Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren was healed by Lúthien and as it seems with most of the most perilous circumstances, they were rescued by the Eagles. Just in time, I might add and they were returned to the borders of Doriath.

Too bad for Beren that he had swooned! When he had a chance to have a magnificent view of Gondolin from above!

Even with all of what Thingol did to Beren, he would not forsake his daughter to him forever. I wonder if Thingol felt the same way!

Beren was indeed a noble man, wasn't he.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Are we going to take The Shibboleth into account here about the Amrod and Amras? Though one of the brothers actually died there I still think it's relevant (especially thinking of Ambarusso's comment "Fell and fey you are become").

Yes, I like the story about Ambarto dying in the ship, and Ambarusso's comment is relevant. But there's nothing elsewhere in Tolkien's work that supports the Shibboleth on thins point, and even if it is one of his last writings, I think it is difficult to incorporate it. In the published Sil we hear about Maitimo's and Maglor's weariness and sicknes of heart because of the Oath, but none of the other brothers seem to have any regrets.

[Falagar]

True, but then again we don't get to hear much of them at all, and whenever they are mentioned they are just together with "the rest" (of the brothers). Here we actually get to hear a bit about how they think. And true, it'll be hard to incorporate it with the rest of the Silmarillion in some ways, but basically we can only remove Amras from "Amrod and Amras...".

[Lefty Scaevola]

You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him.

Probably why they (he) went away and hid in the east of Beleriand. *tries to imagine what kind of songs Maglor could have made about him*

[Artanis]

Haha, you guys are funny.

Falagar, you're right in that we don't hear much of A&A. I wish we did. I'd like to hear more about Caranthir too. Though I seem to remember from one version of the Sil (not the published) that A&A in fact were the leaders in the third kinslaying.

It's funny, we have M&M, C&C and A&A. Caranthir is the leftover.

[matthew]

Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by matthew
Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much

Well, in all the intros to chapters in the project there are long posts.It's necessary. People have done a great job with all of the intros.

[Beor]

Hey, feeling like just a little guy posting here (you guys are way smarter than me, man), but I do have a question.

I was reading HoME: Book of Lost Tales 2 a while back (havent had much time to read lately), so its not too fresh in my mind, but any ideas on why Tolkien switched from the cats of Morgoth to the one wolf (whos name I dont know how to spell, Carcaroth? something to that effect)? I'm sure Chris T. explains it, but he usually confuses me.

Just wondering (also, I've wanted to get in on these discussions, but all my questions seem like something I could look up if I wasnt lazy, and I dont have enought time to read the books to come up with a good discussion, so this will have to do)

[Artanis]

Hm. It's a long time since I read the Tale of Tinúviel, but I know the Tale to be very different from how the story of Beren and Lúthien appeared in the later versions of the Silmarillion. I don't think CRT ever have explained why Tevildo the Cat disappeared, but he did say that the Huan vs. werewolf could be viewed as the continuation of the Huan vs. Tevildo theme, and that the Necromancer (Sauron) replaced Tevildo as the one who imprisoned Beren.

Though I would say that Tevildo and his companions fit well into the more 'playful' atmosphere and style of the rest of the tales, but not in the later versions as the language and the prose form of the Silmarillion developed through the years.

[Beor]

Yeah, thats right, I forgot about the sauron part, thanks. Any speculation on why he changed it? I thought it was really good, and I liked the legendarium (if that's even a word) of why dogs hate cats.

That said, I think that may be why he did, because when he wrote the LOTR, he had to slip away from his whole "Tol Eressa is England" mythology, and maybe he decided not to have as much myth, also, he now had Sauron. Most likely, it was just one of those changes that all stories go through that added some perspective to it that he thought was missing in Tevildo.

by the way, sorry I havent gotton back to you. I'm on it, I promise.

[Artanis]

please see my last post, I edited it.
And don't stress yourself, there's no hurry.

Edit: And no, I believe Tevildo disappeared long before LotR was begun. The Lay of Leithian was written in the late twenties, and there were no cats there.

[Beor]

gotcha, that's what I was trying to get at with a lot of words (one of which, I may have made up (legendarium), never heard that one before...something similar maybe...)

[Artanis]

Editing and cross-posting with you again.
And I also use the word legendarium.

[Beor]

Well, at least we're consistent.

Do you know where it says when Tevildo disappeared? (probably right there in the BoLT2, right under my nose....)

[Artanis]

I'll see if I can look something up. But I know that Tevildo and his gang appear in the Tale only.

And I'll edit this post when I'm finished!

Edit: This is from BoLT 1, the Foreword:

The Book of Lost Tales was begun by my father in 1916-17 during the First War, when he was 25 years old, and left
incomplete several years later. It is the starting-point, at least in fuHy-formed narrative, of the history of Valinor and Middle-earth; but before the Tales were complete he turned to the composition of long poems, the Lay of Leithian in rhyming couplets (the story of Beren and Luthien), and The Children of Hurin in alliterative verse. The prose form of the 'mythology' began again from a new starting-point* in a quite brief synopsis, or 'Sketch' as he called it, written in
1926 and expressly intended to provide the necessary back-ground of knowledge for the understanding of the alliterative poem.

[Beor]

Yeah, I am going to have to find time to refresh my memory on this anyway. I'm pretty sure its in the BoLT 2, I just cant remember. Thanks, Artanis.

[Eärniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.

I hadn't thought of that parallel. Thingol is indeed using two different measures for himself and Beren. Although one could argue that Maiar and Elves are in a way closer connected to one another and more similar than Elves and Men. And as (I think) SGH pointed out, Thingol didn't deem himself inferior to Melian.

Originally posted by Maedhros
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?

I don't think the whole host would have marched, Finrod may have considered the advantages of sneaking in unnoticed against those of marching with an army in full view against a mighty opponent. But Finrod would have had more support and more counsel so that maybe their endavour had been more succesful.

Originally posted by Maedhros
The power of Lúthien is great. Now imagine if Thingol had used her daughter to make sleep all of her enemies in a battle? That would have been a great advantage.

Thingol doesn't strike me as the type of even considering bringing his daughter to a battlefield (just as little as considering to go to a battlefield himself ). But would Lúthien's power have been that great that she could have affected a whole army? I doubt it.

Maedhros, I noticed you used 'her' instead of Thingol's once of twice. Any unconcious opinions shining through here?

Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren felt asleep too. And our friend became greedy too. Because of the use of the power of Lúthien, she was weary and their disguises were removed. I wonder if Beren had not been so greedy, could they have fled from Angand freely.

I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's

Well, Orodreth at that time could not have withstood them and they held great influence over the people of Nargothrond. Their kinship in the eldest line of Noldorin princes would just have furthered their claim. IMO the people would have supported them if they would have tried to take the throne. A fickle people, those Elves of Nargothrond....

Originally posted by Artanis
It's diffucult to see how Lúthien could have known about the Oath and still revealed herself and her purpose to C&C. She was not stupid. But how this essential information may have escaped her I don't know. She had lived all her life within well-protected borders, but she still knew about the evils that befell outside her father's realm. Maybe it was her father's careless attitude towards the Fëanorean Oath that had influenced her, and perhaps she didn't realise how far Fëanor's sons would go to fulfil it. Though the latter seems unlikely too. An oath is an oath.

I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.

Agreed, though I still get a bad feeling whenever I read that passage (you know, the feeling that makes you scream "Don't do it!" to the heroes at the cinema )

I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.

I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.

[Eärniel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.

When I read about the Celegorm and [EDIT: Curufin] I always get the feeling that in some ways they acted ...'unelfish'. Their dishonouring conduct of cheating and attacking defenseless opponents doesn't entirely fit the 'noble' image of the Noldorin royalty. Granted, the first kinslaying and such can't be considered noble in any way but it seems to me the C-brothers took it somehow even a step further. I think a lot of people would be surprised by how far these two were willing to go.