Why didnt Frodo.....

[Twista]

Firsty, id just like to say i love the books and films as much as anyone and i dont think anything should be changed, however..

I was thinking if Gandalf was such a clever person, why didnt he just get one of his eagle friends, set Frodo off on one of them. and then as they flew over The Mountain of Fire Frodo could just throw the ring into the mountain? lol. It wouldnt have saved alot of death and not what. Wouldnt of left much of a story though would it? lol

[Valandil]

Mmmmm... some have wondered about this before. I forget which threads. I think the general consensus is that (apart from having a story:) ) the eagles didn't really see themselves as a 'Middle-Earth Taxi Service'. There may have been other problems: What happens if the Eagle gets Frodo there and THEN Frodo decides he doesn't want to throw The Ring in? Or - what if the Eagle is spotted (a bit hard to hide in the air) and Mordor makes every effort to stop it?

For whatever reasons, the Council of Elrond concluded this was a problem that needed to be solved by the Free Peoples of Middle Earth: Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits.

And, btw... welcome!:)

[Twista]

ok 'Taxi Service' lol. You'd think they do everyone this one favour.

- Elrond is too logisical, 1000's would have lived if they'd done this.

- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment

- and Gandalf should have gone with him to make sure he got the job done lol.


BUT... i guess this is all irrevant, lol, as at the end of the day it would tarnish a great story.

[Attalus]

This has been discussed many times and the consensus is, IIRC, that the Eagle would have been spotted by one of Sauron's spies, if not the Nazgûl. Then, once Sauron realised that the Ringbearer was on board, the whole gaff would have been blown, and he would have put a guard in the Sammath Naur, defeating the whole Quest. Remember, secrecy was key, and an Eagle in Mordor would have been highly visible. They were not small birds.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Twista
- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment And, are you sure there's enough air up there to breathe and fly in? Frodo, at least, would freeze to death probably.

What does IIRC mean by the way?

I'm sure everyone's cpmtemplated this at some point - I did anyway. I've never been in a thread about it though.

Welcome to the Moot. :)

[Thorin II]

I've wondered about this, too. I like to think Tolkien had a better reason than just "it makes a better story" to have the Quest.

The answer that's always seemed best to me is the one suggested by Attalus: an eagle would draw the gaze of Sauron and would be intercepted before the Ring could be destroyed.

In a similar vein, it's always bothered me that Frodo ended up being the Ringbearer. As much as Elrond prefers a small company (for secrecy), wouldn't Glorfindel have been better equipped to fulfill the Quest? Surely, he would've had less trouble with some of the roadblocks that nearly sunk Frodo (Shelob, various orcs, etc.).

To that end, my thought has always been that hobbits were resilient to the power of the Ring, in part because their nature prevented them from being seduced by power. Glorfindel (or any other lord-type individual) would not have been able to resist the Ring long enough to complete the Quest. Is that pretty much the consensus?

[Nurvingiel]

Glorfindel would have been a good member of the company, but not as the Ringbearer himself. Hobbits resist the Ring better than Elves, Men or Dwarves.

[The Gaffer]

Very good question, and it's also good that Tolkien doesn't answer it.

I think the key is in the "free peoples" comment Valandil made. The eagles did not do what people asked; they intervened when they (or Manwe) decided that they should. As servants of Manwe, it wasn't their role to decide the fate of Middle-Earth. Remember that the Wizards were limited in how they could deploy their powers? It was up to the Free Peoples to deal with it, which is kind of the whole point of the story.

You could also ask why the Powers would not allow the Ring to be sent over the Sea for safe keeping; the answer would be similar.

[Beor]

I know that this probably isnt relative but if I was an eagle and I carried Frodo all the way to Orodruin, and then he dediced he wanted to keep the ring, I would just thrown them both in.

In regards to the topic, I think The Gaffer hit it when he mentioned that the eagles were servants of Manwe, and of course Manwe isnt going to help, hell, it took the Valar the entire first age before they helped with Morgoth.

[Draken]

I think just about everyone wonders about this at some time! I like the suggestion that the eagles should be regarded as almost a neutral force of nature rather than a potential ally.

On the practicalities side, flying into a Mordor still run by Sauron at the height of his powers would I'm sure be very hazardous, mostly down to the Nazgul.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Beor
In regards to the topic, I think The Gaffer hit it when he mentioned that the eagles were servants of Manwe, and of course Manwe isnt going to help, hell, it took the Valar the entire first age before they helped with Morgoth. The Valar already helped the free people of ME by sending the Istari. Manwe himself chose Gandalf, as written in UT. I can't see a reason why Manwe wouldn't want to dfestroy the Ring, if it was possible, in the easiest way. There was probably something else there.

The first age was shorter than the time between the beginning of the third to 'The Great Years'.

orioginally posted by Twista
- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment
It doesn't mean the Eye of Sauron won't see them.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I think the key is in the "free peoples" comment Valandil made. The eagles did not do what people asked; they intervened when they (or Manwe) decided that they should. As servants of Manwe, it wasn't their role to decide the fate of Middle-Earth. Remember that the Wizards were limited in how they could deploy their powers? It was up to the Free Peoples to deal with it, which is kind of the whole point of the story.

Good point, the eagles would aid when they saw fit but they can hardly be expected to do all the hard work by themselves.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Good point, the eagles would aid when they saw fit but they can hardly be expected to do all the hard work by themselves. Would it really be hard work for them? To fly a hobbit from Gondor to Mordor?

[Wayfarer]

It would have been a trip of several thousand miles by air. On top of that, it would have been a suicide mission without much chance of success.

I think I can see why they wouldn't have.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
It would have been a trip of several thousand miles by air.
No it wouldn't. I'm not talking here about a trip from the Misty Mountains to Mordor - which is proabbly thousand miles - I' talking about Gondor. Not more than 250 miles, I think - from Minas Tirith to Orodruin.

I do agree, though, they can't just get into Moirdor and thrwo the ring.

[Twista]

Well if the Valar interviene at important points (destruction of Melkor). Then even if Sauron took the ring, and had ultimate power, would the valar not interviene at this point?

[brownjenkins]

i've always believed that elrond and gandalf knew that no one, including themselves, or any hobbit, could willingly toss the ring into mount doom (i discussed this a bit in a recent isildur thread)

just look at frodo's revulsion when gandalf tosses the ring in his fireplace at the beginning of the series... they knew some greater power (fate, the valar, whatever) had to move events in a way that would bring about the ring's destruction

so, for the most part, they let events take their own course... frodo made his own choices, gollum was left alive, gandalf didn't immediately track down frodo when he returned as the white... instead of trying to control the ring's destiny, which probably would have lead to their own corruption, they were content playing a part in the events of the time, but letting fate decide the ring's ultimate destiny

[azalea]

My thoughts are along the lines of what others have said in this vein, that there are varied reasons such as:
1. The Eagles are really their own race, apart from the Free Peoples, and thus are not as concerned with their dealings as one might hope. Their rescues in LotR have more to do with a loyalty to Gandalf and to act when called upon by the side of good than an active presence in the world of elves, dwarves, and men.
2. The Valar were no longer taking a physically active role in the governing of ME. As servants of Manwe, the Eagles are bound by this.
3. Who's to say the Eagle carrying Frodo might not have become tempted through his proximity to the Ring, as Boromir and Galadriel were?
4. Regarding the question of why the Valar wouldn't have used the Eagles to help the Free Peoples by taking the Ring, I think the main reason is the sacred adherence to Freewill. The Valar realized that in order for the world to succeed, it must be governed by its inhabitants, and that Freewill is so important that it must be strictly enforced, so to speak (poor choice of words,but I can't think of the phrase I needed). That means that, like Gandalf, the Eagles cannot intervene unless absolutely necessary, (and they even less so, since Gandalf was sent for the very purpose of helping). It must be done by one of the Children. You know, the Ents are similar. They end up helping for a critical moment to turn the tide, and then are removed from the action.


Regarding whether the Valar would help if things turned out badly, or why they don't help: apart from the Freewill thing I mentioned, I say -- maybe they were! We don't know what kind of influence there was from outside Arda. They might have somehow influenced events in ways that ensured that each being would have freewill in his choices, but also aided the beings once their choice had been made. For instance, you could say in some ways that ending up in the Barrow Downs helped, since it was there that Merry got the sword that helped kill the Witch King. Who's to say that the Valar didn't either cause them to end up in the mound, or that they were the ones that strengthened Frodo's heart, so that he then made the choice to do what he did, which in turn strengthened his own character, not because of what they did, but because of his own view of what he had done.
If that makes any sense. IOW, their influence could either have been event-based, but hidden and subtle, or it could have been an influence on the spirit of the characters themselves. Like Gandalf lit fires within their hearts, the Valar could have had a similar influence, and still have kept the integrity of each being's free will. They would kindle the hearts, and give the character strength, then the character would be able to endure whatever hardship he was experiencing, and have the presence of mind to make an heroic choice. Or once the character had chosen a direction, the Valar may have influenced events to the advantage of the character. Who knows, it's just a theory.:)

[Twista]

a very intersting theory at that. What i can't seem to get my head around is that then why did they choose to interviene with Melkor then? Why not leave that to the frre peoples of that time?

[Attalus]

Because Eärendil appeared with one of the Silmarils and pled with them, don'tya know?
But the Host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.

[ryttu3k]

Okay, let's say that an eagle would carry Frodo. What if it was several eagles - different shifts, so to speak? You'd get greater speed due to less fatigue, and the tempting nature of the ring would be reduced.

Also, it would be a lot quicker by the eagle flies as opposed to as the Hobbit walks. Since it took less time, would Frodo really feel the pull of the ring the same?

And if he didn't want to let go of the ring, I s'pose the eagle could just drop him in, like Beor said ^_^

...But if Frodo DID get to Mordor by eagle, a lot of events that should have happened, wouldn't have. Hmmm.

[LOTR2004]

I completely agree - I always thought that
It would have been a whole lot easier!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by LOTR2004
Eagles
I completely agree - I always thought that
It would have been a whole lot easier!
________________________________

At first I considered that, but, aside from making a rather short story:), check out Azalea's very good reasoning above. Also, it would seem to have been quite possible that Sauron had several forms of early warning systems, general lookouts, scouts, guards, etc. all around the Ered Lithui and Ephel Duath with some nazgul probably minutes or seconds away. Sort of like the U.S. cold war nuclear attack early warning stations in northern Canada. And Sauron's constant searching, with or without the palantir (no sleepy time, I think), probably routinely "swept" the areas, land and air, around Mordor.
Still, it always did seem odd that there wasn't even a token guard on Mount Doom.

[Twista]

there you go then.... on an average dicision, the eagles should have done it lol.

[Thorin II]

I would think it'd be impossible to get the Ring to the Crack of Doom if Sauron had any kind of warning (and if an eagle or several eagles helped, I think they'd be easy to spot). Once he knew they were coming, he could defend Mount Doom with all matter of evil nasties. I imagine he could seal off the Crack of Doom, too. The whole point is that Sauron never considered that the free peoples would try to destroy the Ring; in order for it to work, secrecy was essential.

[Nurvingiel]

The reason Sam and Frodo were able to reach Mount Doom (which didn't even have a guard) was because Sauron didn't expect anyone to destroy it. If he was to spot the Eagle, he might realize what was going on. Gandalf said if he concentrated his will on defending Mordor and finding the Ring, they wouldn't have had a chance.

[Twista]

Surely it must have been somewhere on his mind... He obviously saw them and heard of them moving closer and closer to Mordor. AND he knew, they wouldnt be able to weild its power against him, so what did he acually think they were going to use it for?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Twista
Surely it must have been somewhere on his mind... He obviously saw them and heard of them moving closer and closer to Mordor. AND he knew, they wouldnt be able to weild its power against him, so what did he acually think they were going to use it for?

I think he thought, by that time, that Aragorn, or Gandalf, or a great Elven Lord or some other great leader actually held the Ring and was going to wield it in combat against him. I think he feared for the outcome there - that if the one wielding the Ring was of sufficient will power, they might be able to sway his own armies against him...

[Thorin II]

Valandil - that was my understanding, too. I think that's a big part of why Sauron feared Aragorn; Sauron knew Aragorn was strong enough to challenge him with the Ring. Incidentally, you have the coolest avatar I've seen so far...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Valandil - ... Incidentally, you have the coolest avatar I've seen so far...

Thanks Thorin! I'm not so gifted though... it was a 'Christmas present' from 'brownjenkins'... he said they were slow that time of year, and I was without an avatar...:) (thanks again, bj!)

[Dúnedain]

Yes exactly, Sauron did fear that Aragorn could wield it and use the Ring against him, especially after they struggled with one another in the Palantir and knowing now for sure that Aragorn was Isildur's Heir. It also helped the cause the Pippin looked into the palantir previously, making it seem like he was the Ringbearer at the time...

[brownjenkins]

you're welcome again Valandil :)

[azalea]

I think the argument regarding the eagles being too easily spotted in Mordor is valid, but I would still stress that it goes beyond that. Okay, if not to Mt. Doom, how about just to Lothlorien? Or at least just over Caradhras? Their help would have saved a lot of blood and sweat, along with avoiding that pesky Balrog, but apparently it just wasn't an option, for reasons already stated.

[Twista]

13 months to Mordor was it? And what the hobbits walk at 3mph?

So thats 13 x 30 x 24 = 9360 hours

Take off 3360 for sleeping etc?

6000 hours.... so its 2000 miles to Mordor?

What speed wud u say an eagle flys at?

[Elf Girl]

I think Sauron did not guard Mt. Doom because the thougt that anyone would want to destroy something that could give them so much power was entirely foreign to his nature. He assumed they would go to Minas Tirith, and Aragorn, probably, or Gandalf, would become Ringlord. If he was in their position, he would certainly have claimed it and become powerful. He can't even concieve the idea that they would want to destroy so much power.
From RotK:
'...We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say "So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever."...'
It never crossed Sauron's mind that they would try to destroy it. He thought they were going to Minas Tirith.

[Twista]

Still, you'd think he'd have at least 1 orc garrasoned there, out of the 1000's he had availible to him...

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Valandil
it was a 'Christmas present' from 'brownjenkins'...

A 'Christmas present' you say? Does that mean you actually strangled brownjenkins and took it by force? Hmm...

[ryttu3k]

Originally posted by Thorin II
A 'Christmas present' you say? Does that mean you actually strangled brownjenkins and took it by force? Hmm...

*snickers*

Okay, back on topic, so what if the eagle carried Frodo to Minas Tirith? That way, Sauron would still be convinced that the city was its destination, and might not notice the halfling that slipped out in the night...

But that brings new problems - Minas Tirith might have been attacked a lot sooner, plus if certain people knew how close the ring was... well...

[Wayfarer]

Still, you'd think he'd have at least 1 orc garrasoned there, out of the 1000's he had availible to him... Allright, let's think about this 'bright idea' you all have. Okay, so I'm an evil dark lord who thinks nothing of sending his troops into a battle where they will be slaughtered wholesale, but do you really think I'm going to be stupid enough to station my people on or anywhere near an active volcano?

There was a guard on the plateau of Gorgoroth. Remember the huge encampment that Sam and Frodo saw along their way? That was it. And they were as close as they were going to be with any chance of safety in the case of an eruption (even a relatively minor one, let alone one like what happened when the ring went into the fire.)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Allright, let's think about this 'bright idea' you all have. Okay, so I'm an evil dark lord who thinks nothing of sending his troops into a battle where they will be slaughtered wholesale, but do you really think I'm going to be stupid enough to station my people on or anywhere near an active volcano?"
_________________________________

An interesting argument, but do you really think Sauron would give a bleep if he lost a dozen or so orcsies? Hey, this is a guy who gave Shelob an orc snack every now and then.

[Earniel]

A guard at Mt. Doom would have been rather useless IMO. It has no strategical importance to station troops about it, in fact no importance whatsoever unless you wanted to destroy a certain high-quality Ring (garanteed to be unbreakable by Sauron Enterprises) and that was completely unthought of. Because who could ever think of destroying such a pretty, perfect, 'harmless' little trinket? Besides Mt. Doom lay nearly in the middle of the plain of Gorgoroth. So who in their right mind would even think about going there?

[Twista]

If that were true then Sauron woudnt expect the person flying on the eagle to destroy it would he? Most likely he'd try and capture it rather than shoot it down..

[Elf Girl]

Except that Eagles are more spottable than two little hobbits in Elven-Cloaks. It wasn't that Sauron was unable to consider them destroying it, it just didn't occur to him until he felt Frodo claim the Ring and Mt. Doom. The eagles would have 'prompted' him towards that realization had he seen them winging their way across Mordor towards Orudruin.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

And with the Eye of Sauron and the Palantir he might well have seen them far earlier, or even when preparing to leave. Plus passengers on top of giant eagles would have been a rather suspicious occurence,.

[Twista]

Yet the fact still remains the eagles could have helped in some manner, just to the dge of Gonder or something... as someone else has already mentioned.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Fyi, a comment by Tolkien in "Letters" on overuse of the Eagles in a proposed LOTR film, which may be somewhat apropos to this discussion:
"Here we meet the first intrusion of the Eagles. I think they are a major mistake of Z (American producer Morton Grady Zimmerman), and without warrant.
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility
or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape.....
At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced.I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale.
(Tolkien's use of italics). 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go to the air!"

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Twista
Yet the fact still remains the eagles could have helped in some manner, just to the dge of Gonder or something... as someone else has already mentioned. They did help. The Eagles seem to help the people of Middle-earth when things are very, very bleak, and they would not succeed without their intervention.
In the Hobbit, the Eagles join the Battle of Five Armies when things are going badly, and turn the tide of battle. They also rescue Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves from certain doom when they were trapped by the Wargs and Orcs.
In Lord of the Rings, they arrive (again, later in the battle) at the battle at the Morannon, then save Frodo and Sam's lives when they would have died otherwise.
I think this supports what Tuor said. The Eagles get involved rarely, and only when absolutely necessary.

[Twista]

yes i guess your rite... i think this thread is exhausted now lol... things just seem to be getting repeated.

[Attalus]

Yep, that's what all of these arguments end up being. Don't even mention Balrogs.

[Twista]

What happens in the Balrog arguments? What does someoneask ' Why didnt Sauron summon on the remaining Balrogs within Middle Earth ' Or something like that?

[Attalus]

Hmm, post a thread saying something like, "Did Balrogs have wings?", and see what'll happen. Something not nice. As for me, I have my opinion, and I don't participate any more. Other topics to avoid: Was Gollum a Stoor? What is the origin of Orcs (or Dragons)? Did Elves have pointed ears? Did Urûk-hai exist outside of Saruman's army? You'll be surprised what stong opinions mild-mannered Tolkienophiles have. At least we settled Who tore up the bolsters?

[azalea]

Originally posted by Attalus
Hmm, post a thread saying something like, "Did Balrogs have wings?", and see what'll happen.

No, please don't do that:eek: ! (Besides, there was one opened just recently :p ).

[Twista]

What if i posted 'Was there any such thing as a Slime Balrog because there are concept pictures on the TT Dvd lol'

would that stir up controvasy? lol

[Attalus]

Not if I understand your premise correctly, but I might be wrong. There seems to be something about Balrogs that brings out the worst in Tolkien fans.

[Nurvingiel]

Aren't Balrogs servants of Morgoth? They might not listen to Sauron if he commanded them, but they do have similar goals.

[Attalus]

I think that the Balrogs probably did have to obey Sauron during Morgoth's time, since he was the big boss' chief lieutenant; but wouldn't after his banishment. They were all, after all, Maiar.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Attalus
I think that the Balrogs probably did have to obey Sauron during Morgoth's time, since he was the big boss' chief lieutenant; but wouldn't after his banishment. They were all, after all, Maiar.
______________________________

And one of the nice touches in the books, which PJ missed in the movies, is the concept of evil forces (and good guys) acting independently, not only Balrogs, but also dragons (Smaug), Old Man Willow, Caradhras, etc.).

[Twista]

Yeh it a is a cool concept. But it wouldnt have been cool to read of other creatures obaying Sauron in Lotr.

[luinilwen]

i'd just like to put in my two cents re: twista's original comment.

if you're pursuing a "why didnt they ... instead?" question, how about why did iluvatar ever create melkor if he knew how much horror would result from his existence? wouldn't that make life so much easier for the ainur and all of eru's kiddies? why would he knowingly subject them to that?

and i think the answer is more then just "it makes a better story". this is just my opinion, but i think the idea is that bliss/peace/freedom/prosperity are earned through hardship and suffering (such as the hardship of the valar, or war in general), and therefore there are no shortcuts to "righteousness".

i think also that a lot of the arguments presented in terms of the story are extremely pertinent, such as the ultimate destiny of the ring, and the fate of gollum.

i really don't know how pertinent or coherent my comment was - my thoughts tends to run into each other sometimes! :p

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by luinilwen
and i think the answer is more then just "it makes a better story". this is just my opinion, but i think the idea is that bliss/peace/freedom/prosperity are earned through hardship and suffering (such as the hardship of the valar, or war in general), and therefore there are no shortcuts to "righteousness".


You forgot the most important thing, Hope...:D

[luinilwen]

umm... that too!

i like some of the arguments that this thread generated anyway... some of them made me think of the whole argument about the air speed velocity of a swallow... (African or European?) :p

[Iron McFist]

Unladen :p

[luinilwen]

pedant *sniff*... bet you're gay...

;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

I suspect that Suaron, well aways of the potential uses of eagles and other flying creatures, particularly as spies, has deadly enough air defenses around mordor, particularlt near his citadel. If he can breed huge flying mounts for the Nazguls, no doubts he can breeds an assorment of smaller raptor like creature to intercept what intrudors that stomach the fumes in the air. I rather doubt aerial penetration to Mr Doom was praticalal until the defenses collapsed with the passing of Sauron.