The Ring Speaks?

[Forkbeard]

Elsewhere on the Net a discussion has raged on whether or not the Ring speaks. So I'd like to get comments and an unscientific poll of those present.

In RoTK, "Mount Doom", Frodo and Sam are on their way up the volcano when Gollum attacks them. Frodo beats Gollum off, tells him to get down, he can't do anything to Frodo now.

Then:

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire spoke a commanding voice.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

So whom do readers think is the speaker here, Frodo or the Ring?

[Twista]

doesnt sound like frodo... thats all im saying. lol

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire."
______________________________________

I know this has been argued from both sides, but I don't see why. To me the above quote would obviously be Frodo (a figure robed in white) and the Ring being (a wheel of fire).

[Lefty Scaevola]

I think that it is the mental command of Frodo, projected through the ring., and that this command is very likely a cause of Gollum falling into the fire a little later.

[durin's bane]

I agree. It was most likely the Ring projecting some kind of image of Frodo.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by durin's bane
most likely the Ring projecting some kind of image of Frodo. yes, that's what I've thought too. It' Frodo speaking, not the Ring, though the Ring enhances Frodo's words or power or something.

[Wayfarer]

No, I think it's the ring speaking- at the very least, it was speaking through Frodo, but sam's vision has the words being spoken by the ring itself.

[The Gaffer]

Hmm. Maybe this is supposed to be a glimpse of the power the ring could offer someone who could wield it properly. So, to my mind, the answer would be "a ring-enhanced Frodo".

My guess is that this discussion derives from the whisperings that Jackson inserted to convey the temptation characters felt from the ring.

[Attalus]

I don't see why the Ring would say such a thing, even if it had a voice, which I doubt. I am quite sure that the Ring would have infinitely preferred Gollum as a Ringbearer than Frodo, whom I am quite sure the Ring knew was trying to destroy it. But, like it or no, Frodo had power as a Ringbearer, especially on the slopes of Orodruin, so near the Sammath Naur where it was forged. I think that the words were Frodo's, magnified and given force, not only by the Ring itself, but by Gollum's oath on it.

[Bacchus]

I think it's Frodo, but a Ring-corrupted Frodo. Recall that he is soon to claim the Ring for his own. The arrogance of the command certainly stems from the corruption of the Ring-can you imagine Frodo saying any such thing in Ithilien?

The thought that the Ring itself is making this command doesn't pass the smell test for me. Compare this scene with the one of Sam on the stairs of the Tower confronting Snaga. If the Ring were capable of issuing its own commands, I feel that that encounter would have been far different.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Bacchus
I think it's Frodo, but a Ring-corrupted Frodo. Recall that he is soon to claim the Ring for his own. The arrogance of the command certainly stems from the corruption of the Ring-can you imagine Frodo saying any such thing in Ithilien?

The thought that the Ring itself is making this command doesn't pass the smell test for me. Compare this scene with the one of Sam on the stairs of the Tower confronting Snaga. If the Ring were capable of issuing its own commands, I feel that that encounter would have been far different.

I agree with Bacchus. My feeling is that Ring does not have the power to act on its own; instead, it influences other people to act on its behalf. For example, when Gollum (and others) the Ring, the Ring didn't leap off their hands or anything, but it did cause them to be momentarily careless.

[Wayfarer]

Come on, people, look at the facts. :rolleyes:

In this situation, we are presented with the following (from samwise's point of view):

Frodo appears as a figure holding a wheel of fire at his breast, facing gollum, who appears as a shadowy figure. Out of the wheel comes a commanding voice.

Now...

-Before this passage there are at least two times in which Frodo compares the ring to 'a wheel of fire.' At one point he says that this is all he can see.

-The ring has already been treated as though having a mind and will since the very beginning of the tale.

-It is made explicitly clear that the voice sam hears comes 'out of the fire'. NOT from the figure.

-If Frodo had been speaking, Tolkien was a good enough writer to say so.

If Tolkien has gone to the effort of making it clear that frodo isn't speaking, it's pretty foolish to go on with this claptrap about 'mental commands' and such nonsense.

[jerseydevil]

How can we be sure of what Sam saw or heard though. Frodo wasn't robed in white - so Sam only seems to have pictured him like that. Doesn't it go to reason that maybe Sam also pictured the voice coming from the "fire"? I don't think the ring said anything - anymore than Frodo miraculously was robed in white. I think both were purely in Sam's imagination.


...Sam saw these two rivals with other vision...


It's sort of like when Frodo sees Bilbo in Rivendell and he shows him the Ring...


...a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands.

No one really thinks that Bilbo turned into this.

I do find it ironic that Tolkien chose Frodo to appear strong and clothed in white - but yet without feeling - this is moments before he claims the ring as his own. White is usually a sign of goodness - but the description of Frodo isn't necessarily of goodness and he ultimately succumbed to the evil of the Ring moments later.


...before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figured robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Thorin II
My feeling is that Ring does not have the power to act on its own; instead, it influences other people to act on its behalf.I think the Ring is capable to act on its own. It slips off Isildur's finger in the river when he's fleeing from the Orcs, and I also think the Ring decided to leave Gollum, and in some way slipped off him too, for Bilbo to find it. Though I agree that it doesn't speak.

[Fat middle]

I'd try to develop later. This is a very interesting topic.

I tend to agree with Attalus in this, but I'd want to introduce now a point that may be important: who wrote this scene, Frodo (from what Sam might have told him) or Sam? Frodo, and then Sam modified it?

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Fat middle
I'd try to develop later. This is a very interesting topic.

I tend to agree with Attalus in this, but I'd want to introduce now a point that may be important: who wrote this scene, Frodo (from what Sam might have told him) or Sam? Frodo, and then Sam modified it?

I believe Frodo wrote the scene, although it was certainly done from Sam's input.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
So whom do readers think is the speaker here, Frodo or the Ring?

Frodo of course, everybody knows rings don't have vocal cords. ;)

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think the Ring is capable to act on its own. It slips off Isildur's finger in the river when he's fleeing from the Orcs, and I also think the Ring decided to leave Gollum, and in some way slipped off him too, for Bilbo to find it. Though I agree that it doesn't speak.

Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the riverbed sometime in the 2500 years it sat there? It makes more sense to me to think that the Ring's power is over the hearts and minds of those around it. As such, it can act indirectly by imposing its will on others.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the river sometime in the 2500 years it sat there?
Perhaps it can control its own size, shrinking and growing at will. It would explain why it would both fit the hand of a grown man and that of a hobbit.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps it can control its own size, shrinking and growing at will. It would explain why it would both fit the hand of a grown man and that of a hobbit. Yes, that's how I think of it also.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the riverbed sometime in the 2500 years it sat there? It makes more sense to me to think that the Ring's power is over the hearts and minds of those around it. As such, it can act indirectly by imposing its will on others.

While, as Earniel says, it did shrink or grow to fit the finger of its bearer, I don't think it had control of the 'material' world around it. When it 'slipped off someone's finger' - it may have been due to the control it exerted over the mind of the bearer... causing them to 'slack off' a bit and without their notice, allow the Ring to slip away...

Plausible???

[Wayfarer]

The ring could appearantly make itself lighter and heavier, or larger and smaller, to fit any bearer. That's how it slipped off- simply becoming too large to fit while they weren't noticing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the riverbed sometime in the 2500 years it sat there? It makes more sense to me to think that the Ring's power is over the hearts and minds of those around it. As such, it can act indirectly by imposing its will on others.
Gandalf makes it quite clear that the Ring shrinks and grows on it's own and may be tight one time and slip off the finger the next. Other than that - it does not seem as if the Ring has many other powers - such as rolling itself out of the river or speaking. It's goal is always to get back to Sauron and tries to find "victims" which will ultimately bring it back to Sauron.


"...Though he (Bilbo) found out that the thing (Ring) needed looking after; it did not seem always the same size and weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight."

".......A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously but its keeper never abandons it...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him...

There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him..."


Well I guess while I was typing my back up quotes - Wayfarer and Valandil beat me to the counter argument.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Gandalf makes it quite clear that the Ring shrinks and grows on it's own and may be tight one time and slip off the finger the next. Other than that - it does not seem as if the Ring has many other powers - such as rolling itself out of the river or speaking. It's goal is always to get back to Sauron and tries to find "victims" which will ultimately bring it back to Sauron.



Well I guess while I was typing my back up quotes - Wayfarer and Valandil beat me to the counter argument.

Yeah, doesn't Gandalf speak of how Isildur wrote that down about the Ring along with other information, how it burned his hand and would constantly change size and things like that...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yeah, doesn't Gandalf speak of how Isildur wrote that down about the Ring along with other information, how it burned his hand and would constantly change size and things like that...
yeah - that's in the Council of Elrond chapter - I just took the quotes from The Shadow of the Past chapter.

In the Council of Elrond...


"And after thse words isildur described the Ring, such as he found it.

It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read...

[Twista]

lol i just noticed someone has there own credit for speaking as the ring in the film, wonder if that got there break into stardom? lol

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Twista
lol i just noticed someone has there own credit for speaking as the ring in the film, wonder if that got there break into stardom? lol

Actually it wouldn't hurt, because by having those lines in the movie, that person is eligible to become a member of the Screen Actors Guild (SAG), which is a union for actors. So, if that person never acted in a movie before and only did those lines, those lines would set them up nicely for future work :D

[Forkbeard]

I want to say thanks to all those who posted here.

My take on the speaking Ring is that it isn't the Ring that speaks.

While I have many reasons for thinking thus, here are a few:

1) Nowhere does Tolkien prepare us to hear the Ring speak. As a good story teller, when inanimate objects speak, Tolkien either forshadows it, or explains it after the fact. Here he niether forshadoes nor explains....quite an oversight if the Ring is speaking. Further, in all the discussions of the Ring, and indeed of Rings of Power generally, speech is never mentioned as one of its strange powers.

2) the argument of the Ring's will is overblown....did the Ring truly sit down one day, stretch its gold a bit, and think, "You know, I'm tired of this Gollum chap, time to move on"? No, rather it "left" Gollum because its Master was calling it...i. e. it answered a summons much as a magnet answers when summoned by a stronger magnet. It doesn't have sentience.

3) I can not imagine a situation in which someone who is a slave to the Ring as Gollum is would deliberately disobey the Ring. If the Ring commanded Gollum to "Begone" I would expect that Gollum would obey, regardless of his desire. But if it is the Ring speaking than Gollum has disobeyed the thing that he is enslaved to, and that goes against everything Tolkien wrote about the Ring and Gollum.

4) Sam sees this with "other vision" So unless you believe that Frodo dropped trou and donned a white, shining robe and grew several inches suddenly and then shrank back down , it would seem to me that having the Ring speak means believing these things about Frodo. If the reader doesn't believe that Frodo suddenly changed clothes, but rather that Sam is seeing with :other vision" then it follows too that the voice out of the fire is also part of the "other vision" and should not be taken to mean that the Ring speaks.

While I have many more reasons, those are the key ones.

Again, many thanks to all who responded.

Forkbeard

[Nurvingiel]

What you say about the Ring not having sentience makes sense Forkbeard. When it left Gollum and went to Bilbo, it began a series of events that ultimately led to its destruction. I think a power greater than Sauron or the Ring had a hand in that, which Gandalf hints at in FotR.

[Artanis]

But Gandalf's words to Frodo in 'The shadow of the past' clearly suggest that the Ring do have a sentience:‘A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.’ The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur’s hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Déagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.Edit: Spelling errors.

[Forkbeard]

Hi Atanis,

No, I disagree that those passages indicate sentience. Sentience involves self awareness and the ability to think. Not even in Gandalf's words does he indicate that the ring is self aware or can plan things out.

As stated, the Ring "wants" to get back to Sauron. Does this indicate desire or nature? If desure, then the Ring is in some sentient, but if nature, then it isn't. That is to say, Sauron created the Ring, he transferred a good deal of himself and his power into the Ring. Thus, the Ring's nature is Sauron, like wants to join with like. Further, the moments when the Ring "acts" are interesting in this regard: the first time that Isildure WEARS the Ring, not just carries it, is at Gladden Fields--the removal from Sauron is still very recent, and the first time someone else trys to use it, and does not Master it, it slips off.
Think of it this way: Sauron is a magnet, the Ring is a chink off the original magnet, and the magentic pull of Sauron pulls the Ring to itself at every opportunity. The time when that pull is strongest is when the bearer of the Ring uses it. Thus Isildure lost the Ring and his life the first he uses it. Gollum lost the Ring while using it when Sauron's magnetic pull reasserts itself in Mirkwood. This isn't sentience, it is simply two parts of a whole drawing together, like a magnet. Sauron is sentient, there is no real indication that the Ring is.

And so to Gandalf's statements. Does Gandalf really mean to indicate that the Ring made decisions and made plans? It is in the nature of the Ring to protect itself. But sharks have that instinct too, but they are not sentient. It is in the nature of the Ring to return to Sauron: salmon return every year to their place of birth, but are not sentient. It is in the nature of the Ring to tempt and to twist human intent with its promise of power, but the Presidency does this as well, and the Presidency is not sentient itself. The current President may or may not be, but that's a different issue.

Thus, if we take Gandalf's words literally, there is still no need to attribute to the Ring sentience, self awareness, and deliberate planning.

Forkbeard

[Artanis]

Hi Forkbeard! :)

Perhaps I should not have used the word 'sentience', I may have put a wrong meaning into it, due to my limited knowledge of English. Let me try to elaborate.

I agree with what you say about Sauron and how he put his power into the Ring, and the attraction between those two, and the nature of the Ring. But I do also think that the Ring had capability to act by itself, not 'make plans' maybe, but certainly act without getting any clear 'orders' from its master, in order to reach its aim, to get back to Sauron. Gandalf says "A Ring of Power looks after itself", and "the Ring itself decided things", these are stronger statements than "The Ring was trying to get back to its master". I agree of course that the will of the Ring had its source in Sauron, but the Ring was still a separate entity, on its own.

[Dúnedain]

I agree with Artanis and that is how I have always read into things as well...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Artanis
I agree of course that the will of the Ring had its source in Sauron, but the Ring was still a seperate entity, on its own.
________________________________
Hello. Here's a slight bit of information that may be relevant to Artanis's view. In the somewhat dated
the complete guide to Middle-earth, Robert Foster says"
"Because of its great evil power, the Ring has curious properties. It possessed a certain amount of self-determination. Gandalf, who had wisdom in such matters, claimed that Bilbo found the Ring because it wanted to be found in order to be reunited with Sauron".

Perhaps the Ring's "sentience" is a property similar to the way I believe it has been speculated in some threads that dragons and such may have been imbued with some of Morgoth's essence to make them active. Is it that much of a stretch to imagine some of
Sauron's power (in the Ring) acting autonomously. From "Letters" #131: "Even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself", this quote seems to indicate a subsidiary power of Sauron in the Ring acting essentially intelligently on its own, but to the purpose of reuniting with Sauron. Speculative, of course.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Valandil
While, as Earniel says, it did shrink or grow to fit the finger of its bearer, I don't think it had control of the 'material' world around it. When it 'slipped off someone's finger' - it may have been due to the control it exerted over the mind of the bearer... causing them to 'slack off' a bit and without their notice, allow the Ring to slip away...

Plausible???

Well put; that's exactly what I meant. Although, as others have pointed out, the Ring did change sizes to fit the wearer, I don't know that was an "action" so much as just being an innate magical property of the Ring itself.

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
Elsewhere on the Net a discussion has raged on whether or not the Ring speaks. So I'd like to get comments and an unscientific poll of those present.

In RoTK, "Mount Doom", Frodo and Sam are on their way up the volcano when Gollum attacks them. Frodo beats Gollum off, tells him to get down, he can't do anything to Frodo now.

Then:

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire spoke a commanding voice.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

So whom do readers think is the speaker here, Frodo or the Ring?

Souds like Frodo to me

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
4) Sam sees this with "other vision" So unless you believe that Frodo dropped trou and donned a white, shining robe and grew several inches suddenly and then shrank back down , it would seem to me that having the Ring speak means believing these things about Frodo. If the reader doesn't believe that Frodo suddenly changed clothes, but rather that Sam is seeing with :other vision" then it follows too that the voice out of the fire is also part of the "other vision" and should not be taken to mean that the Ring speaks.

I cannot agree more.

The power of the ring is a power over mind and will. Here it is putting an image into Sam's mind and also it is forcing the will of Frodo to behave according to that image: speaking and acting as Lord of the Ring.

The ring has not a physical power. I'm not sure, but I think that when "it seems" to grow and to shrink may be due to the perception (influenced in the mind by the ring) of those that are seing it.

When it slips of a finger, may be also due to its power over the mind. Everyone that has worn a ring knows that some days it may slip easier than others because the fingers do grow and shrink. I suppose that is a reaction to weather or something like that, but I think that that reaction may be governed by our mind, and so the ring would have a chance to slip if our mind is not strong enough to control it.

[Nurvingiel]

Also, the Orc in the tower of Cirith Ungol thought Sam was a huge Elf lord. This was partly fueled by rumours about an Elf lord who stabbed Shelob, and the fact that the orc was already afraid. The Ring enhanced these fears.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Artanis
Hi Forkbeard! :)

Perhaps I should not have used the word 'sentience', I may have put a wrong meaning into it, due to my limited knowledge of English. Let me try to elaborate.

I agree with what you say about Sauron and how he put his power into the Ring, and the attraction between those two, and the nature of the Ring. But I do also think that the Ring had capability to act by itself, not 'make plans' maybe, but certainly act without getting any clear 'orders' from its master, in order to reach its aim, to get back to Sauron. Gandalf says "A Ring of Power looks after itself", and "the Ring itself decided things", these are stronger statements than "The Ring was trying to get back to its master". I agree of course that the will of the Ring had its source in Sauron, but the Ring was still a separate entity, on its own.

Ok, I can live with this, but then it seems to me that one can not argue that the Ring can speak.

Forkbeard

[matthew]

I'm thinking it was Frodo speaking, with the Ring enhancing his voice. The Ring, if it did have vocal cords, would certainly not have made such a bizzare announcement.:D (although it definitely did change sizes to slip off of fingers)

[Forkbeard]

Mattthew,

I have to say that that is my take as well. I have no problems with the Ring seeming to grow larger or smaller or slipping off fingers. I do have a problem with the Ring making speeches.

This thread was begun mostly to see how people felt about it. Originally, elsewhere on the Net I had a one-sided discussion with someone who claims that it was the Ring that spoke and that that was the only possible interpretation: anything else was rewriting Tolkien.

So once again I want to thank everyone who responded.

Forkbeard

[ethuiliel]

I think it was sort of the Ring speaking through Frodo, but not quite. Frodo was completly under the control of the Ring at this point, so it wasn't Frodo speaking as he would normally, but still Frodo speaking.
Does that make any sense?

[Dúnedain]

Maybe it was a glimpse of what someone would be like if they could wield the ring to their own power. If they could overcome the ring and wield it through themselves, you know how it was always spoken about. Maybe in this one instance, Frodo was able to master it and will the ring to himself...

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Maybe it was a glimpse of what someone would be like if they could wield the ring to their own power. If they could overcome the ring and wield it through themselves, you know how it was always spoken about. Maybe in this one instance, Frodo was able to master it and will the ring to himself...

Yes, just so. I think among many other things that this episode is all but the last step in Frodo's decline and in his claiming the Ring as "his" which fully happens in the very next scene. So I think your suggestion here right on the money.