Who attacks the Hobbit rooms?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

My apologies if this has been brought up before but:

I just finished re-reading the chapter Strider and A Knife in the Dark and something has occurred to me that I hadn’t thought of before. Do the wraiths actually trash the hobbit’s room, or do the Breelander spies do it? I had always assumed it was the wraiths but:

“What will happen” asked Merry “will they attack the Inn?”

“No, I think not” said Strider. “They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues Eriador still lie before us. But there power is in terror, and some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferney, and some of the strangers, and maybe the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at Westgate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.”

It seems odd to me that Tolkien would put these words into Strider’s mouth if he is going to have the Wraiths attack the Inn that night. It seems as though he is suggesting that the some of the villagers will do it for them; chasing the horses off, and forcing open the window. If it were some of the villagers, it would explain why the wrong room is attacked (although the other wraiths are attacking Fatty so I’m not sure how far this line of reasoning goes toward proving anything). Tolkien never says who actually attacked the room that night, (and unlike the Bakshi and Jackson films no one hears anything either) but he does say that the squint-eyed southerner was up to no good, and he has disappeared.

So who attacked the room? And if it was the wraiths; why is Tolkien introducing Strider to the reader by giving the hobbits information that turns out to be completely wrong. The more I think about it the more it seems to me that the wraiths snuck into Bree through the back gate and are lurking in the shadows getting information and driving the villagers to do all of the work that is in the open either by paying them or scaring the crap out of them. Any thoughts?

[Valandil]

I had always thought it was the Black Riders too. But I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe in one of his letters) where JRRT said it was not them... that it was indeed some of their local 'help'... hmmm, maybe one or more were present though - there was some shrieking going on when it turned out to be a ruse, right? Or was that only in the movie and not the book? (EDIT: ol' squintyeye edited his post to say it wasn't in the books after I had this posted, btw:) ) (ALSO EDIT: At least Strider certainly advised the right thing when he had them not sleep in their own beds...;) )

Similarly, another thread is discussing the figure in Sam's vision who speaks - and the 'wheel of fire' - Frodo with some 'power enhancement' of the Ring, right? Again, it seems I read something odd on this... like was that actually Eru interposing? If so, I don't know how you can see it in the story...

[Nurvingiel]

Hasn't this thread been done before? (Someone who was in it - what was the outcome?)

[Attalus]

We debated this at length at SF-Fandom. Recall that Aragorn said that Bill Ferny was just increasing his profits on the deal by selling them Bill the Pony, indicating that he got paid off and that it was he and the Southron spy that did the dirty work. Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

[Nurvingiel]

Are you saying the Nazgul didn't try to stab them in their beds at all? Or, just that they didn't ransack the rooms.

[brownjenkins]

good point squinteyedsoutherner... i never really thought on it, but it makes perfect sense that the ringwraiths would prefer to work through others if they could

[Attalus]

I am saying that Bill Ferny and the Southerner tore up the bolsters and ransacked the room. Whether one or more of the Nazgûl were with them is a moot point (sorry), :D but I am inclined to think that there was. They would not trust such rascals with the Ring, assuming that they took it from Frodo, which of course they didn't.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Attalus
I am saying that Bill Ferny and the Southerner tore up the bolsters and ransacked the room. Whether one or more of the Nazgûl were with them is a moot point (sorry), :D but I am inclined to think that there was. They would not trust such rascals with the Ring, assuming that they took it from Frodo, which of course they didn't.
Now that is interesting. Most arguments against the Nazgul's participation tend to take Aragorn's speculation at face value and assume that the break-in was solely the work of Ferny and Co. I've never been particularly persuaded that Aragorn's admitted guess was quite that compelling. However, the hybrid operation posited here makes good sense-the Nazgul would be unlikely to leave such an expedition unsupervised.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Attalus
Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

Since the text is vague, this seems to be the most compelling piece of the argument. Whether or not the Ringwraiths were present, I have to assume the bulk of the nasty work was done by their agents.

[jerseydevil]

But they never actually attacked the Prancing Pony though.

“What will happen” asked Merry “will they attack the Inn?”

I think what Aragorn was referring to was full frontal attack to try to claim the Ring. They would not attempt that.

“No, I think not” said Strider. “They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way.

I think what he said - is what they did - snuck in in the dead of night and went to the rooms.

..In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people..

I think the evilness that the others do - is finding information - where the Hobbits are staying and so forth. I think it was the black riders that went into the room though.

I feel if the Black Riders can manage to attack them on Weathertop at night - they can manage to attack them in a hotel room too. Also - there seems to be no argument that the Black Riders are the ones who attack Crickhollow - so again - why wouldn't they be able to attack Frodo's room in the Prancing Pony?

[edit] I disagree that the information that Aragorn gave them is completely wrong. I think the way people have interpreted Merry's question and Strider's words are wrong.

[Falagar]

And of course, there's the scenario of one of the Nazgûls getting slain. I don't think they (or Sauron) would risk having to fight the Bree-lenders (even if the risk for the Bree-lenders to fight was very small) when they could send others to do it.

There may be something about this in UT, but it's a long time since I last read in it so I can't remember...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
We debated this at length at SF-Fandom. Recall that Aragorn said that Bill Ferny was just increasing his profits on the deal by selling them Bill the Pony, indicating that he got paid off and that it was he and the Southron spy that did the dirty work. Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...

Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But they never actually attacked the Prancing Pony though.

I think what Aragorn was referring to was full frontal attack to try to claim the Ring. They would not attempt that.

I think what he said - is what they did - snuck in in the dead of night and went to the rooms.

I think the evilness that the others do - is finding information - where the Hobbits are staying and so forth. I think it was the black riders that went into the room though.

I feel if the Black Riders can manage to attack them on Weathertop at night - they can manage to attack them in a hotel room too. Also - there seems to be no argument that the Black Riders are the ones who attack Crickhollow - so again - why wouldn't they be able to attack Frodo's room in the Prancing Pony?

[edit] I disagree that the information that Aragorn gave them is completely wrong. I think the way people have interpreted Merry's question and Strider's words are wrong.

I agree with these points as well...

[Wayfarer]

If JRR has said in his letters that it wasn't them, then I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Can't recall him ever saying that, though.

I /do/ take Aragorn's speculation at face value- he certainly knew his lore when it came to evil creatures. The Nazgul were not the type of force that would attack openly and obviously in a populatd area, but they were certainly not agents of stealth that would sneak in to attack someone.

No, it was very likely some of the local humans that they had intimidated or corrupted. The nazgul's tactic is what they do at weathertop- try and catch their prey alone, far from help, and descend on them for the kill in the dead of night.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
No, it was very likely some of the local humans that they had intimidated or corrupted. The nazgul's tactic is what they do at weathertop- try and catch their prey alone, far from help, and descend on them for the kill in the dead of night.
And what better place would that be than alone in their room with no exit? :rolleyes:

EDIT - they don't always do things in the open. Also - it's not like they're really afraid of death. Who is going to stop them once they have the ring? Sorry - I also don't think they would have someone else take care of Frodo like that and risk the Ring getting into someone elses hands.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...

Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level... Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right, and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone. Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Attalus
Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right,

The job was NOT to kill him - they did their job which was to bring him over to their world through the wound and sliver of snife make it's way to the heart - then collect the ring.

and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone.

They weren't run off - they didn't need to get Frodo at that time - they could wait. No one thought that a Hobbit could withstand that wound so long. Even Gandalf made mention how he far outlasted the strongest men.

Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.
There was more to him getting killed than by a hobbit and a woman. There was the blade which Merry obtained in the Barrow Downs which had something to do with that. :rolleyes:

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I agree with JD here, the goal on Weathertop was to command Frodo to reveal himself (which he did) so they could stab him in the heart. Frodo’s courage and attempted stab at them resulted in a deflection of that thrust from his heart to his shoulder. The wraiths left because they felt they had still accomplished their task even though they missed the heart. The goal at that point was to wait for Frodo to turn into a wraith himself and come back to Mordor willingly.

Remember Aragorn is surprised they are not attacking again until he learns of Frodo's wound. Also, I don't think Aragorn plays any role in their departure after the attack, they are in and out before anyone really gets a chance to do anything. By the time Aragorn picks up the fire they're already leaving.

Funny the wraiths attack at Crickhollow and in the room (if it was them) both of these events seem to undermine their ability to sense the whereabouts of the ring.

[Wayfarer]

Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right, The job was NOT to kill him - they did their job which was to bring him over to their world through the wound and sliver of snife make it's way to the heart - then collect the ring. Wrong, and wrong.

The text strongly inticates that the Witch-King was aiming for a killing blow to the heart. Only Frodo's courage (or foolishness) in charging and attacking caused the blow to miss, saving his life.

But even that wound was enough, given the potency of the weapon used, that the Nazgul did not feel the need to essay another attack.

[Attalus]

But, if they were so powerful, why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Why all of the sneak-around, they could just take it? When they were horsed, the Nazgûl overwhelmed the Dúnedain at Sarn Ford and killed and ran off many, according to UT. Unhorsed, all they could do was to try to poison/bewitch him. My point is proved in that they couldn't even attack Frodo with the Morgul-knife until he put on the Ring, and they screwed that up by stabbing him in the shoulder instead of the heart. You cannot tell me with a straight face that if they could have killed Aragorn and simply picked up the Ring, they would not have. No, I think the Nazgûl unmounted were quite weak, hence Gandalf's comment that, after the Ford of Bruinen, they had to make their way back to their master as best they could. And, Merry's blade or no, if he were all that powerful, he could have still defended himself. It was Éowyn, not Merry, that killed him.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The text strongly inticates that the Witch-King was aiming for a killing blow to the heart. Only Frodo's courage (or foolishness) in charging and attacking caused the blow to miss, saving his life.

It does not say that. As Gandalf indicates in Many Meetings - the goal was for them to take Frodo over to their side - that is why they were able to bide their time. They were aiming for the heart - but it would NOT have "killed" him.


"I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would have quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days...

They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are; only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring; if any greater torment were possibe than being robbed of it and seeing it in his hand."

...They did not need the guidance of their of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world.


Gandalf's first and last comments support that the sliver would have ultimately had the same result had he been struck directly in the heart, but the splinter was enough for the job - or so they thought. It would have been immediate had they struck the heart - but they did feel they could bide their time since Frodo was required to bear the wound for 17 days.

But even that wound was enough, given the potency of the weapon used, that the Nazgul did not feel the need to essay another attack.
They didn't have to - they were just waiting for Frodo to succumb to the wound.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Attalus
But, if they were so powerful, why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Why all of the sneak-around, they could just take it?

They attempted several times to kill Frodo. They just couldn't come out into the open to do it. And they were weakened during the day.

When they were horsed, the Nazgûl overwhelmed the Dúnedain at Sarn Ford and killed and ran off many, according to UT.

That's unfinished tales - by Christopher Tolkien - collected from JRR Tolkien's notes - it's not necessarily the truth of something that happened though.

Unhorsed, all they could do was to try to poison/bewitch him. My point is proved in that they couldn't even attack Frodo with the Morgul-knife until he put on the Ring,

That's not true - the ring is what told them which ONE was frodo. Could you pick out one person out of four you had never met and guess who is who? They only had one chance to stab the right Hobbit. The Ring just showed them who it was.

and they screwed that up by stabbing him in the shoulder instead of the heart. You cannot tell me with a straight face that if they could have killed Aragorn and simply picked up the Ring, they would not have.

I didn't say they could. There power was in psychological terror - not physically attacking. They had ONE goal and that was to get the Ring - as quickly as possible and with the least amount of problems and danger. Using the Morgul Blade and running off - would have accomplished that if Frodo was not so strong.

(side note - this is one of my big problems with those damn movies Jackson made, the nazgul have become more physical- than psychological.)

No, I think the Nazgûl unmounted were quite weak, hence Gandalf's comment that, after the Ford of Bruinen, they had to make their way back to their master as best they could.

At that point they weren't just unhoresed - but unclocked. They had no form at that time.

And, Merry's blade or no, if he were all that powerful, he could have still defended himself. It was Éowyn, not Merry, that killed him.
That has always been in question - and I think it is the combination of the two that is what killed him.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I didn't say they could. There power was in psychological terror - not physically attacking. They had ONE goal and that was to get the Ring - as quickly as possible and with the least amount of problems and danger. Using the Morgul Blade and running off - would have accomplished that if Frodo was not so strong.

(side note - this is one of my big problems with those damn movies Jackson made, the nazgul have become more physical- than psychological.)



That has always been in question - and I think it is the combination of the two that is what killed him. Well, I definitely agree that their power was in terror. Not so hard to stab a man who is cowering in fear. And I agree that thinking the Morgul-knife would overcome Frodo was a miscalculation, pure and simple. As for the W-K, I think that Merry's blade obviated some or all of his magical defenses, leaving him wide open to Éowyn's stroke.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"As for the W-K, I think that Merry's blade obviated some or all of his magical defenses, leaving him wide open to Éowyn's stroke"

that has always been my understanding of what took place.

Back to Bree for a moment!

I still have a problem with the wraiths entering the hobbit room in Bree though, because that means that either they didn’t know the ring was elsewhere, (and that just doesn’t seem to fit) or they knew it wasn’t there but went in anyway to perhaps look for clues (except they’re blind?)

Perhaps the wraiths could sense that the ring was not in the room and at that point instructed the villagers to go in and find out if there was any indication of where the hobbits had gone. This could also explain Crickhollow, perhaps they also knew that the ring was not there but thought they could blackbreath whoever answered the door and learn something.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I still have a problem with the wraiths entering the hobbit room in Bree though, because that means that either they didn’t know the ring was elsewhere, (and that just doesn’t seem to fit) or they knew it wasn’t there but went in anyway to perhaps look for clues (except they’re blind?)

Perhaps the wraiths could sense that the ring was not in the room and at that point instructed the villagers to go in and find out if there was any indication of where the hobbits had gone. This could also explain Crickhollow, perhaps they also knew that the ring was not there but thought they could blackbreath whoever answered the door and learn something.
The ring was never a pin point accuracy thing - except if Frodo was wearing it - or if it was right there in front of them, or the closer the Ring gets to Mordor.

Frodo was at the Prancing Pony and they would have sensed that, but it would not have told them that he was right there in front of them. Also - who knows how strongly they would have been sensing it with Frodo being asleep.

There had to be a conscious connection between the Ring Wraiths and the Ring Bearer - as indicated on the road to Crickhollow. Frodo's thoughts of putting on the Ring - seem to draw them even closer. The Ring gives them an idea of where it is - but it's the Ring Bearer's thoughts that narrow it down and then if he puts it on they can ultimately see him clearly. So I think there are three levels of the Rings power on drawing the Ring Wraiths to Frodo. With Frodo beng asleep the Ring's power to draw the Black Riders is the weakest and therefore they are stabbing in the dark.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Radar?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Radar?
I guess basically that is what it would be. The yget a sense of where the ring is - that is all and then the strength of that feeling is determined by other factors.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The sleeping angle is interesting, I’ve never thought of that before. I’m still just a little bit troubled by the image of several wraiths leaning over an open window ledge into a small Inn room still not knowing whether the ring is present or not. They would be within a matter of feet at that point. Maybe I just don’t like the idea that my favorite villains are so easily deceived.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I’m still just a little bit troubled by the image of several wraiths leaning over an open window ledge into a small Inn room still not knowing whether the ring is present or not. They would be within a matter of feet at that point.

i don't think they were leaning in through the window ledge. I think they were told where the hobbits were going to be staying - confirmed it and assumed that later on in the middle of the night - they would be able to walk into the room and they would be there.

Where did you get that they were leaning over an open window ledge?

Maybe I just don’t like the idea that my favorite villains are so easily deceived.
I don't think they were decieved based on what I said above. I do think they had their limits though. They weren't all knowing.

hate to bring movie into here again - but you must have been really pissed then at how weak jackson made them - going so far as having the Ring only a couple of feet in front of it and then flying off after having a couple of arrows shot at it. :rolleyes:

[Sister Golden Hair]

i don't think they were leaning in through the window ledge. I think they were told where the hobbits were going to be staying - confirmed it and assumed that later on in the middle of the night - they would be able to walk into the room and they would be there.Maybe they just knew the ways of Hobbits. Maybe they learned from Saruman, who learned from Gandalf. It was pretty common knowledge that Hobbits didn't like high places and prefered to sleep on the ground floor. I mean, doesn't Butterbur even offer them these rooms, just because they are Hobbits and that was what those particular rooms were made to accommodate?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Maybe they just knew the ways of Hobbits. Maybe they learned from Saruman, who learned from Gandalf. It was pretty common knowledge that Hobbits didn't like high places and prefered to sleep on the ground floor. I mean, doesn't Butterbur even offer them these rooms, just because they are Hobbits and that was what those particular rooms were made to accommodate?
Yes - but I don't think they leaned over or came in through the window. I can't really picture a Ring Wraith as trying to climb over a window ledge to get into the room. It would be in a comedic version of the Lord of the Rings - Ring Wraith lifts up his leg to try getting in the window, hits his head, his robe gets tangled outside, he trips over it and falls flat on his face. Surprised Jackson didn't film it like that. :rolleyes:

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right, and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone. Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.

Apparently you can't read. If you look at your post and then my post, it disproves your theory...

You said "Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room".

I followed with "Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...
Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level..."

I don't see why that's hard to understand. I mean you said they are helpless off their mounts, but yet they could climb up weathertop, sneak past everyone and stab Frodo...

Doesn't seem helpless to me...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I was responding more to your saying that they were told that the Hobbits were there, not the notion of them coming through the window. I don't think anyone told them that would be where they were. I think they assumed it out of knowing Hobbit nature.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I was responding more to your saying that they were told that the Hobbits were there, not the notion of them coming through the window. I don't think anyone told them that would be where they were. I think they assumed it out of knowing Hobbit nature.
But how did they know WHICH room? This I think they were told.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But how did they know WHICH room? This I think they were told. Butterrbur refers to that particular room as being Hobbit sized, or something such as that, which tells me that it was a specific style of design suited to their needs, and was not common at that inn, so therefore, would be easy to single out from the rest. Plus the fact that Aragorn took them elsewhere to sleep, tells me that he suspected that might be the first place they would look for them.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Butterrbur refers to that particular room as being Hobbit sized, or something such as that, which tells me that it was a specific style of design suited to their needs, and was not common at that inn, so therefore, would be easy to single out from the rest. Plus the fact that Aragorn took them elsewhere to sleep, tells me that he suspected that might be the first place they would look for them.
Nope - I have understoof that there were MANY rooms like that at the inn for Hobbit guests - it was just that many were filled that night.


...two wings running back on land partly cut out of the lower slopes of the hill, so that the rear of the second floor windows were level with the ground.

..."If you weren't hobbits, I doubt we could house you. But we've got a room or two in the north wing that were made special for hobbits, when this place was built. On the ground floor as they usually prefer; round windows and all as they like."


Now if there was ONLY one room in the Inn that was for hobbits - Butterbur would know that it was only one room. It just seems that every room in the inn is basically taken and they even only have one or two hobbit rooms left. Don't forget there were other hobbits talking, singing and dancing in the Inn with Frodo, Sam and Pippin. If they were staying at the Inn - I assume they were occupying the other hobbit rooms.

So no - I don't think the Black Riders know which room the hobbits are staying in - because there isn't just one of those rooms.

As for Aragorn having him sleep with him - I think that was just a precaution and protection. It would be understandable to suspect that the black riders would attempt to attack the room at night.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Where did you get that they were leaning over an open window ledge?

“When they saw them they were glad they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping: the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung on the floor: the brown mat was torn to pieces.”

I have always taken this to mean that the intruders entered from outsied the Inn via the ground floor window.

but you must have been really pissed then at how weak jackson made them -

Yes, one of many letdowns for me.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Apparently you can't read. If you look at your post and then my post, it disproves your theory...

You said "Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room".

I followed with "Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...
Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level..."

I don't see why that's hard to understand. I mean you said they are helpless off their mounts, but yet they could climb up weathertop, sneak past everyone and stab Frodo...

Doesn't seem helpless to me... I said "rather helpless," a coparative to the power and terror that they could wield when mounted. I can read quite well, thank you.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Nope - I have understoof that there were MANY rooms like that at the inn for Hobbit guests - it was just that many were filled that night.



Now if there was ONLY one room in the Inn that was for hobbits - Butterbur would know that it was only one room. It just seems that every room in the inn is basically taken and they even only have one or two hobbit rooms left. Don't forget there were other hobbits talking, singing and dancing in the Inn with Frodo, Sam and Pippin. If they were staying at the Inn - I assume they were occupying the other hobbit rooms.

So no - I don't think the Black Riders know which room the hobbits are staying in - because there isn't just one of those rooms.

As for Aragorn having him sleep with him - I think that was just a precaution and protection. It would be understandable to suspect that the black riders would attempt to attack the room at night.

As I wrote earlier, I suspect the actual dirty work was done by agents of the Ringwraiths, rather than the Ringwraiths themselves. Even if not, it seems likely the agents of the Ringwraiths were the ones to point to which room the hobbits were staying in.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Even if not, it seems likely the agents of the Ringwraiths were the ones to point to which room the hobbits were staying in.
This is what I have always believed - but I believe the Ringwraiths themselves attacked.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
“When they saw them they were glad they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping: the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung on the floor: the brown mat was torn to pieces.”

I have always taken this to mean that the intruders entered from outsied the Inn via the ground floor window.
Okay - I had forgotten that line. I'll go with that they came in through the window.

[ethuiliel]

I think I remember PJ or someone else involved in the movie saying that they did not think that the ringwraiths attacked the room, and that they only put it in because it would be more dramatic in a movie. If the people who put the ringwraiths attacking the inn into the movie say that it wasn't them, I'd say that that was proof enough that it wasn't the ringwraiths who attacked the room.
However, after reading this thread I think its possible that they were there, even if they didn't do the actual attack.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by ethuiliel
I think I remember PJ or someone else involved in the movie saying that they did not think that the ringwraiths attacked the room, and that they only put it in because it would be more dramatic in a movie. If the people who put the ringwraiths attacking the inn into the movie say that it wasn't them, I'd say that that was proof enough that it wasn't the ringwraiths who attacked the room.

Why would you assume they were experts on Lord of the Rings? Because they said they were fans of the books and that they were doing the movies? They are the ones who gave us Flight to the Ford. :rolleyes:

However, after reading this thread I think its possible that they were there, even if they didn't do the actual attack.
Why do you not believe they were NOT there?

[ethuiliel]

Why would you assume they were experts on Lord of the Rings? I mean that they were, though I may have sounded like it. I meant that I don't think they would have admitted that they changed the books when they were attacked for other changes, unless they felt that it was really true, and they had a good reason to think it.

Why do you not believe they were NOT there? Partly Aragorn's quote, and partly because I don't think that the Ringwraiths would like attacking the hobbits in a populated, comfortable place, when their major weapons were fear and helplessness.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by ethuiliel
I mean that they were, though I may have sounded like it. I meant that I don't think they would have admitted that they changed the books when they were attacked for other changes, unless they felt that it was really true, and they had a good reason to think it.

Just because they were familiar with the books - doesn't mean they really KNEW the books or are experts on them.

Partly Aragorn's quote, and partly because I don't think that the Ringwraiths would like attacking the hobbits in a populated, comfortable place, when their major weapons were fear and helplessness.
The hobbits were in their room - by themselves in the middle of the night. It's not like there were a ton of people around and in broad daylight. There was no difference in them attacking the room at the Prancing Pony than in them attacking Crickhollow - which obviously they did.

[Lótiel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain

I followed with "Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...
Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level..."

I don't see why that's hard to understand. I mean you said they are helpless off their mounts, but yet they could climb up weathertop, sneak past everyone and stab Frodo...

Doesn't seem helpless to me... I´m quite sure the Nazgûls didn´t have to climb up Weathertop. Frodo and the others camped in a hollow close by the foot of weathertop, it´s not like in the film. It´s been a while since I read this part, but I don´t think they camped on Weathertop.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lótiel
I´m quite sure the Nazgûls didn´t have to climb up Weathertop. Frodo and the others camped in a hollow close by the foot of weathertop, it´s not like in the film. It´s been a while since I read this part, but I don´t think they camped on Weathertop.
You are right they only look on very top of Weathertop....


..After half an hour's plodding climb Strider reached the crown of the hill; Frodo and Merry followed, tired and breathless. The last slope had been steep and rocky.

On the top they foudn as Strider had said, a wide ring of ancient stonework, now crumbling or covered with age-long grass...


But then camp here...

Down in the lowest and most sheltered corner of the dell they lit a fire and prepared a meal...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lótiel
I´m quite sure the Nazgûls didn´t have to climb up Weathertop. Frodo and the others camped in a hollow close by the foot of weathertop, it´s not like in the film. It´s been a while since I read this part, but I don´t think they camped on Weathertop.

Actually the hollow wasn't at the bottom it was halfway up...At least that is how I read it, though it doesn't specifically say other than that it says they made their way for the top and then after that the hollow is mentioned...

FotR; A Knife in the Dark:

It was already mid-day when they drew near the southern end of the path, and saw before them, in the pale clear light of the October sun, a grey-green bank, leading up like a bridge on to the northward slope of the hill. They decided to make for the top at once, while the daylight was broad. Concealment was no longer possible, and they could only hope that no enemy or spy was observing them. Nothing was to be seen moving on the hill. If Gandalf was anywhere about, there was no sign of him.

On the western flank of Weathertop they found a sheltered hollow, at the bottom of which there was a bowl-shaped dell with grassy sides. There they left Same and Pippin with the pony and their packs and luggage. The other three went on. After half an hour's plodding clim Strider reached the crown of the hill; Frodo and Merry followed, tired and breathless. The last clope had been steep and rocky.

I guess it could go either way, as it doesn't specifically state where the hollow was, but I always read it as it was on the way up on the path of Weathertop. I say that because they started to go up on the path on the southern side of Weathertop and the hollow was on the western side of it...

P.S. I never said they were on the top of Weathertop either...Climbing a hill doesn't mean it is the whole hill :p

[LutraMage]

And this is why I love The Lord of the Rings so much! Having read the books so many times I had never noticed this discrepancy until now. All the points made in this thread are really interesting. And yet again I find something new in a book I thought I knew so well. Thanks guys and gals.

[Thorin II]

I don't mean to confuse the books with the movies, but wasn't there something about the Nazgul being stronger when closer to Mordor? I can't remember if/when it was mentioned in the books.