Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

[Spock]

...I agree, 95% :D

[azalea]

Here are some more of my thoughts about Snape/ Dumbledore:

Why would Dumbledore be pleading with Snape, then? Snape had just walked out the door and looked at him. If Dumbledore trusted him so much, then why would he automatically think that he was about to betray him? It doesn't make sense.

Why did Snape stun Flitwick? Was it to keep him, Hermione and Luna safe by keeping them out of the way of the battle? If not, and he's so evil, why didn't he just kill them all?

Why did Dumbledore finally allow Snape to have the DADA post? We know that D'dore knew the position was "cursed" in that no one had held it for more than a year. So he must have known that Snape could only hold it for that year.
This leads me to believe that Snape was lying to Bellatrix when he said what everyone seemed to think: that D'dore didn't want him to be close to the Dark Arts because he might slip back into his old ways. He trusted him, and I don't think Dumbledore's trust was without a strong reason (ie, there is more to the story than we or any character have been told). Dumbledore also wouldn't have offered trust with limits.

I think the real reason is that if he were to give him the position, he knew that it would have been Snape's last year, and he wanted to keep him at Hogwarts. But this year, there was a reason DD knew it would be Snape's final year, and so he was able to let him have the position. I think the reason DD knew is because the events at the end of this year were forseen as a possibility (not exactly, as in a vision, but as a conclusion reached with the information DD had available to him).

I think that Snape had told DD that Voldemort had ordered Draco to kill him, and that Dumbledore knew Snape would likely need to do it in order to save Draco's life. It seemed obvious to Snape, Narcissa and Bellatrix that Draco would not be able to do it. It doesn't seem that Snape told DD about the Vow, but wouldn't have been necessary if DD had already asked that he do the job if it came down to it.

[durinsbane2244]

i still would like to believe they switched places, in rereading it i found that it said:
(not exact)

he leapt into the water with the STRENGTH AND AGILITY OF A MAN YOUNGER THAN HIM.
though i know it says it a lot, thats mostly just with quickness, not actual physical activity.

also, i just had a thought that i know isnt true, i say again before you all jump at my throat, I KNOW THIS ISNT TRUE! what if dumbledore is weaker than voldemort and the only reason it says that hes the only wizard V ever feared was because DD scared him into submission as a child, and V didnt kill im so he could make everyone think he was weaker than he really was, a useful technique, for he could than bring out his true power when the time was right. again, i know this isnt true.

[Lief Erikson]

Why did Snape stun Flitwick? Was it to keep him, Hermione and Luna safe by keeping them out of the way of the battle? If not, and he's so evil, why didn't he just kill them all?
I agree with a large amount of your post, and I too believe that Snape is still good. I just want to comment on this bit, though.

Snape could have stunned Flitwick rather than killed him because he thought there was still a chance Malfoy's scheme wouldn't work. If Malfoy's scheme collapsed, Snape wouldn't have wanted his loyalties exposed.

[Falagar]

Well, I'm not quite sure I agree there.Though there may still be a chance the scheme wouldn't work, Snape didn't seem to care much. The first thing he did after having left Flitwick, Hermione and Luna was to blow his cover, running away with the DE's. And either way, stunning Flitwick would put him in a bad spot if it failed, and with Dumbeldore gone there wouldn't be many left to protect him (if they failed to kill Dumbeldore, then his chances would increase, but he'd have attracted too much attention.

[Lief Erikson]

Good points. Apparently I didn't think that through sufficiently.

[inked]

Well, Falagar, the real issue is, as usual, who is blowing whom. To assure the cover with Voldemort, Snape was constrained to act as he did. This leads to his apparent defection from the Order until you get to the scene with Harry where he INSTRUCTS him in needed improvenments in Harry's skill. Harry will eventually understand the implication of this. Snape is a good guy under all that machination! The life of a double agent is a misery. The greatest clue is Snape's response to Harry's allegation of cowardice. Snape is certainly no coward whatever else he may be. To kill Dumbledore at D's request is not the act of a coward. Nor was the embrasure of the Unbreakable Vow in pursuit of his status among the DE's. Snape is literally walking the wire over the chasm. Not a coward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Finrod Felagund]

[QUOTE=sun-star]He was at the funeral, but not mentioned by name - on page 598 of the UK edition, among a long list of names it says there were "some people whom Harry knew merely by sight, such as the barman of the Hog's Head". It's just a brief reference because Harry still doesn't know he's Dumbledore's brother and therefore thinks he's not important.



I disagree...Remember in OotP, Moody showed Harry the picture of the original order...Dubledore's brother was in that picture...and if I'm not wrong...he does resemble his brother somewhat.

[Falagar]

Well, Falagar, the real issue is, as usual, who is blowing whom. To assure the cover with Voldemort, Snape was constrained to act as he did. This leads to his apparent defection from the Order until you get to the scene with Harry where he INSTRUCTS him in needed improvenments in Harry's skill. Harry will eventually understand the implication of this. Snape is a good guy under all that machination! The life of a double agent is a misery. The greatest clue is Snape's response to Harry's allegation of cowardice. Snape is certainly no coward whatever else he may be. To kill Dumbledore at D's request is not the act of a coward. Nor was the embrasure of the Unbreakable Vow in pursuit of his status among the DE's. Snape is literally walking the wire over the chasm. Not a coward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My point exactly. :) Snape had to act as he did not to blow his cover for Voldemort, but didn't do anything more than what was required because he's not really on Voldie's side.

[King of The Istari]

Harry's too young to die.

finally some one who belives as I believe Harry shouldn't die

like I said earlier it shows more writing skill if JK can pull of a satisfactroy ending whith Harry living, than taking the easy way out and killing him off

[King of The Istari]

OMG I've just had a brain wave about harry being a horcrux and Harry's possible death

I've just read the last couple of chapters is OOTP again and the prophecy states:
"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live whilst the other survives"
So if to defeat voldemort harry had to kill himself because he was the final horcrux it would in effect contradict the prophacy, because the prophacy says either must die by the hand of the other which sounds like it means by a wand or as a concuquence of an action of the other, and,
for none can live whilst the other survives sounds like it means one MUST Survive to complete the prophacy, if they were to both die it would almost certainly be included in the prophacy, and would say something like
one must give his life to secure the demise of the other
(which it doesn't)

[Elfmaster XK]

OMG I've just had a brain wave about harry being a horcrux and Harry's possible death

I've just read the last couple of chapters is OOTP again and the prophecy states:
"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live whilst the other survives"
So if to defeat voldemort harry had to kill himself because he was the final horcrux it would in effect contradict the prophacy, because the prophacy says either must die by the hand of the other which sounds like it means by a wand or as a concuquence of an action of the other, and,
for none can live whilst the other survives sounds like it means one MUST Survive to complete the prophacy, if they were to both die it would almost certainly be included in the prophacy, and would say something like
one must give his life to secure the demise of the other
(which it doesn't)

I disagree. If it was one should kill the other and then live I think she would have worded the prophecy differently. This way what she wrote means either harry or voldemort can die at each other's hand as you said.

BUT..either also has this meaning: "2. Each of two; the one and the other; both; -- formerly,
also, each of any number.

His flowing hair In curls on either cheek played.
--Milton."

So it can mean they both die. Or even (it won't happen) that Voldie kills Harry and lives to terrorise the world.

As for the second part. None can live whilst the other survives. That doesn't say one will survive and live. I take this to mean Voldie is surviving, so Harry cannot live. Now for Harry to live V must no longer survive. Likewise for V to survive then Harry must not live. But it doesn't say one WILL survive. Or even imply that. If both died the prophecy would be complete. The one who can destroy the dark lord was chosen and marked, and neither lived while the other survived because neither survived.

I don't want Harry to die. But I think it is possible and makes sense.

[King of The Istari]

. Now for Harry to live V must no longer survive.
But how can harry die kiling voldemort?
it says for harry to Live voldemort must Die, So I myself read that as like I've said one will win and survive whilst the other loses and dies so either harry kills voldemort and lives or voldemort kills harry and voldemort lives,

[Rían]

just finished reading the thread - am looking forward to getting my copy at the library!

[Lief Erikson]

Huh? :eek: You read all the spoilers possible and then read the book??? :eek: You're just like my younger brother ;) :p.

[sun-star]

I disagree...Remember in OotP, Moody showed Harry the picture of the original order...Dubledore's brother was in that picture...and if I'm not wrong...he does resemble his brother somewhat.

Good point. I'd forgotten that. I suppose it's possible Harry doesn't remember seeing Aberforth in the picture, since he was concentrating on his parents at the time...

[Khamûl]

I agree with you, XK.

Incidentally, is this the picture of Marvolo's ring that's on your UK edition?
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/galleries/Books/hbp_uk_detail.jpg

[Elfmaster XK]

But how can harry die kiling voldemort?
it says for harry to Live voldemort must Die, So I myself read that as like I've said one will win and survive whilst the other loses and dies so either harry kills voldemort and lives or voldemort kills harry and voldemort lives,

If Harry is a horcrux then he can easily die while killing Voldemort. And yes is says for Harry to live Voldemort must die. But it doesn't say IF Voldemort dies Harry Will stay alive.

The prophecy is ambiguous, and while what you say makes sense, what I say is also not wrong in terms of the prophecy.

I agree with you, XK.

Incidentally, is this the picture of Marvolo's ring that's on your UK edition?
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hog...p_uk_detail.jpg

Thanks :D Yes it is. Funny, I was under the impression the ring was more square than that. Must just look like it on the book because it's only small. But that is the one. :)

[King of The Istari]

I've just ad a thought about the deaths in harry potter and the number oh Horcruxes left and I thought this would be intresting

if at each horcrux he could comunicate with one of the people in his life who have died, so sirius helps him with one horcrux, his mother helps with one, his father helps with one and cedric helps with one and then finally somehow Dumbledore helps him in some way defeat voldemort or more likley give Harry the power to defeat him

only a theory but an intresting one, 5 people in harry's life have died and there are 5 pieces of voldemorts soul left to destroy (including voldemort himself)

I repeat this is only a theory!

I spoilered it Just in case someone has been living on the moon and doesn't know who dies in HBP

[Spock]

....just back from my trip to the moon... :D thanks for doing the spoiler this way, really.

[Elfmaster XK]

I've just ad a thought about the deaths in harry potter and the number oh Horcruxes left and I thought this would be intresting

if at each horcrux he could comunicate with one of the people in his life who have died, so sirius helps him with one horcrux, his mother helps with one, his father helps with one and cedric helps with one and then finally somehow Dumbledore helps him in some way defeat voldemort or more likley give Harry the power to defeat him

only a theory but an intresting one, 5 people in harry's life have died and there are 5 pieces of voldemorts soul left to destroy (including voldemort himself)

I repeat this is only a theory!

I spoilered it Just in case someone has been living on the moon and doesn't know who dies in HBP


Can you clarify what you mean? I don't understand 'at each horcrux.' And how would they help him? How would they contact him to begin with?

[Nurvingiel]

Spoilers for HBP obviously follow...







I like King of the Istari's theory. I'm not sure how it would work though... maybe something similar to Priori Incantatum? (Though not exactly the same.)

I think by 'each Horcrux', KotI means the five5 remaining Horcruxes Dumbledore theorized still exist.

Harry also needs help from alive, and powerful, wizards - as many as possible! He needs Hermione to help him figure out where the other Horcruxes are, and if there are indeed five left. As much as he wants to keep other people away from danger (as evidenced by his break-up with Ginny), there is no way he can do this by himself.


I also think Snape supported and still supports Dumbledore, and Harry will end up needing his help too. Now that Dumbledore is gone, there is no remaining 'good guy' who knows as much about Voldemort and his activities. The question is... will he be able to find and communicate with Snape? And more difficultly, will they be able to work together?

Personally, I really think Snape needs to grow up and get over himself. Be bitter if you must Snape, but there's much more at stake than a rivalry with a man over 15 years dead. From the memory we saw in OotP, James Potter appears to be a self-centred, bullying git. But as much as Snape (mostly unfairly) despises Harry because of James, he must realize they are both on the same side. He's supposed to be the adult here, it's up to him to take the initiative. It might be too late now though, since Harry is quite sure he saw Snape murder Dumbledore in cold blood.

More about the memory of Snape though... after Lily gets James to put Snape down, Snape calls her a filthy mudblood (or something very mean). I thought that meant he was bigoted, but now we know he called himself the Half-Blood Prince. Now I think that he was angry and lashing out, and wanted to look tough to preserve what remained of his dignity. I don't think he was bigoted now, since he seems to be proud of his Muggle heritage as much as his magical one.

And does anyone else find it ironic that the most Harry ever learned from Snape was from Snape's old textbook, where the lesson was not accompanied by insults and snide remarks? Harry could actually concentrate on Snape's words since he wasn't trying to supress pent-up rage. I think it's also interesting that Hermione compared Harry and Snape's DADA teaching methods. I think those two have more in common than they'd ever care to admit in a billion years.

I also wonder if Harry went back to the Room of Requirement to get the textbook back 'off-screen', similar how he got the Marauders' Map back from Crouch Jr (fake Moody's) office 'off-screen' in Goblet of Fire? I think this time, though, Dumbledore's death pushed everything else out of his mind.

[Lief Erikson]

Personally, I really think Snape needs to grow up and get over himself. Be bitter if you must Snape, but there's much more at stake than a rivalry with a man over 15 years dead. From the memory we saw in OotP, James Potter appears to be a self-centred, bullying git. But as much as Snape (mostly unfairly) despises Harry because of James, he must realize they are both on the same side.
Snape has always let his personal dislike for Harry take second place to doing what's necessary for the cause. He protected Harry in book 1. He used Harry's information to save his life again in book 5. He also tried to prevent Harry using the Dark Arts in book 6.

The only time when I have seen Snape let his dislike of Harry supercede his duty is the time when he stopped giving Harry Oclumency lessons.



One of the things I'm happiest about in book 6, is how so many things happened in it that I thought would be reserved for book 7! Dumbledore's death and the battle in the castle were things I thought we'd see at the end of book 7. The break-up with Ginny also seemed like it might be more of a book 7 thing (not that I anticipated it). I was lamenting over the fact that we almost certainly wouldn't get to see anything of Harry outside of Hogwarts, but I WAS WRONG!!! :D :D So I am really happy.

[Tessar]

So, after reading the book (got it this afternoon and finished it in about 6 1/2 hours), I have a thought/question--forgive me if it's been asked before:

Why did Dumbledor put Snape in the DA position?

Did he do it in an attempt to get rid of Snape, or was it an attempt to prevent further harm to Dark Arts teachers?

Remember he said that every teacher had left after a year of teaching ever since Voldimort tried to get the job--clearly there was some sort of curse put over the job (that old long-running 'joke'. Who knew it was the truth?).

So did he expect something to happen to Snape, and he wanted to get rid of Snape, or was he hoping that since Snape was a Death Eater, Snape would be protected, and no more D.A. teachers would be hurt or killed from the curse?

[Khamûl]

More about the memory of Snape though... after Lily gets James to put Snape down, Snape calls her a filthy mudblood (or something very mean). I thought that meant he was bigoted, but now we know he called himself the Half-Blood Prince. Now I think that he was angry and lashing out, and wanted to look tough to preserve what remained of his dignity. I don't think he was bigoted now, since he seems to be proud of his Muggle heritage as much as his magical one.I heard an interesting theory related to that -- why is that memory Snape's worst memory? The first thought is that it's because he was thoroughly embarassed by James and Sirius. But it seems plausible to me that it's because he called Lily a 'mudblood'. The rest of the theory goes like this: We know from Slughorn that they were both very good in potions. Lily seems like the compassionate type, so it's quite possible that they became friends. Snape developed an unrequited love from this quiet friendship. He did lash out in anger, and if you'll notice, Lily seems surprised. It would also make his hatred for James stronger because he ended up with Lily. I think it's possible to take this a step further. We know that Snape was the one that overheard Trelawney's prophecy to Dumbledore and told the Dark Lord. This led to the murder of James and Lily. Perhaps the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so much has something to do with Snape feeling partly responsible for Lily's death.

This is purely conjecture, but it seems to be worth consideration to me.

[Nurvingiel]

I think that's an excellent theory Khamul. :) I hope Rowling expands on this on book 7.

I completely agree, except I don't necessarily think Snape was romantically in love with Lily. I think his comment would have severely damaged their friendship, which was probably very special to him. (If the theory is true.)

One issue with the theory, is why the completely hatred for Harry? If Snape liked Lily, as a friend or otherwise, he must realize that Harry is 50% Lily's. I mean, I know wizards don't learn biology, but jeez... :D

Snape's hatred of Harry is almost completely irrational, and not fully explained. Maybe Harry, who looks like his father but with his mother's eyes, reminds Snape of everything he regrets about Lily, and everything he hates about James. Plus, as you pointed out, he's from a union that must have tortured him. (Assuming your theory is true, of course.)

Why did Dumbledor put Snape in the DA position?
Good question. I think that Snape is completely trustworthy, and Dumbledore needed a competent, non-disguised Death Eater to teach DADA. Every passing year, it becomes more and more crucial that they get a decent teacher in the subject. Umbridge's appointment showed that Dumbledore had, in fact, lost the total control of the school, which he had before.

Obviously, Dumbledore was too busy to jump in and teach the subject himself. But why did he hire Lockhart in Harry's second year? I'm sure he knew at the outset that Lockhart was a fraud. His comment at the end of the book, "Impaled on your own sword Gilderoy?" drives this home. What possible good did this appointment accomplish aside from making everyone buy a load of expensive coaster-- I mean Lockhart's books, and giving Hermione the chance to practice a Freezing Charm? He might has well have discontinued the class.
I felt bad for Harry when his best and favourite class was ruined, but at the same time, it's about friggin time they had a decent prof after Proffessor Lupin got sacked.

I wish there had been more page time for Snape's and Harry's interactions in the class, but I suppose it would have been more of the usual.

Speaking of Lupin, I wish he had gotten more page time too! Imagine having to spy on the werewolves Voldemort had recruited, including the awful and loathesome Fenrir Greyback!

Last comment... Fenrir and Lupin (100% of named werewolves in the series) both have wolfish names. Imagine Remus's parents, surprised and saddened that their young son, of all the people in the world, would be bitten by a werewolf. Then they realized their last name was 'Lupin' - all Greyback had to do was look then up in the phone book.
And Fenrir... I wonder how his parents chose that name. "Let's give him a strong name... like... Fenrir! Yes, we could name our son after the huge wolf that devours Ragnorak at the end of the world(1). Now son, don't grow up to be a lunatic werewolf or anything..."
I often enjoy Rowling's name symbology, like Weasley. Lupin always seemed a bit much to me (cuz he's, duuuh, a werewolf), but add Fenrir (which admittedly, I only found out about later) and worst of all, Sanguini for the only vampire, and I think she was bludgeoning us a bit too hard in the last book. Sanguini, aaaaaa! I'll hazard to say that's the worst name ever.
I still love the books though, of course.

(1) Please forgive my abuse of Norse mythology in getting that a bit wrong.

[Elfmaster XK]

I think by 'each Horcrux', KotI means the five5 remaining Horcruxes Dumbledore theorized still exist.

First of all if there are any letters missing from words in this post it's because my keyboard doesn't work properly anymore! Too much writing.

No, I meant what did he mean by at each horcrux. Forgive me if I'm being pedantic, but I actually think that's important. Did he mean when they find it, and are in the place it was left? I'm sure the enchantments would stop any magic being done to destroy it there. But once they have it out then obviusly they are destroy-able.

Personally I doubt this theory, because once they're dead I believe they can't help Harry in any way other than to offer advice. I'm not sure what appened in Priori Incantatum. I don't think the ghosts actually did anything to the DE's, other than distract them so Harry ad an opportunity. But I could be mistaken. I'll have to re-read GoF. But it isn't an impossible theory. :)

[Fat middle]

Here are some more of my thoughts about Snape/ Dumbledore:

Why did Dumbledore finally allow Snape to have the DADA post? We know that D'dore knew the position was "cursed" in that no one had held it for more than a year. So he must have known that Snape could only hold it for that year.
This leads me to believe that Snape was lying to Bellatrix when he said what everyone seemed to think: that D'dore didn't want him to be close to the Dark Arts because he might slip back into his old ways. He trusted him, and I don't think Dumbledore's trust was without a strong reason (ie, there is more to the story than we or any character have been told). Dumbledore also wouldn't have offered trust with limits.

I think the real reason is that if he were to give him the position, he knew that it would have been Snape's last year, and he wanted to keep him at Hogwarts. But this year, there was a reason DD knew it would be Snape's final year, and so he was able to let him have the position. I think the reason DD knew is because the events at the end of this year were forseen as a possibility (not exactly, as in a vision, but as a conclusion reached with the information DD had available to him).

I think that Snape had told DD that Voldemort had ordered Draco to kill him, and that Dumbledore knew Snape would likely need to do it in order to save Draco's life. It seemed obvious to Snape, Narcissa and Bellatrix that Draco would not be able to do it. It doesn't seem that Snape told DD about the Vow, but wouldn't have been necessary if DD had already asked that he do the job if it came down to it.
I agree with your theory, but I do think that DD did know about the Vow: Harry had overheard about it and it had been reported to DD. If Snape's wouldn't have told DD before about the Vow the trust would have necessary had an end, so I think that he had told him from the begining.

One point I want to discuss is the air of vindictiveness with which the book ends. I don't think that JKR is going to justify murdering for vengeance in the last book, so I expect that the Snape thing will change its course in the last book.

[Fat middle]

R.A.B = Regulus Black.

The locket was the horcrux - but R.A.B (most likely Regulus Black) had already taken it and replaced it with the fake with the note.

In book 5 didn't Harry find a locket at 12 Grimmauld Place? Could be it.
Yeah, and that could be the reason for that little subplot in book 6 of Mundungus...

[Finrod Felagund]

After all my questioning...I have found the answer...

Aberforth Dumbledore IS the barkeep at the Hog's Head!

No joke!

Aberforth Dumbledore (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/aberforth.html)


My mystery is solved.

[Radagast The Brown]

Welll.... yes of course. A little visit in wikipedia would've told you that. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberforth_Dumbledore

"Aberforth is the bartender at the Hog's Head in Hogsmeade, as revealed by J. K. Rowling."

[Nurvingiel]

That is just awesome. :cool: I love the Harry Potter Lexicon.

[Rána Eressëa]

"Aberforth is the bartender at the Hog's Head in Hogsmeade, as revealed by J. K. Rowling."

Crikey Mikey! I've always suspected that!

That's so cool to finally have it confirmed. :cool:

[Fat middle]

Haha!! very funny :D :D

[Fat middle]

Does anybody know the name of that "huge blonde Death Eater"? IIRC his name is not mentioned...

[Spock]

My thoughts and some internet speculation has it as Lucius Malfoy .

[Fat middle]

My thoughts and some internet speculation has it as Lucius Malfoy .
¿Lucius Malfoy? He's in Azkaban, and Harry and the others know Lucius but they were referring to him as "that huge Death Eater", like they wouldn't know is name.

Besides, I doubt that Voldemort would have send him to that mission after his failure in the Ministry...

[Spock]

yeah, but a lot of people don't STAY in that prison, they escape. Anyway that's just the rumor going around.

[Lief Erikson]

Harry would have recognized him. Lucius also wasn't really "huge", according to descriptions we've had of him thus far.

[Spock]

...I didn't think Harry was the one who coined the description in the first place.

[durinsbane2244]

personally, i don't think its lucious 'cause they had clear looks of his faca and wouldve noticed, and DD still said he was in prison.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Lucious was never "large" anyway. He was built a lot like Draco, who has a small build. At least that's what I always thought.

Anywho, about this locket buisiness: Anyone remember what the locket they found at the Order looked like? I'm being lazy (as I so often am) and refuse to look it up when I know that the information is probably lying around in someon's head at this very moment. Well, it'd be a different moment when you guys read this...but I digress. My point is, do you guys think that it's the same one? I'd like to think so...especially since I like the idea of Regelus(sp?) being a "good" Black.

[EarthBound]

Finally, read the book yesterday (took all day, but it seemed shorter than her last, eh). Seemed like the story was "trying to hard" in a few places, but certainly enjoyed the story. Gripe: lot of halaboo was made about D's burnt/black hand then the story of it was just generalized with his destroying of the ring....maybe JKR means to extrapulate further in the next, but what a lame piece of setup IMHO.

Enjoyed the book, look forward to the next.

I suspect Snape is not the evil fella that Harry thinks him (I admit liking, Snape, so I'm completely biased). Cute that Harry has begun to see Draco's side of things, Harry is growing....cool.

[tomstheman]

said the wrong thing

[tomstheman]

same as above

[Khamûl]

I suspect Snape is not the evil fella that Harry thinks him (I admit liking, Snape, so I'm completely biased).There are many people who believe that Snape is good. Probably more people think he's good than think he's bad. Personally, I'm still on the fence. But maybe we're making our own twist here that he's good, only to have J.K. Rowling pull the rug out from under us and have him really be evil. Just a thought...

[Spock]

...yeah but the use of the A.K. on D. really put him on my negative list :(

[inked]

Check out the discussions at barnesandnobleuniversity.com in the classes with John Granger as one of the professors. Get jiggy with Snape, the good guy so undercover Harry thinks he's bad! :p

[Manveru]

i just got the half-blood prince a couple days ago but i think i noticed a big mistake. throughout the series rowling always says that the wizards never wear muggle clothes, they only wear robes and stuff, but ive seen 2 spots in the book where it refers to harry wearing pants at hogwarts. i thought it was weird, did anyone else notice this?

[Spock]

Actually the students wear their robes at Hogwarts but over regular clothes. You wouldn't think they were naked under those cloaks would you? :eek:

And when using Muggle transportation or going into areas where they might be seen, dressing in Muggle clothes was often preferred .

[Khamûl]

One recent development from the new book that strikes me is side-by-side apparition. It makes sense, but why haven't we seen it before now? Why didn't everyone pair up with someone who could apparate and travel to the Quidditch World Cup in Goblet of Fire like that, instead of by portkey? Why didn't Harry side-by-side apparate with Mr. Weasley the day of his hearing in Order of the Phoenix*? Just some thoughts I've had.


*Actually, I can answer that one. They had to go to the Ministry of Magic the Muggle way so that later in the story, Harry and Co. (who had no access to floo powder and none of whom could apparate) would know how to enter on their own to set up the final showdown. In my opinion, that's why JK Rowling did it that way.

[tolkienfan]

Maybe it's hard so only powerful wizards like Dumbledore can do it. (I don't remember, was he the only one who did it in the sixth book?) Probably Percy and maybe not Bill and Charlie couldn't do it.

[Fat middle]

Maybe it's hard so only powerful wizards like Dumbledore can do it. (I don't remember, was he the only one who did it in the sixth book?) Probably Percy and maybe not Bill and Charlie couldn't do it.
But the coming back apparation was made by Harry, not by DD...

I think that it may be forbidden by the Ministry to do it with young wizards, but DD might have decided that this time it was worth breaking that rule.

[Spock]

That sounds reasonable to me.

[tolkienfan]

But the coming back apparation was made by Harry, not by DD...
Oh yeah... :( :o

[Khamûl]

I think that it may be forbidden by the Ministry to do it with young wizards, but DD might have decided that this time it was worth breaking that rule.
That makes sense. :)

[Lord Choc Obo]

I'm still not sure what to think of Snape, I'm still confused about him :(

[Spock]

I was up until the end of the book and then I simply couldn't be 'on his side' anymore.

[Lord Choc Obo]

well yeah, but still he seems not to want to hurt harry or even capture him, how easy musn't it have been to just petrify him when he was lying on the ground and then take his body along to voldy?


you could even say he stopped giving harry occlumency to help him against voldy, remember ron saying that maybe snape was opening up harry's mind for voldy? it might be that snape was just doing his best to find a way to get harry out of these classes with a good reason for voldy, and what better then a big argument and knowing that harry wouldn't apoligize??

I still hope he'll be a little friendly at the end, even though I can never forgive him for doing the AK on big D

[Rían]

Hmm, time to check out the library - there might be some copies around by now...

I'm thinking Snape is on the good side, but it's starting to bug me a bit that there's so much "stacked up" against him, and then so many indicators that he is really good - I feel like I'm being unfairly/artificially (instead of naturally) set-up a bit, which I don't like.

[Lord Choc Obo]

yeah snape is just too much jumping from one side to another in my mind, and I don't like it anymore, it gets annoying because anyway he'll turn, It'll be totally unexpected and thus totally wrong, because we would've expected it to turn the other way around...but maybe that will be the fun part in it, like Darth Vader turning against his master :D

[durinsbane2244]

if no one else has thought of it, or remembered to post it, i think its a bit obvious that snape will end up turning on Voldemort and either fighting and losing[death] or gaining time for harry to escape[death] or getting in the way of a spell for harry[death], so yes, i think rowling is going to kill off my remaining favorite chartacter, besides lupin and moody :D :( :confused:

[Lord Choc Obo]

he's a git as Ron always likes to say, and I agree, let him die, we'll just see, maybe he once made an unbreakable vow to Harry's parents to protect harry at all cost, and so he chooses to die at Voldemorts hands rather then being killed by the vow while just standing by, just a thought ;-)

[Beren3000]

Here's my theory:

All the scenes with DD in book 6, sounded a little strange (you could even say out of character) to me. DD keeps telling Harry about his own wonderful powers and what a great wizard he (DD) is. It's just not like DD to brag.
Plus, at the end, DD pleads to Snape; I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't sound like DD at all to me.
So I'm thinking that Snape had to make the Vow in order to gain Bellatrix's trust and then went and told DD about it, so that they came up with a solution: planting a "fake" DD in Hogwarts. As to how this was done (and how the "fake" could help Harry the way he did), I think this will be revealed in the next book.
Who is the fake? IMO, it's Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) for two reasons:

-He's the one who "pleads" a lot
-He has a prosthetic hand => DD has a dead-looking black hand that he won't tell Harry about...

So to sum up, Snape is still on the good side and DD is still alive!

[Spock]

Wow, that is an excellent theory and has enough possibilites to be true. Hmmm, now it makes the wait (2yrs according to JR) even more interesting.

[Fat middle]

Wow, that is an excellent theory and has enough possibilites to be true. Hmmm, now it makes the wait (2yrs according to JR) even more interesting.
Ditto!! :)

It's not only a very factible theory, but also one I'd definitely like to see :)

I've been wondering these days what could be the thing that Wormtail would have to do because of the life-link he has with Harry. DD said that that was a very strong thing and it's sure it has to ve revealed to us in the 7th book.

It's curious, one friend of mine has been complaining about this book because he says he doesn't like this DD. He says he seems a very different character :D ;)

[Pytt]

I have to agree with Spock and Fat Middle. Very good theory, and I really felt glad when reading it :) DD still alive. And as Spock said, it doesn't have flaws as I see it.

2 years.. Wow. A long time. But, I would rather have a good book than something not-so-good, even if that means it comming earlier.

[Spock]

I've set the middle of October as the time to re-read the latest book as my plate is too full right now. Perhaps I'll understand more then.

[Pytt]

I think I have to re-read it after all these theories have come up. But, like you Spock, I have a lot to read now, so it'll take some time.
Tell us what you think when you reread it :)

[Beren3000]

It's curious, one friend of mine has been complaining about this book because he says he doesn't like this DD. He says he seems a very different character
Interesting! So I'm not the only one... :)

[Lord Choc Obo]

CONSPIRACY TIME

woow, now that's a super theory, that would be great, getting snape back to the good side, letting snape kill petigrew whom he despised, Dumbeldore still alive,...
but on the other hand, Pettigrew couldn't have done all those things in the cave with the Horcrux and he would've never talked like that to Malfoy...the final talk with of DD to Malfoy was a true Dumbeldore talk, even if you say he looks different in the book with bragging and such, he's still very much dumbeldore in the end.

a few flaws, but worth the thought, something to keep in mind when re-reading the book.

[tolkienfan]

It sounds like a good theory to me, but I don't know about Wormtail. Wouldn't You-Know-Who notice that he was gone a lot? Plus I don't think he could pull it off. He's not smart enough.

[Beren3000]

Pettigrew couldn't have done all those things in the cave with the Horcrux and he would've never talked like that to Malfoy...the final talk with of DD to Malfoy was a true Dumbeldore talk
I agree, but I think that the way in which Wormtail was made to look and sound like DD is more complex than just Polyjuice Potion, for example. I think it's a different kind of magic to be explained in the next book. Maybe that magic allowed the real DD to talk through Wormtail in crucial moments.

[Khamûl]

I'm sorry, but I still believe that Dumbledore is dead. That's not to say that there's not something fishy about his death, but I still think he's dead.

Here's an excerpt from an interview of JK Rowling (JKR):

JKR: Well, there you go. See, I'm aware that “Half-Blood Prince” will not delight everyone, because it does shoot down some theories. I mean, if it didn't, I haven't done my job right. A few people won't particularly like it, and a lot of people aren't going to like the death very much, but that was always what was planned to come.

We still don't know whether there was a genuine leak on that, or whether it was speculation that happened to be accurate.

ES: With this book?

MA: Remember the bets?

ES: Oh yeah -

JKR: Yeah, the betting scam. Well, we're now 50/50. If you remember, on “Phoenix,” the betting went for Cho Chang, and it was exactly the same thing. Suddenly someone put up something like £10,000 on Cho Chang to die, and you wouldn't think someone would waste that kind of money, so we think that they thought they had inside information. On the Dumbledore one, we still don't know. Was there a genuine leak or did someone just guess, and get it right?

ES: I remember actually putting a poll up on MuggleNet asking people if they thought he was going to bite it.

JKR: And what was the result? That's really interesting.

ES: The majority thought he was going to die in book six — well, six or seven. Most thought it was going to be in seven.

JKR: Really. Yeah.

ES: It was probably 65/35, but definitely, most thought he was going to die.

JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.

ES: The wise old wizard with the beard always dies.

JKR: Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes.

[Laughter]

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Nice theory Beren, but I agree with Khamûl. I just can't see Dumbledore returning. IMO Harry has o this by himself (maybe with a little help from Ron, Hermione and Neville) but DD returning wouldn't be right.

[emily leonard]

i agree in the end its going to have to be up 2 harry nobody can help him

[cee2lee2]

i agree in the end its going to have to be up 2 harry nobody can help him

I really, really, really like Beren3000's theory and I wish it were true, but based on the Rowling interview, it probably isn't. :(

[Fat middle]

I really, really, really like Beren3000's theory and I wish it were true, but based on the Rowling interview, it probably isn't. :(
But I can't see why, if JKR is trying to write after a model, that model cannot finally result to be LOTR: the wise old wizard with the beard dies... but then he returns... and that's not a problem for the young hero to be the one that in the end have to fight alone ;)

[Beren3000]

But I can't see why, if JKR is trying to write after a model, that model cannot finally result to be LOTR: the wise old wizard with the beard dies... but then he returns... and that's not a problem for the young hero to be the one that in the end have to fight alone
Agreed! Plus, what JKR said in the interview about people not liking the death could simply mean that people would think that DD's dead and therefore wouldn't like it. And, as you said FM, DD's return doesn't mean that he will help Harry fight Voldemort. Maybe DD will return at the very end of book 7 :rolleyes: :p

[cee2lee2]

But I can't see why, if JKR is trying to write after a model, that model cannot finally result to be LOTR: the wise old wizard with the beard dies... but then he returns... and that's not a problem for the young hero to be the one that in the end have to fight alone ;)



Hmmm....I see what you mean. Now I just have to hope she's following the LOTR model!

[Lord Choc Obo]

I was rethinking the theories of DD still being alive, but I'm just...really not sure, ya know, with the way it happens, the fact that NO ONE from the order seems to have known about the possible "swap" when they could just have known as long as there was a safekeeper, Hagrid seems devasted and if anyone would've known, it would've been Hagrid in my mind, also the funeral and the white casket and all; and the photograph of DD in the Headmaster's office...

I don't think he's coming back, except if he could talk out of his photograph or something.

aaaaah well, but still, I like conspiracies :D

[Rconsole]

It's gonna be interesting to see what he has to say, if anything at all through his portrait in the Headmaster/Headmistress' office...Do you think JKR will include that in Book 7?

[Nurvingiel]

I hope so, I love the portraits. And they've been plot devices before (Phineus Nigellus).

Sorry guys, but Dumbledore is D-E-D dead. If he weren't, it wouldn't be Harry who fights Voldemort in the end would it? If Rowling is following any model, it would be having a plot that makes sense. She wouldn't have Dumbledore come back to life and steal Harry's thunder. (As awesome as Dumbledore was. :( )
:)

[Spock]

Well I decided not to wait until October to re-read HBP. I'm paying more attention to the 'little things' and getting a deeper picture of the whole book this time around. I feel the portraits can contribute a great deal and perhaps D's will do so in the next book. Most enjoyable the second time around.

[Fat middle]

Well I decided not to wait until October to re-read HBP. I'm paying more attention to the 'little things' and getting a deeper picture of the whole book this time around. I feel the portraits can contribute a great deal and perhaps D's will do so in the next book. Most enjoyable the second time around.
Is there a reason why Dumbledores' portrait didn't speak at the end of the book? I mean, it was a bit odd it being there and saying nothing when everybody would expect him to do it... :confused:

[Elanor]

Maybe he wasn't ready yet, or maybe portraits don't activate until after their funeral, or maybe he was just sleepy.

[Spock]

Yeah, I go along with E on that one. The 'portrait' just got there and so needed to rest and settle in a bit. Then too he didn't have a script for the next book :D

[durinsbane2244]

indeed, i think he was following the other portraits usual occupation, good ol' sleep!

[Elanor]

And he had just been through that huge ordeal. I don't blame him if he wanted a break!

[Beren3000]

*Grins smugly*
You poor misled people! ;) :p

[Elanor]

What's with the smug look? :confused:

[Lord Choc Obo]

it says that the picture is "asleep" if I remember correctly, turning yourself into a magical picture must be hard and tire-ing (how ever you write it :D)

I always wondered, do the headmaster/mistress pictures know everything the person they depict knew at their time of death??? they seem to be able to learn, Phideas was able to comprehend and learn that the last of the Blacks was dead, so would the DD picture maybe be able to help Harry in finding the next Horcruxes??? or maybe we will find out about the blackened hand in the last book

[Rconsole]

The portraits must know what happened right? if not they could just tell him but I don't see why they couldn't

[Spock]

Just completed my second read of the book. Thoughts: DD hid a horcrux of himself...the pix is asleep as he really isn't dead...to conjure a pix is easy....now if he is dead then the pix is merely resting and Yes I agree the pix should know as much as the person depicted. Clear as mud. :D

[durinsbane2244]

[HUGE GASP] that would involve DD killin someone! WARNING-WARNING:EXTREME DARK MAGIC ALERT!

[Rconsole]

I don't think Dumbledore made a Horcrux...is just not him :/

[Lord Choc Obo]

let's not forget he got the Slytherin ring on a very strange way, I can't remember if it is said how he did it, but it could involve killing if it's not said clearly, no?

but anyway, I don't want DD to come back the way Voldy did, any way he did it (riddle's head, the ghost in the book in CoS, the "baby" in GoF) that would be grooooowwwwsse, so what would it do that he had a horcrux?

[HUGE GASP] that would involve DD killin someone! WARNING-WARNING:EXTREME DARK MAGIC ALERT!

[durinsbane2244]

i was just rereading it again, and he says to the dursleys, "until we meet again", bum bum buuuuuum

[Beren3000]

What's with the smug look?
It's because you people keep on discussing DD's portrait as if he's really dead :rolleyes:

[Elanor]

Oh, you think he isn't? I admit there was that whole thing with the Phoenix coming out of his grave... but Avada Kedavra seems pretty final to me, and after all, Sirius didn't come back to life. I really think Dumbledore's gone from the story. He needs to be, so Harry can take on Voldemort alone at the end. It just has to be that way, I think.

[Beren3000]

Oh, you think he isn't?
Yes, in fact I have a theory on the matter. If you're interested, refer to post #314 in this thread and tell me what you think of it.

[tolkienfan]

i was just rereading it again, and he says to the dursleys, "until we meet again", bum bum buuuuuum
That's true! But right after that it says the Dursleys looked as if they would be happy if it was forever as far as they were concerned.

[durinsbane2244]

true, but DD usually doesn't say anything without meaning, exactly why i await the hand story! :cool:

[Lord Choc Obo]

I was always looking forward to the next lesson with DD to FINALLY FIND OUT ABOUT THE HAND, and they NEVER TOLD IT, I was a little bit much pissed about this when he died :mad:

[Elanor]

Beren3000, I think you did a good job by finding the parallel between Wormtail's silver hand and Dumbledore's blackened one (they are both the right hand), but I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

I think Dumbledore's blackened hand has already been satisfactorily explained. He got the injury while destroying the ring Horcrux. True, he does promise to tell the "thrilling" story of how it happened, but I think he just never gets around to that because he dies first. Sad, but true. J. K. Rowling isn't an author to kill one of her main, much-beloved characters and then bring him back to life. Sorry, but she just doesn't do that. In real life things aren't always tied off neatly, and some promises are never fulfilled, despite the best intentions.

You say it's not like Dumbledore to brag, but how do we know that? Harry has very limited contact with him in his first four years (albeit much more contact than the other students), and it's mostly as a sort of all-knowing, wise, untouchable person. In HBP, Harry truly gets to know Dumbledore as a father-figure, teacher and friend. I think that by Dumbledore's small, humble "bragging" (saying that being smarter just means he makes bigger mistakes!), he's letting Harry get to know him as a person. He's giving Harry a taste of the lonely life of those who have the weight of the world on their shoulders. It's not bragging to give an honest appraisal of your own abilities.

I do think it's unlike Dumbledore to plead for his own life, but I don't think that necessarily means he was Wormtail in disguise. Wormtail would be blubbering on the floor, whereas Dumbledore quietly, simply, said, "Severus, please..." There are so many possibilities for what this means! Here are a few:

1. He's pleading for Snape to not kill him so he'll be able to continue his work (saving the world from Voldemort) and help Harry. A noble cause, and worth pleading for. (This would imply that Snape is evil)
2. He's pleading for Snape TO kill him, so Snape won't have to break the Unbreakable Vow and die. Killing a fake Dumbledore wouldn't satisfy the Vow, you know! (This would imply that Snape is not evil)
3. He's pleading for Snape to kill him because he's been made suicidally depressed by the scary green potion. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry he wanted to die, in the cave? And then the whole way home he was asking for Severus, who had made a vow to kill him if Draco couldn't.... (This could fit Snape being either good or evil)

In short, there is a lot more evidence against Dumbledore being Wormtail in disguise than for it. Including the fact that Wormtail is working for Voldemort (and was loyal enough to go to the trouble of bringing him back to life), fears Dumbledore, and probably hates Snape. But it's good to think of wacky theories just the same. Keep it up. ;)

[durinsbane2244]

wow, that's clever, but i just thought, DD is probably an animagus, so what if he turns into a pheonix, and than a fake DD, could be anyone with polyjuice, dies, explaining the free usage of the hand, and than the unbreakable vow remains intact because draco failed to kill an imposter, not DD!

[Beren3000]

True, he does promise to tell the "thrilling" story of how it happened, but I think he just never gets around to that because he dies first.
Strangely enough, he manages to dodge Harry's questions about it every time... ;)

J. K. Rowling isn't an author to kill one of her main, much-beloved characters and then bring him back to life.
You can't just make such a generalization. After all, JKR is an author whose style is still developing. From one book to the next, there are changes in her style, so how do you know she's "not that kind of author"?

You say it's not like Dumbledore to brag, but how do we know that?
Because from the "limited contact" Harry has with him, we can learn of his character. And of what I learned he is too modest to brag (at least too modest to brag the way he did in HBP)

whereas Dumbledore quietly, simply, said, "Severus, please..."
Dumbledore certainly did NOT plead quietly and simply. It says in the book that Harry heard a sound that scared him more than anything else that has happened that night: Dumbledore's pleading. That doesn't sound very "quiet and simple" to me.

He's pleading for Snape TO kill him, so Snape won't have to break the Unbreakable Vow and die.
That's interesting! One of my friends had the exact same theory to explain that Snape's innocent.

Killing a fake Dumbledore wouldn't satisfy the Vow, you know!
That's too large of an assumption to make when we don't know how the Vow was worded, don't you think?

And then the whole way home he was asking for Severus
Severus is an expert in DADA so DD could have been asking for him for a cure. Also, remember how Wormtail was in Snape's house at the beginning. This means that Snape has a sort of authority over him. So it would be Snape who would have coerced him into posing as DD. So he would want to "report" the night's incident to Snape.

[Spock]

but DD & HP apparated together so a fake DD isn't possible.

[durinsbane2244]

why do you say that? it never says only DD can do a side-along apparation. . .

[Spock]

....sighs....because DD was with HPand in direct physical contact w/HP at the beginning and end of the apparation. There would be no chance of switching in a fake DD. reading comprehension is such a lost art. :(

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that the guess is that it was a fake DD all the way through the night.

[Lord Choc Obo]

ys, but it is a VEEEEERY big guess.

what are the odds of it being true??? JK told us someone was going to die, and it would be a big dissappointement if she lied to us.

[durinsbane2244]

no, she wouldn't have lied, for someone would have died, the imposter, and spocko, and imposter could've apparated them!

[Spock]

Why and to what end, it only hurt L.V. and an imposter would have no motive...durino!

[durinsbane2244]

ooooooo, so now you mock me. . .

[in opera voice]
YOU WILL CURSE, THE DAY YOU DID NOT DO,
ALL THAT DURINSBANE ASKED OF YYYOOOUUU!!!!!
[righteous organ part comes in]

[Spock]

...doobie doobie doo, don't do what he do
...doobie doobie da, he that is from Fla. :D :D

[inked]

Dumbledore is dead.

Long live Dumbledore.

There is no warrant in any of the books to date for a living person being able to act as the portraits of the former Headmasters do. I think that Dumbledore's presence in the framed picture in the Headmaster's office is the final nail in Dumbledore's physical extant existence. However, as JKR has been at pains to point out, death is not the end, merely the next great adventure. IT is clear that there is the possibility of action from beyond the veil. Think how many times that has been explored - particularly at the graveyard battle between HP and LV. The whole former headmaster/picture convention: former headmasters retain personality, will, and limited action in the physical world - in fact, they function in a supranatural existence of some sort. So, I think Dumbledore will be able to act within those constraints as the prior incidents have indicated, i.e., he will be able to give advice and information to his successor - if they wish it and ask for it.

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?

[Beren3000]

There is no warrant in any of the books to date for a living person being able to act as the portraits of the former Headmasters do.
Well, before book 5 there were no hints about Occlumency. And (IIRC) we never saw side-along apparition before book 6. So that's not proof....

[durinsbane2244]

ok, pictures move while the occupants live, doi!

[Elanor]

You can't just make such a generalization. After all, JKR is an author whose style is still developing. From one book to the next, there are changes in her style, so how do you know she's "not that kind of author"?JKR may be a relatively new writer, but I wouldn't say her style is developing. The tone of one book may differ from another, depending on what sort of issues the characters face, but I think her style remains very consistent. Before HBP came out there were all sorts of rumors and unlikely theories flying around that Sirius wasn't dead, even though the fact of his death was made very clear at the end of OotP. Now the same thing is happening with Dumbledore. J.K. Rowling has said in interviews that Dumbledore is dead. She has also said that she takes the deaths of her major characters seriously. That's how I know she's not the type of author to fake us out with the death of someone like Dumbledore. Harry Potter may be a fantasy character, but he deals with serious issues-- truth, morality, responsibility, prejudice, evil, growing up, identity, hypocrisy, death. It would be extremely incongruous and irresponsible of JKR to have a character die, be mourned so deeply, and then come back to life. She has had fake deaths, but it's never been a good thing that they weren't dead! (Wormtail, Crouch Jr.)

Because from the "limited contact" Harry has with him, we can learn of his character. And of what I learned he is too modest to brag (at least too modest to brag the way he did in HBP)My point about Dumbledore "bragging" is that he doesn't -- he simply states the truth. And HBP reveals his character in more depth; it doesn't disguise him. JKR has already done plenty with disguises in books 3 and 4. She's moved on from that into more subtle mysteries -- Harry's false visions, the HBP, Draco and the Vanishing Cabinet, the Horcruxes, etc. Having Dumbledore turn out to be alive would be anticlimactic and useless. What would Dumbledore do, but help Harry find the rest of the Horcruxes? Harry Potter is a classic hero story, and there's always a point in hero stories when the hero has to be cut free of his helpers and wise guardians, and finish his task by himself. So far, Harry's always had Dumbledore to turn to in an emergency and explain things at the end. But at this point in the story Harry has to grow up and finish his task (defeating Voldemort) on his own, without Dumbledore holding his hand. Harry may even die himself in the end, as JKR has hinted many times. I can't say whether he will for sure or not, but she has made it plain that this is not a pretty little fairy tale where bad things come undone and everyone's happy at the end!

It says in the book that Harry heard a sound that scared him more than anything else that has happened that night: Dumbledore's pleading. That doesn't sound very "quiet and simple" to me.Dumbledore's pleading didn't scare Harry because it was loud and booming, or high and screechy, or overemotional. The sound wasn't what frightened Harry. This is simply a figure of speech to illustrate how serious the situation was: Dumbledore knew he was going to die.

That's too large of an assumption to make when we don't know how the Vow was worded, don't you think?But we do know how the Vow was worded. We can read every word of it in Chapter 2: Spinner's End.

Sorry, but your evidence just isn't substantial enough to convince me. We're all entitled to our own opinions, so keep your theory, but don't look down on (or give smug looks to ;) ) those who disagree.

[Elanor]

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?Isn't it obvious that it's McGonagall? In fact, I take that as even more conclusive proof that Dumbledore is dead, since the Headmaster's office opened itself to her. The magic of the castle could tell that he was gone.

[Pytt]

No, not McGonagall. I don't have a candidate myself, but I don't think McGonagall will be headmaster. She could and would handle the job, I'm sure, but I think that she isn't fitable to replace Dumbledore in such hard times. I don't know who it might be, but I don't think, and I also don't really hope it's going to be McGonagall.

Besides, a thing I wondered about. Will Hogwarts be present in the next book? In the ending of HBP, Harry says he's going to leave and not coming back to the school. In that case, will we here of Hogwarts other than briefly? I would at least have visited Dumbledore on the Headmasters Office for guidance, if I could, assuming he is dead and can speak from the Frame on the wall. But besides that, and other small things, I don't really think the book will tell us that much of Hogwarts.

[Rconsole]

Well if Hogwarts is in book 7 I think McGonagall will be headmistress, it's not like she would hire somebody else in times like these, and novody has any reason to kick her out...

[Spock]

Then too perhaps the school will shut down for the next book and the OOTP members will help HP against LV?

[Lord Choc Obo]

well we don't know what's gonna happen with the school, do we? the board had to decide about that... wait and see :D

[durinsbane2244]

No, not McGonagall. I don't have a candidate myself, but I don't think McGonagall will be headmaster. She could and would handle the job, I'm sure, but I think that she isn't fitable to replace Dumbledore in such hard times. I don't know who it might be, but I don't think, and I also don't really hope it's going to be McGonagall.

Besides, a thing I wondered about. Will Hogwarts be present in the next book? In the ending of HBP, Harry says he's going to leave and not coming back to the school. In that case, will we here of Hogwarts other than briefly? I would at least have visited Dumbledore on the Headmasters Office for guidance, if I could, assuming he is dead and can speak from the Frame on the wall. But besides that, and other small things, I don't really think the book will tell us that much of Hogwarts.

who's the candidate?!?!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?
I think Fudge is quite a likely option myself.

[Pytt]

who's the candidate?!?!

I don't know. Maybe some completely new person. TD said Fudge, that could be. McGonagall is an option, but I don't want her. I want something more exiting, to take the place after Dumbledore. But I think everyone would be bleach copies of DUmbledore.

[Lord Choc Obo]

I thought of Fudge too, but he's too dull and too scared to lead Hogwarts, the school has a superbe high reputation (though now very damaged too) and an ex-prime minister who refused to handle the Voldemort matter properly and who mostly counterworked DD would not be the first choice I think :s

[tolkienfan]

Harry or Hermione? (once they're a lot older)

[Lief Erikson]

I rather doubt that we'll see a headmaster in action, so the point doesn't matter very much to me. The story will be focused on Harry still, and Harry isn't going to go back to Hogwarts until, in my opinion, he goes there to accept the job of "Defense against the Dark Arts" teacher, at the end of book 7. So who is the new headmaster, since we will hardly see anything of him or her in action anyway, at that point won't really make much difference, will it?

[Lord Choc Obo]

Harry or Hermione? (once they're a lot older)

once they're older???? we're talking about the next book here, so they can't just suddenly get older or become headmaster without reason :D sorry, no harry or herms as headmaster/mistress

and Harry isn't going to go back to Hogwarts until, in my opinion, he goes there to accept the job of "Defense against the Dark Arts" teacher, at the end of book 7.

he would be too young to take the job, even though he's very good at it in the DA classes, he does not have the ability to really teach classes, remember, even voldy tried to get the job after leaving school and even though his powers were way bigger than Harry's, he still didn't get the job, because he had no "life-experience", so harry won't go back for that.

[Lief Erikson]

You don't think that at that point Harry will have had "life experience"? ;)

[tolkienfan]

once they're older???? we're talking about the next book here, so they can't just suddenly get older or become headmaster without reason :D sorry, no harry or herms as headmaster/mistress
Not in the 7th book, there would have to be someone else first. But maybe someday?

[Lord Choc Obo]

You don't think that at that point Harry will have had "life experience"? ;)
quite right, but still... 18 isn't really adult, ya know...it wouldn't be right


and yes idd tolkienfan, maybe someday (maybe hermione first "mudblood" headmistress???) but it wouldn't be treated in the 7th book now, would it??

[durinsbane2244]

we don't know that everyone headmaster/mistress was pure...

[tolkienfan]

quite right, but still... 18 isn't really adult, ya know...it wouldn't be right


and yes idd tolkienfan, maybe someday (maybe hermione first "mudblood" headmistress???) but it wouldn't be treated in the 7th book now, would it??
There might be an epilogue...

[Lord Choc Obo]

There might be an epilogue...
I'm afraid she's gonna get stuck on HP, ya know, like Chucky mauchalkin got stuck on Home Alone and such

it's not gonna be easy to write anew after HP for her....on the other hand she made enough money for several generations of her family to live a wealthy life :D

[Elanor]

I don't think she'll have trouble coming up with more subject matter to write. She's already said something about writing crime novels. Also she has mentioned that she'll probably put together a Harry Potter index, with her sketches and more background info on characters such as Dumbledore. I really hope she does!

[Spock]

She's given "us" so much already that I'm happy if she and her family can live well.

[durinsbane2244]

a noble sentiment indeed, spocko

[Lord Choc Obo]

well offcourse, I don't wanna say that we have to take away all of her money :D but it really takes down the stimulans of writing now more, doesn't it?

[Elanor]

I don't think so. She writes for fun, and she's not going to stop just because she doesn't need the money. She's a writer through and through. I'm sure that if more stories come to her (and they will), she'll write them. Maybe not at such a rapid pace, but she'll definitely keep writing.

[Rían]

Went to library at 4 pm yesterday, got HP and the HBP. Finished it at 1 am. Great book!

[inked]

Pssst, Rian! Check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com on the HBP. :)

[Nurvingiel]

well offcourse, I don't wanna say that we have to take away all of her money :D but it really takes down the stimulans of writing now more, doesn't it?
Bwahaha! :D Writers do not write for money. How was she supposed to know, as she typed the first book on a typrewriter, that she was going to publish a major best seller? She tried a number of times to get it published before Raincoast Books picked it up.
I think we can safely say that Rowling will finish this series, despite her millions of pounds. :D

Then who knows what she'll do? Maybe she has other plans after her wonderful books are finished.


"Looking for God in Harry Potter" :D :D :D You can publish anything these days! (Actually maybe it's a good book. I have no idea.)

[durinsbane2244]

hehe, the lotr one was alright...but, oddly, dumbledore uses the term "sin" in the movie, which wasn't in the book....

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Well, he uses it in reference to curiosty...which Harry has proved that he has a lot of. Dumbldore does talk about what is right and wrong, maybe the director felt that Dumbldore could be talking about sin...geuss it'd be his interpertation of it.
Is a bit odd...I suppose.

[durinsbane2244]

well, i just found it odd because of the religious controversy that has been going on, and the fact that people claim that magic "comes from satin" even though these people use it for good...

[Lord Choc Obo]

yes magis does come from satIn sheats and stuff like that :D I guess you meant satan, right? well yeah that's kind of a strange thing, but as you may know there have always been tales of good witches through out history too, like Charmed for instance :-p so even if magic was created by the devil, it can be used both for good and evil, cfr. HP contra Voldy

[durinsbane2244]

yes, i like misspelling words now and then, i got the habit from a friend who does it insanely...i know how to spell satan...

[Lord Choc Obo]

sure you do, I believe you :D, nah just kidding, I know nobody misspells satan, but saying the devil or belzebub or lucifer really is easier though :D

[Faerdhinen]

Ok, I've read it more than 5 times for sure (and because English's not my 1st language, everyone thinks I'm crazy.:rolleyes: ) and ... Well, I like it - not love it as I did OotP - and yet it seemed a bit clichéed to me. I didn't expect ... Wait, are spoilers allowed? I didn't expect the person who died to die in HBP but rather in book 7 but yaeh, I was pretty sure he was doomed. :( I'm sorry there's so little of my Voldemort. Can't stop liking my lil' Tommie boy. :p

[Lord Choc Obo]

yeah, there was rather little suspense building imho opinion, it gave me a feeling like the matrix reloaded, in the first matrix lots of action and great story, and then suddenly in reloaded the entire philosophy thing with a fight here and there, BUT the matrix revolutions was one hell of a battle so I'm dying for some HP7 :D

[durinsbane2244]

well, i still think DD will have a major role to play, i mean, come on, he's DD....sheesh...

[azalea]

Hey, just wanted to respond to a few things here...

I think Harry will be back at Hogwarts next year, at least for a while, after he finds out that he has to find one of the horcruxes there.

I think that McGonagall will be headmistress (she already is, isn't she? I mean, that's what happens at the end! She IS the new headmistress), Hagrid will be head of Gryffindor, and Slughorn will be head of Slytherin. Period! :D

Finally, just a bit about magic, witches, etc. (re: comments above): the reason the people who shun HP for that reason are misguided is because although they rightly believe that people seeking to practice witchcraft IN REAL LIFE are not following the teachings of the Christian faith --
a) the people doing magic in the book identified as witches and wizards are NATURALLY BORN that way (ie, the abilities are, you could say, God given);
b) the book is a FANTASY and doesn't pretend to be anything more, ie, not REAL or possible in any way, aside from the classic moral lessons it contains; and
c) for the reasons discussed in other threads -- if one looks past the surface structure, it is easy to see spiritually/personally applicable lessons or points that DO parallel Judeo-Christian morals.

Oh, and DD is indeed DEAD! :( No faking! :)

[Spock]

Oh come now, Azalea, you're not trying to tell us that Harry Potter isn't real and that there isn't any Hogwarts? :( Next you'll be telling us there is not platform 9 3/4 either. :D

[Elanor]

I know someone from my church who was reluctant to read Harry Potter for the typical reasons but when he did he was completely fine with it because the "witchcraft" in these books is based on folklore and fairy tales, not "real" witchcraft or devil worshipping. What's interesting is that many Wiccans -- members of a neo-pagan religious group who claim to be "witches" -- also dislike Harry Potter's world because it doesn't attempt to adhere to Wiccan practices. I simply put it in the same category as all my fantasy books.

[rohirrim TR]

how does hagrid become head of gryfindor? I'm thinking he is...er was a hufflepuff i mean come one:
1)he's not the brightest bulb on the christmas tree
2)His strength is his talent with critters
edit: spock isn't it platform 9 3/4?

[durinsbane2244]

yea, 3/4, and hagrid isn't even a wizard...technically...

[Spock]

edit: spock isn't it platform 9 3/4?

Indeed, I posted before my brain was fully engaged.

BTW, I watched the SS & COS on network tv, complete with thousands of commercials, over the weekend. It was the best thing on tv and was very relaxing to watch as I could look for nuances missed in my previous DVD viewings (over three dozen times by now).

[Spock]

yea, 3/4, and hagrid isn't even a wizard...technically...

Well he didn't graduate but he is a wizard. I don't think that just because you didn't graduate you lose your powers. After all all students had 'em before being picked for Hogwarts.

[Elanor]

Yeah.

"Yer a wizard, Harry."
"I'm a what?"

So being a wizard or witch is like their species, sort of... but when they finish Hogwarts (someone told me that you don't "graduate" from this type of school in England; you just finish), they become "fully qualified" wizards.

[azalea]

Yes, it just means he isn't allowed to practice magic, since his wand was snapped due to the whole T.R. mess, but he was exonerated after CoS (although he hasn't been given permission to use magic, IRC, probably because the ministry doesn't want to admit it makes mistakes, and because he was never properly trained, not having a home in which to learn -- surely not all children from wizarding families are accepted into Hogwarts, for instance I can't see Mundungus there, but you never know -- and not being taught at Hogwarts, plus I think there's a good degree of bias against him because of his parentage). (Was that a long enough sentence? :p)

I think the concensus is that he was in Gryffindor, although I agree he seems like a Hufflepuff in some respects. One reason against this that stands out to me is that he says in PS/SS (in Diagon Alley, I believe) something like "Some people say Hufflepuffs are a bunch of duffers, but they've always seemed alright to me." That doesn't seem like something he would say if he had been in H. Def. not Ravenclaw or Slytherin material, so that leaves Gryff. Plus, he is quite headstrong and unafraid to speak his mind or take action.

Besides, he is a Hogwarts professor, so that should make him eligible. I don't see any other character standing out as being obvious to fill the position, and the fact that McGonagall included him in the "conference" at the end of the book also gives weight to the theory.

[Elanor]

I think Hagrid must have permission to use magic now, or he couldn't be a teacher. He seems to use it pretty openly, such as when he's fighting the Death Eaters at the end of HBP. He just doesn't have all the knowledge of wizards that have finished school, which is why Harry had to remind him of the "aguamenti" spell.

JKR has been asked if wizards like Mundungus and Stan Shunpike went to Hogwarts, and she said they did. All magical children are accepted to Hogwarts, just not squibs.

[Spock]

Agreed! :)

[rohirrim TR]

so how does hogwarts keep their doors open if they accept everyone? do they get tax money?

[Spock]

by Magic :)

[rohirrim TR]

ahh....yes....of course but then how....er never mind i guess. :rolleyes: :D :D :D

[Elanor]

Well, I'm pretty sure they charge tuition... but probably have a government subsidized fund to help kids who can't afford it.

[Spock]

I don't think so, remember Muggles aren't wealthy and have no foreknowledge they'll need money for school.

[Pytt]

Doesn't it say in the first book that Harry have to pay something to go to Hogwarts? Maybe it didn't.

Another thing I've been thinking, is that maybe, when book 7 starts, Harry has already been to the Dursleys, and have got one with his hunt for the horcruxes. I'm not really sure if he'll be back at Hogwarts, not when the schoolyear starts anyway. He has to get back to the school sometimes troughout the year, I agree, but I think it will be only a short stay. It would be cool if the whole thing ended at Hogwarts, Harry discovering that Gryffindors sword is the last horcrux, and hurries back to Hogwarts to find Voldemort waiting for him.
This is jsut theories I have, and I'm looking forward to see if I'm at least somewhat right.

[Spock]

I read the book again last month and saw the movie again over this weekend, it never mentions it; only that he needed money to buy books and supplies.

[Elanor]

Actually, you're probably right. I was thinking of what Uncle Vernon said: "I'm not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic tricks!" Since Hagrid lost his temper right then, the issue was never resolved... But it never mentions that the Weasleys have to pay for anything but books and supplies.

[azalea]

Thanks for the info re: all are accepted. I suppose that makes sense, but then not all will finish or make their OWLs or NEWts.
I do think there is a tuition, but also as we saw in book 6 when Ddore meets Tom Riddle, he says something like we can help those who can't pay (lent book out so I can't look up that part).

[durinsbane2244]

in HBP, DD says to TR that they have a fund for non-magical children.

[Elanor]

non-magical? You mean without magical parents?

[Merenwen Vardamir]

I don't think you have to pay to go to Hogwarts because: a) they seek you out and invite you... b) Harry's letter would have said something in S.S if he needed money for more then him books and supplies and c) Dumbledore told Riddles Headmistress at the orphanage that he had 'won a Scholorship'- just so she didn't need to question as much.

[azalea]

I guess the only other option is that the ministry supports the school financially, which is why they have so much influence over it.

[Elanor]

Well, the only expenses for Hogwarts would be the employees' salaries and some pieces of equipment like potions ingredients, plants, and other things or creatures used for classes. There wouldn't be any property tax or other expenses, and we know from Mrs. Weasley that you can make food out of nothing. Slughorn says his salary is not very high, so probably none of the teachers get paid much, or Filch, Madame Pince, Madame Pomfrey, or Hagrid before he became a teacher (did he get a raise?). They probably get contributions from wealthy wizarding families, and there might be a wizarding tax that pays Hogwarts teachers... I don't know how it would be collected, though. There has to be some tax to pay the Ministry employees, doesn't there?

[durinsbane2244]

i never understood why wizards need money, besides the stuff you just named....how can they have resturants?!?!you can magic food!!

[Merenwen Vardamir]

i never understood why wizards need money, besides the stuff you just named....how can they have resturants?!?!you can magic food!!
it does seem that if you could conjuer things out of midair- money would be pointless, but they can't conjuer everything.... And they might like to go out and be waited on and go to Wizarding Events. Money and the betterment of life is the American dream.....

[Elanor]

It has nothing to do with America. :rolleyes: They have restaurants because some people just aren't good cooks! :D And witches and wizards specialize in different types of magic, so they pay others to do what they aren't so good at. For example, Fred & George's prank items are really an art. Nobody else could come up with them.

[Spock]

Let's not forget "house elves" as they do much of the cooking, etc. and never get paid. :)

[azalea]

I know Mrs. Weasley cooks a lot, but I'm not sure what that looks like. I think they have to put the stuff together, but they can magic stuff like peeling potatoes. I can't imagine how the acquisition of food is achieved, but if they have to go shop for books and robes, I imagine they also shop for food. It's probably regulated or something.

[Elanor]

"She slammed a large copper saucepan down on the kitchen table and began to wave her wand around inside it. A creamy sauce poured from the wand tip as she stirred."
Sounds like creating food out of nothing to me, but maybe it's harder for more complicated foods.

[durinsbane2244]

i concur

[King of The Istari]

Well Back to Book 7:

I believe that dumbledore will have some contact to harry, most likely through his portrait, I believe he won't help harry with Voldemort or the horcruxes but teach him some of the things he needs to know to beat the enchantments set upon the resting places of the horcruxes and how to destroy them
I can't see any other way he could get this infomation and I think ADD is the only character who could teach harry these things with any credibility

Regarding snape I believe we are all expecting him to be good and turn Voldy and this i what s most likely to happen but I wouldn't mind him just being darn right evil.
I also want him to be evil because I don't like the idea of him killing a defencless dumbledore and then later on saying Dumbledore told me or I killed him but I'm still good.

I think Godrics Hollow will play an intresting part in Book 7 for that will be the first time Harry has seen his old house or visited his parent's graves I think something there may help him on his quest to kill voldemort.

and Finally I WANT A HAPPY ENDING I don't think I could stand Harry being killed off at the end of Book seven, people have been with this character for seven long books and many people includng myself would be able to enjoy rereading the books and watching the films knowing Harry is going to do The Matrix thing and sacrefice himself for the rest of the wizarding world even if it does bring around Voldemort's downfall.

PS. has anyone noticed that the place that the Potters lived "godrics Hollow" is named after gryfndor

[cee2lee2]

[QUOTE=King of The Istari]Well Back to Book 7:....and Finally I WANT A HAPPY ENDING. I don't think I could stand Harry being killed off at the end of Book seven, people have been with this character for seven long books and many people includng myself would be able to enjoy rereading the books and watching the films knowing Harry is going to do The Matrix thing and sacrefice himself for the rest of the wizarding world even if it does bring around Voldemort's downfall..../QUOTE]


Me, too. I just won't be able to bear it if Harry is killed off. Don't think I will ever want to read the books again if that happens. Mind you, this is from someone who has read the books every year at least once, and again right before reading each new book when it is published. It seems a bit silly -- it is fiction after all -- but I care about these characters.

[inked]

cee2lee2, How did you like Deathly Hallows and all the deaths there? And what about Harry's demise?

[cee2lee2]

Overall, I liked DH. It arrived mid-morning on the 21st and I spent the day reading it. :D

As much as I wouldn't have wanted any body except the bad guys to die, there's no way she could have written the story like that. It's a war against evil after all. I'm glad about the one who was reprieved, but the Order deaths were heart-wrenching. The closer I got to Harry's "final" moment, the more upset I got. But JKR found a way through it that was satisfying to me and I will be rereading the series for many years to come.