The Seven Rings of the Dwarves

[Nurvingiel]

What happened to the seven Dwarf rings? I believe it was Gandalf who said they were all lost or destroyed.

I think Gandalf also said that Thráin II (?) had the last Dwarf ring, but he was too late to save him from the dungeons of Dol Guldur. (According to the appendecies, Gandalf went there in TA 2063, but they do not mention the Dwarf ring.)

Do we know anything about them? Only the One Ring and the Elven Rings are named, as far as I know.

Also, why did Sauron not make nine for the Dwarves as well? The Elves made their own rings, but Sauron made the rings for Dwarves and Men - why the different amounts?

Also, why were the Men corrupted by the rings, while the Dwarves were not? Did they reject Sauron's rule, and were consequently attacked (leading to the loss or destruction of the rings)?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Wayfarer]

What happened to the seven Dwarf rings? I believe it was Gandalf who said they were all lost or destroyed.

Some of the rings were destroyed when the wearers were eaten by dragons, and some of them were lost, such as Thrains which sauron recovered.

Also, why did Sauron not make nine for the Dwarves as well? The Elves made their own rings, but Sauron made the rings for Dwarves and Men - why the different amounts? Sauron didn't make the rings. The elves did. The Sixteen were made by them under Sauron's teaching, the three were made soley by the elven-smiths, and the one was made soley by sauron. The reason the sixteen were given out as they were is that (I think) there were seven kings of the dwarf kingdoms.

However, it might have been that that was just how things worked out. The Nazgul were likely 'converted' one at a time, over a period of years or centuries, and it's possible that it wasn't by any plan that the numbers worked out how they did.

Also, why were the Men corrupted by the rings, while the Dwarves were not? Did they reject Sauron's rule, and were consequently attacked (leading to the loss or destruction of the rings)? Because the dwarves were deliberately constructed in such a way as to be immune to coercion or domination, the rings could not control them the way they could men or elves. However, they did ignite a lust for gold (which was probably already present, and only inflamed) and it was this lust for gold which seems to have lead to Thrain's death, so it is possible the rings indirectly contributed to the downfall of the other bearers as well.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
What happened to the seven Dwarf rings? I believe it was Gandalf who said they were all lost or destroyed.

I think Gandalf also said that Thráin II (?) had the last Dwarf ring, but he was too late to save him from the dungeons of Dol Guldur. (According to the appendecies, Gandalf went there in TA 2063, but they do not mention the Dwarf ring.)

Do we know anything about them? Only the One Ring and the Elven Rings are named, as far as I know.

Also, why did Sauron not make nine for the Dwarves as well? The Elves made their own rings, but Sauron made the rings for Dwarves and Men - why the different amounts?

Also, why were the Men corrupted by the rings, while the Dwarves were not? Did they reject Sauron's rule, and were consequently attacked (leading to the loss or destruction of the rings)?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

The Rings for each race had different effects. For the Men it was for evil purposes and to corrupt them through that. For the Dwarves it was the corruption of the riches of the world that they loved. In fact there is a passage that implies that is the reason why they delved too deep in Moria in which they awoke the Balrog and that was the plan/hope that Sauron had for them...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Also, why did Sauron not make nine for the Dwarves as well? The Elves made their own rings, but Sauron made the rings for Dwarves and Men - why the different amounts?I think Sauron gave rings to the most powerful of Men and Dwarves, and it just happened to be 7 powerful Dwarf Lords and 9 powerful Kings and Lords of Men around.Also, why were the Men corrupted by the rings, while the Dwarves were not? Did they reject Sauron's rule, and were consequently attacked (leading to the loss or destruction of the rings)?I think the rings had the ability to enhance the 'bad' sides and desires of their owners, just like the One Ring. Thus with Men the rings enhanced the lust for power, and with the Dwarves the rings enhanced the lust for gold and riches. The Dwarves indeed withstood the rings much better than Men, but their greediness caused enough evil for Sauron to profit on.

[Anglorfin]

A dwarf would never become a wraith if that is what you are thinking. As Wayfarer says, dwarves were created during dark times and therefor were made to be stout, hearty, and resistant to another's dominion. Nobody could bend their will to his/her own, though I imagine they would have fought for whoever offered the most gold or spoil. SO in some small way they could still be manipulated.

As far as owning a ring no physical effects were ever seen, but a few accounts sem to suggest that it did waken a more fierce lust for gold. Also Sauron began taking the Dwarven rings back, as he did from Thrain because he must have known that they were inneffective for the most part, or at least not at all what he desired them to be.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I think Gandalf also said that Thráin II (?) had the last Dwarf ring, but he was too late to save him from the dungeons of Dol Guldur. (According to the appendecies, Gandalf went there in TA 2063, but they do not mention the Dwarf ring.)


BTW, for the historical part, 2063 was the FIRST time it's mentioned that Gandalf went to Dol Guldor - and on that occasion, it caused Sauron to flee into the east. Gandalf made a subsequent visit much later (2841?), which was when he found Thrain, heard that his ring had been taken, and was given the map of Erebor. Gandalf finding Thrain was 'happenstance'... he went, I believe, because the Wise suspected Sauron had returned to Dol Guldor.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
The Rings for each race had different effects. For the Men it was for evil purposes and to corrupt them through that. For the Dwarves it was the corruption of the riches of the world that they loved. In fact there is a passage that implies that is the reason why they delved too deep in Moria in which they awoke the Balrog and that was the plan/hope that Sauron had for them...


Actually, I believe that Sauron wished to dominate the dwarves but all the Rings did was enflame their lust for gold. It did not enslave them to Sauron. And because they proved so hardy, Sauron hated them all the more. From the Unfinished Tales I think.

Oh, there were seven houses of the dwarves (from the seven original dwarf fathers) and therefore seven dwarf kings, and so seven dwarf rings.

Three I believe were recovered by Sauron, the other four destroyed or eaten by dragons. Also from the Unfinished Tales (If my memory is right)

[Thorin II]

Does anyone know what the rings actually did for the Dwarves? I know they imbued "power" to their wearers, but I don't know how this power manifested itself.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Because the dwarves were deliberately constructed in such a way as to be immune to coercion or domination, the rings could not control them the way they could men or elves. However, they did ignite a lust for gold (which was probably already present, and only inflamed) and it was this lust for gold which seems to have lead to Thrain's death, so it is possible the rings indirectly contributed to the downfall of the other bearers as well. What he said. ;) They must have done something else, otherwise, why would the Dwarves use them?

[Wayfarer]

The did. They had the power to make (or rather breed) gold. So it's sort of a loss for Sauron that the rings he gave them stir up a lust for gold and then provide them with a way to satisfy that desire without causing any problems.

This is probably why the dwarf rings were all lost or destroyed. ;) I think sauron had something to do with that.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks Wayfarer! A lot of unfortunate events did befall the Dwarves. They could be the subject of a Lemony Snicket book. :D

Sauron really could have got them hooked by making a mithril breeding ring.

[Wayfarer]

I don't think any craft of man or elf could have made mithril- it was certainly beyond Sauron's power, the way he went hunting for the stuff.

[Dúnedain]

And for a key point remember what Galadriel says to Gimli when she gives him a gift:

The Fellowship of the Ring; Farewell to Lórien:

Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli's hand. 'These words shall go with the gift,' she said. 'I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on the one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hope. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Glóin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.'

That was a statement made directed to his forefathers who bore the Dwarf Rings and those around them where gold held dominion over them...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The did. They had the power to make (or rather breed) gold. So it's sort of a loss for Sauron that the rings he gave them stir up a lust for gold and then provide them with a way to satisfy that desire without causing any problems.

This is probably why the dwarf rings were all lost or destroyed. ;) I think sauron had something to do with that.

I doubt the dwarves' acquisition of gold satisfied their lust for it though... it probably only inflamed it all the more!:)

[Nurvingiel]

And that seems to be what Sauron intended when he gave them the Rings.

[Attalus]

I agree with Azalea and those who posted that Sauron gave the rings to the seven chiefs of the Dwarves hoping that he could dominate them as he did the Nine, but his plan failed. The explanation of what the Dwarf-rings did is, as Wayfarer posted, they "bred gold." How they did this is open for conjecture, but my thought it was a kind of sympathetic magic, allowing them to find hidden treasures and veins of ore.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Valandil
I doubt the dwarves' acquisition of gold satisfied their lust for it though... it probably only inflamed it all the more!:) That is all any lust ever does. Montaigne wrote that even if one has a considerable amount of money, it never seems enough, and one's mind goes into possible scenarios where one might get into difficulties and need more.

[Dúnedain]

See I was correct above about Sauron's wishes with the Dwarven rings!

Tuor posted this in another thread:

Silmarillion: Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age,

"They used the rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts,
of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron."

Surely, Sauron intended some malice to come other than the dwarves greed of riches, I am sure he wanted that greed to carry them into "deeper and darker" places of the world, thus awaking certain evils, as was his plan, in my opinion...

[Nurvingiel]

It comes up in the appendicies that it might have been Sauron's plan all along for the Dwarves to awaken (or free, Sauron's malice could already have awoken) the Balrog. Everything seemed to go downhill for the Dwarves after that.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding of what happened. All of the Rings were made by the Elves for the Elves to ward off the effects of time. Sauron desguised as Annatar in fair form, aided Celebrimber in the making of all the Rings of power but for the last three that Celebrimbor forged in secret and Sauron had never touched them. All the while, Sauron was forging the One Ring in secret and then he stole all the others. When Celebrimbor relized finally what was going on, he hid the Three. Sauron killed him, and captured the other Rings. Under the power of the One Ring, the others effected their wearers by appealing to their desires. For Men, it was power, for Dwarves, it was wealth. While Sauron posessed the One Ring, the Three Elven Rings were taken off and hidden. They were never corrupted by the One, but they were still tied to it, so at the distruction of the One, the Three became powerless, and all that was built with them in time would fade.

[Wayfarer]

Actually, Celebrimbor hid the Three when Sauron first put on the ring (because he was aware of his thoughts) and then Sauron went to war and destroyed Eregion in the process of getting the rest back.

[Thorin II]

I'm still curious to know what powers were granted by the rings of the Dwarves. Does anyone know?

While we're on the subject, did the One Ring cause Sauron to become invisible? It seems to me that it didn't (especially since that would've made it nearly impossible for Isildur to cut off his finger), but I'm not sure. If not, why not?

[Wayfarer]

The one ring only causes mortals to become invisible. Was Sauron a mortal?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The one ring only causes mortals to become invisible. Was Sauron a mortal? So, an Elf wouldn't become invisible if they put on the One Ring?

[Attalus]

Since apparently all the Rings had similar effects on different races, (i.e., both the One Ring and the Nine made men - and Hobbits!- invisible), and since Vilya did not make Galadriel invisible, nor Narya Elrond, nor Vanya Gandalf, (not that he was an Elf) I would think that if an Elf wore the One Ring, (mirable dictu!), they would not become invisible.

[Nurvingiel]

As far as I know, Sauron is the only immortal person to wear the One Ring. But since he made it, I'm sure it has only the effects that he desires when he's wearing it.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The one ring only causes mortals to become invisible. Was Sauron a mortal?

The way I understood it was that it would only turn those invisible who could not bend it to their will, mortal or not. If they can bend it to their will, then they could use the power of the One Ring, but if they cannot, then they become invisible...

That was my understanding of it anyway...

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Attalus
Since apparently all the Rings had similar effects on different races, (i.e., both the One Ring and the Nine made men - and Hobbits!- invisible), and since Vilya did not make Galadriel invisible, nor Narya Elrond, nor Vanya Gandalf, (not that he was an Elf) I would think that if an Elf wore the One Ring, (mirable dictu!), they would not become invisible.

Elrond had Vilya, Galadriel had Nenya, and Gandalf had Narya

A Vanya is an elf of the first house to go to Valino, Ingwe's people...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Elrond had Vilya, Galadriel had Nenya, and Gandalf had Narya

A Vanya is an elf of the first house to go to Valino, Ingwe's people... Um, I think it was a typo FF.:p

[Valandil]

And the seven dwarven rings went to...

Wasn't it: Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sneezy, Sleepy, Bashful and Dopey?:D

Uh... which one of those was from the line of Durin?;)

[Falagar]

My guess is Grumpy. One may start to wonder what they used the rings for (perhaps that's why the mountain next to them was filled with diamounds?).

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Um, I think it was a typo FF.:p Oops, my bad. I was working fast and away from home.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
The way I understood it was that it would only turn those invisible who could not bend it to their will, mortal or not. If they can bend it to their will, then they could use the power of the One Ring, but if they cannot, then they become invisible...

That was my understanding of it anyway...

That makes sense. Expanding on that, I would think Sauron (or another who could bend the Ring to their will) would be ABLE to be invisible, but would not necessarily have to do so.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there are seven houses of dwarves,
three reside in the west of middle earth,
the forkbeards are durin's folk
seven rings were 1 for the king of each house
the rings each breed a DIFFERENT gem or metal, only thrain's ring was the breeder of gold, and was therefore the one held in highest esteem, being given to the leading house of dwarves

hope this helps a bit!!

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
there are seven houses of dwarves,
three reside in the west of middle earth,
the forkbeards are durin's folk
seven rings were 1 for the king of each house
the rings each breed a DIFFERENT gem or metal, only thrain's ring was the breeder of gold, and was therefore the one held in highest esteem, being given to the leading house of dwarves

hope this helps a bit!!

LCoU... where is that info from? I thought we're told that ALL the dwarven rings would find gold? Or is that additional info in some of the HoME material (I've only scratched that surface!).

But weren't Durin's Folk the Longbeards? :)

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe your getting confused by our RPG Chrys! :D (Rorin is a Forkbeard.)

I think all the Ring's were lost or destroyed. Thrain (I think) was captured and taken to Dol Gulder; his ring was the last remaining and was lost there. Gandalf tried to save him but was too late.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

hmmm, longbeard is probably it, dont worry though, im always getting confused :D

but i definitely read somewhere that the rings breed diferent things...

i think sauron had recovered 3, the other 4 being, errm ...taken... , by dragons, of course i may be wrong again