Blame Fëanor

[Elemmírë]

Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault.

Now we're out to prove it.

Who's with us?

Or against? :p

[Count Comfect]

How about the initial songs of Morgoth when he flouted Eru? Was that Feänor's fault too? :p

[Elemmírë]

Give us time. We'll prove it. :p Not sure how strong our logic will be... but... ;)

[Embladyne]

How about the initial songs of Morgoth when he flouted Eru? Was that Feänor's fault too? :p*shakes magic 8 ball*
"Ask again later, silly head, answer unclear." ;)

[Elemmírë]

I'll work on that one. It probably will end up being the only really tricky one.

Here's Chrys's earlier reason why Maeglin's turning bad was Fëanor's fault (and the reason behind this thread):

maeglin had god intentions until he saw idril, if it weren't for eol ensnaring aredhel, maeglin wouldn't even be born, if it weren't for feanor's stoopid oath, aredhel, turgon et al wouldn't even be in beleriand

I can link anything back to ol' hothead Feanor

So, Maeglin's fall and as a result the Fall of Gondolin are Fëanor's fault.

Any others while we work on the Ainulindalë problem? And trust me, we will. We will.

[Manveru]

i think its more Morgoth's fault than Feanor's. But then you could say it was Iluvatar's fault for creating Melkor...

[Elemmírë]

Be careful with that particular claim. It's not always well accepted. :p

Hey, does retroactive blame count? I say it does. :evil:

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition :mad: ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:

He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.

This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all :p ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

:)

[Beren3000]

Go, Elemmire! (I knew that deep down inside you were a Fëanorophobic after all :p ) Good idea for a thread.
My way of blaming it all on Fëanor: none of what had happened would have if Fëanor had just given the Silmarils over to Yavanna. Arda would still have the two trees, the West wouldn't be hidden, the Valar would've fought Morgoth much earlier, etc...
♪Blame Fëanor......♪ Blame Fëanor......♪ :D

[Embladyne]

?Blame Fëanor......? Blame Fëanor......? :DI presume that you're singing that to the tune of "Blame Canada" :confused: :p
Don't get me wrong, I <3 Canada.

edit: when i post, the notes dissappear...arg to the fullest extent of argness possible. :mad:

[Elemmírë]

Go, Elemmire! (I knew that deep down inside you were a Fëanorophobic after all :p ) Good idea for a thread.
My way of blaming it all on Fëanor: none of what had happened would have if Fëanor had just given the Silmarils over to Yavanna. Arda would still have the two trees, the West wouldn't be hidden, the Valar would've fought Morgoth much earlier, etc...
♪Blame Fëanor......♪ Blame Fëanor......♪ :D

I figured you'd be coming over. ;) That makes it you, me, Em, and Chrys against... so far, everyone else. :p

Of course I'm a Fëanorophobic. :p After all, I'm a Finrodomaniac! I just happen to like several of Fëanor's sons, and think he was a rotten father to boot.

If I could forgive him for anything else (which I can't. I'm Teleri at heart :p ), I couldn't forgive him for his dying wish for vengeance...

[Beren3000]

I presume that you're singing that to the tune of "Blame Canada"
Don't get me wrong, I <3 Canada.
Yes, that's the tune! :p
I'm not sure what you mean by <3 but, I gotta say I didn't mean this song as an offense to anyone Canadian, I just used the tune!
I figured you'd be coming over. That makes it you, me, Em, and Chrys against... so far, everyone else.
Fear not, truth shall come to light! :D

[Embladyne]

Yes, that's the tune! :p
I'm not sure what you mean by <3 but, I gotta say I didn't mean this song as an offense to anyone Canadian, I just used the tune!

Fear not, truth shall come to light! :D
the "<3" is a heart turned on it's side. Yeah...I was hoping not to arg off any Canadians.
And we shall bring light to the world... ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

i think its more Morgoth's fault than Feanor's. But then you could say it was Iluvatar's fault for creating Melkor...
It was because of Fëanor, not Morgoth that the Noldor went into exile. All in all I think yes. Blame Fëanor! :D

[Elemmírë]

It was because of Fëanor, not Morgoth that the Noldor went into exile. All in all I think yes. Blame Fëanor! :D

Indeed. I agree with Beren. The Valar might not have turned their backs on ME and its inhabitants if not for Fëanor's rebellion.

Blame Fëanor! :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

The Sinking of Numenor was Feanor's fault.

If he had not made his stoopid oath, the noldor would not be in beleriand, hence tuor and idril would never meet, hence no earendil, hence no elrond or elros, hence no lines of numenorean kings, hence no Ar-Pharazon, hence no taking Sauron to Numenor, hence no Sauron poisoning Ar-Pharazon's mind more than it was already, hence no Numenorean fleet attempting to wrest Aman from the Valar, hence no Manwe calling upon Eru to sink that little island.

I rest my case, M'Lud!

[Valandil]

That Morgoth was ultimately defeated? Should we blame Feanor for that one too? ;)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

BTW, Ar-Pharazon seems to be the equivalent of feanor among men, dont you think
here is my list of 'bad-eggs'

Ainur - Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman/Balrogs
Elves - Feanor/Eol/Maeglin/Curufin
Men - Easterlings/Southrons/Ar-Pharazon
Dwarves - Mim/Ibin/His other son (forgot his name)
Hobbits - Lotho S-B/Ted Sandyman
Others - Old Man Willow/Caradhras the Cruel/Trolls/Orcs

[Elemmírë]

That Morgoth was ultimately defeated? Should we blame Feanor for that one too? ;)

That one would have to be more Eärendil's fault, methinks. ;)

Though... you could link it back all the way. :( He did so much to counter that final result, though, that it becomes rather implausible. :p

[Beren3000]

That Morgoth was ultimately defeated? Should we blame Feanor for that one too?
As I've said above, if Fëanor hadn't incurred the wrath of the Valar by refusing the Silmarils to Yavanna, they could've helped with Morgoth hundreds of years earlier. So if you're saying we should blame Fëanor that Morgoth was defeated late, then I agree :p

[Elemmírë]

Well spoken, Beren. Well spoken. :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

to the tune of 'Oh, Christmas Tree'

Oh Feanor, Oh Feanor,
you are so wicked, evil
you run about,
and mess around
and think not of your actions

[Nurvingiel]

Hobbits - Lotho S-B/Ted Sandyman
I think Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins were morons rather than actual bad eggs like Ar-Pharazon, Morgoth, or Fëanor.

I want to see the arguments blaming Fëanor for things that happened before he existed... :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I think Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins were morons rather than actual bad eggs like Ar-Pharazon, Morgoth, or Fëanor.

I want to see the arguments blaming Fëanor for things that happened before he existed... :D
yeh, but as far as hobbits go, they were bad

[ItalianLegolas]

yeah, because Hobbits were pretty good people, but of course, Feanor could be blamed for causing them to be evil! :D

[brownjenkins]

if not for Fëanor all of middle earth, except for the valar and a select few elves, would be under the rule of melkor... he should be thanked, not blamed

he lit the fire under the valar that eventually lead to the defeat of both melkor and sauron... not too shabby :D

[ItalianLegolas]

it doesn't matter what you say, they'll hate him anyway

[Embladyne]

it doesn't matter what you say, they'll hate him anywayWell, we will at least tell you how he is most definitely responsible for every problem on ME. And more.

But, let me answer BJ's argument with some wisdom from the magic 8 ball...*shakes it furiously...waits for the bubbles to subside from overshaking* Ah, here we go, "Fëanor stinks like a compost pile." And there you have it, direct from the mouth of the...er...magic 8 ball. :p

[Elemmírë]

I think Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins were morons rather than actual bad eggs like Ar-Pharazon, Morgoth, or Fëanor.

I want to see the arguments blaming Fëanor for things that happened before he existed... :D

You mean you missed my masterpiece! :eek: Oh, how horrible! :D Here's part of it, without smilies:

Hey, does retroactive blame count? I say it does.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:


He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.


This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.


Okay. Continuing... I've put far too much thought into this :rolleyes:

You're all going to love this one:

Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree?

So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees.

If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil.

And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar.

Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion. :D

[ItalianLegolas]

Thats confusling, but I think I get it... your Blaming feanor again. I hereby ordain that on 1 day out of everymonth, we will be forced to say something nice about Feanor, its only fair since we spit on his grave every day of the month.

[Embladyne]

I hereby ordain that on 1 day out of everymonth, we will be forced to say something nice about Feanor.Why bother? It'd be better just to keep silent than to lie.

[ItalianLegolas]

fine, 1 day we shall all say nothing about Feanor

[Embladyne]

fine, 1 day we shall all say nothing about FeanorOk then. I think I can try to do that. *picks up magic 8 ball and skakes some more* "You are doomed to failure"

[ItalianLegolas]

nevermind then, and why does it have to be a 8 ball?? 2 is a cooler number

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

'Magic 8 Ball' is an American Children's toy, shaped like a Pool ball, you shake it and a little message appears at the window, it's supposed to pretend to predict the future!!

[Elemmírë]

if not for Fëanor all of middle earth, except for the valar and a select few elves, would be under the rule of melkor... he should be thanked, not blamed

he lit the fire under the valar that eventually lead to the defeat of both melkor and sauron... not too shabby :D

A true Fëanorophilic, huh? Good. :)

I think I can do a bit better than Em here. :p

Well, I can't argue with you that he lit a fire. Ultimately, however, it was not because of Fëanor that the Valar finally came and destroyed Melkor. That would be the work of Eärendil and specific others. Of course, Eärendil himself could owe his entire existence to Fëanor.

It's hard to say what would have been if not for Fëanor. I don't believe he himself was the only force capable of galvanising the Valar, nor the best, since because of him, it almost didn't happen at all. In fact, a lot of things seem to happen in spite of Fëanor. Had Fingolfin, Finrod, and the others not chosen to cross the ice, the Valar would not have gotten involved either, I hazard to guess. Fëanor almost prevented that from happening.

I can't help but recall someone like Lúthien, the only person ever to move Mandos to tears. Something like that probably had a huge impact upon the final decision of the Valar to help, even if it is not mentioned specifically. It is hard to argue what would have, could have happened, but I think there were at least several figures in Middle Earth itself (Melian, Lúthien, Thingol... as much as I'd hate to admit, and who can say how many Men) who would have been able to appeal to the Valar if not for the Exile.

Then again, something like the Exile might have occurred even without Fëanor. According to one version of the story, Galadriel was planning on leaving Aman herself. Who can say what the results there would have been?

[Embladyne]

And it's a lovely toy...but it's answers are ****. Which I feel fits with the topic of Fëanor and his...mistakes.

BTW...my magic 8 ball has many more than 8 answers...which is precisely why it is magic. :D

[ItalianLegolas]

'Magic 8 Ball' is an American Children's toy, shaped like a Pool ball, you shake it and a little message appears at the window, it's supposed to pretend to predict the future!!

I know, but why pick the 8-ball!!

[Embladyne]

I know, but why pick the 8-ball!!We prolly crossposted....but look above^^^ ;)

90 SECOND RULE!! I ARG YOU! I ARG YOU BEYOND ALL IMAGINING OF ARGING! :D

[ItalianLegolas]

more then 8 answers!!! WOW!! That is magic

[Elemmírë]

Stop spamming my thread! :mad: :D

Come on, we have to prove Fëanor's evil, not that magic 8 balls are annoying! :p

[Embladyne]

Stop spamming my thread! :mad: :D

Come on, we have to prove Fëanor's evil, not that magic 8 balls are annoying! :pAre you accusing me of spamming? :eek: I was merely pointing out that Fëanor and the "evil" magic 8 ball are related in their evilness. We all know that everything is Fëanor's fault, and that his feet smell, and the 8 ball confirms it all.

[ItalianLegolas]

I'll stay out of this one then

[Manveru]

It was because of Fëanor, not Morgoth that the Noldor went into exile. All in all I think yes. Blame Fëanor! :D

Exactly!! Without Feanor Morgoth would have conquered the Great Lands and then gone on to attack Valinor. If the Noldor hadn't been exiled there would have been no war. he would have just finished off the Sindar, corrupted the men, and routed the dark elves. then once he had a big enough force he could assault valinor with all his dragons, balrogs, trolls, men, orcs, etc.

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"

[Elemmírë]

A nonspammy response! Yay! ;)

Exactly!! Without Feanor Morgoth would have conquered the Great Lands and then gone on to attack Valinor. If the Noldor hadn't been exiled there would have been no war. he would have just finished off the Sindar, corrupted the men, and routed the dark elves.

As opposed to him finishing off the Sindar, corrupting (or more likely killing) the men, routing the dark elves, and killing off most of the Noldor to go with it?

then once he had a big enough force he could assault valinor with all his dragons, balrogs, trolls, men, orcs, etc.

Well... Ar-Pharazon tried that too... :p

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"

Denethor didn't take the people of Gondor and march them into Mordor. If he had, I bet you'd be hearing that sort of stuff... :p

[Minielin]

Ultimately, though, it was Morgoth who deviated from the Music. So... though Feanor can be blamed for a large portion of the problems, the ultimate bulk of the problems come from Morgoth.

[Count Comfect]

In addition, hate to be a bother, but perhaps Tolkien WOULD have created the Two Trees without the future Silmarils - art for art's sake, beauty for beauty's sake, and all that jazz. The Trees are still a powerful metaphor.

Still very compelling antiFeänorian rhetoric though.

[Beren3000]

I realize Feanor wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he was mainly corrupted by Morgoth, he should be pitied, not blamed. He's sorta like Denethor getting corrupted by Sauron but I don't hear anyone going "Oh its Denethors fault that Gondor was getting attacked"
Excuse me, you seem to have stumbled into the wrong thread. This is the blame Fëanor thread :p
Now a little bit more seriously: I think you'll agree with me that Saruman was evil, won't you? Well, I think that Saruman and Fëanor are much alike in the following respects:
-They were both deluded, Morgoth played on Fëanor's hubris and Sauron on Saruman's lust for power.
-Both had the chance for redemption (Fëanor could have accepted to give the Silmarils to Yavanna and Saruman could have come down from Orthanc) and they spurned it.
Would you say then that you pity Saruman? No, I don't think so!
Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake! Plus, Morgoth inflamed Fëanor's pride, but Fëanors more than unhelthy obsession with the Silmarils (some people would call that "fetishism") was his own doing: that guy (or, more accurately, "elf") loved the work of his hands too much :mad:

[Elemmírë]

Ultimately, though, it was Morgoth who deviated from the Music. So... though Feanor can be blamed for a large portion of the problems, the ultimate bulk of the problems come from Morgoth.

A very large portion.


In addition, hate to be a bother, but perhaps Tolkien WOULD have created the Two Trees without the future Silmarils - art for art's sake, beauty for beauty's sake, and all that jazz. The Trees are still a powerful metaphor.

It's hard to say one way or the other, but to me the Silmarilli just seem so central to the whole story that it's hard for me to believe that the Trees, in his mind, were created first. I could be wrong, of course (and as soon as I get around to reading my new copy of the Letters, maybe I'll find out. :D )

Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake! Plus, Morgoth inflamed Fëanor's pride, but Fëanors more than unhelthy obsession with the Silmarils (some people would call that "fetishism") was his own doing: that guy (or, more accurately, "elf") loved the work of his hands too much

Nothing wrong with blaming and pitying at the same time, I don't think, but you've got some excellent points. :)

[Manveru]

Yes, Fëanor was misguided by Morgoth, but shouldn't he have known better? I mean, he lived with the GODS of ME for pity's sake!

Don't forget that Melkor was pretending to be good at this point. Even the "GODS of ME" didn't realize it. So no I don't think he should have known better.

[Pytt]

I don't rellay know if I think Feanor is to blame so much. Of course, he did an awful lot of bad stuff, but still. Not for everything, but for a good bit.

[Elemmírë]

Don't forget that Melkor was pretending to be good at this point. Even the "GODS of ME" didn't realize it. So no I don't think he should have known better.

Come on! He must have been the most paranoid guy in Valinor! He saw through Morgoth when he came to Formenos, finally.

And then the problems really started.

I don't think Beren meant that he should have known enough to not trust Morgoth, though. It seems to me that having living with and learned from Gods he should know enough not to do things like rebellion and kinslaying and treason and...

You get the point, I think. :)

[Beren3000]

I don't think Beren meant that he should have known enough to not trust Morgoth, though. It seems to me that having living with and learned from Gods he should know enough not to do things like rebellion and kinslaying and treason and...
Couldn't have put it better myself! :)

El, I wouldn't blame Melkor's deviation from the Music on Fëanor, that would be pushing it! :p However, what you can blame on him is the long-debated "the Valar shirking their duty" thing. Look how he could inflame a host of Noldor and coax even the sons of Finarfin to come along. If only he used this eloquence to rouse the Valar into action...ME would've been rid of Morgoth pretty early and then Elves could have returned to live in ME with no grudges on the Valar's part whatsoever.

So in conclusion everyone, whenever you feel sad for Turin, Luthien or anyone else...you know what to do: Blame Fëanor

[Elemmírë]

Couldn't have put it better myself! :)

El, I wouldn't blame Melkor's deviation from the Music on Fëanor, that would be pushing it! :p

Well, yes. I know it's pushing it... but we came in with the intention to blame everything on Fëanor, and it was a legitimate exception that had to be looked at and explained in such a way that Fëanor actually could be held responsible... at a theoretical level if nothing else.

I don't rellay know if I think Feanor is to blame so much. Of course, he did an awful lot of bad stuff, but still. Not for everything, but for a good bit.

Yes, but it's fun to blame him for everything. :p

However, what you can blame on him is the long-debated "the Valar shirking their duty" thing. Look how he could inflame a host of Noldor and coax even the sons of Finarfin to come along. If only he used this eloquence to rouse the Valar into action...ME would've been rid of Morgoth pretty early and then Elves could have returned to live in ME with no grudges on the Valar's part whatsoever.

Yes. :)

[Pytt]

Yes, maybe it is :p I have never thought properly about it. think I have to.

[Wayfarer]

Times have changed,
Those men are getting worse
They won't obey their elders.
They just fight and reproduce! Should we blame the Valar, or blame poor uprbinging, or should we blame the images on the palintiri? No!
Blame Feanor! Blame Feanor!

With his sons so cold and cruel,
And that stupid set of jewels!
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor!
We don't care if he's dead, put the blame on his head! Don't blame me, for Sauron and the Rings, it's those bloody Noldor and their shiny things!
And those humans once, looked up to us, but now they're self-important with their petty little kings!
Well, Blame Feanor!

It seems that everything's gone wrong since
Feanor came along
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor! He's not even a real elf anyway. We could have hung around in Valinor, it's true! Instead we're the main course at an orcish Barecue! Should we blame old Morgoth? Should we blame the orcs, or the soldiers who can't seem to do a thing to win this war? Heck no!
Blame Feanor!
Blame Feanor!
With his three fancy shiny jewels and his seven little fools. Blame Feanor!
Shame on Feanor!

No more magical toys!
No more unwinnable wars!
No Matter what you say,
we'll hate him anyway!
We must blame him and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!

:eyeshift:

[Pytt]

Your a genius, Wayfarer! I have thought about that song since this thread was created, but that is truly great! :D

[Elemmírë]

Heh. That's pretty good, Wayfarer. :p

[Count Comfect]

Brilliant song adaptation, Wayfarer. :)

On the topic of retroactive blame... I wonder if you could say that when Morgoth made his music go wrong, he had an idea in his mind of the havoc he would cause... havoc, embodied by Feänor... and therefore Feänor's future existence (or at least the existence of someone acting like Feänor) inspired the musical alterations.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

maybe the concept of feanor was melkor's deviant music?

[Count Comfect]

Oooh, interesting idea :D

[Manveru]

maybe the concept of feanor was melkor's deviant music?

That's possible, but that would make Melkor the guy to be blamed. Anyways what about all the terrible stuff that Melkor did before Feanor was born. Knocking down the lamps and leveling mountains and all that jazz.

[Wayfarer]

Maybe Feanor was the one responsible for corrupting Melkor in the first place?

Melkor went out into the Void, which was where he got the inspiration for his rebellion. While in the void he could have come into contact with a time-travelling future version of Feanor, who convinced him to go against Eru. Ever think about that? :rolleyes:

[Elemmírë]

Actually, yes. I was considering the possibilities of time travel. :cool:

Nice idea, Spidey. :eek: :)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

my next theory: the havens of umbar being a haven for black numenorans

most of it is feanor and his oath, without that no noldor in beleriand and so on no numenor hence o black numenoreans hence no umbar

[Wayfarer]

Well... If Feanor hadn't dragged the Noldor to Middle Earth, the Edain wouldn't have had to help them out. If the Edain hadn't saved their butts, the Valar wouldn't have given them Numenor. If they'd never migrated to Numenor, then Umbar wouldn't have been founded and there wouldn't be any Black Numenoreans. :p

[Manveru]

my next theory: the havens of umbar being a haven for black numenorans

most of it is feanor and his oath, without that no noldor in beleriand and so on no numenor hence o black numenoreans hence no umbar

hence no gondor, hence no arnor, hence no rohan, hence no shire, hence no aragorn, hence no army of the dead, hence no happy ending to the lord of the rings

[Pytt]

No, but no ring either. so no lord of the rings at all.

[Manveru]

No, but no ring either. so no lord of the rings at all.

Why? Morgoth could've corrupted Sauron without Feanor. In fact if it wasn't for Feanor and his Silmarills Ungoliant wouldn't have left Morgoth, so really I think we should be thanking Feanor because without him those two could've done alot more damage.

[Elemmírë]

hence no gondor, hence no arnor, hence no rohan, hence no shire, hence no aragorn, hence no army of the dead, hence no happy ending to the lord of the rings

But a happy ending to the Silmarillion! :D Though the story would have been quite a bit shorter... :p

In fact if it wasn't for Feanor and his Silmarills Ungoliant wouldn't have left Morgoth, so really I think we should be thanking Feanor because without him those two could've done alot more damage.

I don't agree. I think eventually I, Ungoliant would have left Morgoth with or without the Silmarils. If we had stayed together a bit longer, more damage might have been done, of course, but the end result would have most likely been the same. ;)

Greed doesn't just come out of nowhere. Even without the Silmarilli, eventually Ungoliant would have wanted more than Morgoth was willing to give her. Perhaps with a bit more time she would have been powerful enough to overtake him.

That, of course, would leave us with a whole other set of problems... :eek: :p

[Elemmírë]

Why? Morgoth could've corrupted Sauron without Feanor.

A lot of things, for good or for evil, could have happened, and likely would have, without Fëanor. The story would be much different, but it would not necessarily be better or worse.

I'm not claiming that the world would have been perfect without Fëanor, simply that much of went wrong in this particular sequence of events was Fëanor's fault. Who can say what would have happened without Fëanor? Possibly just a whole other set of problems. :D

Still, this doesn't mean that Fëanor's blame should be any less.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme.
Now there are other people you could blame, and if you go with my train of thought then you end up giving most of the blame to Eru, but Feanor still gets some. And that is the point, to blame him. Nothing was said about all the blame.
Which is a question I have, are you trying to give him all the blame? A neat thing about what I was thinking though, is that you don't have to go on the whole retrospective blame stuff.

[Elemmírë]

Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault.

So, yes, we are trying to give him all the blame. It would be entertaining to see if it can be done.

And by giving him all the blame, I don't see how we can avoid retroactive guilt (I wonder if that's something I just coined... :p ). Of course there are other people who could be blamed (Túrin...Túrin...Túrin...), but I don't think that any, saving Melkor, is as supportable.

Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme.

Essentially that's what I was saying. Yes.

Blame everything on Eru...? I thought you liked him... :p

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

[Elemmírë]

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

cute. :p

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Thank you.

[trolls' bane]

So, you're saying it was Feänor's fault that the pillars were destroyed?
(sorry if someone already mentioned that)

But it is easy to blame on him... :D

[Wayfarer]

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

[trolls' bane]

Hmm. Sorry. I'm up at ten (the easy part) after having several cans of soda and have been lisenting to people attempting to sing but failing miserably, so I am not thinking beyond what I am primarily thinking and I feel like doing something sudden for no reason because I'm so tired so here:

Mg, Magnesium, Group II: Alkaline Metals, Solid, Metal, Higly Reactive, corrosive, luster=shiny, color=silver.

[Elemmírë]

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

Ah! You're following my logic now. :) I wasn't sure before whether you were on our side here or just being sarcastic... :D

Nice to have you with us (if you are)... And I don't think we can lose now ;)

Heh. TB, I'm tired too. It took me several minutes to realise "shiny" and "luster" were not referring to Fëanor...

[Wayfarer]

I wasn't sure before whether you were on our side here or just being sarcastic... Oh, come on. What would Treebeard Say? ;)

[trolls' bane]

Were you talking to me, Elemmire, or to someone else. I think you were, but I don't even know what I'm talking about.

[Elemmírë]

Oh, come on. What would Treebeard Say? ;)

Much too much. :p

Were you talking to me, Elemmire, or to someone else. I think you were, but I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Well that's good, since neither do I, haven't you noticed? :p

But, yes, I was talking to you.

[Manveru]

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

That's still not Feanor's fault. That's like saying its my fault this thread was started because I was going to post in it.

[Elemmírë]

That's still not Feanor's fault. That's like saying its my fault this thread was started because I was going to post in it.

Well... try to look at it all from a rather fatalistic point of view.

If one of your posts somewhere along the line in this thread starts something serious or somehow changes the way we all think about Tolkien (or makes us go declare war on Mexico :eek: ), then perhaps one could claim that this thread had to be started so that such an event could come to pass.

In which case, if you believe that fate is stuck in stone, and that such a future event had to come to pass, it most certainly is your fault, rather than mine and Chrys's, that this thread was started.

And that's the sort of logic that we're using to blame Fëanor. Of course, it hinges upon the presence of fate and almost complete absence of free will, though I think such is a perfectly logical way to view Middle Earth. :)

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Well...Tolkien did write these books and since he did then you know that everything happened for a reason. And if everything happened for a reason(fate) then it is Feanor's fault.

I think all I did was back up what Elemmire was saying...just from a different point of veiw.

[Manveru]

But then its not Feanor himself that is at fault, it is his fate. You can't blame him for that

[Elemmírë]

But then its not Feanor himself that is at fault, it is his fate. You can't blame him for that

Why not? :evil:

How about "It was his personality that was at fault"? I think that someone is as closely tied to their fate as to their personality. Perhaps you could claim that Fëanor couldn't control his arrogance, but this doesn't mean that he is any less to blame. His arrogance is a part of him, as is his fate, I think.

[Kellquenti]

AAAAAGH! Iv'e only just seen this thread :eek: How could you!!" :D :D
(takes up Feanorian forged sword in defence of my beloved Feanorians!!!") :evil:

[Elemmírë]

AAAAAGH! Iv'e only just seen this thread :eek: How could you!!" :D :D
(takes up Feanorian forged sword in defence of my beloved Feanorians!!!") :evil:

You're late, Kell. I was expecting you a while ago. :p :)

The sword won't work, but you can try to beat us with logic. :evil:

And we're only bashing Fëanor. We've left the sons alone. They are, after all, Fëanor's fault anyway! :p

[edited] How ever did I manage to rack up so many posts here? :confused: I've never talked about magic 8 balls... :D

[Kellquenti]

You're late, Kell. I was expecting you a while ago. :p :)

The sword won't work, but you can try to beat us with logic. :evil:

And we're only bashing Fëanor. We've left the sons alone. They are, after all, Fëanor's fault anyway! :p ;)
I was playing (stupidly) in COE Rude words to logic. :D Feanor, as well as his sons I shall defend!! :p :D FOREVER!!

[Embladyne]

[edited] How ever did I manage to rack up so many posts here? :confused: I've never talked about magic 8 balls... :DAre you baiting me? :eek: Well, then, my magic 8 ball says to you "Phhhhhhhffffft!" and "You stink!" and "Too bad I'm not a silmaril, or I could cause a lot more damage to you and your heirs...." :p

[Minielin]

Again with the 8 ball. ;)

[Elemmírë]

Again with the 8 ball. ;)

Annoying, isn't it? :p

I wish a Fëanorian would come and try to refute us. :(

Kell! Where are you! :mad: :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Annoying, isn't it? :p

I wish a Fëanorian would come and try to refute us. :(

Kell! Where are you! :mad: :D
they all know that we're right :p

[Minielin]

Hmm. I'm still going with Blame Morgoth. Maybe I should put it in my signature. ;)

[Embladyne]

I know this is an easy one, but I blame Fëanor for Miriel's early departure to the halls of Mandos, and Finwë's great grief. And then he had to hate his dad's new wife. I mean, this guy caused a lot of pain for his father, and Finwë still loved him. Gah. That's the worst. Ungrateful kids. :p

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why? Morgoth could've corrupted Sauron without Feanor. In fact if it wasn't for Feanor and his Silmarills Ungoliant wouldn't have left Morgoth, so really I think we should be thanking Feanor because without him those two could've done alot more damage.
But there would be no point in maing the One, if Celebrimbor and the elves of Eregion had not made the nine, the seven and the three. And the elves of Eregion were Noldorin, and the Noldorin elves were led into exile by Fëanor, hence it is all his fault.

[Kellquenti]

Sorry Ellemire, I was out sharpening my kinslaying equipment :evil:
and recharging a silmaril or three!
Right who do you want me to whack in the head with the first one? :D :D :p
And it is NOT Feanor's fault!( whatever it is :) )I'll take the blame , I usually do :(

[Pytt]

Wow, that is not a small thing. All the blame? are you sure you could handle that? If you ask Ellie and the other guys, that mean you take the blame for everything that EVER happended in Arda, which was of the bad. Wow.

[Count Comfect]

Hey, question - is Feanor responsible for anything Good? Or just bad? :p

[Embladyne]

Hey, question - is Feanor responsible for anything Good? Or just bad? :pI'm pretty sure the point of this thread was to point out how he was responsible for bad things. But....make him responsible for what you will...

[Pytt]

I'll guess doing good things is not cool :p and I don't think this will be the best place to say if he did, you would be slaughtered like a chicken in a foxfarm ;)

[Elemmírë]

Sorry Ellemire, I was out sharpening my kinslaying equipment :evil:
and recharging a silmaril or three!
Right who do you want me to whack in the head with the first one? :D :D :p
And it is NOT Feanor's fault!( whatever it is :) )I'll take the blame , I usually do :(

Oh, yes. Pytt is quite correct. We're claiming that everything is Fëanor's fault. :evil: Please try to refute us... this is getting too easy! :0 :( :D


Hey, question - is Feanor responsible for anything Good? Or just bad?

A good question, CC. Looking at this from a more... erm, serious, perspective, I would have to say that even Morgoth was responsible for good things (unintentionally, of course :D ). I'd bring the same judgement over to Fëanor.

It would be folly to say he was not responsible for anything good. Despite the incredible evil that came out of the Return, I don't think it can be claimed that no good came of it. Fëanor would therefore be as responsible for the good as for the evil.

But, in any case, I think that the evil far outweighs the good.

[Kellquenti]

Oh, yes. Pytt is quite correct. We're claiming that everything is Fëanor's fault. :evil: Please try to refute us... this is getting too easy! :0 :( :D



A good question, CC. Looking at this from a more... erm, serious, perspective, I would have to say that even Morgoth was responsible for good things (unintentionally, of course :D ). I'd bring the same judgement over to Fëanor.

It would be folly to say he was not responsible for anything good. Despite the incredible evil that came out of the Return, I don't think it can be claimed that no good came of it. Fëanor would therefore be as responsible for the good as for the evil.
But, in any case, I think that the evil far outweighs the good.
I refute everything!!! :mad: Feanor is just a scapegoat for all the petty , pathetic jealous nonentities that marred Arda or wherever, Just because he had the guts to stand up and say "RUDE WORDS TO YOU LOT!!!"
he gets slammed for it :mad: Pity some other nancy Elves didn't do the same, or dare I join Feanor in defying the Valar(which I do!!! :evil: ) some of them!!!! Mr Manwe was not exactly pro active in his ideas , I shall probably be cursed with the same curse as Feanor (GOOD I DON'T CARE!!! ) I have a silmaril ready to whack the nearest non Feanor senseless!! :evil: :D
(Bad day at the forge today!! :) )

[Elemmírë]

I refute everything!!! :mad: Feanor is just a scapegoat for all the petty , pathetic jealous nonentities that marred Arda or wherever, Just because he had the guts to stand up and say "RUDE WORDS TO YOU LOT!!!"
he gets slammed for it :mad: Pity some other nancy Elves didn't do the same, or dare I join Feanor in defying the Valar(which I do!!! :evil: ) some of them!!!! Mr Manwe was not exactly pro active in his ideas , I shall probably be cursed with the same curse as Feanor (GOOD I DON'T CARE!!! ) I have a silmaril ready to whack the nearest non Feanor senseless!! :evil: :D
(Bad day at the forge today!! :) )

:eek: Are you okay, Kell?

Anyway, he did a lot more than just say rude words. Let's see... rebellion, murder, treason... The list goes on until he finally died. :evil:

[Attalus]

:eek: Are you okay, Kell?

Anyway, he did a lot more than just say rude words. Let's see... rebellion, murder, treason... The list goes on until he finally died. :evil:Uselessly, stupidly. He had about as much notion of tactics as a year-old bull calf. "Hey, there's the big, impregnible fortress of Morgoth on Arda, surrounded with Balrogs. Let's go smash ourselves against the walls."

[Kellquenti]

:eek: Are you okay, Kell?

Anyway, he did a lot more than just say rude words. Let's see... rebellion, murder, treason... The list goes on until he finally died. :evil:
I'm fine :) just my Feanorian fire spirit got loose :) As it sometimes does, (by the way , shall I sling the first one at Atalus?)

[Elemmírë]

Uselessly, stupidly. He had about as much notion of tactics as a year-old bull calf. "Hey, there's the big, impregnible fortress of Morgoth on Arda, surrounded with Balrogs. Let's go smash ourselves against the walls."

What an absolute idiot. :rolleyes: (not you, Attalus :p )

Interesting, the obvious distinction between genious and true wisdom, wouldn't you all say? Here's the logic of the most brilliant of the Noldor. :rolleyes:

Count Comfect and I have been discussing it over PM and don't really think that Fëanor's sons stood much of a chance against him and the Oath.

Since there's not much more to blame Fëanor on, anyone want to move into discussing his sons? :)

[Pytt]

Blaming his sons too? or speaking of them in a general way? Yes, why not? maybe you come up with more things to blame Feanor for ;)

[Elemmírë]

Actually, it might seem strange, but I don't blame them that much at all. I don't think you can look at the Oath as just a normal sort of promise... geas goes much further than that...

[Pytt]

Yes, I agree. The Oath is much stronger. That truly was Feanors fault, not his sons.

[Elemmírë]

I'm quite against the argument that Fëanor's sons did not have to follow after their father and speak the Oath. After all, Fëanor managed to incite almost all of the Noldor to rebellion... and then to kinslaying.

How could his sons have abandoned him in that moment? How could they have withstood their father when few else of the Noldor could? And I think filial duty comes into it quite a bit here as well...

And what could they have done after? :(

*This* is why I hate Fëanor. ;) :mad: ;)

[Pytt]

Yes. Who were they, his sons if they had opposed him, when everyone else hailed him? He got to be a elf people liked and admired to get them to that.
So if they sons of Feanor "had" a choice, they really had not. I don't find a hiting comparsion now.

[Kellquenti]

What an absolute idiot. :rolleyes (not you, Attalus :p )

Interesting, the obvious distinction between genious and true wisdom, wouldn't you all say? Here's the logic of the most brilliant of the Noldor. :rolleyes:

Count Comfect and I have been discussing it over PM and don't really think that Fëanor's sons stood much of a chance against him and the Oath.

Since there's not much more to blame Fëanor on, anyone want to move into discussing his sons? :)
Oooh careful! :D :D

[Elemmírë]

Oooh careful! :D :D

I'm defending them, Kell. :p Though in some cases, I don't know why... ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Everythings Fëanor's sons did was Fëanor's fault!

[Count Comfect]

Everythings Fëanor's sons did was Fëanor's fault!
Yes, exactly. So, what shall we blame them for?

[Attalus]

I'm fine :) just my Feanorian fire spirit got loose :) As it sometimes does, (by the way , shall I sling the first one at Attalus?)S'okay, I am armoured in armour of the Elder days. :p Ooh, lets start with Celegorm and Curufin, guilty of kidnapping and holding Luthien to get her daddy to marry Celegorm. What a name, BTW. I think JRRT disliked him, too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah, and trying to usurp Finrod's throne and turning all his people against him. :mad:

[Minielin]

Of Feanor's sons, Celegorm & Curufin are the only ones I really dislike... I have sympathy for all the others in one way or another, since everything they may have done was Feanor's fault. The kidnapping of Luthien etc., however, was not. ;)

[trolls' bane]

Why keep blaming Feanor? Why don't we also blame Isildur :p?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

because if it wasn't for feanor, isuldur would not even exist :p

[trolls' bane]

because if it wasn't for feanor, isuldur would not even exist :p
True... I guess it is easy to blame him. But I remember reading something that led me to beleive that it was npt all his fault.

[Embladyne]

EL brings up the sticky point of whether Feanor or his sons were to blame for their actions. I tend to agree that the sons weren't, to some degree....and that the oath was too great of a burden for them to shake off. And that to me, is the most despicable of Feanor's deeds. To force his family to commit the crimes they did, and all for the sake of the Silmarils. To connect this to another idea that Mair and other beings trained by Aule often seem to become corrupt...from them becoming too prideful and invested in their creations...the sheer pride that caused Feanor to put his posessiong of the Silmarils above the well being of his family, and the rest of the Noldor...and the peoples of ME in ever greater circles.
I just cannot forgive him for that.
And what were his sons supposed to do? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[Elemmírë]

It was a geas.

What choice did they have?

You can't just break free from one of those.

And don't forget that several of them tried.

[edited] Not arguing against you, Em. Of course. :)

[Embladyne]

It was a geas.

What choice did they have?

You can't just break free from one of those.

And don't forget that several of them tried.

[edited] Not arguing against you, Em. Of course. :)I realize that they had no choice...but if they did, I don't think they would have been free to choose any differently. Although it makes me sad the way the twins died, at the same time, I am thankful that they managed to get out of the mess earlier on.
Yeah, not arguing with you, either.

[Willow Oran]

Whoa, wait a minute, don't you think this is just a bit unfair? To say that everything wrong in Middle Earth is the fault of this one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being? The events in the Silmarillion are the result of many people making many mistakes of varying sizes causing chain reactions coming together to cause catastrophes, to blame it all on one person is ridiculous.
Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.
How can we be sure that the theft of the silmarils was really the cause? It could have been something else entirely with Feanor and his creations being convinient objects/persons to cast the blame upon.
The entire basis for your argument that he is at fault could be a historical misrepresentation.

(For the sake of the argument we will ignore the fact that the 'history' in question is fictional.)

[Count Comfect]

one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being
I think that point is something that is being contested here.

As I see it, yes, it is all a very complex web - but every bad thing traces back to Feänor, as at least some of the cause. And that isn't true for other people/elves/what have you with the possible exception of Morgoth, who is just too easy and Eru, which is reductive.

And the Sil isn't like the Lord of the Rings/Book of Westmarch - much more of an omniscient account, much less of a Hobbit history book.

Also, we sort of have to assume what we have is accurate - otherwise any argument has no conclusion as anything could be an inaccuracy.

ALL of which is not to say that you don't have a perfectly valid point and that this isn't fair. But it's not supposed to be fair - it's supposed to blame Feänor :p

[Elemmírë]

First of all, I have to thank Willow Oran for coming into this thread, since we've definitely needed a challenge.

Whoa, wait a minute, don't you think this is just a bit unfair? To say that everything wrong in Middle Earth is the fault of this one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being?

Fëanor may have been no more fallible than anyone else (save perhaps Morgoth, as Count Comfect mentioned), but he certainly caused much more damage. Without Fëanor, many of the events of the First Age, and subsequently, the Second and Third would not have occurred. What would have come about instead is anyone's guess.

The theoretical aspect of the situation is hardly important, I feel. We are not claiming that everything would have been perfect and wonderful without Fëanor, only that everything wrong that happened arguably originated with him. Though we cannot prove that the Noldor would not have returned without Fëanor, it is unarguable, I think, that in the mythos he was indeed the cause of the Return, and thus the cause of all that happened after it.

The events in the Silmarillion are the result of many people making many mistakes of varying sizes causing chain reactions coming together to cause catastrophes, to blame it all on one person is ridiculous.

But the fact remains that without the first part of a chain reaction, the rest would not have occurred. Fëanor's Silmarilli are at the root of almost everything that happened. And they exist because of him.

Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.

How can we be sure that the theft of the silmarils was really the cause? It could have been something else entirely with Feanor and his creations being convinient objects/persons to cast the blame upon.

The entire basis for your argument that he is at fault could be a historical misrepresentation.

Theoretically, we also have the Noldolantë, written by Maglor Fëanorion. If we can trust anyone to represent Fëanor in the best light possible, it would be one of his sons. And as Count Comfect already mentioned, it is likely that the Silmarillion is a complilation of many different, in some cases most likely first hand, accounts. In my mind, this explains the various different versions. However, all of them have Fëanor as the maker of the Silmarilli and the direct cause of the Return.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.
Even if it wasn't him that suggested and probably forced the idea of killing the Teleri (I think it was btw) then he ca still be blamed! :evil: If it wasn't for Fëanor swearing that darned Oath and leading the best part of the Noldor into Middle-earth then none of the kinslayings would have occured and the Valar would probably attacked Morgoth sooner out of mercy and compassion for the Silvan elves.

[brownjenkins]

the Valar would probab;y attacked mOrgoth sooner out of mercy and compassion for the Silvan elves.

oh really? the valar are the ones who deserve the blame... they left poor Fëanor little choice but to take things into his hands... they knew the kinslaying was going to happen, yet they did nothing to stop it... at the very least they could have provided passage across the sea to those who wished to leave

"someone stole your silmarils and killed your father? that's too bad, but there is really nothing we can do about it"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Because the Valar would not aid nor hinder the Noldor's quest. If they did we'd all be here blaming th Valar for killing half the Noldor, to prevent them from killing themselves.

[Count Comfect]

Also, just because someone killed your father and stole the Silmarils, you still don't have a right to start butchering other elves and bringing fire and death to any who oppose you. I think. :p

[brownjenkins]

so a return trip to ME was too much to ask for?

they seemed to have no problem sticking their noses in when they wanted some company in their little paradise... but when someone wants to leave all the sudden it's a matter of principle

[Count Comfect]

Well, that is true. The Valar are not without blame. But it still remains that without Feänor, the kinslaying and the wars of the Oath would not have happened. Hence the blame.

[Blackheart]

Feanor is Tolkien's version of Kevin Bacon... which is the best reason to hate him...

[Falagar]

I'd say we blame Eru, who started the whole thing in the first place. And Fëanor is innocent; his evil twin-brother made him do it.

[brownjenkins]

I'd say we blame Eru, who started the whole thing in the first place. And Fëanor is innocent; his evil twin-brother made him do it.

exactly... that's what happens when you try to "play god" ;)

[Embladyne]

Even if it wasn't him that suggested and probably forced the idea of killing the Teleri (I think it was btw) then he ca still be blamed! :evil: It was Feanor. The Teleri were not willing to give up their ships, or teach the Noldor how to build any, so Feanor acted with his usual disregard for other's well-being and killed a bunch 'till he and the Noldor were able to escape with the entire fleet of ships. Leaving a blood bath behind. And that's only the beginning of his doomed quest. :mad:

[Wayfarer]

It was Melkor's lust for Feanor's jewels that caused him to partner with Ungoliant and assault Valinor. So it was Feanor's fault that the trees were destroyed.

Which, come to think of it, is a good thing. Those Valar, braying, incompetent asses, that they were, had been selfishly keeping all the light in the world locked away to themselves. The trees being destroyed was good.

So, Feanor was to blame for at least one good thing.

[Beren3000]

Which, come to think of it, is a good thing. Those Valar, braying, incompetent asses, that they were, had been selfishly keeping all the light in the world locked away to themselves. The trees being destroyed was good.

So, Feanor was to blame for at least one good thing.
Sure, that's a way to look at it. But another way is that, instead of rousing the Noldor to rebellion, Fëanor could have used his charisma to do good by rousing those "braying, incompetent asses" into action against Morgoth. So the Valar could've went into action without the Trees having to be destroyed! So...good thing? :)

[Elemmírë]

Wayfarer, I don't think that's a claim I've ever heard before. :p

so a return trip to ME was too much to ask for?

they seemed to have no problem sticking their noses in when they wanted some company in their little paradise... but when someone wants to leave all the sudden it's a matter of principle

No.

Fëanor never gave the Valar a chance to help him (if indeed they would have). "Why, O people of the Noldor, why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are they and he not of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the theif of my treasure..."

And then comes the Oath.

No civility. No diplomacy. No reconciliation. But from Fëanor, what can you really expect?

What, pray tell, are the Valar to do? Never does Fëanor ask for their help, but only throws insults and scorn at them. And after such words, why should they support an adventure doomed to failure and death?

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.

[Embladyne]

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.That's true. Manwe decided that they would neither help nor hinder because he knew Feanor already saw the Valar in a bad light, and this was in part because Melkor had slandered them, and part because Melkor was of the same race as them.

[Willow Oran]

Always glad to play devil's advocate. :p

Anyway...
It was Melkor's lust for Feanor's jewels that caused him to partner with Ungoliant and assault Valinor. So it was Feanor's fault that the trees were destroyed.

This would an example of what not to do when jumping to conclusions. What we see here is the victim being blamed for the wrongdoer's shortcomings. It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations. Desiring to posess everything good for himself is part of Melkor's nature. If the silmarils had never been created it is highly likely that Melkor would have lusted after something else important to the elves/valar and caused just as much grief.

[Elemmírë]

Always glad to play devil's advocate. :p

Anyway...


This would an example of what not to do when jumping to conclusions. What we see here is the victim being blamed for the wrongdoer's shortcomings. It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations. Desiring to posess everything good for himself is part of Melkor's nature. If the silmarils had never been created it is highly likely that Melkor would have lusted after something else important to the elves/valar and caused just as much grief.

And yet it is irrelevant to argue "could have beens." This is why I at least am being careful not to claim that everything would have been perfect without Fëanor. I believe, like you do, that this is most likely not the case. But that realisation does not make Fëanor any less blameworthy for the things he did do.

Perhaps you are correct in that Fëanor should not be blamed for Morgoth wanting the jewels. However, how much of an effect did Fëanor shutting "the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä" have upon Morgoth? Remember that after this Morgorth "saw not his time yet for revenge; but his heard was black with anger."

This was certainly another event that led to the way things eventually fell out, and one entirely of Fëanor's doing.

And yes, devil's advocate is fun. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Let's just say that Feanor acted in haste out of anger. But for his lack of self control in dealing with events and allowing his temper to get the better of him, his choices for handling these situations may have been otherwise.

[Kellquenti]

Still keeping (unusually) quiet. Waiting for another spitefull attack on my Feanorian brothers, :D ( EL promise I won't get uncontrollably mad again) ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Still keeping (unusually) quiet. Waiting for another spitefull attack on my Feanorian brothers, :D ( EL promise I won't get uncontrollably mad again) ;)Oh, I could really get you going Kell. :evil:

[brownjenkins]

Always glad to play devil's advocate. :p

yeah! join the club :p

[brownjenkins]

No civility. No diplomacy. No reconciliation. But from Fëanor, what can you really expect?

What, pray tell, are the Valar to do? Never does Fëanor ask for their help, but only throws insults and scorn at them. And after such words, why should they support an adventure doomed to failure and death?

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

[Kellquenti]

Oh, I could really get you going Kell. :evil:
Go for it woman!! Try my Wrath :evil: :D

[Minielin]

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy? It's a very good point.

[Sister Golden Hair]

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?Well, they had free will and the Valar could and were only allowed to do so much. Look at it this way: Gandalf could as a maia done much more than he did, but he was forbidden. He did all that he could within the instruction of Iluvatar.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations.
Well he made them. If he never made them then Melkor would have never lusted them.

[Pytt]

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt ;)

[Elemmírë]

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

I agree with SGH here.

Also, I was not claiming that it was "huffiness" that prevented the Valar from acting. ;) Even if they wanted to, how could they have helped someone who so clearly didn't want help?

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt ;)

Well, had he not made the Silmarilli, we would not have known that he could do such a thing, and thus could not blame him.

[Falagar]

But you must admit that it is unlikely Morgoth would ever have redeemed himself. :p
If Fëanor's jewels hadn't encouraged him to act swiftly and rasshly I think a far more devious plan would have come into being.

[Count Comfect]

It is quite possible that if Feänor had not existed, bad things would have happened. Things might even have been worse. However, it is important to note that what DID go wrong in the Sil was his fault, in some way shape or form. That has no implication of whether worse things would have happened anyway - just that the SAME things would not have happened.

[Falagar]

Of course - But then again one could say the same for Eru, as I noted above. Or Manwë. I am not denying Fëanor did a whole lot of bad things and must carry a great deal of blame on his shoulders.
However, you can't blame him for what happend because of the things he created - unless you also agree to blame Eru for creating Morgoth, Yavanna for creating the Two Trees (that enhanced Ungoliantë's powers), Aulë for the dwarves, Morgoth for almost everything he created, and so on.

[brownjenkins]

Well, they had free will and the Valar could and were only allowed to do so much. Look at it this way: Gandalf could as a maia done much more than he did, but he was forbidden. He did all that he could within the instruction of Iluvatar.

i don't remember any specific limitation on the valar as far as taking care of melkor was concerned... something they ended up doing eventually anyway... in fact, they even tried to get him after his crime, but gave up after their initial failure

free will is one thing... but considering the state of grief Fëanor was in they offered very little in terms of counsel

from the sil (after hearing of his father's death):

Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

i think the valar let him down... they didn't even attempt to help him

[Count Comfect]

i think the valar let him down... they didn't even attempt to help him But he just fled. Did he stick around to be helped? No, he headed off rashly on his own. They would have had to pursue him to help, and he would have turned on anyone who pursued him, assuming that they meant to harm him.

Also, I would blame Aule for the dwarves, Yavanna for the two trees, etc. But they do not have blame for Everything that went wrong. Eru does (as I noted above - but too easy, he created everything). Feänor does too.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt ;)
They are just ifs and buts. This thread is about Blaming Fëanor for what actually happened in The Sil, not what might have done had other people done certain things and vice versa.

[brownjenkins]

But he just fled. Did he stick around to be helped? No, he headed off rashly on his own. They would have had to pursue him to help, and he would have turned on anyone who pursued him, assuming that they meant to harm him.

i think the passage i quoted from the Sil shows that tolkien may have thought differently... as do the earlier versions of "lost tales" that put the blame squarely on the valar... slackers! (except ulmo, without whom even the eventual downfall of melkor would never have happened :D )

[Radagast The Brown]

They are just ifs and buts. This thread is about Blaming Fëanor for what actually happened in The Sil, not what might have done had other people done certain things and vice versa.Even if Feanor hadn't made the Silmarils, Melkor would've, probably, done something else. You can't blame Feanor for that - no one could know. It's not that the silmarils were evil or bad - if one of the Maiar had made them, I think they would've been safe and wouldn't have caused any problems..
So - my point is, it's not only Feanor's fault.

[Falagar]

Also, I would blame Aule for the dwarves, Yavanna for the two trees, etc. But they do not have blame for Everything that went wrong. Eru does (as I noted above - but too easy, he created everything). Feänor does too.
Well, if Yavanna hadn't made the Two Trees Melkor would not have become so envious of the light and Fëanor would never have been able to make the Silmarils. Which means that Yavanna is actually more responsible than Fëanor.

[Count Comfect]

So - my point is, it's not only Feanor's fault
Agreed. But it is all his fault. Just not his SOLE fault. That's the key point. Obviously, everything that happened is not Solely predicated on Feanor or what Feanor did or said. It's just that everything has a base, a connection to Feanor such that if he had not done what he did, the precise events of the Sil would not have happened. Not to say that nothing bad, or even nothing similar would have happened. Just that what DID happen wouldn't have.

brownjenkins - I disagree about the passage from the Sil you quoted, but that's a matter of subjective interpretation. And of course Tolkien may have thought differently. All things are possible, and that may even be probable. But I'd still say we can blame Feanor for his actions, although we may ALSO be able to blame the Valar, or Morgoth, or anyone else for some specific things.

[Falagar]

Agreed. But it is all his fault. Just not his SOLE fault. That's the key point. Obviously, everything that happened is not Solely predicated on Feanor or what Feanor did or said. It's just that everything has a base, a connection to Feanor such that if he had not done what he did, the precise events of the Sil would not have happened. Not to say that nothing bad, or even nothing similar would have happened. Just that what DID happen wouldn't
Except from everything that happend before he was born, which includes Melkor rebelling and turning away from the light. Melkor also plotted against Valinor/the Elves before Fëanor got involved.

[Kellquenti]

Don't care ,IT WAS NOT FEANOR OR ANY OF HIS SON'S FAULT! :evil:
They just were the only ones to have any guts to say and think differently.
Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed, Count me in with them :evil: So they were drawn too far into gaining back the silmarills, but that gives them the strength of conviction and loyalty , Say what you want ,I am a true Feanorian, Curse me too if you want. :D

[Elemmírë]

Except from everything that happend before he was born, which includes Melkor rebelling and turning away from the light. Melkor also plotted against Valinor/the Elves before Fëanor got involved.

I covered that one, actually. So did Wayfarer. Though... you're more than welcome to attack our logic... :p


Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed

Well, that's because, even if we're completely wrong about everything else, Fëanor was responsible for the downfall of the Noldor. He (and his sons :( ) did commit countless other crimes.

I doubt that most others thought to do some of the things that the Fëanorians did... kinslaying, for example. And treason.

So they were drawn too far into gaining back the silmarills, but that gives them the strength of conviction and loyalty

No matter what your intentions are, if you are drawn to the extreme, you will inevitably work against yourself. I personally find the sons of Fëanor to be tragic characters, guilty and yet victims of their father's pride. Their conviction and loyalty were their downfall.

Say what you want ,I am a true Feanorian, Curse me too if you want. :D

You're not the only Fëanorian here. :p We haven't cursed any of the others yet (I don't think we have at least... :o )

[Embladyne]

No matter what your intentions are, if you are drawn to the extreme, you will inevitably work against yourself. I personally find the sons of Fëanor to be tragic characters, guilty and yet victims of their father's pride. I agree that they are both victims and perpetrators.
Their conviction and loyalty were their downfall. And that's the saddest part of it. Because of their loyalty they were so damned. I'm not sure about convinction, but loyalty certainly, and the more I consider it, the more the tragedy sinks in. :(

[Falagar]

I covered that one, actually. So did Wayfarer. Though... you're more than welcome to attack our logic... :p
Can you sum it up so I can smash your logic into pieces without having to quote passages from several pages back? :p ;) :D
It would be folly to say he was not responsible for anything good. Despite the incredible evil that came out of the Return, I don't think it can be claimed that no good came of it. Fëanor would therefore be as responsible for the good as for the evil.

But, in any case, I think that the evil far outweighs the good.
However, as far as we know, it all ended good. Which means that, by your own logic, Fëanor's actions actually did good. I have to find my bed now but I'll see if I can do a follow-up tomorrow. ;)

[Elemmírë]

All right… Restating old posts for Falagar’s benefit… :) I’m basically eliminating some of the spam and touching on the parts of the thread that deal with retroactive blame:

In my opinion, does retroactive blame should count.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:
He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.
This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

You're all going to love this one:

Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree?

So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees.

If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil.

And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar.

Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion.

Wayfarer added his own thoughts on the idea:

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

Manveru argued that: That's still not Feanor's fault. That's like saying its my fault this thread was started because I was going to post in it.

To which I responded: Well... try to look at it all from a rather fatalistic point of view.

If one of your posts somewhere along the line in this thread starts something serious or somehow changes the way we all think about Tolkien (or makes us go declare war on Mexico :eek: ), then perhaps one could claim that this thread had to be started so that such an event could come to pass.

In which case, if you believe that fate is stuck in stone, and that such a future event had to come to pass, it most certainly is your fault, rather than mine and Chrys's, that this thread was started.

And that's the sort of logic that we're using to blame Fëanor. Of course, it hinges upon the presence of fate and almost complete absence of free will, though I think such is a perfectly logical way to view Middle Earth. :)


Mabass added: Well...Tolkien did write these books and since he did then you know that everything happened for a reason. And if everything happened for a reason(fate) then it is Feanor's fault.

I think all I did was back up what Elemmire was saying...just from a different point of veiw.

[Blackheart]

...They just were the only ones to have any guts to say and think differently.
Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed...

My priests keep saying the same thing... Melkor's actually a great guy.... He's just a little different...

[Nurvingiel]

I have a hard time swallowing the statement that Yavanna made the Two Trees just so Fëanor could make the Silmaril's. However, I am impressed that you managed to make such a cohesive argument out of blaming Fëanor for Melkor's evil.

However, there are flaws in your logic. If you apply retroacive blame, you must also apply retroactive credit.

If Melkor was evil because Fëanor would later exist, then Finwë (Fëanor's father) must only have existed to father Fëanor. But he was also the father of Fingolfin and Finarfin (Fëanor's half-brothers).

Finarfin is the ancestor of several notable elves, including Galadriel, Arwen, Gil-Galad, and your own beloved Finrod.

So Fëanor can't be all that bad can he? :D

Source: Galadriel's Family Tree (http://www.answers.com/topic/galadriel)

[Falagar]

All right… Restating old posts for Falagar’s benefit… :) I’m basically eliminating some of the spam and touching on the parts of the thread that deal with retroactive blame:

In my opinion, does retroactive blame should count.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:

This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.
If you remove free will then nothing is ultimately anyone's fault, because they can't decide anything for themselves. Thus it is Eru's fault for making them do it.
Anyway, Tolkien notes in a passage in one of his letter:
I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels' : a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

You're all going to love this one:

Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree?
Nope. ;) Especially since in the first version of the text it isn't the Silmarilli that causes Melkor to attack the Trees.
So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees.

If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil.

And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar.
Since he was evil already before the making of Arda and the Two Trees I doubt this. There was a need for an evil character to mess a bit around in order to make the story interesting, the whole creation of the myth did not start with or revolved around Fëanor (it actually started with Tuor).

I'll take an example, using the same logic: The Silmarillion originated from the tale of Gondolin. Without the story of Tuor there would never have been any Silmarillion. Tuor's quest to Turgon is thus the most important tale of the Silmarillion, and without it there wouldn't have been any need for anything that happend before him. Which means that Tuor is to blame for absolutely everything which happend before his birth, as well as everything that happend after him.

We could use this argument to blame any of the major characters in the Silmarillion.
Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion.
As pointed to above, free will (in Tolkien's own words) exists. Anyway:

Yavanna created the Trees because they needed light. I don't think you can presume that Yavanna wouldn't have created the Two Trees if Ilúvatar hadn't preordained that Fëanor should exist. As tried to explain above one could do that with several other characters, for example one might say that Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë should come to Valinor, gaze upon their splendour and counsil their kindred to take the trip. Thus Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë would take the blame (and also the Elves for sending them, and the Valar for asking them to come).

Wayfarer added his own thoughts on the idea:

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.
The Pillars also had to be destroyed so that Yavanna could make the Two Trees. Does that make Yavanna responsible for their fate?

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

[snowmane]

problem...i agree with the whole 'feanor sucks' thing,but if it werent for him and his messsing up things, there would have never been a numenor...the fact that it got destroyed is kinda irrelevant..
little bit off the topic, but there you go. :)

plus there is always going to be evil,noone can change that,so fate in my opinion does not work here(agreeing with Falagar).
And if the sim was just a happy story about how the elves lived happy lives,getting everything they wanted and werent corrupted in any way,noone would have read the story and it would have not been that interesting.what made it interesting is the tendancies the elves had,especially in feanors case which made him so rash.(and a little bit on the mad side,like a crazy inventor)
if he hadnt been so tempremental and made the decision he had, none of the stuff would have happened.
however if you used this idea,you would have to blame either his mum or dad for his mentality,cause he would have had to get it off one of them.
(even though his dad was great and had the half-brothers who were fab.)

[brownjenkins]

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

i agree :D

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, good point Fal. Because of Fëanor's son Celegorm, Huan came to Middle-earth and helped Beren and Luthien defeat Morgoth. True, Beren wouldn't have been Sauron's captive without what's-their-heads (two other of Fëanor's sons) but without this action, Luthien wouldn't have taken Morgoth down.

So perhaps without Fëanor's sons, Morgoth would not have been defeated at all! Okay, the Kinslaying is hard to get around, but it still seems that Fëanor's actions resluted in more good than evil, which is easier to take than retroactive blame (or credit).

:D

[Elemmírë]

It's been a really long day (I missed a bus and had to wait over an hour for the next one :( ), and I really don't have the strength to argue with you, Falagar. Or the attention span. :p

Debating free will would be off topic here (not that anyone would notice ;) ), but I'd like to do it sometime. Despite what Tolkien says in the Letters, comments such as Mandos "knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar" (Valaquenta, Silmarillion) make it hard for me to accept.

Since he was evil already before the making of Arda and the Two Trees I doubt this. There was a need for an evil character to mess a bit around in order to make the story interesting, the whole creation of the myth did not start with or revolved around Fëanor (it actually started with Tuor).

Just curious, which book is this in?

We could use this argument to blame any of the major characters in the Silmarillion.

In part, I'll agree with you here. However, I think only the very central characters can be blamed, Fëanor, Túrin, Tuor... perhaps Beren?

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

You have to understand that blaming Fëanor for everything that came before was only done so as to not leave any gaps in this crazy little "project" of ours (though I'll be working on it again as soon as I can think straight ;) ). In the end, though, what happened afterwards is undeniably at least in part, Fëanor's fault.

Yes, by my logic, Fëanor's actions did good. I didn't add it to my post earlier, since it was slightly different from what we were discussing, but I would hazard to claim that in the end, even Morgoth's actions did some good. Here we get to the marvellous little debate over means vs. ends. The final result was good (at least in part, the fact that the majority of the Noldor had already been wiped out notwithstanding), but this doesn't invalidate the evil things that Fëanor did.

And, Falagar, by your logic, we couldn't claim that Fëanor's actions did good. There were lots of other people involved, most of whom had far more obviously positive influence in the events.

[Falagar]

It's been a really long day (I missed a bus and had to wait over an hour for the next one :( ), and I really don't have the strength to argue with you, Falagar. Or the attention span. :p
Neither do I, I'll just leave a few quick comments. :)

Debating free will would be off topic here (not that anyone would notice ;) ), but I'd like to do it sometime. Despite what Tolkien says in the Letters, comments such as Mandos "knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar" (Valaquenta, Silmarillion) make it hard for me to accept.
Then one also has to accept that all the evil (as well as the good) came from Eru, and thus Eru can't really be a 'good' God.



Just curious, which book is this in?
Book of Lost Tales, the Fall of Gondolin is in part two (and remains one of his most brilliant texts)

In part, I'll agree with you here. However, I think only the very central characters can be blamed, Fëanor, Túrin, Tuor... perhaps Beren?
Hah, I'm sure I can get something on for example Thorondor as well! :p

And, Falagar, by your logic, we couldn't claim that Fëanor's actions did good. There were lots of other people involved, most of whom had far more obviously positive influence in the events.
There were some positive effects, but true, most of his actions were evil. I haven't claimed he ever did much good anyway. I still love him though. ;)

[Elemmírë]

And now I shall officially spam my own thread... :p

Then one also has to accept that all the evil (as well as the good) came from Eru, and thus Eru can't really be a 'good' God.

I am assuming that every Christian here is about to jump on me for my heretical belief that Eru/God is not entirely good. :evil: Nothing in the Letters will convince me otherwise. Since Eru technically is the Christian god (unless I've misread everything), then I have every right to transfer my ideas about that God onto Eru. ;)

There were some positive effects, but true, most of his actions were evil. I haven't claimed he ever did much good anyway. I still love him though. ;)

Ah yes, I remember now. You are one of the true Fëanorian crowd. I must admit it's nice to have a true supporter around with whom to argue and debate. :)

I myself adore several of his sons... that's part of the reason I hate Fëanor himself. I can't forgive him for what he did to them.

[edited] Post 181. :eek: I am stunned by the size to which this thread has somehow managed to grow... :D

[Nurvingiel]

I bet you'll blame Fëanor for that too! (The spam...)

Okay, for the sake of agument all free-will debates can be ignored.

However, I still don't see how, by your logic, you can apply retroactive blame, and not retroactive credit.

Similairly, more than only Fëanor's actions are involved in some of the bad things he was part of. He was to blame for a lot, but not every single thing that went wrong in Arda, that's my take on it.

Sorry you missed the bus though buddy! *comforts*

Elemmire's handy new excuse: Sorry I'm late, Fëanor made me miss the bus! What do you mean how? He tricked me and I was captured by Sauron!

Fëanor ate my homework!

Or maybe better... Fëanor used my lab results to make the palintiri! That's why I can't turn it in...

[Elemmírë]

I bet you'll blame Fëanor for that too! (The spam...)


Hm... Well, since it is his fault this thread was created (mine...? what do you mean, mine...? :eek: Au contraire!), it technically is his fault that I'm now spamming it! :p

However, I still don't see how, by your logic, you can apply retroactive blame, and not retroactive credit.

Ah. I suppose I didn't touch on that. No, retroactive credit can definitely be applied too, where it's due. But... just as the real reasons why he can be blamed (;)) outnumber the reasons he can be praised, I think more bad in the past can possibly be attributed to him than good.

Similairly, more than only Fëanor's actions are involved in some of the bad things he was part of. He was to blame for a lot, but not every single thing that went wrong in Arda, that's my take on it.

Honestly, that's my take on it too. For the sake of the thread, though, I've tried to prove that it is everything that's his fault. I love a good, hopeless debate. I'm sure some of my compatriots believe it ;), but for myself, I agree with you.

Sorry you missed the bus though buddy! *comforts*

Thanks. :( I didn't have a bus schedule on me, and someone said that it would leave at 2:30. Well, they were wrong and it had already left at 2:10. Which meant I was stranded for an hour since the buses don't enjoy running on Sundays. :(

Elemmire's handy new excuse: Sorry I'm late, Fëanor made me miss the bus! What do you mean how? He tricked me and I was captured by Sauron!

Fëanor ate my homework!

Or maybe better... Fëanor used my lab results to make the palintiri! That's why I can't turn it in...

I wonder what would happen if I tried one of those... :p

I suppose it could be Fëanor's fault I missed the bus, though. ;) I think I was reading Falagar's post about Fëanor instead of looking for a bus schedule. ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Oh... I slightly missed the point of the thread. Heh.
:o

Getting into the spirit of things...

It's Fëanor's fault that Denethor went mad, because he made the palintiri!

(Yeah... not Sauron's fault. Fëanor's.)

[Elemmírë]

Oh... I slightly missed the point of the thread. Heh.
:o

:eek: Pray tell, what did you think we were doing? :p

Getting into the spirit of things...

It's Fëanor's fault that Denethor went mad, because he made the palintiri!

(Yeah... not Sauron's fault. Fëanor's.)

Heh. I never thought of that one. Of course, we don't know for sure if Fëanor made the palantÃ*ri, but...

Ye gods! I'm about to start arguing against myself! :eek:

But, I must be fair...

Is a sword evil because it can be used to kill? In it's nature: no, it is neither good nor evil. It's the same with the palantÃ*ri, methinks. They could be used for good or for evil. Denethor used his foolishly, and thus the consequences are upon his own head.

And yet... had Fëanor not theoretically created the palantÃ*ri, than Denethor would not have gone mad.

I think it is Fëanor's fault only in that he gave Denethor the opportunity to drive himself crazy. Of course, that can sometimes be a serious misdeed...

[Minielin]

Is a sword evil because it can be used to kill? In it's nature: no, it is neither good nor evil. Unless it's Anglachel?

[brownjenkins]

Unless it's Anglachel?

good point! :D

[Elemmírë]

good point! :D

Bad example, I suppose. :p However...

"The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it." So is it even the sword itself that's evil?

Anyway... Anglachel did good as well as evil...

Túrin did at least one good thing with it. :evil:

[Wayfarer]

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time. :p

[Pytt]

Hah, I'm sure I can get something on for example Thorondor as well! :p


Is the pick of character just a slight bit incoincidence? :mad:
I think yoou will not! Thorondor has just done great deeds, so piss off!

And besides, nice this thread moves on a bit :p

[Minielin]

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. Hence the question mark... However, I think it's fair to say that it did have some negative influence on the actual mind of the bearer.

If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time. :p Hehe.

[Elemmírë]

If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time. :p

I'm trying to picture what Túrin's story would have been like if the sword was a pacifist...

So far it's quite amusing. :p

[Kellquenti]

Oh dear :( been on COE for a few days and all is chaos! never mind :rolleyes: I'll go back there, After letting everyone know of my loyalty to everything Noldor!! :evil: See you all in a couple of days to see what's happening :D and to wind you all up again :)

[Falagar]

You're a member of Council of Elrond, Kell? What's going on over there?
Is the pick of character just a slight bit incoincidence? :mad:
I think yoou will not! Thorondor has just done great deeds, so piss off!

And besides, nice this thread moves on a bit :p
It was the first semi-important character in the Silm I could think of. Might not be entirely coincidental. ;)

[Attalus]

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time. :pHave you ever played Baldur's Gate II with the Talking Sword Lilacor? It was quite annoying. ;)

[Kellquenti]

You're a member of Council of Elrond, Kell? What's going on over there?

It was the first semi-important character in the Silm I could think of. Might not be entirely coincidental. ;)
sorry, COE is addictive! Nothing chaotic going on there, just some great RPGs (Chaos is here!! :eek: ) I shall check in frequently here to fight Feanor's corner! Ta for asking :D

[Genealogy_dude]

Yo Ellemire. I'm here. Nice thread. As you know I'm all for Feanor bashing. What if someone made a Feanor-shaped pinata? That would be awesome!

[Embladyne]

Yeah, a piñata would be awesome...heh heh.

Anglachel may or may not have had a bad influence on Turin, but it was Turin who was to blame for the evils he commited. And yes, Ellie, it was a good deed the sword did when it ended Turin's life.

[Elemmírë]

Yo Ellemire. I'm here. Nice thread. As you know I'm all for Feanor bashing. What if someone made a Feanor-shaped pinata? That would be awesome!

I'm candy obsessed as it is... :o

Well, welcome to our little corner of the world...

Now you can tell us why you hate Fëanor so. :D

And Embladyne, leave Túrin alone. I have a hunch that you're soon going to be dealing with an ardent Túrin lover... And it will be entirely our faults because we introduced her to the Silmarillion in the first place... Perhaps I can still make her go for Finrod... might have more luck with Maedhros... :p

[Embladyne]

I promise to not bother Turin as long as no-one bothers my Tuor. That's my final offer.

I really hope that I don't know who you're talking about, but I'm afraid that I do. Sad, and I thought we could be good friends after all. I'm going to have to give a good talking to that girl....

[Genealogy_dude]

Yes well, thanks for the welcome. Well, he was just such a moron. I mean, sure I bet the Silmarills were nice and all, but going and slaying his kinsmen, getting all the way to the sea, just to have only a few ships, and then leaving those Noldor behind to fend for themselves through Helcaraxe? That's just a little possession issue if you ask me.

[Elemmírë]

Yes well, thanks for the welcome. Well, he was just such a moron. I mean, sure I bet the Silmarills were nice and all, but going and slaying his kinsmen, getting all the way to the sea, just to have only a few ships, and then leaving those Noldor behind to fend for themselves through Helcaraxe? That's just a little possession issue if you ask me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Completely and utterly psychotic.

I feel bad for his sons (except the 3 C's).

Which is why I hate him all the more.

[Genealogy_dude]

nice one ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I have a new theory. How about 'Blame Miriel'.
If it wasn't for her stubborness about remaining dead then Finwe would never have married Indis, Feanor wouldn't have become sour towards Fingolfin and his 'host'. So in a way you can Blame Miriel for making Feanor the 'bad egg' he was and we can blame her for all of the stuff we can blame Feanor for.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

sneaky bump it's all feanor's fault

[Beren3000]

*shudder* I just realised a horrible truth! If all the conflicts of ME could be blamed on Fëanor, then we actually have to thank him for the entertaining stories we all know and love! :eek:













Or not!
:D

[CrazySquirrel]

Do you all really prefer dull low-abiding elves like Ingwe & Olwe?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

we like the vanyar and the teleri, and turgon only of the noldor

[DISCLAIMER: This post represents only the views of me, and no one else]

[Manveru]

I have a new theory. How about 'Blame Miriel'.
If it wasn't for her stubborness about remaining dead then Finwe would never have married Indis, Feanor wouldn't have become sour towards Fingolfin and his 'host'. So in a way you can Blame Miriel for making Feanor the 'bad egg' he was and we can blame her for all of the stuff we can blame Feanor for.

why don't we blame iluvatar for creating the world

[Beren3000]

why don't we blame iluvatar for creating the world
Or Tolkien for writing about it! :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Or Tolkien for writing about it! :D
heresy! fear, fire, foes! awake!! burn the witch!!!

but how do you know she is a with?

because...she...looks..like one....?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

She turned me into a newt.

[Beren3000]

So much for freedom of speech.... :rolleyes:

:D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

She turned me into a newt.
i got better

[Lenya]

Blame Fëanor? Amen!

[Lotesse]

It is NOT Feanor's fault that he was created with the gifts he had, and born with character and all that fire inside. He lived out what he was destined to. If you wanna go around slinging blame, then blame Iluvatar.

[Lenya]

No. Every man has the gift of choice. Feanor chose to be a very bad man. You're gonna have to live with that. ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is NOT Feanor's fault that he was created with the gifts he had, and born with character and all that fire inside. He lived out what he was destined to. If you wanna go around slinging blame, then blame Iluvatar.
Or we can blame Fëanor for making Illuvatar see that absolute evil does exist and that he could do nothing about it! ;)

[Lenya]

Or we can blame Fëanor for making Illuvatar see that absolute evil does exist and that he could do nothing about it! ;)

:D I like that.

[ecthelion]

We have freedom of speech here. You're all free to blame feanor for the evil of ME. He deserves it. But don't say all these dreadful things about poor Melko who was ensnared by the lust-filled silmarilli

[katya]

I think that if you think in a purely cause and effect way then a lot of things are Fëanor's fault. But I don't really believe in anything being anyone's fault. Surely it wasn't Fëanor's fault that he was born? He didn't choose his personality. If he did it was only because already existant parts of his personality compelled him to change himself. He was only acting in the only way he ever could. Whether you believe in determinism or fatalism that is true. I think Fëanor was a jerk and an idiot and a lot of the things he did (especially where it causes trouble for others) make me mad. Still... (to semi-quote Brandon Heat)

He's got a lot of pride. Fëanor was a true man. Er, elf.

[brownjenkins]

well-put katya :)

[Lotesse]

You HAVE made very good points, Katya, but Feanor was NOT an idiot. He knew what he was doing, even if his overwhelming emotions prevented him from being able to "do the right thing". I personally believe he always regretted burning up those beautiful ships, and betraying all his followers like that, but after he did it, he couldn't undo his actions. He had to live with it, with the knowledge of what he'd allowed himself to do. I don't believe in playing the blame game, because - as Jesus says somewhere in the bible - let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And Iluvatar can't cast that stone; it was he who began the whole scenario by creating those he created with gifts/characters/abilities/desires/emotions that would lead to certain events coming to be. Iluvatar created evil as well as good. He must have known how the entire experiment would turn out, from the onset to its finish.

[katya]

What I meant was he didn't make very good decisions strategically speaking. For example, seemed to me that it didn't even occur to him how he was going to get to Middle Earth until they were already well on their way in the journey.

[Lotesse]

I know, it's because he was letting his emotions rule him, instead of thinking rationally.

[katya]

I agree. In a way I like that about him.

I was thinking it'd be cute if someone made like a website about this thread. I've seen similar things like there was one about saving the cactaurs, from final fantasy. Just a thought.

[Lotesse]

What website, katya? Tell me more, enquiring Feanorians want to know ;) :evil: ...

[katya]

You mean the cactaur one? I discovered it a long time ago and I don't know where it is anymore. Basically, it was urging people to stop hunting cactaurs, which are now endangered due to overhunting because of the lure of 20 AP. It was really cute.

[Lotesse]

I really love the idea of cactaurs - I have a beautiful, rather large cactus in a pot, and I can definitely see "him" as sentient...
Here's some cactaur stuff:

http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=5745

Anybody know where I can get to the root of cactaurs, so to speak? I'm curious to know who first conceived of them.

[katya]

I like cactaurs too. But I'm partial to moombas. (Kyaaaaa, Laguna is so coool! <3 )

I feel bad going off topic. I don't know how many people still care about this thread though. Someone should think of the most random things possible and try to blame Fëanor. In the way that Raskolnikov's friend in Crime and Punishment made a bet that he could prove something about someone's facial hair was a direct result of the height of some building. I forgot the details. See what I'm saying? A prize for the best attempt.

[Lotesse]

Aahh, then I shouldn't be on this thread - I get tired of everyone blaming Feanor for everything wrong that happens under the middle-earth sun.

[brownjenkins]

yeah... when it comes right down to it, it was all eru's fault ;)

[Lotesse]

Absolutely.

[katya]

But in a way, blaming Fëanor for everything, even things that he obviously had no part in, sort of makes him seem more innocent. It's like proving that you can blame anything on anyone if you try hard enough, even if it's not true. Therefore, all evidence against Fëanor becomes invalid.

[Lotesse]

I like the way you think, Katya!

[katya]

Thanks. :)

[Andúril]

I blame Fëanor for assuming all the blame. Or something. It sounded better in my head.

[ecthelion]

I blame F for the unmatchdom of hot-dog eight-packs and six-pacs of the buns they are supposed to go into
Its because of his hiding the light of the silmarils and reason from the peoples of ME

[Lotesse]

Ecthelion, THAT was good! :D :D Talk about creatively obscure... Poor Feanor, gets blamed for EVERYthing! :(

[Lenya]

'cause he deserves it. ALL of it :evil:

[Lotesse]

Lenya! I didn't know you were an anti-Feanorian! :eek:

[Lenya]

If anti-Feanorian means I don't like Feanor, then yes, of course I am!

PS: I just can't keep trac of the names connected with Feanor and the emotions he stirs up :p

[katya]

Feanorophile. Does that one exist yet?

[Lotesse]

Feanorophile. Does that one exist yet?


I don't know, but it should! It may sound a bit more mellifluous, though, if it were "Feanorphile"; without the "o" it rolls off the tongue better methinks. I'd fall into that category, for real! :)

[katya]

I don't know.. I kind of like it without the "o" but I think "Feanorophile" rolls off the toungue better, at least to me. Whatever. And so do I. :)

[Lotesse]

This originally was supposed to be a thread that illogically and wantonly blames Feanor for anything and everything, so... I'm sure all the anti-feanorians will enjoy blaming Feanor for Hurricane Katrina. :rolleyes:

[brownjenkins]

This originally was supposed to be a thread that illogically and wantonly blames Feanor for anything and everything, so... I'm sure all the anti-feanorians will enjoy blaming Feanor for Hurricane Katrina. :rolleyes:

he did burn all those boats... imagine if they had those in new orleans! ;)

[Elemmírë]

This originally was supposed to be a thread that illogically and wantonly blames Feanor for anything and everything, so... I'm sure all the anti-feanorians will enjoy blaming Feanor for Hurricane Katrina. :rolleyes:

The long-absent thread starter makes an appearance. :D

This thread was originally a joke and an exercise in seeing how far we could stretch logic.

For the record, I'm no longer quite so anti-Feanor. I've discovered that I have way too much in common with him. :p And I adore several of his sons. ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

LM, your back. Hiya, I haven't spoken to you in ages. Not Anti-Feanor? Next you'll be telling me you like the C's!

[Elemmírë]

LM, your back. Hiya, I haven't spoken to you in ages. Not Anti-Feanor? Next you'll be telling me you like the C's!

NEVER. :mad:

I would never be able to show my face to SGH if that was the case. That would have to mean that the Finrod love was completely gone. Which should never happen. :p

...though some of those Feanorions are fine, and certainly doomed enough for my liking. ;)