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Last Child of Ungoliant 05-21-2005 03:16 PM
was it not said somewhere that an ancient sire of the line of mearas was one stallion of orome's? which, in my humble reasoning, make the elven horses from the valinorean strain and the mearas akin to each other, would it not?

Gordis 05-21-2005 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
I agree (for once ;)) with you on all points, gordis. It also brings up the question, Would the Valinorean horses be swifter than Mearas?
Thank you, TD! :)
Perhaps, but how could we know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
was it not said somewhere that an ancient sire of the line of mearas was one stallion of orome's? which, in my humble reasoning, make the elven horses from the valinorean strain and the mearas akin to each other, would it not?
Yes, you are right. At least it was a common belief of the rohirrim.
But, anyway, the elven horses and mearas would be distant relatives, two far diverged lines. Asfaloth BTW could be descended from the horse Glorfindel has brought with him from Valinor in the 2nd age. (If he brought one with him of course).

Telcontar_Dunedain 05-21-2005 05:06 PM
We could look at their speed in relation to the Nazgūl's. If they Nazgūl's horses were Mearas, then Valinorean horses would be quicker. That is unless Asfolath was the chief. The Nazgūl could just about keep up with Asfolath, but couldn't catch him. According to your 'timelines' Gordis, Shadowfax was slightly but noticably quicker than the Nazgūl, but they couldn't keep up with him, quite aswell as they could with Asfolath. From this I would draw the conclusion that Valinorean horse's were quicker, unless Asfolath was their 'king'.

Gordis 05-21-2005 06:01 PM
Uhhh... I am confused :confused: :confused:

mithrand1r 05-21-2005 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
Uhhh... I am confused :confused: :confused:
I think Telcontar_Dunedain (TD) is extending the line of reasoning (based on timelines) that was used to determine something (I am not sure anymore ;)) about the family lines of the horses. (I think he is referencing "Flight to the Ford".

I am not sure if I buy what is being stated, but I think the reasoning is similar to your previous argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
My POV

1. Nazgul horses are very swift

a.Tolkien has not made a blunder in the Tale of Years. Both the Nazgul and Shadowfax took roughly 4 days (min 74, max 118 hours for Gandalf; min 92 max 118 for the nazgul) from the Fords of Isen to the Sarn Ford.

b. In another 2-days race Bree - Weathertop the same participants have shown similar results. And in this case the results could be assessed with more precision
Quote:
"So I stayed in Bree that night, wondering much what had become of the Riders; for only of two had there yet been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them...
I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me"

Nazgul: passed Bree at night
Gandalf left Bree at first light
Both reached Weathertop on the evening of the second day the nazgul before Gandalf
So Nazgul: +- 48 hours
Gandalf +- 42 hours

c.That estimation corresponds to evidence, supported by several quotes, that Tolkien believed Nazgul horses to be very swift but not so swift as Shadowfax.

2. Nazgul horses are likely to be Mearas, as in Rohan there were

a. ordinary horses
b. Mearas (descended from Felarof horse of Eorl). Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them.
c. Shadowfax - the Lord of horses, a special case " And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world".

The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. Seems convincing to me.

However, there is a possibility that they come from entirely different bloodline (i.e. Valinorean elven horses or some other) but it seems less likely.

That's about the size of it.
Gordis

Telcontar_Dunedain 05-22-2005 04:41 AM
Mithrand1r is right. I was trying to determine wether Mereas or Valionorean horses were quicker.

Gordis 05-22-2005 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
Mithrand1r is right. I was trying to determine wether Mereas or Valionorean horses were quicker.
Sorry TD, it was well past midnight so I was not at my best. Thanks Mithrand1r!

Yes, sure!
Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses
If Asfaloth is the Chief of elven horses: Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses>=elven horses

CrazySquirrel 05-26-2005 11:12 AM
Sorry guys I got lost in this discussion...

If we return to the original post:
Why do you think it was the Witch king who got safely out of the river along with his horse and not another nazgul?

Gordis 05-27-2005 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel
Why do you think it was the Witch king who got safely out of the river along with his horse and not another nazgul?
Tolkien wrote that the Witch-King was the most powerful in all ways of the Nine. He was NOT afraid of water (UT).
Probably the three Numenoreans could swim better then the rest. So it makes sense that the WK got out of the river safely.

As for the horse, it may be not his horse that was saved. Or he could have had the best horse of all the Nine. Anyway, I believe it was the WK that returned to Mordor ahead of the others.

Gordis 09-06-2006 08:01 PM
It seems I was right after all. :)

Now I am a happy owner of "Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull and there is a new Tolkien's quote about the only horse surviving the flood.
This quote is from the same writings as the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, dated around 1954.

Quote:
p. 262-3
In this matter Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) says:

Only the bodies of 8 horses were discovered; but also the raiment of the Captain. It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed. The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. Help no doubt was sent out to the other Ringwraiths as they made their way back, and they were bidden to remain secret again. It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.
Bravo, Witch-King!

The isn't that sweet: "if there was any in the world in whom (Sauron) trusted it was the Lord of Angmar"? :p ;)

Forkbeard 09-07-2006 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis
It seems I was right after all. :)

Now I am a happy owner of "Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull and there is a new Tolkien's quote about the only horse surviving the flood.
This quote is from the same writings as the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, dated around 1954.



Bravo, Witch-King!

The isn't that sweet: "if there was any in the world in whom (Sauron) trusted it was the Lord of Angmar"? :p ;)
"Right" about what? In the original post with which you started this thread you stated in part that one of the horses of the 9 could have survived the ruin at the Ford, and that one of the 9, perhaps the W-K himself, could have ridden that horse back to Mordor. So far so good, no one disputed that statement as a possibility. What was debated was your suggestion immediately following that this was the same steed that the W-K rode into battle at Minas Tirith. The quote you provide certainly does not demonstrate the latter. You also claimed that W-K after arriving in Mordor helped the other 8 return on his winged mount, which again, while the quote says that help was sent to them, says nothing about it being the W-K or winged mounts.

So yes, your uncontested belief that one of the Nazgul rode the surviving horse from the ruin of the Fords to Mordor is "right" in the sense that at some point Tolkien himself entertained the idea (but note that even CT didn't include it in UT, hard in my mind to put a lot of weight on it as if it were "canon" to borrow Butterbeer's term), an idea with which no one found fault.

FB

Butterbeer 09-07-2006 05:16 PM
borrow it all you like ...but tis hardly my term ... ;)

nice quote...but at best it seems a 'yes and no' kind of gig...

as the man says ..probably. :p :)

course' what Bath-time Sauron thinks and the Lord of Angmar think are entirely ( posit-ably) and potentially entirely different things ;)

you'll note ..also no proof of being mearas neither :D

(Big hello to FB and Gor though :) )

Best, BB

jammi567 09-07-2006 05:36 PM
Forkbeard and Butterbeer have got good points, as in it doesn't answer whether a) the horses were mearas and b) whether that later horse was the same one.

Butterbeer 09-07-2006 05:44 PM
well said Mr jams!


so...where do you stand on the IF The witch king took and mastered the ONE ring (the ring to rule all others) with sufficient time ere Sauron could effectively reply .... could he have overthrown him?

jammi567 09-08-2006 12:00 PM
That isn't related to the matter at hand, but anyway. I don't think so because although he was a wraith, he still had Man desires, strengths and weaknesses. In fact, i do't think anyone below a maiar could, because of the amount of Sauron's will in the ring.

Gordis 09-09-2006 11:07 AM
Well I am glad that at least part of what I said was proven true. :)
The rest was neither confirmed, nor proved wrong.

Even so, Forkbeard hastened to declare the source non-canonic :p .

Butterbeer 09-09-2006 04:18 PM
it's the beard part ... ;)

Butterbeer 09-09-2006 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
That isn't related to the matter at hand, but anyway. I don't think so because although he was a wraith, he still had Man desires, strengths and weaknesses. In fact, i do't think anyone below a maiar could, because of the amount of Sauron's will in the ring.

ahhh...so - you think this independent "power" is non-transferable, despite the obvious and undeniable concerns of Sauron or the lustful scheming of Saruman (who of all the miar had studied these things).

also- why then fear Aragorn? ... as Miar Gandalf clearly conjectures is the likely result of Sau's haste and concern due to Arargorn revealing himself (in other guise) as the living heir with the re-forged sword via the Palantir ...after, note you, as rightful heir, forcibly mastering the stone directly against Sauron's will and control?

You will need better arguments than a vague, i think not, Mr jams! :) ;)

best, BB

jammi567 09-09-2006 04:57 PM
Well, it's like a drug, isn't it. If you have the chance to tke it, and you say no, then that's it,it won't affect you again.

Exactly. He was Isilador's heir. The one who had defeated him before. Of course he's going to be a bit worried.

And looking back at your post, no, i don't think the Witch-king could overthrow him with time, with the Ring. He would become it's slave.

Butterbeer 09-09-2006 07:02 PM
how can the Master thus become the slave?

The issue posited Mr Jams was not would the ring master the Lord of Angmar?

... but IF the Witch King mastered the ring, would he then overthrow Sauron?

... bearing in mind as master of all the rings he controls them all and any as are foolish enough to then wield them.

and sauron without rings?

best, BB :)


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