The fate of Tuor

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I couldn't find an appropriate thread for this (sorry if there is one),
and so, I just wanted to know, why/how was Tuor counted among the elves?
i don't quite understand how he could be . . . . . . .

[Lefty Scaevola]

As I read it, on and between the lines, He and Idril and their ship diappeared on the journey, and the fanciful fate sung of him was just wishful thinking and creative writing by song-makers.

"Therfore he built a great ship, and he named it Earrame, which is Sea-wing; and with idril Celebrindal he set sail into the suset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tour alone of mortal men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined to the Noldor, whom he loved, and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."
Note the last sentence is not even presented as fact or history, but just something that some sang much later. Maker Tour elven was outside the power of the the Valar, who were (only later at that) given authority to judge and make whole among the mixed evlen/human, but were expressly forbidden to deprive an (all) human the gift to man. Earendils voyage which reach the west had great impact, yet we hear nothing of Tour and Idril having reached there, and they did not have a silmaril to seek through the eachanted defenses of the twilight Ilses that had stopped every other voyage.
I say they were lost like all other voyages prior to Earendil's, and they Tuor's spirit went the way of humans, and Idrils the way of Elves, and that they are separate until at least the ending of the world, if not forever. And that this obvious fate was just too sad for later romantic poets and Barbs to bear, as it had been borne by the earlier bard who more directly felt the multiple grat tradgedies of the War of the Jewels and Morgoth's reign in ME.

[Artanis]

This is a hard question, but I must say that I tend to agree with Lefty in this, even though I think it would be great if Tuor and Idril was allowed to share the same fate regarding to death. Eru is the only one who could have changed Tuor's fate, and that is a thing I think he would not do, because it would be taking away a gift. Nowhere else is it recorded that one of Men is reckoned among the Elves.

There is another version of the end of Tuor in Middle-Earth, where his longing for the sea becomes so strong that he sails away on his own, leaving Idril behind. A sad version, and hard to believe in, knowing how much Tuor loved Idril.

[Maerbenn]

In my opinion, Tolkien confirms the ‘immortality’ of Tuor with these passages in Letters no. 153 (dated 1954):

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhíni (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

The passage in the published Silmarillion is derived from the old Quenta of 1930 published in HoMe IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth:

But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Staments followed 'It is supposed" and "it must be assumed" do not carry much weight with an old lawyer like me. Supposition tend to fall when challenged with facts.
Luthien present a very different case that Tour, being 1/2 non elvish, and having the gift to man added to her, not taken away.

[Embladyne]

I would like to belive that Tuor was able to share the fate of the firstborn. I have been under the impression that he was granted that exception because of his service to Ulmo, but his death is much more plausible.
Now I really must continue reading HoME.

[Eärniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

There is another version of the end of Tuor in Middle-Earth, where his longing for the sea becomes so strong that he sails away on his own, leaving Idril behind. A sad version, and hard to believe in, knowing how much Tuor loved Idril.

There is IIRC an abandonned part of a story (I believe a poem) that deals with the Tower of Pearl, situated somewhere in the shadowy isles that at that time lay between Middle-earth and Aman to make the latter unreachable.

The Tower of Pearl was said to have a Sleeper inside (who would not wake before the end of time but here I'm really stretching my memory). Tolkien wrote in a side note somewhere that the Sleeper might have been Idril (IIRC). Which might explain what happened to Idril after she sailed to the West but which she never seemed to have reached. However there's no mention of Tuor, whether he is elsewhere, dead or alive, or in there, also sleeping.

[Aphanuzîr]

I believe that Tolkien wanted Tuor to be sort of the Mannish counterpart of Lúthien. Instead of Idril receiving mortality, Tuor receives immortality. There are signs of Tuor's 'elvishness' during his sojourn in Gondolin; he acted and looked like an Elf. Because of this and Maerbenn's quotes, I would go for Tuor receiving an immortal fate.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

There is another version of the end of Tuor in Middle-Earth, where his longing for the sea becomes so strong that he sails away on his own, leaving Idril behind. A sad version, and hard to believe in, knowing how much Tuor loved Idril.

Tuor is one of my favorite characters, and I'm mad at JRRT for writing this version!

Good points, everyone. Personally, I think the story Arty referenced was a vicious rumor started by Maeglin's relatives and the true story is that he was the mannish counterpart of Luthien. This angle seems to be more supported by Tolkien's writings, esp. those quoted by Maerbenn.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Aphanuzîr

I believe that Tolkien wanted Tuor to be sort of the Mannish counterpart of Lúthien. Instead of Idril receiving mortality, Tuor receives immortality. There are signs of Tuor's 'elvishness' during his sojourn in Gondolin; he acted and looked like an Elf. Because of this and Maerbenn's quotes, I would go for Tuor receiving an immortal fate.

That has always been my assumption, and I will stick with you in believing it. I love Tuor, as a character, and always have; I would hate to see him die.

Edit: Post #666 Evil!

[Artanis]

I think the reason who so many people would like Tuor to share the fate of the Elves is that they fail to see that death is a gift from Eru to Men.

[Aphanuzîr]

Artanis: Immortality is also a gift from Eru to the Elves. I quote Maerbenn's quote from Letter #144 again:

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

[Artanis]

Yes Aphanuzír, immortality was a gift tothe Elves, but I was addressing the failure in our own culture to view death as a gift. Therefore we assume that death is something grievous also in Middle-Earth.

[Eärniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Yes Aphanuzír, immortality was a gift tothe Elves, but I was addressing the failure in our own culture to view death as a gift. Therefore we assume that death is something grievous also in Middle-Earth.

You have a good point, Arty. Although, personally speaking, my wish for Tuor indeed being counted among the Eldar stems -not from a dislike of death- but from the wish of not wanting to see Idril and Tuor separated.

Romantic, yeah...

[Rían]

I agree - I don't want to see Tuor and Idril separated. I don't care if Tuor goes Elvish or Idril goes mannish, but I don't want to see them separated And Tuor leaving Idril is DEFINITELY out of character for him!!


(WAIT - what am I saying? If Tuor dumps that pampered princess, I can have him all for my own!!!! Mwahahahaha! *goes to the "Men of the Sil" thread posthaste, elbowing Eärniel out of the way )

[Eärniel]

Originally Posted by Rían

(WAIT - what am I saying? If Tuor dumps that pampered princess, I can have him all for my own!!!! Mwahahahaha! *goes to the "Men of the Sil" thread posthaste, elbowing Eärniel out of the way )

Give it up, Rían, every mother has to let of of her son at one point. Tuor is mine. But let's keep that indeed to the "Men of the Sil" thread.

[Beor]

Tuor is mine, and always will be.

[windlord]

Hi everyone. I'm new to these boards posting but have watched your interplay for a while.Nice boards you have here.
I would like to question lefty on the statement that the Valar were given authority to judge and make whole among the mixed Elven/Human,but were expressly forbidden to deprive an (all) human the gift to Man.
I am a bit lost here. Can you explain this a bit better lefty. Possible references.

[windlord]

Two weeks roughly now that I waited for an answer. No problem. Real world gets in the way of things.
I see no way that anyone cannot believe that Tuor was sundered. Makes sense to me. He married an Elf---would Eru deny him the afterlife with the one that he loved? Did not Luthien come back from Elf to be Man to stay with Beren? Was not Arwen given the choice of Mortal form to lay with Aragorn?

Was it not that the Peredthil were split and sundered to be re-united with Arwen and Aragorn?

[Arien the Maia]

I know this isn't a direct answer, merely an observation of mine, but it seems that the elves who end up entertwined with men always get the better deal...in my opinion the gift of Men is greater than the Elves' gift....Men went outside the workld wereas Elves were bound to it and not sure of there fate when ARda ended...so Luthien gets to be with Beren "outside of Arda", and ARwen gets to be with Aragorn "outside of Arda"...but with Tuor, it's a mystery I suppose