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Old 01-16-2003, 06:16 PM   #1
Eärniel
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The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

First of all: sorry to have kept you all waiting. I remembered the wrong posting date until SGH kindly reminded me.

Quote:
But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou has made it, so shall it be. […]’
(1) Ilúvatar gave the Dwarves ‘a place’. Would this signify that the Dwarves were not originally foreseen in the Song that the Ainur sung before Ilúvatar’s throne and are therefore not bound by the music? Or would they indeed be part of it since Ilúvatar gave them a place?

(2) On a more pleasant note: Aulë made only the Seven Fathers of the dwarves. How did they find the necessary Seven Mothers to start the race?


Quote:
Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.
(3) It seems odd for Elves to hold such believes since they have knowledge of Valinor and the Valar. Would this be perhaps one of the first misunderstandings between Elves and Dwarves?


Quote:
[…]When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.
(4) On Yavanna’s wish the forests and trees would not be undefended against the Children. This I believe led to the existence of Ents. Yet their power seemed to be limited to the period when the Men are still young. Does this means that Ilúvatar already knew that the entwives would disappear so that the Ents in time would disappear too?


Quote:
That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.
(5)It is interesting that after Yavanna’s wish for the Ents was granted, Ilúvatar also gave life to the Eagles who would be in Middle-earth before even the Children, the Ents or Dwarves. Any ideas on why this is?


Quote:
‘Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.’ ‘Nonetheless they will have need of wood,” said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.
(6) Such an odd couple these two are. While they represent two aspects of the earth they seem so extremely different that it is hard for me to imagine they stay together. They don’t even seem to mind that their children would fight when once awoken. What are your views on the relationship between Aulë and Yavanna?

I hope this will give enough fuel to start the discussion.
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Old 01-16-2003, 10:03 PM   #2
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Quote:
(1) Ilúvatar gave the Dwarves ‘a place’. Would this signify that the Dwarves were not originally foreseen in the Song that the Ainur sung before Ilúvatar’s throne and are therefore not bound by the music? Or would they indeed be part of it since Ilúvatar gave them a place?
I don't think that the Dwarves were foreseen in the music. After Aule created them, and Iluvatar gave them free will, I would say that they were incorperated into the music, and therefore had life. They probably had a place in Mandos at death.
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Old 01-17-2003, 03:27 AM   #3
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
(2) On a more pleasant note: Aulë made only the Seven Fathers of the dwarves. How did they find the necessary Seven Mothers to start the race?
Perhaps Aule just thought his creations were all dwarf men but some were actually dwarf women, who being so like dwarf men in voice and appearance he could not tell them apart??


Nice opening post Earniel - I hope to be back with something more useful to contribute!
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Old 01-17-2003, 03:47 AM   #4
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And Aule made the dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding. But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.
The latter part of this quote could imply that after he created the Seven Fathers, he created more. Also, I believe it is said that each of the Seven Fathers awoke among people of his kin (i.e. Broadbeams, Firebeards, etc.), save for Durin, who awoke alone on Mt. Gundabad. Source is unknown, so confirmation would be welcome.

Quote:
(6) Such an odd couple these two are. While they represent two aspects of the earth they seem so extremely different that it is hard for me to imagine they stay together. They don’t even seem to mind that their children would fight when once awoken. What are your views on the relationship between Aulë and Yavanna?
Opposites attract.
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Old 01-17-2003, 03:55 AM   #5
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Ents, Entwives and ?

It seems that the Ents and Entwives were spirits of quite different natures, and therefore likely that their estrangement would be foreshadowed in the Music. To answer this, we need to consider who these "spirits" were and where they came from. However, it does suggest that the Ents were more akin to Maiar than to Elves, say, and may have participated in the Music at the beginning of days.

Were there other spirits in addition to Ents?
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it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
When I read this, I thought "Beorn"; is Beorn an "ent" of the kelvar?

As for Aule and Yavanna, clearly this is the original case of opposites attracting.

There is so little information in LOTR and Sil about how Dwarves procreate that it's hard to tell how the Seven "Fathers" procreated. Does anyone have any info from HoME or other sources to add?

cheers

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Old 01-17-2003, 09:20 AM   #6
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
(6) Such an odd couple these two are. While they represent two aspects of the earth they seem so extremely different that it is hard for me to imagine they stay together. They don’t even seem to mind that their children would fight when once awoken. What are your views on the relationship between Aulë and Yavanna?
Although I believe that if Aule and Yavanna were not a couple they would have been bitter enemies I also believe it would have been a tradgedy if they were not a together. Aule needed Yavanna's calming influence as nature would have taken a lot more abuse from him (or more specifically the dwarves) if he didn't consider her influence. As for their children fighting although they both acknowledged that this was inevitable I imagine that they hoped ultimately for them to follow their example and be at peace with their differences.

They balanced each other perfectly or in simpler terms (as has already been said here) opposites attract.
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:18 PM   #7
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
(1) Ilúvatar gave the Dwarves ‘a place’. Would this signify that the Dwarves were not originally foreseen in the Song that the Ainur sung before Ilúvatar’s throne and are therefore not bound by the music? Or would they indeed be part of it since Ilúvatar gave them a place?
I agree with SGH, in that the dwarves were not foreseen in the music. However, when Ilúvatar gave them the gift of a free will, their history became wowen into the history that originated from the music.

Quote:
(3) It seems odd for Elves to hold such believes since they have knowledge of Valinor and the Valar. Would this be perhaps one of the first misunderstandings between Elves and Dwarves?
My overall impression of the Elves in Middle-Earth, especially those who had been in Valinor, is that they believed themselves to be of higher range and nobility than the other races. Together with Men they were created by Ilúvatar alone and were his children, and they far surpassed Men in skills, crafts and beauty. Still I agree it is strange that they should believe so of the dwarves, since they knew the history of how the dwarves came to be. The fact that Ilúvatar gave the dwarves independent life, implies clearly to me, and I think should also imply to them, that their bodies also are inhabited by spirits, which is summoned to Mandos after the death of their body. But perhaps the word 'aforetime' in your quote implies that they only believed so in the beginning, and that those of the Elves who befriended the Dwarves changed their view afterwards.
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:37 PM   #8
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Good point, Artanis! I hadn't noticed the 'afortime' yet.
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:40 PM   #9
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Re: Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

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Originally posted by Diamond of Long Cleeve
Perhaps Aule just thought his creations were all dwarf men but some were actually dwarf women, who being so like dwarf men in voice and appearance he could not tell them apart??


Nice opening post Earniel - I hope to be back with something more useful to contribute!
Somewhere-I don't remember where-it says that all the Dwarf fathers had partners, except Durin I. Of course then, how did he have children. Maybe another Dwarf father's daughter?
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:54 PM   #10
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Somewhere-I don't remember where-it says that all the Dwarf fathers had partners, except Durin I. Of course then, how did he have children. Maybe another Dwarf father's daughter?
I believe you're talking about HoME 11, "The War of the Jewels", ch: "Concerning the Dwarves"?
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Old 01-17-2003, 03:14 PM   #11
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I suspect that Yavanna was the sexiest female Vala.
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:14 PM   #12
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A little Aule-wannabe, are you, eh?
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:46 PM   #13
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Little?!?!

Back on Aule now. I have wondered how close he came to a rebbleion like Melkor's, or to joining Melkor, ast an early date, beofre there was much ill feeling between them. He came to that nexus of pride vs duty, and was ready to sacrifice his greatest creation to remain in Eru's service.

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Old 01-17-2003, 06:15 PM   #14
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.2 Of Aulë and Yavanna

Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
(4) On Yavanna’s wish the forests and trees would not be undefended against the Children. This I believe led to the existence of Ents. Yet their power seemed to be limited to the period when the Men are still young. Does this means that Ilúvatar already knew that the entwives would disappear so that the Ents in time would disappear too?
I think the Entwives disappeared and their gardens was destroyed by some evil means of Sauron, and that it was not particularly in Ilúvatar's mind. It was foreboded that the time of the Ents should end, but not by which means this would happen.

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Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Little?!?!
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Old 01-18-2003, 11:51 PM   #15
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(1) Ilúvatar gave the Dwarves ‘a place’. Would this signify that the Dwarves were not originally foreseen in the Song that the Ainur sung before Ilúvatar’s throne and are therefore not bound by the music? Or would they indeed be part of it since Ilúvatar gave them a place?

I like SGH's post on this - not an original plan, but after offered to Iluvatar by Aule, incorporated into the plan.

(2) On a more pleasant note: Aulë made only the Seven Fathers of the dwarves. How did they find the necessary Seven Mothers to start the race?

I thought I had read somewhere that each of the seven awoke with his spouse by his side, but I'm not sure of this at all... the Sil says Aule "laid them [the fathers] to rest in far-sundered places", but he must have added their spouses at some time.

I wonder why "far-sundered" - what a shock it must have been for them to meet up!
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Old 01-19-2003, 10:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
I believe you're talking about HoME 11, "The War of the Jewels", ch: "Concerning the Dwarves"?
That part does not give any certain answer to the question. It seems like Tolkien experimented with different stories, one where Iluvatar made six female dwarves to accompany the male dwarves made by Aule (except Durin), another where Aule made the female dwarves on Iluvatar's bidding. But in the end Tolkien seems to have abandoned these theories and ended up with the short version as given in the Sil.

Another thing about the seven fathers of the dwarves: They alone of the dwarves were reincarnated after death in the manner of the Elves. I wonder why this was appointed to them alone, and not to all the dwarves?
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Old 01-19-2003, 10:56 AM   #17
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1. Durin father of the longbeards woke in Mount Gundabad. He had no spouse, and married a Dwarven women of a younger generation.

Hmm, i bielieve one awoke in the Blue Mountains, and one in a mountian range that was between the Misty mts. and the Orocarni (Mountain range close ot Cuivenen, in hte East) and a a couple in the Orocarni. That's off the top of my head, though the two may have awoke in the Blue Mountains, hence Belegost and Nogrod.
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Old 01-23-2003, 01:49 PM   #18
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Fne, how can you keep a discussion going here when you lot all agree with each other.

I don't think any one has tried an explanation for this one before:

(5)It is interesting that after Yavanna’s wish for the Ents was granted, Ilúvatar also gave life to the Eagles who would be in Middle-earth before even the Children, the Ents or Dwarves. Any ideas on why this is?
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Old 01-23-2003, 02:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
Fne, how can you keep a discussion going here when you lot all agree with each other.

I don't think any one has tried an explanation for this one before:

(5)It is interesting that after Yavanna’s wish for the Ents was granted, Ilúvatar also gave life to the Eagles who would be in Middle-earth before even the Children, the Ents or Dwarves. Any ideas on why this is?
Maybe they were not part of the music, and cosidered to be of the Children, but were more protectors of the Children and care-givers to the earth. That was their purpose for existance, to provide. The world was made for the Children of Illuvatar, so these other creatures were made to enrich, or guard the creation, and to serve the Children's and the world's needs.
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Old 01-23-2003, 02:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
(5)It is interesting that after Yavanna’s wish for the Ents was granted, Ilúvatar also gave life to the Eagles who would be in Middle-earth before even the Children, the Ents or Dwarves. Any ideas on why this is?
I have a different theory. I think it was already in the Music from the beginning, as was also the Ents, only that Manwe and Yavanna did not understand each others song until that moment. Ilúvatar only fulfilled what was already in the music.

I also think the Ents sprung out of the thoughts of Yavanna, and the Eagles from the thoughts of them both together. It seems to me that Manwe was inspired by Yavanna to put the Eagles into the music:
Quote:
But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds?
The eagles seem to be in line with Manwe's wish to watch over Middle-earth, never completely abandoning the Children of Ilúvatar. The Eagles were his eyes and ears in Middle-Earth.
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