Should we pity orcs?

[Eärloth]

Maybe I'm just being soft here but I really feel sorry for orcs.

Everybody hates the orcs and the Uruk-hai, and really I don't think anyone could afford to spare one in battle, but I think they should have some credit for misfortune just in general:

If Morgoth had not originally taken the first Elves and tortured them, orcs wouldn't exist. All the orcs in the whole of Middle-earth had a chance of actually being an Elf that was destroyed before they were even born. As a result they are permanently unhappy, maliciousness is drilled into their hearts from their birth and there is always the threat that their peers will try and eat them, not to mention that they live on their own species' flesh.

Maybe it's just me. But just remember, they were given no other choice. What do other people think? And if a orc was taken as a child to be fostered by, say, Elves, what do you think it would turn out like?

[Sheeana]

Just a minor technicality, but orks were probably twisted from Men not Elves. But yeah, a small part of me feels sorry for them as well. They were just misunderstood!

[Jedi X]

No, it was elves.

To my notion, pity is one of the fundamental aspects of the true human spirit. It would only be the most cherishable expression of the human being to pity someone who had undergone such terrible factors in the development of who they are.

I believe in nurture over nature; and so, really, orcs are no different than someone that has suffered nothing but hatred and persecution at the hands of their 'fathers' (that being, those who provide the example of behavior). How could someone who is truly human not pity those who have suffered a life of misery at the hands of those who should otherwise have expressed that which is the prime teacher- namely, the actions of love.

Also, then, according to this paradigm; and orc who was raised by elves would be a kind hearted soul. To quote the bard, "Make no mistake I am what you make me."

Of course, the surest way to show true pity to an orc would be to fall upon him with the sword and end his miserable existence.

[Sheeana]

How can you view the 'human' condition in such a black and white fashion? The nature/nurture debate is old-hat, and seldom can anything be simplified like that.

Have you not read HoME where Tolkien revised his elves to orks theory, changing it to that of Men?

Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, VIII
_____It also seems clear...that though Melkor could corrupt and utterly ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable.
_____In that case, Elves, as a source, are very unlikely...
_____I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a rational soul...The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape...

[Sween]

I personally have a bit of pity on Orcs they are evil by nature but there was no natral evil before melkor marred it. But that was long ago in there past. i think you can see that Orcs without no real leader (no Melkor no Sauron) didnt really do too much they didnt try to rule the world they just kinda hung out in there mountians. They really were not so bad

[Sister Golden Hair]

Here is some interesting info on the Orcs. It will take a couple posts. Btw, Sheanna is correct. The Orcs were corrupted from Men, and this was Tolkien's final word on it.

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate. Some have called them the Melkorohíni, the Children of Melkor; but the wiser say: nay, the slaves of Melkor, but not his children; for Melkor had no children. Nonetheless, it was by the malice of Melkor that the Orcs arose, and plainly they were meant by him to be a mockery of the Children of Eru, being bred to be wholly subservient to his will and filled with unappeasable hatred of Elves and Men.
Now the Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor-Morgoth and his return to Middle-earth, were not 'spirits', nor phantoms, but living creatures, capable of speech and some crafts and organization; or at least capable of learning these things from higher creatures and from their Master. They bred and multiplied rapidly, whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Oromë to Cuiviénen.
Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assaults for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfer of their hosts westward.
This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aulë, only have succeeded in producing puppets: his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.
But the Orcs were not of this kind. They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds. They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if Morgoth and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands. They sometimes fought [> They hated one another and often fought] among themselves, to the detriment of Morgoth's plans.
Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after Morgoth was overthrown. They had other characteristics of the Incarnates also. They had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues according to differences of breed that were discernible among them. They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.

[Sister Golden Hair]

This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men. *
Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.
But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.
It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.
This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his com_mand.* And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction.
If is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavouring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the begin_ning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.
We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. .

[Sister Golden Hair]

In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.
When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid, in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all that dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves. It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned; and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.
But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript of this essay are some pages in manuscript for which my father used the blank reverse sides of papers provided by the publishers dated 10 November 1969. These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word orc, is given on p. 422; the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p. 417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'.

[Artanis]

Tolkien himself seemed to think the orcs were not entirely evil, though they would appear so.
Letter #269:

With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sons and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....

But no, I still can't bring myself to feel sorry for them.

[Wayfarer]

I think so, as I've said in at least one thread before now. Orcs. I'm with Sween on this- the orcs are corrupt and evil, but I pity them because they are corrupt. They are evil, and all good beings should wish that they were not.

[azalea]

I just want to mention that orcs did not live on each others' flesh.

(and yes, they are to be pitied).

[Attalus]

Gandalf said "As for me, I pity even his slaves." I agree with that, and the way the Elves said to deal with them.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Certainly they a pitiable: Corrupted, tortured and bred into a a debased race by and evil pittiless demi-god, denied all their brithright in the ways of spirituality and species gifts, condemed to perpetual warfare and contemptr, abandoned to this by the fearfullness and lack of initiave by the demi-god gaurdians tasked to protect and guide them.

Not deeds of war would be half so glorious to Eru, than would be bringing a measure of rehabilitation and redeptemtion to the Orks.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Here is some interesting info on the Orcs. It will take a couple posts. Btw, Sheanna is correct. The Orcs were corrupted from Men, and this was Tolkien's final word on it.

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

It wasn't necessarily Tolkien's final word - as I have said to you in the past. It is a note that Tolkien wrote - that we have no idea under what context. As for Christopher Tolkien stating it was his father's final word - we have no idea what he means by that. I doubt Tolkien wrote the note and then said "this is my final word" Christopher Tolkien most likely just said it based on the fact that he found no other notes after that date relating to where orcs came from.

Lord of the Rings is the ONLY book that Tolkien fully wrote. In there it says orcs came from elves. It makes much more sense that orcs would come from elves anyway. Melkor created the orcs to twist Iluvatar's creation. What better way of doing this than corrupting Iluvatar's prized creation - the elves? There weren't evil elves either - however there were evil men. Much more of an accomplishment and diabolical to twist something that is "pure" good to evil. Men fought on the side of evil freely - elves did not.

Also - as I said SGH - if men were not around at the time orcs came into being - then the whole history of Middle Earth needs to be rewritten to fit this change.

I consider Lord of the Rings as TOLKIEN'S final word - unless it is something that is not spelt out in there. For this reason - I will say that orcs came from elves as Tolkien stated.

I also question his possible mental capacity if he wrote the note concerning the orcs, elves and men only a couple of years before his death.

Also - Sheeana - as for Tolkien stating that orcs came from men in your quote - he doesn't. He says...

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape.

It does not say they were human - only of humanized shape. He also just states that he questions whether Melkor would have the power to corrupt an entire race or a group.

My feeling is - just because something is in the HoMe - doesn't mean it's correct. It's a note - that may or may not have been wrongly interpreted by Christopher Tolkien.

[Bombadillo]

I've never actually felt pity for the orcs, although I have been aware of their origins and existence. Now that it's pointed out to me, I suppose they do deserve pity. I feel sorry for them.

However, no matter how sad a thought, they are beyond the point of no return. I think the right thing to do would be to kill as many as possible. They'd be mercy killings, and you'd rid the world of their evil.

[Jedi X]

How can you view the 'human' condition in such a black and white fashion? The nature/nurture debate is old-hat, and seldom can anything be simplified like that.

Is that supposed to be a trick question? While I certainly could address the query with a mere retort of, "How can you not?", that certainly would not be philosophically gratifying.

Therefore, I will presently engage in a critical evaluation of the aspects of the nature of the human condition; its myriad forms and functions and existential qualities and by what measure these things may be said to founded upon.

Now, one can hardly begin such an evaluation without noting the philosophizing of that alleged father, Thales, who, when asked by one of his padawans concerning said human condition, replied quite thoughtfully, "I hardly can imagine what [The following portions of this post have been deleted, as the poster begins an overly-lengthy discourse on human nature, replete with multiple pseudo-intellectual presuppositions, ad-hoc constructions, oversimplifications, slippery slopes, hasty generalizations, arguments from ignorance and one or two tu quoque personal attacks which all culminate in a highly questionable non-sequitar conclusion- ED.]

Indeed, it by this very logic that one not only CAN see it "that way", but why one MUST see it that way.

Comments?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, JD, for the sake of argument, we can say that CT at least says, that this is his father's final word as it may appear.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It wasn't necessarily Tolkien's final word - as I have said to you in the past.

A few points:

As far as I know the source in which orcs were twisted from elves comes from the Silmarillion, right? (Maybe LOTR as well, but I can't recall it at the moment.) Either way, the Silmarillion has many 'canonical' problems with it, not least the one dealing with orc origins.

Secondly, a brief perusal of Morgoth's Ring turned up this quote: "change this, orcs are not elvish" with reference to the Silmarillion entry.

More Tolkien quotes:

"Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning."

"They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

Since it seems that Tolkien himself couldn't make up his mind towards the end of his life (when Morgoth's Ring was written), I am not completely happy with writing off an Elven origin, but all evidence seems to suggest a Mannish one.

Edit: Looks like you bet me, admin. Btw: I think I've decided to give up on the LOTR histories, they're damned boring! Can't wait to move onto MR to give it a bit more attention!

[Eärloth]

Gandalf said "As for me, I pity even his slaves."

I am familiar with that - and I might point out that many, if not most people pity Sméagol when Gandalf pointed out that such should be carried out - but Gandalf also said of Sméagol/Gollum that he would regain no happiness or benevolence before his death, however long he had to live, and that Sméagol/Gollum deserved death. This can also be said of the orcs, their evil is just more...'drastic', if you will.

[Sween]

i think the best way of summing up if we should feel sorry for the Orcs is compare them to men. The Easterlings had many wars with Gondor till the comming of Sauron again the Orcs had none!

This to me means Orcs by there own will did not want to dominate others there only indiduals wars came from the slaying of cheiftains or a drwaf staying into there rhelm then killing him