did sam go to Valinor???

[matthew]

After reading the LotR, one of my biggest questions has been if sam did go to valinor. I mean, tolkien didnt leave much hanging, but the only clue was frodo mysteriously saying " your time may come". so for a long time I had no idea. but now,after finishing the war of the ring, i feel like tolkiens intended epilogue did imply sams eventual departure. But i still want to hear everyone elses opinion on this.

[Wayfarer]

Yes.

[Arien the Maia]

yeah he went to Tol Eressea after he had been mayor of the Shire for like the 7th time or something like that....I think the Appendices explain it better than I did:p

[matthew]

the appendices say???
I never saw that!!!
Im opening my copy of ROTK as i type!
ohh goodie!

[matthew]

Dang it your right he did.
and its right in the tale of years too. i must have read that at some point.
oh the embarrasment. :rolleyes:

[Attalus]

LOL, don't wrry. On a board like this, you'll see all of us commit some howlers. ;)

[Thorin II]

As long as we're on the subject, what happens to mortals that go west? I assume Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam all died eventually. Is that right?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Thorin II
As long as we're on the subject, what happens to mortals that go west? I assume Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam all died eventually. Is that right?

Yes...all mortals that go west...which is basically only the ringbearers and Gimli will die b/c that is their fate. The one Man who went West was Tuor and I believe Iluvatar allowed him to be joined with the Eldar b/c of his love for them and for his wife Idril.

For Frodo,bilbo and sam the passage west was for healing and they eventually died...note that they never set foot upon Aman but stayed in Tol Eressea only.

[Thorin II]

Thanks, Arien. That's what I thought.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Thanks, Arien. That's what I thought.

sure! anytime!:)

[LutraMage]

I wonder if Smeagol had survived, would he have been allowed to 'go west' and would he have healed?

[Wayfarer]

He, at least, seems to think he would have died instantly when the ring was destroyed.

[Thorin II]

I suspect Gollum would've died after the Ring was destroyed (immediately or shortly thereafter). Even if he hadn't, I doubt he would've been allowed to sail West. While he was technically a Ringbearer, I think the term is intended to refer to those who carried the Ring on the quest to destroy it. Bilbo didn't exactly do so, but he did bring the Ring to the Shire and pass the Ring to Frodo to start the process.

[gimli7410]

Originally posted by Thorin II
As long as we're on the subject, what happens to mortals that go west? I assume Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam all died eventually. Is that right?


gimli ruled the caves of helms deep and became the lord of the glittering caves. and i know sam went to grey havens cuz he was once a ring bearer.

[Wayfarer]

As long as we're on the subject, what happens to mortals that go west? I assume Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam all died eventually. Is that right? They 'burn out' and die quickly (though they certainly enjoy themselves in the meantime.)

[matthew]

I'm a gollum redemption fan. he should've gone west anyway.
I thought the saddesst part of pjs movie of TT was sam abusing gollum when he was so close to recovery. BooHoo.

[Dúnedain]

There is more to it as well, this is from the Appendices:

In year 61 of the 4th age:
Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

In year 120 of the 4th age:
In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a greay ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over the Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.

[Ulmo]

About the Ringbearers and Gimli dying:

Letter 154

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world.

Letter 246

'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Letter 325

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

[trolls' bane]

Wow. Wish I knew that. Where do people get those letters any way, are they in some sort of book?

[Shadowfax]

troll's bane:

the letters are compiled into one volume called "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" (hehe what else would it be called?:p ) and you can buy it in bookstores/online. If your bookstore doesn't have it I bet if you asked they could order it for you. (that's what I had to do):)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by trolls' bane
Wow. Wish I knew that. Where do people get those letters any way, are they in some sort of book?

Go here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618056998/qid=1075254735//ref=pd_ka_1/002-6645669-4139219?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Gamigar]

Originally posted by matthew
After reading the LotR, one of my biggest questions has been if sam did go to valinor. I mean, tolkien didnt leave much hanging, but the only clue was frodo mysteriously saying " your time may come". so for a long time I had no idea. but now,after finishing the war of the ring, i feel like tolkiens intended epilogue did imply sams eventual departure. But i still want to hear everyone elses opinion on this.

Yes sir, yes sir he did.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Gamigar
Yes sir, yes sir he did.
Yes, isn't it in the Appendicies? Sam gives the Red Book of Westmarch to Elanor and goes into the West, I think.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Yes, isn't it in the Appendicies? Sam gives the Red Book of Westmarch to Elanor and goes into the West, I think.

Yes and it's posted earlier in this thread :D

Here is what I posted:

There is more to it as well, this is from the Appendices:

In year 61 of the 4th age:
Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

In year 120 of the 4th age:
In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a greay ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over the Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.

[Elvengirl]

While on the subject, where does Tolkien say that the spirit goes once their bodies die? Does he explain the idea of Heaven?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
While on the subject, where does Tolkien say that the spirit goes once their bodies die? Does he explain the idea of Heaven?

well in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien sort of tells that Men's spirits go to be with Iluvatar after they die (in the tale of Adanel which is in the Athrabeth). since Hobbits are a race of Men (I'm pretty sure) then that's where their souls would go too. As far as Dwarves go, I think that they believe that they stay in Mandos until the end of the world and then they help aule rebuild the earth.

[Nimbrethil]

But my biggest question is: If all "the ring owner" (like we say at germany) meeting again at Valinor?
When Gimli and Legolas arrive this land - Frodo, Bilbo and Sam too, were deap lond time.
in case Frodo became a longer life ... then he could meet Legolas and Gimli.

Nimbrethil
I´m sorry about my english - i think many mistakes... *lol*

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Nimbrethil
But my biggest question is: If all "the ring owner" (like we say at germany) meeting again at Valinor?
When Gimli and Legolas arrive this land - Frodo, Bilbo and Sam too, were deap lond time.
in case Frodo became a longer life ... then he could meet Legolas and Gimli.

Nimbrethil
I´m sorry about my english - i think many mistakes... *lol*

that's ok...I think thtat anyone who can speak 2 languages is awesome:D (I myself can speak a little french but not enough)

anyways...I don't think that any of the mortal ringbears could ever set foot upon aman (valinor) they were confined to Tol Eressea.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
that's ok...I think thtat anyone who can speak 2 languages is awesome:D (I myself can speak a little french but not enough)

anyways...I don't think that any of the mortal ringbears could ever set foot upon aman (valinor) they were confined to Tol Eressea.

Tuor did :D

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Tuor did :D

true, but didn't Iluvatar allow him to be joined with the Eldar? If that is true, then why couldn't Iluvatar have done that with all the Men who loved the elves???:confused:

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
true, but didn't Iluvatar allow him to be joined with the Eldar? If that is true, then why couldn't Iluvatar have done that with all the Men who loved the elves???:confused:

Yes he was allowed to be one of the Eldar Race, however he was still technically a mortal, I just wanted to disprove your point :p

I believe Iluvatar allowed Tuor, mainly because of everything he did for the Eldar and for his close tie to Ulmo. Plus, the arguement could be made that Tuor was the most important Man in the history of Men to help achieve the path Iluvatar wanted for them. With that said, Tuor was really the father of the Kings of Men. In addition, his marriage with Idril helped as well and if it wasn't for her, Tuor would not have gone into the West to begin with, as he didn't want to, but did so for her...

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yes he was allowed to be one of the Eldar Race, however he was still technically a mortal, I just wanted to disprove your point :p

I believe Iluvatar allowed Tuor, mainly because of everything he did for the Eldar and for his close tie to Ulmo. Plus, the arguement could be made that Tuor was the most important Man in the history of Men to help achieve the path Iluvatar wanted for them. With that said, Tuor was really the father of the Kings of Men. In addition, his marriage with Idril helped as well and if it wasn't for her, Tuor would not have gone into the West to begin with, as he didn't want to, but did so for her...

:D point proven:p

wouldn't he have just withered away there becasue of the difference in his fea compared to the fear of Elves? did Idril know that she married a man and not an elf? I mean what WAS she thinking:rolleyes: :D

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
:D point proven:p

wouldn't he have just withered away there becasue of the difference in his fea compared to the fear of Elves? did Idril know that she married a man and not an elf? I mean what WAS she thinking:rolleyes: :D

She knew but, when their eyes first met they fell for each other and built from there, much to the dislike of Maeglin. He wouldn't have withered, because he was given immortality upon setting foot in the West. My only point was that he "technically" was a mortal in the sense of being born as one, but literally speaking, while there he was granted immortality :D

With that said, we are both "technically" right :p

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
She knew but, when their eyes first met they fell for each other and built from there, much to the dislike of Maeglin. He wouldn't have withered, because he was given immortality upon setting foot in the West. My only point was that he "technically" was a mortal in the sense of being born as one, but literally speaking, while there he was granted immortality :D

With that said, we are both "technically" right :p

ok truce :D

[matthew]

Hey. I speak 2 languages: english and quenya. (polin quete quenya????????) i'm not very good of course.