Wheel of Time discussions

[Beren3000]

People talk a lot about the reduced readability of the latest books (I'm on the 4th book myself and personally find that the series lost nothing of its shine or "momentum" so far); however, I started this thread for discussions about possible literary meanings or symbols you find in the series.
Anybody got posts?

[Falagar]

Sorry, not much on-topic, but a good joke ! Found it on some message-board:

In how many ways can Robert Jordan describe the problems of dealing with women?

Think well before you check the answer.

Three: Rand can wish he was Perrin or Mat, because Perrin and Mat know how to act around girls, Perrin can wish he was Mat or Rand, because they always know what to say, or Mat could wish he was Perrin or Rand because they always get along with girls...


Sorry, didn't really mean to drag this thread off-topic. But to be blunt, I don't think there are any deeper meanings or literary messages - at least I've not discovered any between all the braid-tugging and sniffing. Jordan doesn't seem to have grasped the idea of subtility (just spent two hours going through a Jordan-basher thread and it's two o' clock in the morning, may have something to do with it).

[Elvengirl]

lol too true :)

[Beren3000]

LOOOOOL great joke, man!
Don't worry about talking off-topic. I didn't find a lot of "deeper meanings" myself. I started the thread to see if other people could see what I couldn't. However, I can think of some stuff. Obviously, Rand is a Christ figure. I also think that the Aes Sedai represent the church or something. This way, the people's attitude toward them is explained: an attitude of fear but respect in some, hatred in others etc...as opposed to the old, reverent attitude (people used to respect church more). However, this doesn't make much sense as Rand appears in a time when Aes Sedai have long existed, whereas Christ founded the church.

Any help here?

[Falagar]

Mat and Perrin (and Rand, though IMO to a smaller degree) represent the careless, ignorant youth, and during their travels they grow more responisble and learn their ways up in the world. (At least they're supposed to, though it seems like they stop growing somewhere along the way and despite all that's happening to them just remain ignorant.)

Moiraine is a bit Christ-like; she tries to guide Rand (=humanity), sometimes succeeding and sometimes not, until she sacrifices herself in the end to save him (them) because of his (their) own shortcomings.

Not particulary insightful but that's all I got time for now, got to run...

[Lollypopgurl]

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

[Beren3000]

Mods, can you please close this?

[Tessar]

Actually, on the subject of Rand being a Christ Figure:

Jesus didn't fully 'found' the Church, in a sense. There were already 'priests' of a sort, although getting very corrupt. Jesus changed the church and gave it a new foundation (read: the Black Tower).

I would say that Rand as a Christ figure works out nicely ;).

[Beren3000]

Thanks for reviving the thread, Tessar. But I beg to differ on one point. What existed before Christ was Judaism, not a church in the strict sense of the word. But your explanation is probably right if we modify it to say that Aes Sedai symbolize Judaist priests and Pharisees. But the problem is, that doesn't seem to make much sense either as the priests and Pharisees were dead set on opposing Christ (the only one who believed in Him that we know of is Nicodemus). I think then that Rand should be taken as a Christ figure, period. If you start thinking about his relation to other characters, the symbolism doesn't hold water.
But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

[Tessar]

The priests ended up trying to use Christ to glorify their own way.

The White Tower tried to CAPTURE Rand and force him into submission so that he would be under their controll.

It's fairly close, actually ;).

[brownjenkins]

But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

RJ doesn't hit me as someone who really thinks that much about the big picture... he was using themes from religion, sure... but those themes themselves have older mythological roots... so unless RJ came right out and said, this is a christian allegory, i wouldn't think any was intended

[Beren3000]

I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

[Tessar]

I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

I think that's the point of them... there isn't supposed to be depth :D.

[Beren3000]

I suppose...(sigh) I just hoped to find another series that had something like Tolkien's depth. But I guess that'd be impossible :(

[Tessar]

Read the DUNE books by Frank Herbert.

The first one was the best, and after that they fizzled out and got REALLY strange, but the first one was awsome, and the others were cool in their depth.

[brownjenkins]

i agree... i'm re-reading the dune series at the moment, and it's oozin' depth ;)

i'm actually enjoying the later ones too... especially 'children of...'

it also reminded me of just how blatantly RJ ripped off the fremen when he 'created' his aiel :mad:

[Tessar]

I just loved the first one soooo much. It was like... well in a way it was almost like reading a 'better' wheel of time.

[Beren3000]

Ok, if it's not too much to ask, can you please tell me the order of the books in the Dune series?

[Tessar]

Dune

Dune Messiah

Children of Dune

God Emperor of Dune

Heretics of Dune

Chapterhouse: Dune

I've read to God Emperor of Dune, at which point I didn't enjoy it any more :).

[Beren3000]

Thanks, Tessar :)

[BeardofPants]

Read the DUNE books by Frank Herbert.

The first one was the best, and after that they fizzled out and got REALLY strange, but the first one was awsome, and the others were cool in their depth.

Tessar? You've read Dune? o_O

You're my new favourite person!

Be afraid... be very afraid....

Read them! Read them all! Or I'll kick you in the goulies. :mad:

;)

[Tessar]

Tessar? You've read Dune? o_O

You're my new favourite person!


*smooch* You know you love me anyways ;).

Heh, yes I read them. Like I said not all of them because they started being a chore to read... I enjoyed it untill everyone was a Super God who could kill anyone with a look.

Plus it was kind of sad about Paul :(. And I hated Leto. Little #($%(# ;).

[Lenya]

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

The series deffinately slows down, but it gets better again - book 9 was totally my favourite. Unfortunately book 10 wasn't that good.

[Tessar]

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

[Lief Erikson]

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.
I utterly agree :D. Of course, I haven't reread any of the books. That's one part which I did reread, though. I hardly ever reread, but that scene of that book I've reread at least twice. I agree with you completely, a brilliantly created construct on Robert Jordan's part. Robert Jordan is great with at the descriptions of all his action sequences, and that one is around the top. I probably would say flat out at the top, only I haven't read any of the other books in ages, so I hardly remember their fight scenes well enough to compare. I definitely love that one around the top, though :D.

[Lenya]

That was a stunning part, but my fav was where they fixed the weather. That whole chapter was stunning!

[Beren3000]

One of the parts that gave me goosebumps in the Path of Daggers: when Rand is seized by madness and shouts: "I do not fear you Shai'tan! I am the storm!"
I haven't got to reading book 9 yet, so that will have to be my favorite WOT quote for the moment :)
Btw, did you guys know that Shai'tan is the Arabic word for Satan?

[Lenya]

Enjoy book 9. It was my favourite by far. So much is going to happen in there :)

[Beren3000]

Is any of you familiar with Nietzsche's idea of Übermensch?
We've been studying about it in English class. Don't you think a tavere'n is an Übermensch?

[Lenya]

Don't think i've heard of it. what is an Übermensch? Apart from being kind of like tavere'n , that is.

[Elemmírë]

A neat idea, Beren. There's an article about the meaning of Übermensch here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DCbermensch). I guess the word means "Superhuman" and basically describes someone who has broken away from God and conventions and has to create his own new moral ideas. Do I have it right, Beren? I haven't studies Nietzsche yet, though I find his ideas to be fascinating...

To me, the ideas of tavere'n and Übermensch seem somewhat different. The only similarity IMHO is that both seem to "make their own fate," so to speak, though I'm not quite sure if this is completely true for tavere'n, the definition of which I always took to mean someone around whom many fates are woven. Does that make sense? I don't have the books at hand...

As for my favourite part, I liked it when Nynaeve finally broke through her block and was able to use Saidar. :)

Though Rand cleaning Saidin was incredible too... :D

And, well, a lot of parts... :p

[Beren3000]

A neat idea, Beren. There's an article about the meaning of Übermensch here. I guess the word means "Superhuman" and basically describes someone who has broken away from God and conventions and has to create his own new moral ideas. Do I have it right, Beren? I haven't studies Nietzsche yet, though I find his ideas to be fascinating...
First of all, thanks for the link! :)
Yes, you got it right (at least as far as I understand it). But the thing is, we're discussing the idea of Übermensch in relation to a novel called Demian by Herman Hesse. Have you read it? This novel seems to suggest, among other things, that people who enjoy the qualities of Übermensch can impose their will on others. So that's what basically reminded me of taver'en.

[Elemmírë]

No, I haven't read it. Hm... that seems a bit closer.

Do you mean unconsciously or consciously imposing their will upon others? When I think of tavere'n, imposing one's will does not come to mind, exactly. It seems more like a person around whom other fates are woven, instead of a person who can bind other fates to them.

Unconsciously, perhaps this is imposing will... but I'm not sure.

[brownjenkins]

No, I haven't read it. Hm... that seems a bit closer.

Do you mean unconsciously or consciously imposing their will upon others? When I think of tavere'n, imposing one's will does not come to mind, exactly. It seems more like a person around whom other fates are woven, instead of a person who can bind other fates to them.

Unconsciously, perhaps this is imposing will... but I'm not sure.

i agree that this seems to be how jordan sees it... not really a matter of "choice"

[Beren3000]

Well that novel (Demian) seems to suggest that it is done consciously, through the exercise of one's will power. However, it might be a purely symbolic thing. The whole novel could be interpreted as an allegory, as far as I'm concerned. But there's this quote from it that reminded me so much of tavere'n. The novel is set before WWI. And this Übermensch (who also seems to be endowed of foresight) foretells a great conflict to come and tells his friend that after the war, people will seek new identities and shed off their old ideals and then it would be up to them (the Übermensches :rolleyes: ) to build this new world; he tells him:
"The will of the future will gather around us". That sounds just like a tavere'n to me, changing the course of history and all that.
By the way, according to my English teacher, Nietzsche considered the following people as Übermensch:
-Jesus
-Napoleon
-Alexander the Great
etc... IOW, great leaders. But it seems to me that RJ would also call these people tavere'n: people who shaped their fate rather than their fate them. When it comes to the matter of being aware of doing that, I have no point to make :o

[Elemmírë]

Oh, I agree. Those people would definitely be ta'veren, according to the definition of the word (which I finally looked up :D):
A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.
I see nothing conscious in that. :)

However, because someone could be considered both ta'veren and Übermensch does not mean that the two words are synonyms for each other.

Also, I don't believe (now seeing the true definition :rolleyes: ) that ta'veren are definitely able to shape their own fate... If anything, it seems to me that they would have less say in their destiny than most, if fate is so dependent upon them. :)

[Lenya]

Ta'veren can't control their own fate. Rand knew that and stopped fighting it. He also wanted Mat (I think) to realise it, for his own sake - that it is imposible to fight his fate and thus he should just go with the flow.

I don't believe they can control other's fates willingly either. and yes, by what I hear of an Übermensch, I do believe they are very closely related.

[Pytt]

Now I have started on book six. And the beginning is very good, a short summary from all the main characters. I hope it is as good as you people say, and I will tell you what I think when I have finished :)

besides, Beren 3000, you asked for the things I liked best in the books, and I remembered I really enjoied it when Mat beat GAwyn and Galhad in with a quarter staff in the third book, maybe. or was it the fourth? anyway, I loved that. :)

[Tessar]

It was the third :D *is rereading them*

[Pytt]

ok. :)
How far have you got rereading?

[Beren3000]

How do you people envision Tarmon Gai'don?
I personally see it as a series of battles on all fronts (in all nations) at once; and somehow all these battles will revolve around the central one between Rand and Shai'tan. I don't think that Rand will die, do you?

[Pytt]

Wow, this is a huge serie :o is there any clue how many books Jordan will write before Tarmon Gaidon comes?

but, the question.
Yes, I imagine it like you Beren. Shadowspawn mingling out from everywhere, the Darkfriends reaveling themselves, and the Forsaken ones standing up, if Rand don't kill all of them before.
But I don't know where the battle between Rand and Shai'tan will be. I can't really imganie them battling at Shaoyl Gul(is that th way it is written, don't remember clearly), but somewhere up in the heaven, like above Falme, or like that when he fights the forsaken, is it Ishammael :confused: , right after he weilds Calandor.

[Beren3000]

is there any clue how many books Jordan will write before Tarmon Gaidon comes?
RJ says the series will be 12-13 books long; so we have 2-3 books to go.

I can't really imganie them battling at Shaoyl Gul(is that th way it is written, don't remember clearly)
One of the prophecies of the Dragon says that " his blood will be spilled on the black rock" or something. Shayol Ghul is the only place with black rocks, so...

is it Ishammael
Read ahead to find out!

[Pytt]

RJ says the series will be 12-13 books long; so we have 2-3 books to go.
ok :) that was not so bad..


One of the prophecies of the Dragon says that " his blood will be spilled on the black rock" or something. Shayol Ghul is the only place with black rocks, so...
Yeah, I know about that, but I can't really imganie it. I think the way he battled the Forsaken I think is Ishammael, is on proper way. or else he will be marching up to Shayol Gul and challangeing Shai'tan. Maybe he gets his hundred companions? I guess you guys know... :rolleyes:

Read ahead to find out!
yes! I ceartainly will!

[Beren3000]

I think the way he battled the Forsaken I think is Ishammael, is on proper way. or else he will be marching up to Shayol Gul and challangeing Shai'tan.
But we are given the impression that Shayol Ghul is in a different plane of existence; you've started with the prologue to book 6, you should know! So I don't think that a battle at Shayol Ghul contradicts your imagination as to how the battle should be.

[Pytt]

yeah, I have read that. I think I agree with you. I didn't think about it that way. :)

[Lenya]

Beren, you have an interesting idee of Tarmon Gai'don. I also think it will take place on more than one front, but not all over. I believe that it will only take place at 3 fronts - around Rand, Mat and Perrin. I don't think they will be together.

No, I believe Rand will survive it. Though I don't think he will ever quite recover of it - kind of like with the wound he has, but worse.

As for how many books, I heard it is 12. I haven't heard anything of a 13th book, but who knows. I just hope he will finish them before finishing his prologues.

[Beren3000]

I believe that it will only take place at 3 fronts - around Rand, Mat and Perrin. I don't think they will be together.
No, I rather believe that each of these people will be on a certain "front" of the battle. And what about Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene?

[Pytt]

Beren, you have an interesting idee of Tarmon Gai'don. I also think it will take place on more than one front, but not all over. I believe that it will only take place at 3 fronts - around Rand, Mat and Perrin. I don't think they will be together.

No, I believe Rand will survive it. Though I don't think he will ever quite recover of it - kind of like with the wound he has, but worse.



I don't think it will only be around the ta'veren. as Beren says, what about Egwene and that lot? But the main battle, the thing that counts, is with Rand and probabøy the two others. But if they will fight together or divided, I am not sure of.

What you said about him survive it, I began thinking of Frodo, and the Nazgul knife. it is kind of the same way.

[Lenya]

No, I rather believe that each of these people will be on a certain "front" of the battle. And what about Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene?

Do you mean they will be together or apart? I meant together.

I think N & Elyne will be with Rand, maybe Egwene too - or she will be with Perrin. I think you know who I think Mat will be with, but I won't say it, cause it might just spoil something big for Pytt ;)

What you said about him survive it, I began thinking of Frodo, and the Nazgul knife. it is kind of the same way.

That's kind of true, I haven't thought about it. Except that Rand took his wound willingly. That was cool.

[Beren3000]

That was cool.
I absolutely agree! I think it's especially cool that RJ calls it "sheathing the sword".

[Lenya]

Yeah :) I guess Rand isn't always an idiot. Sometimes he does the right things.

[Beren3000]

I guess Rand isn't always an idiot
:eek: when does Rand act as an idiot???

[Lenya]

Always. He's to hot headed, he refuses to listen to advise, he is rather inconsiderate of other people's feelings and he does a lot of stuff just wrong. Oh, and he is incapable of trusting anyone. This might be kind of understanding due to the fact that he is the Dragon Reborn, but it isn't a very good excuse. He is still to difficult and he makes things so difficult for himself. Lets just say his not my favourite character.

[Beren3000]

Always. He's to hot headed, he refuses to listen to advise, he is rather inconsiderate of other people's feelings and he does a lot of stuff just wrong. Oh, and he is incapable of trusting anyone. This might be kind of understanding due to the fact that he is the Dragon Reborn, but it isn't a very good excuse. He is still to difficult and he makes things so difficult for himself. Lets just say his not my favourite character.
Just give me some time to gather up my quotes and I'll disprove you! :)

[Lenya]

That's fine with me. I'll still stick with my decision ;)

[Pytt]

Do you mean they will be together or apart? I meant together.

I think N & Elyne will be with Rand, maybe Egwene too - or she will be with Perrin. I think you know who I think Mat will be with, but I won't say it, cause it might just spoil something big for Pytt ;)

Thanks for that :)



That's kind of true, I haven't thought about it. Except that Rand took his wound willingly. That was cool.

yeah, and as you said that he called it "sheating the sword". that was cool.

Always. He's to hot headed, he refuses to listen to advise, he is rather inconsiderate of other people's feelings and he does a lot of stuff just wrong. Oh, and he is incapable of trusting anyone. This might be kind of understanding due to the fact that he is the Dragon Reborn, but it isn't a very good excuse. He is still to difficult and he makes things so difficult for himself. Lets just say his not my favourite character.

I think you are wrong. not completely, he is in fact a bit stupid sometimes. :rolleyes:
He need to trust his own judgements, and he lsten to advise too. But it isn't everyone he can trust, which I support him in. Look how Moiraine behaved the first time they were together. it wasn't until the end he learned to trust her, and she said never to trust an Aes Sedai, so I think he does the right thing.
He does think about it sometimes, about those letters Elayne wrote, and Min, who isn't laughing at him and calling him fool all of the time, and Avihenda who showed her true self. How can you accept he should handel? I mean, he has the whole band of Forsakens to crush!
and as you say, he is the Dragon Reborn. he hear the voice of Lews Therin inside his head.
I don't know if he is my fav character, but I like him alot. he is cool, and there is something about him.

[Lenya]

I think you are wrong. not completely, he is in fact a bit stupid sometimes. :rolleyes:
He need to trust his own judgements, and he lsten to advise too. But it isn't everyone he can trust, which I support him in. Look how Moiraine behaved the first time they were together. it wasn't until the end he learned to trust her, and she said never to trust an Aes Sedai, so I think he does the right thing.
He does think about it sometimes, about those letters Elayne wrote, and Min, who isn't laughing at him and calling him fool all of the time, and Avihenda who showed her true self. How can you accept he should handel? I mean, he has the whole band of Forsakens to crush!
and as you say, he is the Dragon Reborn. he hear the voice of Lews Therin inside his head.
I don't know if he is my fav character, but I like him alot. he is cool, and there is something about him.

He doesn't have to do as they say, but he should at least pretend to listen to them and not act childish when they do make him listen to them. At least he listens to Ruac and Bashere. As for me, I wouldn't be able to survive a week with him.

[Beren3000]

Lenya, as regards Rand being stupid: I don't have any quotes unfortunately (too lazy to dig them up :o ), but I'll cite some evidence to his favor anyway:

-He outwits Lanfear and Asmodean both.
-He catches Rahvin by surprise
-About his sullenness: who wouldn't be sullen around Nynaeve, Elayne and any other woman in RJ's world? I mean, if I met someone like Nynaeve in real life, it'd be all I can do not to beat the crap out of her!
-Sure he can get proud, self-absorbed, morbid, etc... at times but look what he's facing! He has to wake up everyday to a guilty conscience concerning the people he caused to die, he's fighting madness and he's almost certain he's going to have to die for all the world.

[Lenya]

Lenya, as regards Rand being stupid: I don't have any quotes unfortunately (too lazy to dig them up :o ), but I'll cite some evidence to his favor anyway:

-He outwits Lanfear and Asmodean both.
-He catches Rahvin by surprise
-About his sullenness: who wouldn't be sullen around Nynaeve, Elayne and any other woman in RJ's world? I mean, if I met someone like Nynaeve in real life, it'd be all I can do not to beat the crap out of her!
-Sure he can get proud, self-absorbed, morbid, etc... at times but look what he's facing! He has to wake up everyday to a guilty conscience concerning the people he caused to die, he's fighting madness and he's almost certain he's going to have to die for all the world.

- Lanfear and Asmodean were both so instensely absorbed in their own worlds that abselutely anyone could take advantage of them. Take for example Asmodean: al he could think of was getting inside the city that he got completely careless (always walking around it) and he trusted Lanfear. That's a no no. I must say he had guts not falling for Lanfear.

-As for Rahvin, that was good. I'll give him that.

-he isn't always around those women and I think he should just get his attitude changed about them.

-There's no excuse for being proud and self-absorbed, at least not all the time. He should be able to handle that if he tries.

-and as for morbid, that's fine. He just shouldn't sulk.

[Beren3000]

Here you go, Pytt:
I just finished book 6 in WoT. really great, as you said Beren but you mentioned the following is a little dull, until the ninth?(maybe take it in the WoT thread
I'm glad you liked it; and yes, the series does slow down in intensity (I wouldn't go as far as saying "dull", though) :(
Don't you just love Rand's attittude with the Aes Sedai at the end? And they had it coming, too! :evil:

[Pytt]

I need to go to school :o But Rand was awesome. I really felt "oh, what now?" when they captured him. I say more about it after school.

[Lenya]

Hi, just peeking in. Yes, he did act cool then, even I loved it :p and yes, they totally deserved it. The end of the book was stunning - That part about bow down or we will make you (or something like that)

[Tessar]

Oie, they did indeed have it coming.

Snotty ol' wenches ;).

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...

[Beren3000]

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...
Well well, what do we have here? Another Rand hater? :mad:
Kindly explain why you think Rand needs "his arse kicked".

[Tessar]

1. He's going insane.

2. He thinks he's got to save the world by himself.

3. He has no respect for anyone.

4. Since he's gained his Power he's lost all sense of tact and bullies everyone into doing what he wants.

5. He's acting like a stuck-up git!

Cadsuane totally rocks :D

[Pytt]

Oie, they did indeed have it coming.

Snotty ol' wenches ;).

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...

Please take notice that I have only just started on book 7, so I have no idea of who this Cadsuane is. please take care, thank you :)

[Tessar]

I thought Cadsuane was in book six. Meh, I'm not sure.

Either way, read faster ;).

[Lief Erikson]

1. He's going insane.

2. He thinks he's got to save the world by himself.

3. He has no respect for anyone.

4. Since he's gained his Power he's lost all sense of tact and bullies everyone into doing what he wants.

5. He's acting like a stuck-up git!

Cadsuane totally rocks :D
I don't understand her personality well enough to say.

I completely agree about the Aes Sedai having that coming. Rand is my favorite character in the books, the one I most enjoy reading about.
Point 1 you're a little off track on (though you already knew that), for he's not going insane any more. Point 2 you're correct on, but he DOES have to save the world by himself! It's written in the prophecies of the Dragon. So it's logical he thinks that. 3, 4 and 5 you're dead on correct about. However, every other character is exactly the same, except some of them are worse.
(continues his defense of Rand)

Self-centeredness is the key character trait Robert Jordan develops in all his characters (who are almost all precisely the same, personality-wise). I don't find them actually all that different from the villains. The villains are just further along the same path. The good guys don't love with anything more then human love- there is no giving, no humility, no generosity in their thought processes at all. It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another. I feel that Rand is actually doing some good disciplinary work when he twists them around his finger. It's not just the Aes Sedai. If half the characters in the series died in the next book, I wouldn't be sorry at all. I would just be a bit surprised, that's all. Rand actually has a rather noble objective- giving up his life for the world. He also has another noble objective- uniting the world so that it will be prepared for Tarmon Gaidon. If he bullies some bullies to get there, I forgive him.
- Lanfear and Asmodean were both so instensely absorbed in their own worlds that abselutely anyone could take advantage of them. Take for example Asmodean: al he could think of was getting inside the city that he got completely careless (always walking around it) and he trusted Lanfear. That's a no no. I must say he had guts not falling for Lanfear.
Well, unfortunately it's been too long since I read the book, so I can't argue much on the specific points you brought up. However, I do remember from the history I read to "The Wheel of Time" that those two individuals were extremely high ranking leaders in the Shadow. They are not the kind of individuals "anyone could take advantage of".
-he isn't always around those women and I think he should just get his attitude changed about them.
Any negative attitude Rand has toward any of Robert Jordan's women, I am in complete support of.
-There's no excuse for being proud and self-absorbed, at least not all the time. He should be able to handle that if he tries.
I agree that he's proud and self-absorbed. Who isn't, in Robert Jordan's world? I have yet to see a good character in the book. He is hammered at from every side by almost everyone. Very few in the story have Rand's objectives in mind, and Tarmon Gaidon (I think that is the name) is at hand.
-and as for morbid, that's fine. He just shouldn't sulk.
If you mean his grieving for the dead, isn't that a noble character trait? It shows his compassion. He has become hardened by his surroundings, by what people have done to him and to those around him. He is hardened by what he has been forced to do. I see the different difficult characteristics- pride, iron will, whatever else you may come up with, I see those largely forced into him. If you look at him in the beginning of the series, he wasn't like that. He was made like that by those around him, by his enemies and his "friends", and by the rulers of the nations who refuse to pay attention to the desperate importance of the hour. He's the one that's most aware, and his goal succeeding is THE important thing. Whatever the fates of these different struggles going on right now, the clashes between Egwene and Elaida, Perrin and the Aiel, Elayne and her opponents, the Seanchin and those they fight, whatever the conclusions of all those struggles, they are nothing compared to what Rand is trying to do. Rand's mission is the important mission, and no one else really seems to be cooperating. The primary ones that join him are those he takes by force. And the people of the Prophet, of course :p So anyway, my sympathy is with Rand, and I like him as a person a lot. I actually am rather annoyed at Cadsuane, trying to get her claws on him and make him change. People like her are the ones that made him what he is now in the first place. :mad: They should all die, or be made to serve . . . all of them . . . :evil: :evil: :D

[Pytt]

Thanks for covering Lief. :)
Interesting thoughts, can't wait till I'm finished!

But there was a thing I wondered about. In book 7, Leane says she are going to Bryne's camp to meet a guy, she is in looking for a good warder. I began thinking about if all Aes Sedai threats there warders like lovers, or husbands. A little later, the whole thing of passing Lan's bond without getting his acceptance, and all that(don't remember the name of the Aes Sedai) But there it is stated that she married all of her warders. Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?

[brownjenkins]

Self-centeredness is the key character trait Robert Jordan develops in all his characters (who are almost all precisely the same, personality-wise). I don't find them actually all that different from the villains. The villains are just further along the same path. The good guys don't love with anything more then human love- there is no giving, no humility, no generosity in their thought processes at all. It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another. I feel that Rand is actually doing some good disciplinary work when he twists them around his finger. It's not just the Aes Sedai. If half the characters in the series died in the next book, I wouldn't be sorry at all. I would just be a bit surprised, that's all. Rand actually has a rather noble objective- giving up his life for the world. He also has another noble objective- uniting the world so that it will be prepared for Tarmon Gaidon. If he bullies some bullies to get there, I forgive him.

i agree 100%... Rand is one of the very few characters who looks past his own self-interest... a few others with a bit of nobility would be Loial, Perrin, Lan and Moiraine

[brownjenkins]

Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?

if i remember correctly, she does... but that is not the case with all... it's kind of a personal choice thing

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for covering Lief. :)
Interesting thoughts, can't wait till I'm finished!

But there was a thing I wondered about. In book 7, Leane says she are going to Bryne's camp to meet a guy, she is in looking for a good warder. I began thinking about if all Aes Sedai threats there warders like lovers, or husbands. A little later, the whole thing of passing Lan's bond without getting his acceptance, and all that(don't remember the name of the Aes Sedai) But there it is stated that she married all of her warders. Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?
I don't know about Leane specifically. However, I can tell you that the Green Ajah is the main Ajah that marries its warders or has sexual relations outside of wedlock with them. The Red doesn't have many (any?) Warders at all. The Green is the most "sexually free", and I don't how much are the others, except the Red.
i agree 100%... Rand is one of the very few characters who looks past his own self-interest... a few others with a bit of nobility would be Loial, Perrin, Lan and Moiraine
Loial I definitely agree about. Lan and Moiraine I also think I agree about, though I'm less positive. It's been a while since I've seen Loial actively involved in a book, but I seem to remember him being quite nice. That's an extremely rare quality for an RJ character ;). Perrin I have my doubts about. I think he's soon going to be committing adultery, and we've seen his readiness to torture someone to accomplish his aims, which I don't regard as noble. A few books ago I would have agreed with you and pointed to him immediately, but right now he's in the act of collapsing in my esteem.

[Elemmírë]

I rather like the Forsaken. :p And that False Dragon...Logain... I don't know why, though.

Anyway, I think you may be right, Lief. But I've got little sympathy for Perrin myself... I think he started boring me several books back. *shrug*

Meh. I've forgotten just about everything. I'll be leaving now. :p

[Wayfarer]

...some stuff... all his characters .... l precisely the same ...some more stuff... ...It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another... Any negative attitude Rand has toward any of Robert Jordan's women, I am in complete support of.... ...other stuff...

Which is exactly why Robert Jordan is a lousy author. Everything he writes is the sort of self serving, two-dimensional, bland, repetitive, sex/power fantasy, with absolutely no ... where was I going with this? *ahem* Yes. He happens to have occassional spots of good writing, but other than that...

[Lief Erikson]

I still enjoy the books :).

[brownjenkins]

i enjoy them too... he is a good writer... i just think he could use a dilligent editor these days to force him back to the point every so often ;)

[Pytt]

Yes, he is a very good writer. I really like his books, but your point has made me thinking, Lief. There don't seem to be any truly goodhearted characters in his books. I have not got far enough to know about Perrin, but this far I think he is a good character. But what you writed changes that a bit. Loial is one of the true noble. And some of the Aiel could be. in their strange way.

[Tessar]

Possibly the reason I dislike Rand in general is because he's a Power Player ;) :p.

I mean think about it.

He's stabbed with an evil dagger, then hops out of bed as soon as he wakes up and runs off and actually manages to kill (if indirectly) one of the forsaken, and right as he's about to die (surprise, surprise...) some one shows up and saves him! Whoop-de-do.

He's also SO powerful that he stills several Aes Sedai when he breaks their weave. I mean knocking them out or something, but STILLING them that easily?

Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block, but Cadsuane has hers because she's lived for an unbelievable amount of time for an Aes Sedai who, we assume, is still bound to the Oath Rod, and because she's WORKED for her authority for years and years. Channelers with more strength than her hop to it when she's around. With Rand they just do every little thing they can to annoy him.

In addition, I think that Cadsuane rocks because she has no fear of Male Channelers whatsoever. I mean the three other women have no fear because they love Rand, but with Cadsuane it has nothing to do with wanting to hop into Rand's bed.

I do enjoy reading Rand's parts, and I enjoy most of the parts in the books, but I just don't like Rand's character.

[brownjenkins]

i'm not a huge cadsuane fan... way too much shiftyness and scheming for my taste... rand's pretty straight up with people, and i can respect that

the one thing that probably bugs me the most is how you can't help but think that if the "good" people just relaxed for a moment and actually trusted one another they'd all figure out that they are in it together

i think rand's a good guy deep down, just kinda sick of being mislead and told half-truths by everyone from moiraine to cadsuane

[Wayfarer]

Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block, but Cadsuane has hers because she's lived for an unbelievable amount of time for an Aes Sedai who, we assume, is still bound to the Oath Rod, and because she's WORKED for her authority for years and years. Channelers with more strength than her hop to it when she's around. With Rand they just do every little thing they can to annoy him.

Hmm. Note that:

A) Aes Sedai don't work for their authority. They just assume that they deserve to have whatever they want. I can't think of a single example of someone who gets respect as an Aes Sedai due to their hard work. It's pretty clear that the pecking order around the Aes Sedai has never been a meritocracy - it's a bunch of bullies throwing their weight around.

B) Cadsuane is repeatedly referred to as a reference point when comparing some other woman that's "Strong in the Power". I.E. If I remember correctly, Moraine and Siuan were extraordinary because they were the first recruits in hundreds of years that could approach Cadsuane's power, and Elayne, Egwyn, Aviendha, and co, are all really speshul because they're even more powerful. So... no, the only Aes Sedai stronger than Cadsuane are pretty much the 'OMG SUPAR POWERFUL' new discoveries who haven't had full training yet - and thus, aren't really considered a match for her.

C) The difference between how the Aes Sedai treat Rand versus how they treat Cadsuane really doesn't have anything to do with who's more qualified to have their respect - it has everything to do with the fact that Robert Jordan is pretty much unable to write a character who isn't an arrogant sod, and that the Aes Sedai automatically feel contempt for anyone who isn't Aes Sedai, while at the same time have an ingrained compulsion to brown-nose any Aes Sedai of higher status than them.

D) That Cadsuane has no fear of Male Channelers says less about her strength of character than it does about the weakness of the Aes Sedai as a whole. Notice how they're just a little insecure about ANYONE or ANYTHING that impinges on their ability to pretend they're superior to ... well, existance: Male Channelers? EVIL! Aiel Wise Ones? Wilders! Bad! Seafolk Windfinders? Must Be Trained In Our Ways! Kinswomen? Traitors! Heritics! Unworthy! Seanchan Sul'dam? *whimper*

So, Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block. Cadsuane has her authority not only because she held that title for centuries, but becuase she's still the biggest bully on the block that belongs to the 'cool kids' clique and went through proper channels to get there. Big difference. :rolleyes:

But seriously, folks. Tessar brings up the second reason why Robert Jordan's writings are firmly entrenched in the status of Lame Mediocrity. Every other character has to be 'the best thing since sliced bread', in a constant game of one-upmanship. Every character has to be the best at something (or perferably, the best at everything), and then in order to provide interest he has to come up with even more powerful characters, or give existing characters a power up.

And of course there's the annoying fact that, with a few notable exceptions, all this power comes free of charge with no limitations. What's the point of the Forsaken having sold their souls and all of that if random people from the backwoods come along that are more powerful than they are?

[Beren3000]

Wayfarer,
I seriously can't understand your bleak outlook on RJ's characters! How can you say that they're "two-dimensional" and "bland"? I mean Rand is a very well-rounded character, IMO and Nynaeve and Min, etc... It's not all about power plays or "one-upmanship" as you put it. Each character has his/her own motivations and history and the main characters even more so than any other.
the one thing that probably bugs me the most is how you can't help but think that if the "good" people just relaxed for a moment and actually trusted one another they'd all figure out that they are in it together
I know what you're saying! I've always thought that this would make things much easier! However, I think that such power struggles (and this counts as an answer to your arguments, too, Wayfarer) are justified in RJ's world. Look at the Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai: it's just a simplified version of the Taoist yin-yang symbol. According to the yin-yang concept, the world is all about opposites: good and evil, light and dark, man and woman, etc...
The relationship between these opposites is symbolised by the yin-yang. One of the halves is called "male" and the other "female". The belief is, harmony and peace can only take place through the continuous struggle and eventual evening out of these opposites. Along these lines, it only seems probable that "the male half" in RJ's world would be in continuous struggle with "the female half".
P.S. All this information about the yin-yang is recollection from a past reading. If someone else is more knowledgable on the subject, please correct me!

[Pytt]

Last night I finaly met this Cadsuane. And I don't know what I think of her. My first impression of her is that Rand have a worthy opponent. But, I don't know how this will work out, but I'll guess I know in a few pages or so :)
I kind of like her, something in the way she acts, but I'm mainly on Rand's side, and I can hardly imagine Cadsuane to be someone like Moiraine for example, who he trusts.

I don't know, really what I think about RJ's characters. Wayfarer I think put it a bit harsh. The characters are a bit more complex than that. But it looks like everyone has to be 'bad' in some way. Loial, as said before, I find as almost the only truly good person in the books so far. And Moiraine.

But I've to read more! :)

[brownjenkins]

I know what you're saying! I've always thought that this would make things much easier! However, I think that such power struggles (and this counts as an answer to your arguments, too, Wayfarer) are justified in RJ's world. Look at the Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai: it's just a simplified version of the Taoist yin-yang symbol. According to the yin-yang concept, the world is all about opposites: good and evil, light and dark, man and woman, etc...

i agree... it is one way to approach a story... if the story did not continue to get more and more and more dragged out, i'd probably be willing to take it for what it is... i dropped "crossroads" halfway in... but when (if ;) ) the series is complete... i'll pick up from there and read the rest

[Wayfarer]

Hey now. It's not RJ's characters I have a bleak outlook on.

Sure, they're are all made from the same mold, and basically identical, and certainly most of them are blatant stereotypes, but the main characters at least can be interesting when given the proper attention (which not all the books do).

No, what I said was that everything Robert Jordan writes is self serving, two-dimensional, bland, repetitive, sex/power fantasy... and so forth. It's the plot, the writing, the whole

I don't know how to adequately describe it. It's like a self-insertion written by a moderately literate but acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family, who is compensating for his complete and utter social ineptitude by portraying a caricature of human interaction which he learned from watching a combination of late-night action movies and daytime television.

Yeah. Something like that.

[Lief Erikson]

And of course there's the annoying fact that, with a few notable exceptions, all this power comes free of charge with no limitations. What's the point of the Forsaken having sold their souls and all of that if random people from the backwoods come along that are more powerful than they are?
I don't know about you, but I haven't encountered anyone more powerful then Forsaken except Rand Al'Thor. He definitely is not a random person. He is the Dragon Reborn :P. Whenever somebody else defeats one of the Forsaken, it generally is because of having very good luck. Nynaeve also is up there, but she doesn't have anything near the skill of the Forsaken, so I still consider her success simply good luck.

You know Wayfarer, there are several aspects of RJ's writing that you don't mention, but which I feel I ought to bring up. We here are focusing on discussing those aspects of his writing that could or should be better. I wish I could see improvement in his character development (in a different series; it's too late for the characters of this one), in his plot focuses, and in maintaining brevity. However, I greatly enjoy his books for:
1) Rand :). Virtually the only character I like.
2) Action sequences.
3) The depth and complexity of the world RJ has developed.
4) Skillful writing style.

One cannot to me deny the skill of his writing, the ability to make what he imagines real. There is nothing lame in his ability to write. His ability to write action sequences is definitely great, and the complexity of his world is amazing. There is a vast history he has created to this world, a complex and well thought-out magical system, and numerous cultures. Thought has been put into even details of these different cultures. Things like appearance, custom, ways of speaking have all been thought out in depth. Most writers are way below Robert Jordan in their ability to invent so much. Rand Al'Thor to me makes the story. None of the plotlines are as interesting as his, and he is the one that keeps me reading. I've already spoken my views on Rand earlier on in this thread. Robert Jordan's writing style, interesting (normally) plotlines, his splendily written action scenes and his amazing world I believe are the wonderful aspects of his writing. Possibly there is more that I have skipped. His errors many of you have pointed out, and I agree about many of those points. I just disagree with anyone who objects to Rand ;). And I like the books :D.

[Wayfarer]

Little argument there. Hey, I haven't blacklisted him, so obviously I don't think his writing is unsalvagable. The core of the story itself is still good.

However, everything I said is still true. :p

It's like a self-insertion written by a moderately literate but acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family, who is compensating for his complete and utter social ineptitude by portraying a caricature of human interaction which he learned from watching a combination of late-night action movies and daytime television.

[Tessar]

Wayfarer you're closer to being an "acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family" than R.J. is ;).

[Lief Erikson]

Little argument there. Hey, I haven't blacklisted him, so obviously I don't think his writing is unsalvagable. The core of the story itself is still good.

However, everything I said is still true. :p
I agreed with almost all of your post. Only the last paragraph I really didn't agree with (though beating Forsaken by luck is pretty lame), and the second to last I question. How do you define "power"? If you're only talking about the magical power, I will debate. If you broaden your definition to include political power, then I may have to agree ;).

I definitely agree about the Aes Sedai and Cadsuane, by the way.

By the way, Wayfarer, what are you doing reading these books anyway? You got pretty far on them before putting them down, if you've put them down, I must say ;).

[Wayfarer]

By the way, Wayfarer, what are you doing reading these books anyway? You got pretty far on them before putting them down, if you've put them down, I must say . Yeah. I finally stopped reading just before Knife of Dreams.

I agreed with almost all of your post. Only the last paragraph I really didn't agree with (though beating Forsaken by luck is pretty lame), and the second to last I question. How do you define "power"? If you're only talking about the magical power, I will debate. If you broaden your definition to include political power, then I may have to agree . Just power. And that's not even the right word, Id on't think.

Take Rand, for instance. Being the main character and the Dragon Reborn, he can probably be forgiven, but he is: The Most Powerful Channeler Ever, A Master Swordsman and Archer, a Natural Politician, Impressively Shrewd, and Able to Sexually Satisfy the needs of Three Seperate Women. At Once. At Their Request. The Kingships, Lordships, and Titles are just icing.

Okay. Then: Perrin is Big, Strong, Smart, Handsome, Skilled, Able to Talk to Wolves, Able to Enter Dreams, and a Master Axeman. Oh. And He's a Lord with a beautiful wife. Matt is Quick-witted, Handsome, Fantastically Lucky, with the Knowledge of Every Military Leader in History, Immunity To Sai'dar, and his own army. Incidentally, he's going to marry the princess of what is quite possibly the most powerful nation on his planet.

Okay. So. Accepting that those are the main characters, and have the right to be freaky scary... and skipping over the Forsaken because they need to challenge those three somehow...

Egwyn, Elayne, and Nynaeve all seem to be uncannily strong in the force, or whatever, able to become Amirlyn (even over only half the Aes Sedai), Queen, or whatever, or able to Capture and Imprison one of the Forsaken for a time. Oh, just in passing it should be mentioned that they've rediscovered the art of crafting Ter'Angreal, which has been lost for millenia, and have learned numerous other techniques (dreamwalking, teleportation, and so on) that have likewise been lost for ages.

The Wise Ones, Sea Folk, and the Sul'Dam all have members that match or exceed those three in power. You may recall a certain instance in a certain book where a certain channeler from a certain invading country faces down a certain Forsaken Ex-Girlfriend of Lews Therins. And wins. That's pretty powerful, if you ask me.

Then you've got a list of characters that's pages long, and every one of them seems to be a Powerful Channeler, or a Master Warrior, or a Leading Noble... I'm sure you get the point. What I mean isn't nescessarily 'the one power' as much as 'character overpowered'.


------

The single biggest flaw Robert Jordan has, of course, is what I look at as an inability to write a good, clean narrative. It just drags on and on, going from one thing to another to another. If he'd just stick to the story instead of spending ten pages detailing the petty concerns of every two-bit character that appears in the story it would be a lot better.

Like you said: The story is about Rand. Yet in some of the novels the action follows him for only a slim fraction of the time. The worst offender by far, I think, was Crossroads of Twilight, which seemed to ignore Rand entirely so that it could go back and examine the last few hours in the lives of 30 different characters. That's pretty lame.

Edit: Of course this isn't a malady from which he suffers alone. It seems to be more and more common among novelists these days - and that's not a good thing, since more isn't nescessarily better. Heh. Look at how verbose my posting is. :rolleyes:

[Pytt]

But Wayfarer, don't you think those you are listing up should have some special abilities? They are the main characters. Maybe they have a bit much powers all of them, but I think that makes it exiting.

And why is the last poster in the thread Lief? :confused:

[Wayfarer]

*Sigh* That's the problem with the reading public today. They don't understand the difference between being an interesting and engaging character and having nifty powers.

Ask yourself this: Which makes a better story, the parts where Rand is flinging balefire around left and right, laying all to ruin, etc, or the parts that show rand dealing with the consequences and implications of that power? The fact that Rand is The Dragon Reborn drives the story, and creates action, but that by itself it doesn't provide interest.

But you'll notice I said that the main few characters can be justifiably powerful. The problem is that the Wheel of Time seems to have fallen down a slippery slope.

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and is all kinds of powerful.
As a result, Mat and Perrin have to be powerful enough to keep up.
Then the supporting characters have to be amped up to keep up with them.
And random tertiary characters have to be powered up enough that they can actually add something.
Which results in just about everybody in the world being ridiculously powerful.

The problem is that RJ has lost focus... he's spending his time on everything but what's nescessary to the story - detailing obscure customs of various cultures, following minor characters through their morning grooming rituals, showing the interactions of villains who won't actually appear in the story for three books, and running through every single character in the world's "Where was I when Sai'Din was purged" moment. Can we just get the story, please?

[Lief Erikson]

I liked how it showed everyone's reactions to the Sai'din.

[Tessar]

It's "Saidin" and "Saidar" ;).

I guess that, in a way, my attachment to RJ isn't so much that I really, truly love his writing style, it's that through his waffling on for twice as many books as are really needed to make a good story he's created a fascinating world. I suppose that if you're reading for the book itself, Wayfarer, you'll be quite annoyed and bored. I'm intrigued by the politics and such, and have been writing WoT RPGs for a couple of years now.

My writing skill level, although it's probably not more than 'okay' right now, is thanks almost completely to WoT RPGs. I remember Lief and someone else made a few comments when I left the moot for a few months, and then came back and started writing here again. It was because, intrigued by RJ's world, I went and started messing around with it.

So the books he spits out these days might not be as great as his first ones, but I still love RJ for those first few precious gems and the fact that he got me writing.


*twiddles thumbs*

I DO wish he'd hurry up and finish the bloody books though. Burn him. ;)

[Wayfarer]

Apostraphes are sexay.

You did see, Tessar, the part where I admitted to liking the books? Sure, he has lots of neat ideas, I'm just irritated that they aren't better written.

And I, as the consumer of the literature which Jordan is producing, have the right to critisize the parts I don't like. I think I've read enough to be able to judge a book by its contents. :p

You know, I heard that WoT d20 was actually pretty good...

[Falagar]

Egwyn, Elayne, and Nynaeve all seem to be uncannily strong in the force, or whatever, able to become Amirlyn (even over only half the Aes Sedai), Queen, or whatever, or able to Capture and Imprison one of the Forsaken for a time. Oh, just in passing it should be mentioned that they've rediscovered the art of crafting Ter'Angreal, which has been lost for millenia, and have learned numerous other techniques (dreamwalking, teleportation, and so on) that have likewise been lost for ages.
Then again, every new Aes Sedai/Wise One/Windsomething (seapeople copy-cats) /those-who-weren't-really-Aes Sedai they happen to come upon seems to be stronger in the Force - Saidin, sorry - then anyone before (except from Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve, of course).

Combine everything Wayfarer said with the annoying fact that the Evil Gang of Invincible Dark Sorcerors who work for the Really Really Evil Dark Lord are totally inept at...well, anything, except from babbling about how they are going to betray the others, and you have my view on Jordan.
Through the 8 books I have read most of the bad guys and girls have been sitting around talking and abusing/torturing slaves, and at the end they set a trap that despite having been planned for a long time by supposedly intelligent people doesn't work. And then they get themselves killed.

Edit: A few errors corrected.

[Wayfarer]

Yep. :p It's a matter of escalation: When you immediately start off by establishing that a few main individuals are really powerful, and make that the focus of your plot, you basically force yourself into a corner and have to throw in more and more powerful enemies in order to keep up with them, and they have to become more and more powerful in order to defeat those enemies - and it becomes a viscious spiral. When you end off volume one by having the main character singlehandedly destroy a large army, there's only so much you can do for an encore.

Personally, I would have found it significantly more interesting if... well, there's several things that could have been done better, but there's really not much use in going over all of that again.

I will give Robert Jordan, though: His setting is less overpowered and a heck of a lot more interesting than Toril. That's not saying much, but it's something. :p

[Lenya]

OK. After having read all your opinions on RJ, his characters and al of that, I'd like to say a few things. Sorry if its late but I was stranded without internet for rather a long time.

First of all, I loved reading WoT and I can't wait for him to actually finish the thing. I like it mainly because of 4 things:

1) it is very important to me that the characters (especially the main ones) are fully developed, if I can put it that way. In WoT it feels as if I know them all by now and I love that. I can imagine the whole story taking place and I can totally live myself into it. You can't have a good book with wishy-washy people in it. That is why I am a great fan of long storylines and the fact that WoT is already 10 books long and not finished yet doesn't bother me at all - the more the merrier :p

2) like Lief Erikson said, The depth and complexity of the world RJ has developed. He has truly created a realistic world with its own legends, histories, peoples and the things like the Pattern and the World of Dreams (which is btw the best place!) Again, it is not hard to identify with it.

3) unlike in most other cases, the magic in WoT is actually cool. It is based on totally different principals and I find it less fake. I find that PJ succeeded in describing how it works and it forms part of their world, its not just something to add more spice.

4) Its stunning that the whole thing plays of just before Tarmon Gaidon (don't know the spelling). Seeing as how it is possibly the very end of all things, everyone is desperate and pushed to their limits. It ensures a little tension throughout whole storyline. And the fact that everything - habbits, politics, beliefs ect - is changing rappidly for everyone makes it so much more interesting to read about.

As for what Wayfarer said about everyone being bigger and better than the one before, its part of the whole just-before-end-of-the-world thing. The Forsaken has returned, the Dark One is about to break free and the blight is preparing itself for a final attack on the world. Similarly the Seanchan has returned for vengeance, the White Tower is ready to burst open , the Dragon is reborn, the Aiel and Menetheren is stirring again (hence the strength in Nynaeve and co) - the pattern is weaving all its resources together (Min, Cadsuane, Egwene being a Dreamer, Mat's extensive knowledge...) It is all part of the story.

[Lenya]

C'mon, don't let this thread die. I wan't to hear more people's oppinions.

[Daisy Baggins]

I've read all the books, even the New Spring. I think that the books have too many characters, and I find it impossible to keep them all straight. For me there is just enough of interest in each story to make me want to read the next book.

I'd be curious if anyone can answer this. Why does Jordan put in so much extraneous detail that just seems to bog the story down?

[Lenya]

On the extraneous detail, I think he kinda set out to write a looong story as part of his mission. I agree, the books are a bit of a drag. But I'll the thing that saves them is the numerous characters. The story would be boring if you had to read about the same 3 people the whole time. The only thing that keeps me reading on when I get tired of his style is the hope that the next chapter is on one of the guys I like - or I keep reading till I get to that character again to see what happened.

I haven't read New Springs yet, don't think I will, but I can't wait for the story to finish. I wish Jordan would get on with it!

BTW, who's your favourite character(s)? Mine's Egwene & Perrin.

[Daisy Baggins]

My favorite character is Rand. He's the one who is supposed to save the world in the end. I know that he gets rather weird at times, but I think it was the fact that saidin hadn't been cleansed. It was rather like Frodo being corrupted by the ring.


When I mentioned too many characters, I didn't mean the major or even the minor ones. I meant the people he mentions once :confused: for no apparent reason. He also often gives endless details about what people are wearing which has no bearing on the story. Often he'll go on and on about stuff that just bogs down the story and just when I'm about to give up, he'll throw in something that's really good and interesting.

[Beren3000]

When I mentioned too many characters, I didn't mean the major or even the minor ones. I meant the people he mentions once for no apparent reason.
I know what you're saying. Whenever I see this kind of thing I can't help thinking: "he's such a Tolkien rip-off!" IMO, this is his (not very successful) way of ripping-off Tolkien's "historical feel". By that I mean the way Tolkien mentions some interesting tidbits about a character just to give his stories the feel of authenticity, with Tolkien it works but with RJ :rolleyes:

[Wayfarer]

I've never felt (even slightly) the Jordan was a Tolkien ripoff.

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.

[Lief Erikson]

Does anyone have a clue when the next "Wheel of Time" book will be coming out?

[Falagar]

I've never felt (even slightly) the Jordan was a Tolkien ripoff.

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.
I cried "Freemen-ripoff!" when I first read about the Aiel.

Thought the next Jordan-book was due october this year, but may very well be wrong.

[Beren3000]

Personally, I find the Wheel of Time novels have always strongly reminded me of Frank Herbert's writing.
Well, unfortunately I haven't read the Dune books (yet) so I wouldn't know. But most modern fantasy writers (consciously or otherwise) incorporate some Tolkien-ish elements into their stories so if RJ decided to rip-off Herbert, then maybe this included imitating the imitation of Tolkien's style (hope that made sense :rolleyes: )

Thought the next Jordan-book was due october this year, but may very well be wrong.
That's what it says on Dragonmount

[Wayfarer]

Dune isn't really fantasy, though. It's sci-fi with some fantastical elements.
And I really don't think the Wheel of Time (or Dune) is very similar to Tolkien at all. Tolkien's style and setting are both very distinct, and Jordan doesn't come anything close in either category.

[Lenya]

Dune isn't really fantasy, though. It's sci-fi with some fantastical elements.
And I really don't think the Wheel of Time (or Dune) is very similar to Tolkien at all. Tolkien's style and setting are both very distinct, and Jordan doesn't come anything close in either category.

He doesn't come close, but I still enjoyd reading WoT. You should just not expect it to be as good as Tolkien. I don't think its like Tolkien eather, Tolkien's books are more poetic, he writes beautiful things, Jordan doesn't.

[Daisy Baggins]

There's only so many themes in science fiction or fantasy, so it's impossible not to see some similarities. The Aiel don't make me think of the Freemen, but it's a long time since I've read Dune. I think that Jordan has created a distinct world of his own. It doesn't remind me of the Lord of the Rings. I'm rereading the first book-The Eye of the World. This book doesn't have so many extraneous facts, and he doesn't seem to just ramble on. Jordan seems to have been much more disciplined when he wrote it than he was with the later books. I'm not an expert on the Wheel of Time, but I've read that originally he intended to write three books. Now, I think he's on book eleven. At times, he just seems to get carried away with trivia which has no relavance to the story and go on and on and on. Sometimes I want to scream - just get on with it.

[Lenya]

That's just how I feel - the screeming part. And yet I've read all 10 and I'm rather impatiently waiting for the last 2. :rolleyes: we're all hopeless.

[flupke]

I'm reading the 4th book now,starting in it anyway, and the only thing that rteminds me of lord of the rings are the names, and names of places, like mount doom has found a place in WOT as well.
But the writing style isn't similar to that of Tolkien, in fact, only some parts of the storyline remind me of LOTR.
The thing that confuses me the most is when Jordan gets to political.

[Lenya]

The thing that confuses me the most is when Jordan gets to political.

That's just the point. Their politics are so screwed up, none of it makes sence.

[flupke]

I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote :(

[brownjenkins]

I cried "Freemen-ripoff!" when I first read about the Aiel.

me too... conceptually, in terms of culture and personality as a race, they are very similarly drawn... not to mention the obvious desert-nomad similarities

[Beren3000]

I don't think its like Tolkien eather, Tolkien's books are more poetic, he writes beautiful things, Jordan doesn't.
Which is exactly why Tolkien is the better writer. What I'm saying is, RJ tried to incorporate some of Tolkien's style (especially mentioning facts about non-relevant characters) but without much success. Tolkien does it like no other IMO.
I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote
Wait till you reach book 6!!

[flupke]

This is the part where I wonder, is it still worth reading:)

[Wayfarer]

That's just the point. Their politics are so screwed up, none of it makes sence.

I think if I were to list RJ's major failings in the Wheel of Time, I would say that:

He writes about politics, while not knowing the first thing about how politics work.
He writes about (fictional) history, while not having a clear grasp on the principles that underlie it.
He writes about Evil Overlords, but doesn't seem to comprehend what being Evil actually implies.
He writes about women in a way that causes me to suspect he's had few (or poor) experiences with real females (to be honest, he can come across as quite mysoginistic).
He writes about Fate and Destiny and all this herioc claptrap, but even he doesn't have any idea how it's supposed to play out in the end.
And the same could be said for a number of other subjects - I'll spare you the details.

As a writer, Jordan's reach exceeds his grasp. He throws in everything 'cool' that he can possibly think of, mashes it together (not in the good way), and churns out one novel after another without any particular purpose but killing trees and raking in cash.

He suffers from what I suppose you could call hollywoodism - the novel (the published medium) begins to supercede the story (the Art if you will) of the book. It's mass-production in entertainment - clumps rather than a single finely-crafted masterpiece.

[flupke]

I couldn't have said it better myself;)
But please don't spare methe details.

The only thing you forgot to mention is that he took to many ideas from other books or tales. (you can relate olmost anything to another book or tales) in particular the names are all from the tale of king artur.

[Lief Erikson]

I just started book 4 and I heard that after that, there is nothing but politics that he wrote :(
I still enjoyed them quite a lot after book 4, flupke.
He writes about politics, while not knowing the first thing about how politics work.
He writes about (fictional) history, while not having a clear grasp on the principles that underlie it.
He writes about Evil Overlords, but doesn't seem to comprehend what being Evil actually implies.
Would you expound on these three points, providing examples and further explanation? I didn't have much trouble with the politics or history in his world, but perhaps you're more enlightened than I am, or perhaps I haven't thought about it so much. The main difficulty I can see with the evil is that most of the evil characters have no personality.
He writes about women in a way that causes me to suspect he's had few (or poor) experiences with real females (to be honest, he can come across as quite mysoginistic).
He writes about Fate and Destiny and all this herioc claptrap, but even he doesn't have any idea how it's supposed to play out in the end.
I certainly hope you're wrong about his not knowing how it's going to play out in the end! :eek:

As regards your point about women in WoT, I must confess, sometimes I have wondered the same thing about Robert Jordan's personal life. I think you're right on as regards them.

[Grey_Wolf]

Could the eleventh part, Knife of dreams, be the final one or is there a twelth and final one in the works.

[brownjenkins]

i'm betting at least 13 at least... plus, that title doen't sound grand enough for a final book

[brownjenkins]

it does sound like he might dive into the whole finnland-morraine-lanfear thing with that title though... maybe worth reading ;)

[Lief Erikson]

Here's an interesting link regarding the book. It's essentially what would be written on the cover jacket.
http://www.sevenspokes.com/books/v11-kod.html

I doubt that much will be resolved in this book, though it's beginning to become more clear how events in the series are likely to turn out. I think Egwene might be able to turn this kidnap by the White Tower to her own advantage. It is a nasty situation she's in though, considering the kind of people she's dealing with.



Here's an excerpt from "Knife of Dreams":
http://www.knifeofdreams.com/excerpt.php

[Beren3000]

I'm currently more than halfway into Crossroads of Twilight and I can't see why people are bashing it so hard :confused: I know the action is slow, but it has been this way for the past 3 books or so...

[Lief Erikson]

I'm glad you have that experience :). I cruised through that book very swiftly, in spite of its being slower. People who bash that book tend to bash a very large number of Robert Jordan's books. I agree with some of the complaints- the characters are very similar to one another, the women are insane, and the books are pretty slow. I still enjoy the books, though :).

Robert Jordan says that the book he released just before "Knife of Dreams" is more of a "lull before the storm." "Knife of Dreams" is supposed to be full of action scenes.

[Beren3000]

Robert Jordan says that the book he released just before "Knife of Dreams" is more of a "lull before the storm." "Knife of Dreams" is supposed to be full of action scenes.
I recall reading something along these lines and thinking: he probably did some last minute changes on the plot after all the ranting he's had about book 10 :rolleyes:

[brownjenkins]

I know the action is slow, but it has been this way for the past 3 books or so...

that's the point :p

close to zero plot advancement... one book i can understand, but three? in comparison to the first six, i think he's been slacking quite a bit... i enjoy his stuff, i just think he probably could have easily condensed the last three books into one or two and lost a lot of the irrelavant and repetative stuff

[Lief Erikson]

Yeah, I think we're all agreed on that point.

[Lenya]

Yeah. I heard he intends to make 12 books, but now you guys are making me worry. He will almost certainly write more volumes that he is planning for and I don't know if I will be in the mood to read much more of his work. But I'll have to, can't stop in the middle of a series.

[Lief Erikson]

:) Well, I heard on one "Wheel of Time" site that he is planning to keep it down to two more books, the "Knife of Dreams" and its sequel. I heard on that site that he was planning to keep it to that many books, even if the last one had to be 1,500 pages. Perhaps that's true.

[Beren3000]

I just finished Crossroads of Twilight today (and picked up New Spring) I have to say, despite all the stuff I've heard about CoT, the ending really took me by surpise, so I'm voting for this book as a good one!
New Spring looks promising as well :)

[Tessar]

Bleh. I didn't really like New Spring. Everyone was obsessed with sex and how great they were in bed--I mean not that I'm saying that isn't realistic for people to be obsessed with that, but it gets boring it read it over, and over, and over, and over. :rolleyes:

That and the characters just felt really, really weak to me in NS.


Ahhhhh well. The Aes Sedai test was pretty neat, although I wouldn't class it as 'OMGTEHBBQ!' good :p

[Lief Erikson]

My main difficulty with "New Spring" was keeping track of the characters. So many names . . .

There was an exciting climax :). Robert Jordan always has been very skilled with his action scenes. I liked seeing Lan again, too.

[Lenya]

:) Well, I heard on one "Wheel of Time" site that he is planning to keep it down to two more books, the "Knife of Dreams" and its sequel. I heard on that site that he was planning to keep it to that many books, even if the last one had to be 1,500 pages. Perhaps that's true.

Nooo!

Beren3000, I'm glad you finally finished it :) I didn't like it so much. I still hold that book 9 was the best one so far. As for New Springs, I have decided not to read it. Too much other stuff to read for me to stick with one writer. The only reason why I considered it for a while is because Lan is in it :cool:

[Beren3000]

Beren3000, I'm glad you finally finished it I didn't like it so much. I still hold that book 9 was the best one so far. As for New Springs, I have decided not to read it. Too much other stuff to read for me to stick with one writer. The only reason why I considered it for a while is because Lan is in it
Well, guess what... I just finished New Spring and it's worth it. Two words: read it!! :)

[Lenya]

Not convinced yet.

[Beren3000]

*Hypnosis voice* Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaad iiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttt.........reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaa aaaaaad itttttttttttttt!

*Normal voice* Convinced yet? :D

Now seriously, it's a good book. It has something of the feel of the "older ones", especially the initial naivety that characterized Eye of the World it also features Lan and a neat description of the Aes Sedai test...
Hope that's enough.

[Pytt]

I'm going, at last, to take up WoT again. I haven't read since february, but I read the first volume of George R R Martin's Song of Ice And Fire. Which was a very good fantasy, but I got a stronger urge to read further in WoT than Song Of Ice And Fire. So I am borrowing the 8th book tomorrow.

[Beren3000]

I started on The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It's very interesting; if only Tolkien had written a book like that....

[Lief Erikson]

I enjoyed that book a lot. I didn't read all the material on the various existing nations of the world, but the available history I sunk my teeth into with relish :D. I also really enjoyed all the material on the Forsaken. The Age of Legends, Artur Hawkwing and Amalsan, all of that was fascinating :).

[Beren3000]

Yeah, I've just finished the stuff on the Forsaken and it's really good. I wonder why RJ chose to talk about the "technology" of the Age of Legends outright when he only referred to it in hints in the other books...

[Lief Erikson]

Yeah, I've just finished the stuff on the Forsaken and it's really good. I wonder why RJ chose to talk about the "technology" of the Age of Legends outright when he only referred to it in hints in the other books...
That is weird, for he does try in that book to give only "what is known."

[Lief Erikson]

I've decided that I like Verin. It's rare for me to actually like a character in "The Wheel of Time," though I'm fond of Rand, but I like Verin. She's not power-hungry. She doesn't get all upset and annoyed at other people, doesn't needle and jab them. She does her best to do what's right, and she's kind of out-of-it. She's kind of absent, and kind of nice. Loial also is nice, but he's not a character that's very involved in events.

[brownjenkins]

i like verin too... though there seems to be some under-wraps stuff going on with her that might change my opinion if we ever find out

[Tessar]

It took you guys this long?!!?! O_o

I liked Verin from the very first chapter she was in... :D

Verin is my new Moraine ^_^

[Daisy Baggins]

I like Verin too. I've started rereading the series, and I'm on book three. I find it makes a lot more sense the second time around. He mentions all kinds of details about the characters and the story which you only know are important if you've read the books.

[Pytt]

Wow. Just finished Knife of Dreams. And something is at last happening! A endless flow of information and breaking news, atleast in the prolouge and the 5 firsh chapters. Have anyone else read it?

[Lief Erikson]

Is the full book released yet? Or were you reading that early-release prologue book?

[Pytt]

The full book was released the 11. this month. So I think you'll find it :)

[Lief Erikson]

The full book was released the 11. this month. So I think you'll find it :)
Goodie :). How long is it?

[Pytt]

It's 760 pages. Almost exactly.

[Lief Erikson]

It's 760 pages. Almost exactly.
Good :).

[Daisy Baggins]

I've just started reading it. Being impatient and unable to wait, I've checked spoilers on others sites. Things finally do happen in this book, so I definitely think it will be worth reading. I got my copy on Amazon.

[Lief Erikson]

I guess I should probably vacate this thread until I get that book read myself :D. I'm very interested in getting started.

[Pytt]

Yeah. Maybe you should Lief. Though, I won't have long discussions by myself, and it appears no one else has read it so..

[brownjenkins]

I've just started reading it. Being impatient and unable to wait, I've checked spoilers on others sites. Things finally do happen in this book, so I definitely think it will be worth reading. I got my copy on Amazon.

i really didn't like the lack of progression in the last book, so have been debating whether to buy this one... i'm interested to hear what you think when done :)

[Pytt]

I've read it BJ. You defintley(wrong spelling? always stumble on that word...) should buy it, beacuse the progression is -huge- compared to the 2-3 previous books. Also, you find out some pretty interesting stuff, specialy one thing, which alot of people have thought about I think. And it's after all the only one more book after this one. I think maybe but don't quite it's one of the best WoT books I've read. Honestly

[Lenya]

*Hypnosis voice* Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaad iiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttt.........reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaa aaaaaad itttttttttttttt!

*Normal voice* Convinced yet? :D

Now seriously, it's a good book. It has something of the feel of the "older ones", especially the initial naivety that characterized Eye of the World it also features Lan and a neat description of the Aes Sedai test...
Hope that's enough.

Still not convinced y... mmmmmm. Aes Sedai test you say? Maybe... Meditate on this I must.

[Lenya]

Wow. Just finished Knife of Dreams. And something is at last happening! A endless flow of information and breaking news, atleast in the prolouge and the 5 firsh chapters. Have anyone else read it?

It's out?! How can I not know of this :confused:
Wow, I'd never have thought that he finaly finished it yet.

[brownjenkins]

I've read it BJ. You defintley(wrong spelling? always stumble on that word...) should buy it, beacuse the progression is -huge- compared to the 2-3 previous books. Also, you find out some pretty interesting stuff, specialy one thing, which alot of people have thought about I think. And it's after all the only one more book after this one. I think maybe but don't quite it's one of the best WoT books I've read. Honestly

i shall trust your review pytt and check it out :)

and hold you personally responsible if wrong :evil: ;)

[Daisy Baggins]

I've finally finished the Knife of Dreams. Jordan starts to tie up loose ends, and a lot of stuff finally happens in the book. I still don't see how he can complete the series with just one more book. He'll have to leave a lot of things unresolved if he does.

[Pytt]

Or, the last book has to be extremely big. I'm looking forward to it.

[bropous]

I'm currently reading "Fires of Heaven".

I'm really getting into this series. I thought the first book took a bit too long to really get going, but by the second book, I was hooked.

Someone recommended this series to me as "a world more detailed than Tolkien", but I certainly don't see that aspect. It is a lot less "prose-y" than Prof T, but still quite enjoyable, and the characters are growing on me, starting to care what really happens to them.

Nynayeve is starting to get less on my nerves as she deals with Madame M. However, I kept waiting for someone to simply bust her in her chops for being such a B.

Rand was kind of getting on my nerves too with the "reluctant hero" bit, plus, he was a tad too chaste for my leanings.

For some reason, Moiraine didn't get on my last nerve like Little Ms Wisdom, but maybe I just assumed she had more cause to be strict and aloof.

I'm looking forward to the rest fo the books, and am thoroughly enjoying the convolutions of the story as it evolves.

As for earlier discussions re: Christ figure and the Church as Aes Sedai, I saw the AS more like a reflection of Bene Gesserit than Jesuits. Christ figure? I guess any hero/savior could be forced into that mold, but then again, the original Christ story was forced into the Hercules/Ahura Mazda/pagan hero mold as it developed. I jsut think it is common themes in human desires, not necessarily a desire by Jordan to fit Rand into a Jesus mold.

Anyways, glad to see the Entmoot still up and going. Ben, hope you and your brothers are doing great!

[Curubethion]

Ok, I'm halfway through Eye of the World (read all of that last night! :eek: )
and I am HOOKED! Robert Jordan does an awesome job of dropping little clues here and there...I've already figured out who the Dragon is...Basically, this series is great.

[Beren3000]

Just started on Knife of Dreams a couple of days ago. Looks promising!

[Curubethion]

I heard it had a HUGE plot twist in it, one that Jordan's been building up into for a long time.
Ah, well...I just finished Eye, and it was good! Great climax, good ending to get ready for the next book. I already guessed that thing about Rand a while back.

[Acalewia]

I'm half way through Eye of the World. This stuff is great! A co worker recomnded it. I'm hooked. The characters are great. So far I'm really liking Lan. I think I've guessed about Rand. We'll see. BTW what comes after Eye?

[Curubethion]

The Great Hunt, which I'm about a third of the way through right now...
It confirms my guess, not surprisingly. Also, it makes things a whole lot more complicated. Third in the series is The Dragon Reborn.

[Acalewia]

Thanks Curub. It might take me a while to get through the whole series though

[Grey_Wolf]

I haven't begun reading them yet. Still do not know if I'll buy the 11th part (if it's gonna be anything like Shannara it can go on forever. :) )

[Curubethion]

Finished Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn...Hunt had an AWESOME climax!!! The ending duel was beautiful. Dragon, on the other hand, well-the climax was better than the first book, but still lacked quite a bit. Can't wait to start on book 4!

[Beren3000]

if it's gonna be anything like Shannara it can go on forever.
Fortuntely, it's not! Jordan promised that the 12th book is going to be the last.

Finished Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn...Hunt had an AWESOME climax!!! The ending duel was beautiful. Dragon, on the other hand, well-the climax was better than the first book, but still lacked quite a bit. Can't wait to start on book 4!
Wow you're quick! You're gonna like book 4, love book 5 and adore book 6. Enjoy! :)

[Grey_Wolf]

Thank the Lord :D . I've been waiting a long time to be able to read the lot. Wanting it to be complete before doing so. :)

[Elemmírë]

This new one was way better than the last, I think. :) I almost laughed when I heard ahead of time what happened to Rand. That seems to happen to all my favourite characters. :D

...Even though he's technically not my favourite. That would be the less psychotic of the False Dragons. :p

Fortuntely, it's not! Jordan promised that the 12th book is going to be the last.

You mean the next one's going to be the last...?

How...?

Maybe it'll be 5000 pages. :D

[Curubethion]

ARGGHH!!!! MUST...GET...TO...LIBRARY...DON'T...HAVE...4TH...B OOK... :eek:
;) :D

[Acalewia]

Stupid Library doesn't have Great Hunt. Hmmmm wonder if the coworker who recommended it has it

Dang, Curub! Either you read fast or you have a lot of free time.

[Curubethion]

:D That would be both. I stayed up until midnight to finish Dragon Reborn. I'll have to get to the library for book 4.
And if anyone's interested, I found a really funny summary (http://www.rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.reborn.shtml) of Dragon.

[Beren3000]

Just finished reading Book11 and it was amazing! But there's something I don't get. RJ said that this book will reveal that something done earlier in the series will have terrible consequences; what is that? I didn't find anything of the sort in the book :confused:

[Curubethion]

Well...I'll have to see when I get to it (midway through Shadow Rising...) but my friend told me that there was a major plot development that RJ had been hinting at through much of the series (including the first books) that happened in this book.

[Pytt]

Just finished reading Book11 and it was amazing! But there's something I don't get. RJ said that this book will reveal that something done earlier in the series will have terrible consequences; what is that? I didn't find anything of the sort in the book :confused:

Hm. I didn't know he said that. But there's alot of small things and twists in this books, as you surely know. My friend reads alot from wotmania.com, and he tells me some of the ideas and speculations. And there's this tiny thing from book 2, which can be linked to Knife of Dreams, which don't interests you at all when you read it.

And book 12 must be HUGE. With all the stuff which has to happen before Tarmon Gaidon can start, then the battle, and the finish... He might chop it up in parts..

[Curubethion]

Midway through Fires of Heaven...liking it so far...although that scene with Aviendha somewhat put me off a little...I guess even the Car'Caran has weaknesses.

[Acalewia]

Three quarters through Hunt. Libary had it afterall. I can't seem to put the book down, which results in me being late to work half the time :p Rand seems to keep getting himself into quite some predictements, doesn't he.

[Curubethion]

Oh, just you wait. :D
The end of Hunt is very awesome...tons better than Eye.
Here's a philosophical question for everyone to ponder...if two people hit each other with balefire at the same time, what would happen? Would they both be unaffected, or would they both be destroyed?

[Acalewia]

*Ponders* Depends of who was the quickest or more powerful :D

[Curubethion]

Realists. Grr. :p
LONG LIVE THEORETICAL PHILOSOPHY! :p
I asked my friend (who is a WOT maniac) about this, and he was of the opinion that they would never have fired when all was said and done. Which is wierd to think about...I still am not sure myself about it.
Another philosophical question...what would happen if you shot yourself with balefire?
(As you can tell, I have a small obsession with balefire... :D But it's so cool!)
BTW...finished Fires of Heaven, nice battle at the end (RAAAHVIN!!!) and I'm at about chapter ten of Lord of Chaos. (What is it with Aes Sedai bonding people as warders, anyway?)

[bropous]

Finished the "winter" book (whatever the title was) and the crossraods of twilight, and you know what? Jordan can KEEP his series. I won;t even be picking up Knife of Dreams.

What a LOAD of crap! Guy rambles on for forty pages on some side-thread of the story, and then devotes three or four pages to the climax of his books.

Folks, this must be a parallax to the "commercial sell-out" theory of why most rock bands start out with a great first one or two albums, then start to produce totally crapped-out mediocrity.

TOR's editors must be pretty dim. This entire series could have been compressed into maybe four books, but hey, get the public hooked on release after release and it's BIG BUCKS.

Well, I ain't buying the hardback version of KoD, and frankly, I'd like my eight-bucks-a-pop back for the other ten books I bought (eighty bucks plus tax plus gas to get to the bleeding store), and would even ask for my wasted time back, but, hey, that's Life.

Jordan simply went to the well too many times, and his editors allowed him to ramble himself into pedanticy. After maybe book seven, the story became dull, dull, dull, and it became more of a chore to read than an enjoyment. I found myself skimming through scores of pages to get the ball rolling again.

This series strikes me, now, as a series of missed opportunities, and for those waiting for Tarmon Gaidon (or whatever), get ready for seven hundred pages of Rand whining, nine hundred pages of Elayne wingeing in succession, four hundred pages of Mat playing dice in his head and riding in a circus wagon, three hundred seventy two pages of Wolfboy waking through static camps telling everyone not to call him Lord, six hundred ninety nine pages of forty-seven different Aes Sedai wandering the halls of Tar Valon suspecting each other, fifty-six pages of Brigitte changing her clothes, three hundred fifty nine pages of the Waveriders getting all pissed off, and another interminable fifteen hundred eight eight pages of Rand running from responsibility and generally acting like a reluctant schoolboy before showing up, thirty-seven books later, for a two and a half page standoff with the Dark Lord beyond The Blight, where he will predictably be destroyed when the Dark Lord appears in a dress and bad makeup acreeching about PMS and uncaring men.

Jordan? Overrated. His books? Overpriced, overwritten, and for me, simply OVER.

[Elemmírë]

Oh, just you wait. :D
The end of Hunt is very awesome...tons better than Eye.
Here's a philosophical question for everyone to ponder...if two people hit each other with balefire at the same time, what would happen? Would they both be unaffected, or would they both be destroyed?

Oooh. Interesting. As soon as you get hit, the fact that you just sent out your own balefile would be negated, so it would be as if it had never happened.

I'm guessing this is how the serious tearing of the world might happen.

Another philosophical question...what would happen if you shot yourself with balefire?

You'd be bloody stupid and deserve whatever happens to you. :)

Though, that would probably be nothing. :D

[Curubethion]

True, but then wouldn't the balefire be negated, so that it wouldn't burn those threads out of the pattern? Which would mean that both balefires got fired anyway, which would in turn negate both, which would...
Does that make any sense? :p

[Acalewia]

You just confussed me :p
I started Dragon Reborn. I do wish Rand would drop the "i'm just a shepard from the Two Rivers" stance. Its more like "I'm a shepard who just happened to be born on Dragonmount and will end up breaking the world.... Again" :p j/k.
The Horn was pretty cool i think. This makes me want to slap the Whitecloaks for being soooo stupid and thinking "our way is the only way and if you don't agree then your a Darkfriend and we'll hand you over to the Questioners to get a confession so you can walk in the Light once more"
I'm glad Jorden revealed who "Bors" is and I think Ive guessed at least one Black Ajah. Curub, don't spoil it for if you can resist :D
I know who Ordeth is :evil:

[Curubethion]

I think the Hunt has by far one of the most awesome battles ever. Dragon Reborn, I think you'll like, although its battle isn't as exciting. Very important, though...
Lord of Chaos was very good! I loved Dumai's Wells...
In addition, I'm working on a summary...
Going going going going Shadar Logoth going going going going Whitecloaks going going going Tar Valon politics politics politics politics balefire politics Callandor politics politics politics Aiel politics politics politics I hate wolves politics politics Crossroads of Twilight....umm...umm... politics politics Tarmon Gai'don politics balefire...oh wait, it's over...dang.
It's really funny if you read it out loud.

[Acalewia]

roflmao! :D Ow! I hit the chair!

[Acalewia]

Check this out
Which Wheel of Time Character are You? (quizilla.com/users/Foxgirl/quizzes/which%20Wheel%20of%20Time%20character%20are%20are% 20you%3F)
I got:


You are Rand al'Thor, the most powerful man in the world. 'Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain'. You are the prophesied Dragon Reborn, fated to battle the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don before going mad from the taint of channeling saidin and breaking the world once more. Fortunately, or unfortunately, there are three women in love with you, and you get them all.

Funny I think. I retook it playing around with unsure answers and I also got Lan.

[Curubethion]

Hey, sweet. I got Lan too!
There's a better one, though...
http://www.wotmania.com/personalitytest.asp
On that one, I got Logain, and they said Birgitte would be my ideal date. Who knew?

[Falagar]

Important note from Jordan:
http://www.tor.com/jordan/

[Pytt]

Important note from Jordan:
http://www.tor.com/jordan/

I heard that from a friend, some days ago. As long as he writes "A Memory of Light", it's okay :p

[Curubethion]

Oh yeah, I heard that on another forum! Wow...
It would be interesting if it "Memory of Light" was literally the last thing he wrote. Even morbidly funny...

[Acalewia]

That test Curub posted said I was most like Birgitte. and my perfect match is Elyas. Funny that my perfect match is a Wolfbrother :D

[Daisy Baggins]

It's really sad about Robert Jordan having a serious disease. I hope they find some way to help him. At least, he seems upbeat about everything.

[bropous]

Although I've been sorely disappointed with the later books in his Wheel of Time series, it certainly saddens me to learn that Mr. Jordan is suffering from this blood-borne disease. I surely wish him well, and good luck in his fight to cling to this mortal coil. Life is a fragile thing, even though this tenuous fragility may be missed by many of those with few years under their belt.

Remember well: Live every day like it is your last.

[Acalewia]

Or as Tim McGraw says: "Live like you were dying"

That is terrible that he has a rare blood disease. He has achieved immotality with the Wheel of Time Series. I found the prequel at the libary the other day and now i can't remember the name of the book. It was something about spring. It takes place 20 years before Eye of the World.

[Curubethion]

That would be New Spring (Wow...I've memorized the names of all of his books-I even know that he wrote the Fallon Blood trilogy, which is a modern war trilogy...)
I haven't read it yet. I probably will, once I'm done with KoD.

[Acalewia]

wow Curub! What are you, a walking Library!? :D

[Curubethion]

Mmm...just about. :cool: :D
Actually, I just decided to memorize the names of the books, because they were on the back of all the softcover books, and I thought it might be cool to know all the titles. Memorizing the title New Spring was a logical leap, and then I noticed the Fallon books-although I've never read either of those.

[Acalewia]

A friend of mine who hasn't read WoT was telling me about New Spring. She's read it as thought it was good.

[Daisy Baggins]

I've read the New Spring. It's of interest as background information for the rest of the series. I'm surprised that someone who hasn't read the Wheel of Time books would like it. In my opinion, a lot of it doesn't really make sense unless you've read some of the books.

[Acalewia]

I started Shadow Rising thursday
I think I now know why Curub has an obsession with balefire. That's one powerful "weapon"

[Curubethion]

You betcha! What did you think of the opening battle?

Yay! I'm finally starting Crown of Swords! And what a sequence of events...I'm not even out of the prologue, and something's already happened!

[b.banner]

i'm on Shadow Rising i like the series alot so far

[Curubethion]

Balefire! Balefire! Balefire! Balefire! (ad infinitum :D )

Can you tell I just finished Crown of Swords? The last duel was awesome...especially with Rand and the old guy in SL...

Balefire! Balefire! Balefire!... :D

[Acalewia]

lol. I am sooooo glad you can't channel, Curub.
Has anyone, Male and female, ever wished you could channel?

[Pytt]

Lots of times. Man, that would be so awesome! Especially gateways, so I can stop biking to school. And I mean, no one would ever try to crap me, if I could throw them around for 30 minutes, upside down!

[Acalewia]

I have wished several times that I could use Air on a certian coworker to keep her in her area.

[Curubethion]

lol. I am sooooo glad you can't channel, Curub.
Are you sure about that? :p ;)

It would be cool if I could actually do that. Ahh, if I could weave a gateway, I'd never ever need to buy an airplane ticket! Just get someone to take lots and lots of pictures of one certain spot overseas...or I could Skim.

And then that stuff in the beginning of Shadow Rising-sweet!

(Update: I made a record-I finished Path of Daggers in two days!)

[Acalewia]

Are you sure about that? :p ;)

:eek: :eek: :eek:

(Update: I made a record-I finished Path of Daggers in two days!)

:eek: That is a record! Do you speed read!?

[b.banner]

i am now reading Fires of Heaven.i Read The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn in one week!shadow rising was excellent! :D

[Curubethion]

:eek: That is a record! Do you speed read!?
You've never heard of saidin-enhanced speedreading? :p :D
No, I just spend insane amounts of solid time just reading. My friend supplied me with Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight. I want to read them both before Monday. Then I can be all set to read Knife of Dreams!!!

[Pytt]

Path of Daggers... There you have the most boring, and idiotic book in the whole series. I was so Frustrated at the end, when Rand screw it up like that. I can't even remember something else than Rand wanting to get Callandor so he could kick some Seanchan ass, but noooo, he goes killing his own army. And the book was 800 pages or something...

Thats a nice achivement though :p

[Acalewia]

*shakes head*
I can only read about 1 hour a day. Which is why its taking so long for me to read them. Work sucks.

[Curubethion]

Path of Daggers... There you have the most boring, and idiotic book in the whole series. I was so Frustrated at the end, when Rand screw it up like that. I can't even remember something else than Rand wanting to get Callandor so he could kick some Seanchan ass, but noooo, he goes killing his own army. And the book was 800 pages or something...

Thats a nice achivement though :p
Agreed. (Psst, don't be a spoiler! :p ) However, I think that was an intended effect. Robert Jordan was framing war not as a glorious happening, but as a nasty job and a horror. Dumai's Wells was a prime example.
As for the part with Callandor, it just goes to show how Rand is limited sometimes, and how his actions had bad consequences. It may have been disappointing to you, but it was a big blow to Rand as well.

[b.banner]

can't find Lord Of Chaos! :(

[Curubethion]

*tries to open a gateway to b.banner, to give him Lord of Chaos, then remembers that he borrowed the book from a friend. Oh well.*

Man, that's one of the best books! Although Crown of Swords ranks right up there too!

I just finished Winter's Heart. Needless to say, the climax was AWESOME!!! I'll do a little spoiler below...I just can't hold it in! DO NOT READ IT UNLESS YOU HAVE READ WINTER'S HEART.
I can't believe it!! Rand actually cleansed saidin! I mean, I was accepting that as a natural part of the WoT universe, and now it's toast! Poor Reds-I think Rand just put them all out of a job! :D
But man, what a book! What a plot twist! What a scene!!
I'm still trying to figure out, though, why the female access key got melted but the male key didn't.

[Acalewia]

*embraces saidar to enhance her reading.*
Curub, were you talking about the "battles" Perrin, Mat and Rand had or the acual first battle?

[Curubethion]

Referring to them when I said...? :confused:

[Acalewia]

When you said

You betcha! What did you think of the opening battle[of Shadow Rising]?

[Curubethion]

Yeah...I realized that just as I was going to bed. :D
I was referring to the battle in the Stone of Tear, with all the Trollocs and the saidin lightning storm...awesome stuff. I wasn't talking about the bubbles of evil.

Aaaand, for your reading pleasure, the Top 10 plot twists you'll find in A Memory of Light (some spoilers)...I've put numbers 7 and 8 in spoiler tags, because they come somewhat late in the series. All the rest basically involve events in the early books, or else you won't get them at all.

10. The Whitecloaks were right all along.
9. There wasn't actually a taint on saidin to begin with.
8. Birgitte and Moghedien got switched with each other.
7. Tylin was actually Lanfear reborn.
6. Mat is the Dragon Reborn.
5. Berelain is actually one of the three women in Min's viewing of Rand.
4. The Seanchan have the right Prophecies.
3. Rand's not really the Dragon Reborn.
2. Paidan Fain was actually framed as a villain.
1. Rand really did kill the Dark One back in Book 2, so there was no point in having the rest of the series!

[Acalewia]

*Wraps Curub in Air and ties off the threads* :evil:

*Scraches head.* You have got to making this up!

[Curubethion]

(gagged by Air) Mmfmblemff....!

[Acalewia]

(gagged by Air) Mmfmblemff....!
:D :evil:

I think I just figured out why there are three thread benders. (I know the word i just can't spell it :o ) One is Dragon Reborn, One is He Who Comes With the Dawn, and One is the Cormoor. This is just a guess. I'll find out if I'm right.

[Curubethion]

You mean ta'veren?
So you're guessing that Rand, Perrin, and Mat are, in some order, the Dragon Reborn, He Who Comes With the Dawn, and the Coramoor? :confused: Or is it something totally different?

[Acalewia]

You mean ta'veren?
Yeah, That :o
So you're guessing that Rand, Perrin, and Mat are, in some order, the Dragon Reborn, He Who Comes With the Dawn, and the Coramoor? :confused:

Its just a guess. Three Prophecies. Three Ta'veren.
:confused:

[Curubethion]

I just finished the infamous Crossroads of Twilight. It's not actually as bad as it's made out to be. As my friend told me, it's basically a setup for the next book. Keeping that in mind, the lack of a major climax or plot isn't really so bad.

[Acalewia]

Now which book is that in the series?

[Curubethion]

Book number 10. My friend's going to bring me book 11, and then I will have finished all of the book's RJ's written so far. Except for New Spring. I'm really grateful to my friend, actually. He's loaned me a copy of every single book, as I finished them.

[Acalewia]

Whoa! :eek:

[b.banner]

reading Lord Of Chaos.Fires Of Heaven was awsome!what is Gawyn's problem! :mad:

[hectorberlioz]

Whoa! :eek:

You should see my brother (b.banner) read em! He's in the middle of the Sixth, and nigh a 2 months worth of days hve passed... ;)

[Curubethion]

I think that the reviewer's blurb for DR called it a "year's read".

[b.banner]

almost done with Lord Of Chaos one chapter and half left! :D

[Curubethion]

The last chapter gets really fun!
The next book is one of the best, IMO. The Grey Man pops back up again in a very cool scene.
I finished New Spring in a day...it was interesting, but a little skimpy in my opinion. However, it was really cool to see all of the people years before WOT, like Siuan and Moiraine being Accepted!

[Acalewia]

I think I'm starting to see the Ta'veren in Perrin. I'm prob not going to read new spring until I'm through with the series. Unless I'm done with book 11 before Memory of Light comes out :)

[Curubethion]

Perrin is most definitely a ta'veren, although it shows in more subtle ways than in Rand and Mat. I love Mat's ta'veren ability.

You really don't want to read New Spring until you're well into the series, preferably past about Book 9 or so.

And...I've finally done it. Knife of Dreams. A fairly good book, not as good as Crown of Swords, but with some great setup action. And I loved the big battle with the Trollocs-yes, the Trollocs return! And Rand gets to do even better stuff this time!

[Curubethion]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/Curubethion/d8158e92.jpg
This is a little picture I did, inspired by everyone's favorite gambling ta'veren! Hope you like it!

[Acalewia]

Isn't that the Old Tounge? And what does it say?

[Curubethion]

Yup, that's the Old Tongue. It's Mat's favorite saying: "It's time to roll the dice."
I took special care to get all the pips right...RJ has a cool way of doing them.

[Acalewia]

That's cool

[Curubethion]

I also stuck some Mat symbols in there: the ruby-hilted dagger on top, and nine moons on the bottom. (The moons become very important later on)

[Acalewia]

I've been wondering why people keep say "Nine Moons" and "Mat" in the same sentence.

[Curubethion]

It's from a prophecy found in, I think, Fires of Heaven (I might be wrong...I always mix up those snakey people...Aelfinn and Eelfinn, I think...). It becomes a pretty important sub-plot.

[Acalewia]

I think I just figured out why there are three thread benders. (I know the word i just can't spell it :o ) One is Dragon Reborn, One is He Who Comes With the Dawn, and One is the Cormoor. This is just a guess. I'll find out if I'm right.
Scrach that! I know I'm wrong now :p