fitrod? Hmm. ;)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
Maybe it's time to revive the 'Men of the Sil' thread. :D

:D I second that!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
:D I second that! Me too. what a hilarious thread.

[brownjenkins]

i'd have to say Finrod and Fëanor, they seemed to be the most "human" characters to me... Finrod is an obvious choice, his selflessness on may occasions, bravery, etc.

Fëanor, while he certainly had his faults, is someone i can understand, he seemed to have a passion for life greater than any other, and i think his actions were more inspired by a yearning to be free (the "i'd rather rule in hell than serve in heaven" thing) and grief for his father's death... everyone assumes that he was solely driven by a desire to get the silmarils back, but i think revenge for his father's death played a big, if not even bigger part in his decision (after all, he had already lost his mother, and it is easy to see how he might blame himself for that loss, as well as the loss of his father)... plus, if not for Fëanor, one would have to assume that all the lands outside of valinor would still be in the thrall of morgroth

[Finrod Felagund]

Hmmm...I dunno...I guess Id have to say (again!) Finrod Felagund!!!!!!!!!!!

[Attalus]

Well, Gil-Galad is more mysterious, but Finrod was selfless and upright, so I guess I'll go with him. Darn it, why didn't JRRT finish The Fall of Gil-Galad?

[Ellesime Ganascient]

i love Turgon
just love the hidded city of Gondolin
if only maeglin... grrrrrr !
But even Finrod is really cool !

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ellesime Ganascient
i love Turgon
just love the hidded city of Gondolin
if only maeglin... grrrrrr !
But even Finrod is really cool !
Even? SGH is not going to like this. :D ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
Even? SGH is not going to like this. :D ;) No kidding. What is with this even stuff? We all know that Finrod was the coolest. Turgon, well, he was a bit confused most of the time.:D

[Turgon_Turambar]

It can only be Fingolfin my daddy:D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
No kidding. What is with this even stuff? We all know that Finrod was the coolest. Turgon, well, he was a bit confused most of the time.:D

Turgon... he was like the 'ostrich' of the Elf Kings, wasn't he?:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
Turgon... he was like the 'ostrich' of the Elf Kings, wasn't he?:D Exactly.:)

[Artanis]

Neneh. You have to love Turukáno for the last stand at the white tower.

Findekáno the valiant is also a favourite.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Neneh. You have to love Turgon for the last stand at the white tower.

Fingon the valiant is also a favourite. Well, next to Finrod, Fingon has always been my favorite.

[Artanis]

Good girl. :)

Hehe, I edited the names while you were posting. Those Quenya names are so beautiful.

[Turgon_Turambar]

I will have no bad mouthing of Turgon. what would you have wanted him to do??? come running out of Gondolin with a big sign on top of his head saying IM THE KING OF THE NOLDOR MORGOTH!!!! COME AND KILL ME!!!!!!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
I will have no bad mouthing of Turgon. what would you have wanted him to do??? come running out of Gondolin with a big sign on top of his head saying IM THE KING OF THE NOLDOR MORGOTH!!!! COME AND KILL ME!!!!!!! LOL! Well, he didn't exactly make the wisest choice in the end, now did he?:p

[brownjenkins]

at the risk of eternal wrath from SGH, one could say that from a purely "do what is best for your people" point of view, Finrod's oath to Barahir and subsequent decision to personally fulfill it may have not been the best decision either

one can not doubt his heart... but i think he may have missed the bigger picture at that point... and his people certainly could have used his guidance later

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
at the risk of eternal wrath from SGH, one could say that from a purely "do what is best for your people" point of view, Finrod's oath to Barahir and subsequent decision to personally fulfill it may have not been the best decision either

one can not doubt his heart... but i think he may have missed the bigger picture at that point... and his people certainly could have used his guidance later Finrod's choice to swear an oath of abiding friendship and aid to Barahir and his kin, came from a life saving action that occurred on the battlefield years before. Finrod had no way of knowing when or if he would be called upon to fulfill the oath. When he was called upon, should he have been dishonorable and not aided Beren? Also, once the quest to fulfill the oath was revealed to his people, they were hardly receptive or supportive of their king. Not a very loyal lot i'd say, inspite of Feanor's sons influence when you consider all the years that Finrod as their king did do what was best for them.

[brownjenkins]

i agree... i was just comparing this with turgon... his downfall was trusting his grandson, also a very honorable sentiment

i understand the oath, but i think that during the beren incident finrod should have anticipated trouble with celegorm and curufin and taken care of them first... if this was done it is likely that he could have put together a much larger party to accompany beren and he may have not had to personally take part in it... or if he did, he may not have perished

we do see this theme over and over again, the downfall of the great a result of being too trusting (even the valar made this mistake with melkor)... it doesn't make turgon and finrod bad rulers, just "human"

[Sister Golden Hair]

Human?:D Well, I believe Turgon's downfall was due to his pride more than anything. I would be interested in hearing how you think Finrod could have taken care of Feanor's sons at that point. Remember, they came to Nargothrond for refuge with many of their people and swelloed its strength. Finrod tells Beren that they had won a strong rule in the kingdom.

[Maedhros]

If you examine Turgon's rôle in ME, he is the perfect example of someone who only acted when it was convinient for him to do so.

From the Published Silmarillion
The field was lost; but still Húrin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'

but then we have ........
From the Wanderings of Húrin
Then Húrin looked up to the grey sky, thinking that by fortune he might once more descry the Eagles, as he had done long ago in his youth. But he saw only the shadows blown from the East, and clouds swirling about the inaccessible peaks;
and wind hissed over the stones. But the watch of the Great Eagles was now redoubled, and they marked Húrin well, far below, forlorn in the failing light. And straightaway Sorontar himself, since the tidings seemed great, brought word to Turgon.
But Turgon said: 'Nay! This is past belief! Unless Morgoth sleeps. Ye were mistaken.'
'Nay, not so,' answered Sorontar. 'If the Eagles of Manwë were wont to err thus, Lord, your hiding would have been in vain.'
'Then your words bode ill,' said Turgon; 'for they can mean only that even Húrin Thalion hath surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My heart is shut.' But when he had dismissed Sorontar, Turgon sat long in thought, and he was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin. And he opened his heart, and he sent to the Eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him, if they could, to Gondolin. But it was too late, and they saw him never again in light or in shadow.


Now this is convenient.

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Jewels: Wanderings of Húrin
For Húrin stood at last in despair before the stem silence of the Echoriad, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red. Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he cursed the pitiless land: 'hard as the hearts of Elves and Men'. And he stood at last upon a great stone, and spreading wide his arms, looking towards Gondolin, he called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon! Remember the Fen of Serech!' And again: 'Turgon! Húrin calls you. O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?'
No, Turgon will not hear you, Húrin Thalion, even though you saved him in the Nirnaeth.:(

[brownjenkins]

turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader

on finrod... he was a victim of some tough circumstances, but leaving your people, for whatever reason, especially in times of turmoil is never a good thing... maybe he should have done some more considering before letting celegorm and curufin's people in in the first place (i doubt that turgon would have let them waltz in if they had come to his door... or at least he would have instituted some strong safeguards to keep their power in check)... finrod was much too trusting

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader

on finrod... he was a victim of some tough circumstances, but leaving your people, for whatever reason, especially in times of turmoil is never a good thing... maybe he should have done some more considering before letting celegorm and curufin's people in in the first place (i doubt that turgon would have let them waltz in if they had come to his door... or at least he would have instituted some strong safeguards to keep their power in check)... finrod was much too trusting Turgon vitually turned his back on his people, (the Noldor) after the Nrrnaeth. Also, his defiance toward the messengers of Ulmo at the end was a foolish choice that was not beneficial to the people of Gondolin.

I don't think Finrod was too trusting. I do think he was kind though. You must remember also, that Finrod's policy of secrecy was not the same as Turgon's. Although Nargothrond was hidden, or at least the underground fortress, the realm itself extended far and wide. The largest realm in all of Beleriand. Finrod accepted Celegorm and Curufin and their people in his kingdom as his kin. He was friendly with Maglor and Maedhros aswell. Up to the point of him revealing the quest of the Silmaril, he had no reason to not accept them, or to bannish them. He tells Beren that they showed friendship to him in every need. I am sure that Finrod, though kind, was not off his guard with them, but up to that point, he had no reason to take any action against them.

[brownjenkins]

fair enough, i didn't mean to imply that turgon was better, he just had different shortcomings from a leadership point of view... i think all the elves that came to beleriand can be faulted as having too much pride, but the topic is "favorite" elf-king and not "best" (and as i posted earlier, finrod is one of my favorites too :) )... though if i was to choose the best, i'd probably go with finarfin... since he was the only one wise enough to say no to fëanor in the beginning

[Sister Golden Hair]

i think all the elves that came to beleriand can be faulted as having too much pride Not Finrod.:p :D

[Falagar]

Turgon vitually turned his back on his people, (the Noldor) after the Nrrnaeth. Also, his defiance toward the messengers of Ulmo at the end was a foolish choice that was not beneficial to the people of Gondolin.

Can you blame him? What could he have done to help the Noldor? If he sent out people to aid the rest, chanses were that they would never return and probably give Morgoth his hiding-place (and thus the last hope be destroyed).
He could try open war, and be crushed. He could try a guerrillia (sp?) war, with the same result.

Finrod also 'abandoned' the Noldor, and did less than Turgon to aid them (if I remember correctly, a while ago since I read the SIlm.).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Finrod also 'abandoned' the Noldor, and did less than Turgon to aid them (if I remember correctly, a while ago since I read the SIlm.). Well, since you brought it up, how about some examples?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, since you brought it up, how about some examples?
If I remember correctly (as I said previously, a while since I read the Silm! :p) Finrod also 'hid' in Nargothrond, and he didn't even come to the Arnoediad.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
If I remember correctly (as I said previously, a while since I read the Silm! :p) Finrod also 'hid' in Nargothrond, and he didn't even come to the Arnoediad. Give me a break. Finrod fought bravely in the wars of Beleriand. He was dead at the time of the Arnoediad, and Orodreth sent a small party. He did not hide in Nargothrond, but built an underground fortress and palace of defence as he was instructed to do so by Ulmo.:p

[Falagar]

*smacks head with frying pan*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
*smacks head with frying pan* Would you like to borrow my big stick? :D

[brownjenkins]

SGH
Not Finrod.

as i said before, i think all the elves who heard the words of mandos and decided to continue on can be faulted as having too much pride... i think finrod was certainly the most likeable elf-king, but he was far from perfect

[Maedhros]

turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader
The best interest of his people?
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
Then the lord of the house of the Mole played upon the one weakness of Turgon, saying:" Lo! O King, the city of Gondolin contains a wealth of jewels and metals and stuffs and of things wrought by the hands of the Gnomes to surpassing beauty, and all these thy lords -- more brave meseems than wise -- would abandon to the Foe. Even should victory be thine upon the plain thy city will be sacked and the Balrogs get hence with a measureless booty"; and Turgon groaned, for Meglin had known his great love for the wealth and loveliness of that burg upon Amon Gwareth.
Yes, for the best interest of his people.

[brownjenkins]

if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed

are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changedBut it belongs in the picture, the Fall of Gondolin in the Lost Tales is the only account that we have. are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?I think Turgon had to make a very diffucult decision there. IMO it was sensible of him to be suspicious, it wasn't so unlikely that Húrin should have been enthralled by Morgoth. Turgon was after all responsible for the safety of his people. And he did reach the right conclusion in the end, but unfortunately it was too late.

Turgon's Fault with capital F was not to heed Ulmo's advice. But he repented and defended his city and his people valiantly, paying his debt. I think people who err, but still want to do the right thing and struggle with themselves to achieve it, are loveable and far more interesting than those who always seem to do everything right. Perfect people are booooring.

[Falagar]

Turgon did a good job protecting his people, until the end. And I think he did it not only because of the beauty of his city, but also because he feared for the life of his people (if Morgoth discovered them they wouldn't stand a chanse).

[Maedhros]

if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed
There are tales and there are Tales. Please tell me of a latter account of the Fall of Gondolin that is not in the Book of Lost Tales II. Something that makes it outdated, please.
As Artanis was posted, there is none.
are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?
ibid.
But Turgon said: "Evil have I brought upon the Flower of the Plain in despite of Ulmo, and now he leaveth it to wither in the fire. Lo! hope is no more in my heart for my city of loveliness, but the children of the Noldoli shall not be worsted for ever."
Wasn't it because of the deeds of Húrin and Huor and their men that Turgon was able to return to Gondolin. Would it be correct to say that if it weren't for Thalion the Steadfast that there would be no Gondolin to talk about? Can you imagine if Morgoth captured a Gondolindrim an obtained the information about Gondolin?
What was Húrin's reward for saving Gondolin?
From Wanderings of Húrin
When Húrin stood again in the high places he descried far away amid the clouds the peaks of the Crisaegrim, and he remembered Turgon; and his heart desired to come again to the Hidden Realm, if he could, for there at least he would be remembered with honour. He had heard naught of the things that had come to pass in Gondolin, and knew not that Turgon now hardened his heart against wisdom and pity, and allowed no one either to enter or to go forth for any cause whatsoever.
But when it was convenient for Turgon he did listen to Húrin:
Published Silmarillion
Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
And what about the torment that Húrin suffered in Angband? Why is it that Turgon's excuse is that bringing Húrin to Gondolin would have given him the location of the city, but what about all of the time that Húrin spend in Angband with his torment, and he didn't yield?
Now Turgon was very ungrateful. He's my favorite ungrateful ñoldorian king.:(

[Falagar]

But what if the spies of Morgoth had seen the Eagles bring Húrin to Gondolin (as they surely would have done, since they followed him)?

[Maedhros]

But what if the spies of Morgoth had seen the Eagles bring Húrin to Gondolin (as they surely would have done, since they followed him)?
Of course that would have happened.
But what if Húrin had told Morgoth what he knew about Gondolin a loooooooooong time ago?

[brownjenkins]

húrin was being watched at the time, in fact, you could argue that he should have expected this to be the case, so in some ways it was ungrateful of him to even approach gondolin... wasn't this the event that gave melkor the general vicinity in which to look?

[brownjenkins]

i terms of the lost tales version... this was written around 1917, while the one from the silmarillion dates to around 1930 (christopher says as much in lost tales 2)... granted, the silmarillion version was never really completed by jrr and lacks in detail in many ways, but it represents a more modern working of the general themes

[Artanis]

Do you mean the Quenta Noldorinwa? IIRC, all it does is to give a very short résumé, and it even refers to the Fall of Gondolin from the Tales.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
But when it was convenient for Turgon he did listen to Húrin:But you can't really blame Turgon for following the advice of Húrin and Huor there. It wasn't only convenient, it was sensible. Turgon was at that time become High King of the Noldor, and Hurin was right in that Morgoth had always feared him.
Now Turgon was very ungrateful. He's my favorite ungrateful ñoldorian king.:( Yes, he was ungrateful to begin with, but he did change his mind.

brownjenkins, I think you're right in that it was unwise of Húrin to go to Echoriath and seek for Gondolin. Unwise, but understandable - after all these years of torment, to seek some peace for a little while.

[Maedhros]

but Bauglir said: 'O bravest of Men,
'tis fate unfitting for thus fellhanded
warrior warfain that to worthless friends
his sword he should sell, who seek no more
to free him from fetters or his fall avenge.
While shrinking in the shadows they shake fearful
in the hungry hills hiding outcast
their league belying, lurking faithless,
he by evil lot in everlasting
dungeons droopeth doomed to torment
and anguish endless. That thy arms unchained
I had fainer far should a falchion keen
or axe with edge eager flaming
wield in warfare where the wind bloweth
the banners of battle -- such a brand as might
in my sounding smithies on the smitten anvil
of glowing steel to glad thy soul
be forged and fashioned, yea, and fair harness
and mail unmatched -- than that marred with flails
my mercy waiving thou shouldst moan enchained
neath the brazen Balrogs' burning scourges:
who art worthy to win reward and honour
as a captain of arms when cloven is mail
and shields are shorn, when they shake the hosts
of their foes like fire in fell onset.
Lo! receive my service; forswear hatred,
ancient enmity thus ill-counselled --
I am a mild master who remembers well
his servants' deeds. A sword of terror
thy hand should hold, and a high lordship
as Bauglir's champion, chief of Balrogs,
to lead o'er the lands my loud armies,
whose royal array I already furnish;
on Turgon the troll (who turned to flight
and left thee alone, now leaguered fast
in waterless wastes and weary mountains)
my wrath to wreak, and on redhanded
robber-Gnomes, rebels, and roaming Elves,
that forlorn witless the Lord of the World
defy in their folly -- they shall feel my might.
I will bid men unbind thee, and thy body comfort!
Go follow their footsteps with fire and steel,
with thy sword go search their secret dwellings;
when in triumph victorious thou returnest hither,
I have hoards unthought-of' -- but Hurin Thalion
suffered no longer silent wordless;
through clenched teeth in clinging pain,
'O accursed king', cried unwavering,
'thy hopes build not so high, Bauglir;
no tool am I for thy treasons vile,
who tryst nor troth ever true holdest--
seek traitors elsewhere.'


húrin was being watched at the time, in fact, you could argue that he should have expected this to be the case, so in some ways it was ungrateful of him to even approach gondolin... wasn't this the event that gave melkor the general vicinity in which to look?
Rubbish. Was it ungrateful for Húrin to resist all of that time in Angband, not only at his expense but that of his family too? Wasn't Húrin the one who by his actions saved Gondolin all of that time? And after 28 years of suffering in Angband you call him ungrateful. Unbelilable and sad.
Was he ungrateful when he saved Gondolin too?

granted, the silmarillion version was never really completed by jrr and lacks in detail in many ways, but it represents a more modern working of the general themes
Jeje, what Silmarillion version? The one published by CT?

[brownjenkins]

Jeje, what Silmarillion version? The one published by CT?

yes... so many of jrrt's conceptions were changed after the writing of lost tales that i think it is a mistake to use any of them as an authorative source... it may be that if tolkien had done a final rewrite of turgon's life that he may have painted him in the same light, we'll never know... but we do know that many characters developed substantially different personalities and histories when he did revist them... so i prefer to stick with the latter impressions, even if they may be less complete... it is certainly possible that he meant it to be that way

on hurin and turgon... in my eyes these characters are not black and white (in fact, none of them are, which is why they are interesting, as Artanis pointed out)

i think hurin made a mistake by approaching gondolin after being freed... does this make him evil? no... is it an understandable mistake? yes... is it ungrateful, maybe i was a bit too harsh, though i believe his not ever returning (or at least revealing it's location, which he did do) was a condition of his release from the city the first time... was this an oath? i don't remember exactly

either way, it was not the wisest move on hurin's part, but understandable under the circumstances, and i can not blame turgon for turning aside to save his city and his people from discovery

besides, if turgon let him in, who would have killed that nasty little mîm? ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
as i said before, i think all the elves who heard the words of mandos and decided to continue on can be faulted as having too much pride... i think finrod was certainly the most likeable elf-king, but he was far from perfect Well, I have never claimed he was perfect. I would like you to point out though an instance of pride in him, and I will be more than willing to concede.

[Falagar]

I think I am going to change my mind: Finrod is now officially on my top-three list of Elves.

1. Fëanor (as always)

2. Fingolfin

3. Finrod

4. Aegnor

5. Turgon or Glorfindel

Btw, SGH, like my new sig? ;)

[brownjenkins]

well there is this passage from unfinished tales concerning galadriel:

She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.

this could be construed as pride (and pride is not always a bad thing in my opinion) ... of course i would be completely flip-flopping on my rant above to maedhros about not using supplemental material to back up arguments :p

so i concede :D ... he was certainly the most selfless of all the elven kings, with the possible exception of his father finarfin (who actually was named finrod early on in tolkien's writings)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think I am going to change my mind: Finrod is now officially on my top-three list of Elves.Well, what brought this on?

Btw, SGH, like my new sig? ;) Ah, another fine quote from the Athrabeth. I'm impressed.:)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, what brought this on?I wonder to. Don't play innocent SGH. What did you do to him? :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
I wonder to. Don't play innocent SGH. What did you do to him? :D I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.:D

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, what brought this on?
I read through the Athrabeth again. ;)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.:D

The same frying pan you accidentally were holding in your hand? :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
The same frying pan you accidentally were holding in your hand? :D

Well... the incident actually happened when Falagar questioned Finrod's bravery for not showing up at a particular battle. But SGH reminded him that Finrod was quite dead at the time... which seems a good enough excuse for skipping out on it.:D A page or two back...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.Oh I see. He's suffering from a temporary moment of madness. :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
I read through the Athrabeth again. ;) I think you need to read FoG again. :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh I see. He's suffering from a temporary moment of madness. :p Actually no, he just saw the light.:p

[Artanis]

Ha! I still think it's something fishy here. Did you perhaps feed him with Belgian chocolate?

[Thorin II]

I vote for Gil-galad. He wasn't as powerful as some of his predecessors, but I respect him for leading the Elves even as they started to decline. I don't think many (or any) of the previous High Kings would've formed an alliance with Men.

[Artanis]

Hi Thorin II, welcome! :)
Originally posted by Thorin II
I vote for Gil-galad. He wasn't as powerful as some of his predecessors, but I respect him for leading the Elves even as they started to decline. I don't think many (or any) of the previous High Kings would've formed an alliance with Men. Gil-Galad was great. But he wasn't the only High King to make alliance with Men. Both Fingolfin and Fingon had Men as allies, and so had others of the Elf Lords of old: Finrod, Maedhros ...

[brownjenkins]

gil-galad was the only elf-king, other than fëanor and maedhros, that realized that the only way to achieve true victory over an enemy was to make an attempt, even if costly, to utterly defeat him... and unlike the other two, he didn't have the shortcomings that made their attempts failures

[Lefty Scaevola]

This thread, "Favorite Elf King" has more posts than all the chapters of the Silmarrilion project combined. :confused: :o
Now i might understand that if it were filled with pics of Elf hunks and babes, (like a pic of Fingolfin in full armor and battle wrath) but otherwisaeit seems a misapllication of poster's attention.

Oh, and yes, Fingolfin, definitly Fingolfin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
This thread, "Favorite Elf King" has more posts than all the chapters of the Silmarrilion project combined. :confused: :o
Now i might understand that if it were filled with pics of Elf hunks and babes, (like a pic of Fingolfin in full armor and battle wrath) but otherwisaeit seems a misapllication of poster's attention.

Oh, and yes, Fingolfin, definitly Fingolfin. Now Lefty, you must understand too, that this thread is also about a year and a half older than the Sil project.:p :)

[Artanis]

And I assume there are some heavy FF discussions in here, with one particularly stub... err... active participant. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
And I assume there are some heavy FF discussions in here, with one particularly stub... err... active participant. :D Yeah, that dang Ruinel and her fantasies. :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, that dang Ruinel and her fantasies. :D Oh yeah, I should have said two instead of one in above post. :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh yeah, I should have said two instead of one in above post. :p I can't imagine who else you could be refering to.:confused: :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I can't imagine who else you could be refering to.:confused: :p Doesn't matter, everyone else can. :p

[Lefty Scaevola]

Would you be suggesting the the Sil project discussion will increase with the next chapter: Of Beren and Luthien, becasue of a certain sidekick of the two protagonists? ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Would you be suggesting the the Sil project discussion will increase with the next chapter: Of Beren and Luthien, becasue of a certain sidekick of the two protagonists? ;) You never know. :p

[Thorin II]

What about your least favorite Elf king? As unpopular as this will make me, I vote for Feanor. He allowed his pride to get in the way of his incredible gifts.

[Maedhros]

Oh yeah, I should have said two instead of one in above post.
That is sad beyond words.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Thorin II
What about your least favorite Elf king? As unpopular as this will make me, I vote for Feanor. He allowed his pride to get in the way of his incredible gifts.

As much as I absoluetly ADORE my dear Feanaro, I have to agree....perhaps if he didn't ride on to basically die fighting Balrogs, we would have seen what kind of king he would have been....

[Tuor of Gondolin]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Thorin II
What about your least favorite Elf king? As unpopular as this will make me, I vote for Feanor. He allowed his pride to get in the way of his incredible gifts.
____________________________________

You could be right. It's rumored Melkor once commented,
"You can't do business with that hot-head Feanor Corleone."

But for my part, although I don't think they were ever Kings, most disliked would be the Nasty Boys, Celegorm and Caranthir. Caranthir certainly had his daddy's temper.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Thorin II
What about your least favorite Elf king? As unpopular as this will make me, I vote for Feanor. He allowed his pride to get in the way of his incredible gifts. Thingol.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Thingol. Hm. I have to agree with you. Though I don't think he was that bad. But worse than rest of the bunch, yes. That is, as Tuor said, if Celegorm and Caranthir had been kings I would vote for them. Probably Celegorm.

[brownjenkins]

i'd probably say the celegorm was one of the worst... even his dog turned against him! :p

in terms of success/failure, though i like the character very much i'd have to say that in some ways fingolfin was one of the worst, since he squandered the opportunity to take out melkor when he had the chance... probably the best and only chance of the elves in the first age

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Thingol.

Thingol certainly had his faults (including pride, like Feanor), but I don't think he caused as much misery as Feanor did. He may have been bull-headed and unreasonable, but he wasn't arrogant enough to refuse the Valar.

[jammi567]

Turgon because although he was prideful, he did do the sensable thing and kept out of the way of Morgoth.

[The Telcontarion]

I vote for Gil-galad. He wasn't as powerful as some of his predecessors, but I respect him for leading the Elves even as they started to decline. I don't think many (or any) of the previous High Kings would've formed an alliance with Men.

My fellow "Tolkienite" Thorin II, Erienion Gil-galad was the latest but far from the weekest of the high kings of the Eldar. At the very least he was as powerful as his father Fingon the valiant and certainly stronger of will than Turgon who at the sack of his city gave up and allowed it to be razed without further effort on his part to prevent it; Erienion fought to the death. Aeglos had the mastery remember. Not because he was more recent makes him any less. He was a scion of kings and Elrond was his herald; do you doubt that Elrond the wise was less than any of the greatest of the kings of old; I think not.

Gil-galad was my king, I remember rushing the walls and...no more. Alas, it was a dark day, a bloody day; Anarion had fallen but a little while before.

[Sister Golden Hair]

At the very least he was as powerful as his father Fingon the valiant .But it turns out that Fingon was not the father of Gil-galad. Fingon had no children, and Gilgalad was the son of Orodreth. Orodreth turns out to be the son of Angrod instead of his brother. Of course this takes nothing away from what you have said about Gil-galad.

[The Telcontarion]

But it turns out that Fingon was not the father of Gil-galad. Fingon had no children, and Gilgalad was the son of Orodreth. Orodreth turns out to be the son of Angrod instead of his brother. Of course this takes nothing away from what you have said about Gil-galad.

Now I have a copy of the silmarillion right here and in the family tree as well as within the text itself it clearly says that Erienion was the son of Fingon. I have read the lost tales and such and I have seen thing s concerning galadriel and maglor that would suggest if Tolkien had time, the fates would have been different. But even Christopher Tolkien said that what is published in the Silmarillion is the the official timeline and any of the other stuff he could not include because he was not sure wiether or not his faher would have entered them in the main body. Why did you say what you said, I found it quite interesting.

"Of course this takes nothing away from what you have said about Gil-galad."

Thanks for agreeing.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Now I have a copy of the silmarillion right here and in the family tree as well as within the text itself it clearly says that Erienion was the son of Fingon. I have read the lost tales and such and I have seen thing s concerning galadriel and maglor that would suggest if Tolkien had time, the fates would have been different. But even Christopher Tolkien said that what is published in the Silmarillion is the the official timeline and any of the other stuff he could not include because he was not sure wiether or not his faher would have entered them in the main body. Why did you say what you said, I found it quite interesting.

"Of course this takes nothing away from what you have said about Gil-galad."

Thanks for agreeing.In the last three volumes of the Histories of Middle-earth series, Christopher Tolkien points out several mistakes made in editing the Silmarillion. Some of these mistakes were due to mis-interpretation of illegable notes made by his father. One of the biggest made was the parentage of Gil-galad and Orodreth.

If I can find a minute sometime today, I will try to look up the text from the HoMe and post it here. I'm not even sure which of the 3 books it is in. I think it may be Morgoth's Ring, but I'm not positive.

If you have the last three volumes of the HoMe: (Morgoth's Ring; War of the Jewels- which is the Later Silmarillion, and The Peoples of Middle-earth,) you will find many corrections that CT has made and how his father really meant for the Silmarillion to be. :)

[jammi567]

slight deviation, but do any of you think Chistopher will do a second addition of the sil, and correct the mistakes he made?

[Sister Golden Hair]

slight deviation, but do any of you think Chistopher will do a second addition of the sil, and correct the mistakes he made?No. He has already discussed that. Editing the Sil was a major task. He chose to make all the corrections to any mistakes made within it, in the HoMe, the Later Silmarillion.

[jammi567]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Ellf]

I would have to say Ingwe. The King of the Vanyar and high king of all Elves.

After him I would say Finwe, Feanor's father.

[Tulkas]

felagun is definatly the greatest elf-king.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Feanor. Notwithstanding that he nearly led the Noldor to ruin in the short time he was King, one can hardly name a King, or an Elf, for that matter, who accomplished more.

[Lotesse]

Feanor. Notwithstanding that he nearly led the Noldor to ruin in the short time he was King, one can hardly name a King, or an Elf, for that matter, who accomplished more.

Yes!!! Yes, good call. Most definitely Feanor. ;) :cool:

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I would have to choose between 3. My first choice would be Gil-Galad, then Finrod Felagund would be a very close second. The third would be Turgon of Gondolin.