Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[Valandil]

Here's what always strikes me about "The Silmarillion": It seems like the Valar were sent to Arda to prevent Melkor from ruining it (in addition to fulfilling the creation of it). Instead, it seems like they despaired at his destruction - and set up their own little section where they would make sure and run things right - and the rest could just go to pot.

When the Elves came along, the response of the Valar was to bring them over to this sheltered land they had created - instead of preventing Melkor from corrupting the land where they were placed (and, perhaps the Elves themselves).

I never quite understood this. Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

Of course... then we wouldn't have a story. Were the Valar doing the 'right' thing though - what Eru would have wanted them to do? Or were they proving to be as 'fallable' in their own way as Elves and Men by not always doing the correct thing? Didn't they always have responsibility for all of Arda? And did they fail in this responsibility by allowing Melkor to go unchecked?

(In fact, along these lines, it could be argued that the rebellion of the Elves against the Valar ultimately induced them to do what they should have done to begin with.)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil

I never quite understood this. Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

because at the very begin Melkor still had all his power...at the end of the First Age, he had put alot of it into the Earth and given alot to Sauron, which is why he (Melkor) was weaker.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
because at the very begin Melkor still had all his power...at the end of the First Age, he had put alot of it into the Earth and given alot to Sauron, which is why he (Melkor) was weaker.

Ah... from what I've gathered, the thesis of "Morgoth's Ring"???

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil
Ah... from what I've gathered, the thesis of "Morgoth's Ring"???

yeah I think that's where I got that from:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977

And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

[Wayfarer]

I've always thought they were. I'm more of an opinion that Feanor was right, and that the Valar foolishly kept the elves from their birthright, and in the process set the stage for most of the misery in middle earth's history. They should have blasted Melkor into the void from the get-go, and /then/ gone about remaking the world without his interference.

[Lizra]

I vote yes also. They were shirking their duty.

[Captain Stern]

I think they also felt that even Morgoth had a right to live in Arda, and that they still held out some hope that he may eventually have changed his ways, which was demostrated by their releasing of him from Mandos in the First Age.

The Valar (Manwe in particular) were shown to be grief stricken when great, promising, individuals (namely Feanor) fell to ill deeds. Morgoth's fall from grace must have been at least as painful to them, especially to Manwe since they were 'brothers'. Therefore I don't think we should discount emotional factors when determining why they did anything when it came to dealing (or not dealing in this case) with Morgoth.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yes, it appears that they seriously failed in their duties and amde many bad strategic choices.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Yes, it appears that they seriously failed in their duties and amde many bad strategic choices.

Do I sense sarcasm??? (I don't know you well enough to know for sure either way, Lefty)

(EDIT: btw - no offense taken if it was - and hope you'll take none if it was not)

[Lefty Scaevola]

No sarcasm. Their principal charge was to make a home for the Children of Illuvatar, yep they often gave higher priority to their own abodes and comforts than to provide a minimally safe world for the children. How could their ever be a worse strategic choice than releasing Morgoth from captivity? The 2nd worse choice earlier, "and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar". Huh?!? How could it possibly be safer to rend the earth after the children were place in it than before? Beside them not yet being around to fall into flaming chasms, You would likely have time to repair it again before they appeared.
JRRT does start making this more sensible in HoME "Myths Trasnformed" by increasing Melkor's power relative to the Valar, so that they feared they could not defeat him, yet this do not change their charge and duty.

[Arien the Maia]

plus, not only did the Valar want to bring the Elves to Aman, they hardly ever cared about the race of Men. They are both the Children of Iluvatar and IMO should be treated equally! Who knows, if they would have looked out for Men more, perhaps Men wouldn't have fallen to Melkor's temptations in the first place.

[brownjenkins]

in the early version of lost tales there's a passage about the valar not being able to achieve the greatness they could have, or something to that account, by not taking on melkor when they could have... i believe it is mentioned in conjuction with the elves not achieveing their greatness either, for their own shortcomings... the valar of those days were much more like the emotionally fallible gods we see in greek mythology... they also seemed to be much more a part of middle earth... it was a process of learning and growing for them as much as it was for iluvatar's other children

i think jrrt tried to change this later and make them more "godly" and "above the fray"... so he had to rationalize their decisions in a new way, but the story elements lingered and he had to come up with some reason for their holding off on melkor... so he added the bit about not wanting to rend the earth again... though you almost get the feeling that they we're punishing the elves who left... waiting to help until they were at almost utter defeat... maybe they were just trying to build character ;)

and, in the end, they did quite a bit of rending anyway

* nice new pic arien! *

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
* nice new pic arien! *

thanks! you can see the whole thing here (http://entmoot.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=317668)

[Artanis]

The Valar were far from flawless. As several posters here have pointed out, they made many bad choices. Perhaps it is the word 'Gods' that mislead us to think they are without flaws. But we should remember that they were made of no 'higher' or nobler stuff than Melkor was.
Originally posted by Arien the Maia
plus, not only did the Valar want to bring the Elves to Aman, they hardly ever cared about the race of Men. They are both the Children of Iluvatar and IMO should be treated equally! Who knows, if they would have looked out for Men more, perhaps Men wouldn't have fallen to Melkor's temptations in the first place. That one has bugged me too. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is reflected in Finrod's words to Andreth in the Athrabeth:'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.

[Maedhros]

Of course... then we wouldn't have a story. Were the Valar doing the 'right' thing though - what Eru would have wanted them to do? Or were they proving to be as 'fallable' in their own way as Elves and Men by not always doing the correct thing? Didn't they always have responsibility for all of Arda? And did they fail in this responsibility by allowing Melkor to go unchecked?
This is the answer that you are looking for:
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta
If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.

Who among the Eldar hold that the captivity of Melkor in Mandos (which was achieved by force) was either unwise or unlawful? Yet the resolve to assault Melkor, not merely to withstand him, to meet violence with wrath to the peril of Arda, was taken by Manwe only with reluctance. And consider: what good in this case did even the lawful use of force accomplish? It removed him for a while and relieved Middle-earth from the pressure of his malice, but it did not uproot his evil, for it could not do so. Unless, maybe, Melkor had indeed repented. (Note 9) But he did not repent, and in humiliation he became more obdurate: more subtle in his deceits, more cunning in his lies, crueller and more dastardly in his revenge. The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

And this is it.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Valar were far from flawless. As several posters here have pointed out, they made many bad choices. Perhaps it is the word 'Gods' that mislead us to think they are without flaws. But we should remember that they were made of no 'higher' or nobler stuff than Melkor was.
That one has bugged me too. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is reflected in Finrod's words to Andreth in the Athrabeth:Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.

yes, I've read that in the Athrabeth too. It's one of my favorite stories and I wish it was included in the Silmarillion:(

I guess overall I wish Tolkien expanded more on the nature of Men so as to clear up alot of my questions about their fate but oh well

[brownjenkins]

Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies?

interestingly, even this was dealt with differently in the early tales... it is actually by using deception that the valar capture melkor the first time in the original conception... this detail was also dropped later

on mankind... you do get the feeling that they were outside the realm of the valar, so i can understand them not getting involved to some extent... and of course, in the end, they did help out mankind through the istari

[Thorin II]

Some great discussion on this topic. I especially liked the posts about the Valar not being certain if they could or should govern Men (Artanis) and about the "folly" of the Valar (Maedhros).

My response to the question is that they were not shirking their duties, but they were not very effective in their task, either. It didn't seem the Valar were really prepared to deal with any kind of discord. As much as Melkor was the mightiest Vala, the thing that really seemed to set him apart was his willingness to go against the grain. The rest of the Valar seemed to seek harmony at all costs, and they didn't have any idea how to deal with anything else (especially Melkor). For that reason, the Valar were more focused on quieting the source of discord than on really doing anything about it.

[Maedhros]

Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.
Or it might be that, the Valar had no business dealing with Men at first because Eru was doing that.
There is the Tale of Adanel, in which there is a tradition among Men that at first, they could hear the voice of Eru but they rejected it and instead followed either Melkor or his servants.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Or it might be that, the Valar had no business dealing with Men at first because Eru was doing that.Yep, as I quoted Finrod earlier: "Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One". Eru's gift to Men.

[Maedhros]

Smack.:cool:

[Artanis]

*hee hee* :p

[Thorin II]

Congrats, Artanis. Your smack-down was good enough to shut down this topic. :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Congrats, Artanis. Your smack-down was good enough to shut down this topic. :D Err - Falagar started this smacking habit, with his frying pan. Blame/congratulate him. :p

[Valandil]

Is this why, as thread-starter, I suddenly developed a black eye, bloody nose and bruised knee?:eek: :confused:

[Artanis]

Nobody has smacked you Val - yet.
But if we continue to spam this thread, SGH might fetch her admin stick. :p

[Orli17]

Hey i haven't entirely read the Silmarillion bu ti have to ask one question......
The Valar were trying to create a utopian society right? What was their motif? cuz we have a project for history class about utopian societies that fialed and i decided to do teh valar seeing that melkor messed up middle earth...can anyone help me? And whcih parts should i read in teh silmarillion to get my answers? of coure 'il read the whole thign l8er fo rmy own pleasure but the thingy is du eon monday!!! ahhhhhhhhh what is hte motif for the Valar creating a perfect society????
THANKSSSSSESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Orli17
Hey i haven't entirely read the Silmarillion bu ti have to ask one question......
The Valar were trying to create a utopian society right? What was their motif? cuz we have a project for history class about utopian societies that fialed and i decided to do teh valar seeing that melkor messed up middle earth...can anyone help me? And whcih parts should i read in teh silmarillion to get my answers? of coure 'il read the whole thign l8er fo rmy own pleasure but the thingy is du eon monday!!! ahhhhhhhhh what is hte motif for the Valar creating a perfect society????
THANKSSSSSESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I think that the Valar (minus Melkor) wanted to just have a happy existence on Arda...which IMO is what Iluvatar created them for...to share in His happiness. Unfortunately, they could choose to follow the law of Iluvatar or go against it like Melkor did.

[Orli17]

ok i see....so its just that they wanted a happy society and world where they enjoy the things htey see adn create.......like even the awakening of hte elves and teh dwarves and all that right? so it's like plain desire that made them create what they did.......okie.....and their philosophy was to make iluvatar happy? i'm a little confused htere but htanks anways!!! i've gotta work so hard to find tha tanswer....i should read the preface..oh well!
TTFN

[Rían]

Great quotes, Maedhros! Where is that? (Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta)

[Artanis]

RÃ*an, Vinyar Tengwar is a journal, devoted to Tolkien's invented languages. You can read about it here (http:///www.elvish.org/VT/)
The Ósanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of Thought, was published in VT no. 39.

[MasterMothra]

I think Artanis hit the nail firmly on the head. Another example was the Valar's unwillingness to deal with Ar-Pharazon(men) when he set sail to Valinor. Instead of dealing with men they simply dropped the problem on Eru's feet.

To answer the original question, I do think the Valar shirked duty at times in their own best intrest. By turning a blind eye toward Melkor/Morgoth's misdeeds, they really undermined the perception of the Valar's integrity. They had many chances at redemption: after the raping of the Silmarils and especially during the Ar-Pharazon incident. They just never took control over the direction of Arda. Unfortunately, the Valar's choices brought an enormous amount of hardship on men and elves.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

The Valar were unsuccessful in many of their endeavors regarding Arda and its people. They did try, on various occasions, to help and save the Eldar.

This, I content does no imply the Valar "shirked their reasonability". On numerous occasions they offered assistance to the Eldar, beginning with their initial war with Melkor, which was commenced with the aim of preserving Middle Earth for the Elves. Then, when this proved beyond them, they offered the Eldar a chance to leave the tainted Hither land and come to Aman, which they had managed to preserve. Melkor was imprisoned, and the Eldar were welcomed to the bliss of Valinor.

Feanor and the Silmarils, coupled along with a released Melkor's malice, caused the flight of the Noldor FROM paradise, back to a middle earth that was still under the yoke of shadow.

The Valar initially gave them every opportunity to return, but they would not, and thus the Valar are not at fault. The Sindar also exist in middle earth, and thus suffer its perils, for they were NOT willing to go to Aman in the first place.

The Valar only come to their aid at the behest of Earendil having been, well, screwed over in their plans by the malice of Melkor, and the pride of the Noldor.

What else should the Valar have done, for those who spurned their paradise and refused their help? Should they assist these said rebels only when they start to lose?

I contend that it’s the Valar that were abandoned, and their counsel shunned.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Oh, and on the subject of the Edain and the fall of Numenor, I still fail to see how one can blame the Valar for the failing of Men.

The Valar, seeing the sacrifice made by the fathers of men, REWARDED them with the gift of Westernesse. It gave all those loyal and true a home free from fear, and plentiful in bounty.

What the hell else did the men of the west want? Their only problem was the "gift" of Iluvatar. And their lives were extended in recompense.

It was the pride of men, fanned by the malice of Sauron that led to the invasion of Aman.

So the Valar called upon Eru to sort the men out. So what? The Valar had given the forsaken men of Middle Earth a haven of sanctuary on Arda, a place of heaven on earth for them to live in peace. Only to have the same men whom loved their compassion invade them with the purpose of annihilating them, and taking their land for their own. Talk about gratitude.

The Valar didn't "cop out" and call upon Eru for the solution, they felt the treachery of men was such that only the creator could cleanse Arda from its effects.

So once again, who owes who?

[Radagast The Brown]

I do think The Valar were shrinking thewir duties.

Let's say The Valar did convinced the elves to go to Valinor. When Melkor is back, don't they think to go and help the Sindar? Is Melkor the Sindar's job to fight against? Is it their fault, that he's free again? The answer is no.

The Noldor went to fight Morgoth, and I don't think the Valar should have stopped them. If they wanted to leave Valinor I don't think the Valar have a problem but perhaps, the Valasr should've fight Morgoth themselves, before he could get his full powers back, create dragons, etc.?

I can't find any problem with the Valar's reaction after Ar Pharazon 'attacked' them, and can't find the Men's treachery their fault.

[Maedhros]

I do think The Valar were shrinking thewir duties.
From the Converse of Manwë and Eru
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it


shrink: To show reluctance; hesitate: shrink from making such a sacrifice.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

But they did shrink from their duty.

[Radagast The Brown]

So Eru agrees with me that the Valar should've fight Melkor before, but doesn't agree that they should've fight him after the Noldor left Aman? That's what I understood.

Isn't shrink means to make something smaller? :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't shrink means to make something smaller? It means to evade the performance of one's duty.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It means to evade the performance of one's duty. That's only when you shrink a duty, not 'to shrink' generally...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
That's only when you shrink a duty, not 'to shrink' generally... You're misreading the word RTB. It is 'shirk' not 'shrink':)

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You're misreading the word RTB. It is 'shirk' not 'shrink':) Oh. :o :rolleyes:

[Artanis]

Rad, I did the same mistake at first too.
The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Rad, I did the same mistake at first too.
The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'. It's no big deal. :D In fact, I've found so many typing errors and outright mispellings (and I'm to blame for some myself) that I have no idea, sometimes, what the poster is trying to say. :D

[Radagast The Brown]

When I saw it first I was sure it's 'shrinking' from some reason. As Artanis said I guess my brain also interpreted it. But I was so sure it's shrinking!:o Then, of course, I felt stupid when I realized it's 'shirking'.
But if anything good came out of it, is that now I'm sure I'd remember the word 'shirking'. :p No way I'm gonna forget.

Thanks, Artanis. Good to now I'm not the only one. :rolleyes:

[Ruinel]

As to the question... whether or not the Valar shirked their duties in ME....

Yes, and no.

On the one hand, ME was not made for the Valar to inherit but for the Children of Eru to inhabit. The Valar were to prepare it for their coming. They did that. So, as for those duties, they did not shirk it.

On the other hand, Melkor, the mightiest of the Valar, takes ME for himself. This is not what was meant to be... or was it?

So, lets say that the Valar all ganged up on the mightiest, and there was a great battle between them in the beginning... ruining all that ME was meant to be, making it a hideous waste all over. Would this have been better? No, I don't think so. Even though Melkor made foul a good chunk of ME, he didn't destroy it completely.

Also, think about it all this way... everything in existence... all of Ea... was from Eru, the One. Even Melkor was from Eru. What Melkor was, and what he became, was all a part of Eru's design... he was as much a part of the music as the trees and the Children. Within that design was 'free will', for Melkor, the other Valar, and the Children. Their corruption or their lack of action, was all a part of their own free will. In fact, the 'free will' was part of fate and destiny. So, was it the design of 'free will' that Melkor takes a role in the corruption and spoiling of ME?

From disaster comes rebirth. From the struggle comes strength. And if it were not for the common cause to over take Melkor and throw him from power, Men and Elves might not have found a common ground to come together on.

Therefore, if the Valar had overthrown Melkor at the beginning rather than waiting patiently, things might have gone worse for the Children.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, lets say that the Valar all ganged up on the mightiest, and there was a great battle between them in the beginning... ruining all that ME was meant to be, making it a hideous waste all over. Would this have been better? No, I don't think so. Even though Melkor made foul a good chunk of ME, he didn't destroy it completely. But, there was still a war against Melkor in the end of the first age, what's the difference between this war and the war that could've been in the beginning? Only that Morgoth's strength was smaller in the beginning, which could've been easier to the Valar, and many elves and men could've saved.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
But, there was still a war against Melkor in the end of the first age, what's the difference between this war and the war that could've been in the beginning? Only that Morgoth's strength was smaller in the beginning, which could've been easier to the Valar, and many elves and men could've saved. True, their lives would have been saved. But there would not have been a common ground for the Elves and Men to meet on. In the case that was presented in The Sil they came together, put aside any differences, and became a strong and united force under one cause. Had there been no cause to fight for, they would not have gained from each other. And I suspect their contact would have been minimal.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
True, their lives would have been saved. But there would not have been a common ground for the Elves and Men to meet on. In the case that was presented in The Sil they came together, put aside any differences, and became a strong and united force under one cause. Had there been no cause to fight for, they would not have gained from each other. And I suspect their contact would have been minimal. Maybe. But you can't really know what would might happen if...
My guess is that the Calaquendi would never leave Aman.
What would happen to the men? I think one of the Valar, or maiar would go to teach them 'culture' and 'technology'. And besides the Sindar would be there, to help them, and teach them too.

Edit - and besides it has got nothing to do with the Valar shirking their duties. It's like saying it's good to kill elves and men to get the races close.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Maybe. But you can't really know what would might happen if...
My guess is that the Calaquendi would never leave Aman.
What would happen to the men? I think one of the Valar, or maiar would go to teach them 'culture' and 'technology'. And besides the Sindar would be there, to help them, and teach them too.

Edit - and besides it has got nothing to do with the Valar shirking their duties. It's like saying it's good to kill elves and men to get the races close. True, we can't say 'what if'... (that's another thread ;))

If Melkor had been whisked off to the void at the first sign of trouble... then you are right... the whole problem with the Silmarils would never have happened. And the Noldor never would have left in the first place.

But on the other hand, they never would have been brought to Valinor to begin with. The whole purpose of them being shuffled off to Valinor was for their own protection, from Melkor.

It was the Elves that shared their knowledge with Men, not the Valar, not the Maiar. Most of the exchange of knowledge came as a result of the two 'races' uniting under a common cause.

And no, I'm not saying that it's good to kill Elves and Men to get them close. I'm saying they never would have come together if it weren't for their common enemy.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Also, think about it all this way... everything in existence... all of Ea... was from Eru, the One. Even Melkor was from Eru. What Melkor was, and what he became, was all a part of Eru's design... he was as much a part of the music as the trees and the Children. Within that design was 'free will', for Melkor, the other Valar, and the Children. Their corruption or their lack of action, was all a part of their own free will. In fact, the 'free will' was part of fate and destiny. So, was it the design of 'free will' that Melkor takes a role in the corruption and spoiling of ME?

From disaster comes rebirth. From the struggle comes strength. And if it were not for the common cause to over take Melkor and throw him from power, Men and Elves might not have found a common ground to come together on.

Therefore, if the Valar had overthrown Melkor at the beginning rather than waiting patiently, things might have gone worse for the Children.

i agree... i think it was all part of the plan of eru... with the valar playing a more passive than active role... other than melkor, of course... from the way it reads, it's actually hard to say if the valar really had much of a duty at all, other than what they chose to do

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i agree... i think it was all part of the plan of eru... with the valar playing a more passive than active role... other than melkor, of course... from the way it reads, it's actually hard to say if the valar really had much of a duty at all, other than what they chose to do I always saw the Valar as more of silent partners in ME. They aided in it's creation, they all played a part in it's splendor.

And what you see is what I see as well. Powerful, yes, but I don't feel their part was meant to be active once the Children came into being. Orome leading them to the West was, IMO, a necessary stretch for them from what they were meant to be.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Bang on target.

The Valar did everything that they were suppose to, in aid of the coming of the Eldar. They prepared Middle Earth for their coming, when Melkor went off the rails; they went to war with him with the specific intent of saving their creation FOR the elves. When he was defeated, ME was tainted by his malice, and thus could never fully be saved. But Aman could.

The Elves were given their chance at paradise, to take the ships to Valinor. Those that did were rewarded with peace and light, and those whom did not come, were not. The Valar cannot make the Eldar do anything, thus the Sindar not being forced to come. They abandoned their shot at Valinor, and are themselves only to blame. The Noldor abandoned Valinor, and thus their pain and grief are also on their heads.

The Valar are not wet nurses to care for the baby Elves. The Eldar have the choice, and those that made the wrong one, suffer their own fate.

In fact, I think the Valar when above and beyond in the War of Wrath, seeing as if the elves had gone to Aman, or stayed there, none of this would have happened.

[MasterMothra]

We see how well the Valar protected the Elves in Valinor. They offered no more protection there than the elves had outside. Who can blame them for leaving.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

and of course, life in a ME under the shadow of Morgoth is immeasurably better than a life in Valinor under the light of Manwe...

They fled for the pride of Feanor under the lies of Morgoth. The Valar tried to warn them as to what would come to pass, but the Noldor heeded them not.

They took the lies of Morgoth over the truth of Manwe.

Let them sleep in the beds they made.

[MasterMothra]

Tell me how life in Valinor offered more protection than outside?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
But on the other hand, they never would have been brought to Valinor to begin with. The whole purpose of them being shuffled off to Valinor was for their own protection, from Melkor. I'm not sure, really, what was the 'purpose' of bringing the Elves to Valinor. Melkor wasn't in power when the Valar decided to bring them, and therefore he can't be the reason for that. The Silmarillion writes that some of the Vlaar were worried about letting the elves stay in Middle Earth from some reason, and thast they also already loved the elves and wanted their company. (selfish matters then)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I'm not sure, really, what was the 'purpose' of bringing the Elves to Valinor. Melkor wasn't in power when the Valar decided to bring them, and therefore he can't be the reason for that. The Silmarillion writes that some of the Vlaar were worried about letting the elves stay in Middle Earth from some reason, and thast they also already loved the elves and wanted their company. (selfish matters then) There was some concern...
But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor,....

Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship....

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
We see how well the Valar protected the Elves in Valinor. They offered no more protection there than the elves had outside. Who can blame them for leaving. There was more freedom in Aman from Evil than in ME. When the Noldor left because of the errors of pride of Feanor, they did so as a result of Melkor's lies and so that Feanor, et al, could regain the jewels that were his (or so he claimed).

In fact, and I know this is for another thread, I always felt that Feanor was a bit skewed as an Elf. He was quite possessive of what he had made, and for the most part, Elves take joy is the making and practice of skill for others. He certainly, IMO, should have given the Silmarils for all to share, since they were made from the now dead Trees.

[MasterMothra]

That may all be true. But the facts are this: Morgoth came to Valinor, killed the 2 trees, killed Finwe-King of the Noldor and stole the silmarils. Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Now we all know that Feanor was persueded by the words of Melkor, and his oath was made in haste, but the Valar didnt help things out by sitting by and doing nothing. How could the Elves believe they were safer in Valinor when the high king of the Noldor was murdered right under their noses and the Valor chose to do nothing?

[brownjenkins]

finwe was also feanor's father... and for a man who had already lost his mother, no minor loss

there were many factors involved... not the least of which was a desire for adventure, which even finrod expressed

maybe there was a touch of the classic "it is better to rule in hell then serve in heaven"

[Maedhros]

The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'.
It was new to a lot of us too.


shrink: To show reluctance; hesitate: shrink from making such a sacrifice.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

and we have the new word:

shirk: To avoid work or duty.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


From the Converse of Manwë and Eru
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it

The Valar did both. They shrunk and shirked from their duty at that particular time.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
That may all be true. But the facts are this: Morgoth came to Valinor, killed the 2 trees, killed Finwe-King of the Noldor and stole the silmarils. Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Now we all know that Feanor was persueded by the words of Melkor, and his oath was made in haste, but the Valar didnt help things out by sitting by and doing nothing. How could the Elves believe they were safer in Valinor when the high king of the Noldor was murdered right under their noses and the Valor chose to do nothing?
Morgoth was brought in chains and held for 3 ages. He didn't come of his own will. He convinced the Valar that he had repented and they let him loose, in fact he had not and only planned vengence for being spanked.

What would you have the Valar do? Reek vengence upon Melkor? That's not their style. I don't see the Valar as petty and vengeful. I see them more as trusting yet wise, powerful yet gentle. The pettiness and vengence was something that Melkor had a lot of. It made him the bad guy.

As for Valinor, it is a place of safety only because it is hidden from most of the world. It is a place of beauty because it is the undying lands. It is a place of peace because there is plenty and no one wants for anything. There is no sickness or dying there. A place does not become safe when it is made into a prison, it is only made a stronghold for misery.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

How can one compare the war and death of Middle Earth, war and death that the Noldor were warned would come to pass if they left Valinor, with the peace of the Undying Lands?

Melkor destroyed the two trees. Melkor killed the high king of the Noldor. Melkor stole the Silmarils. These things he did in Valinor and these things are not in dispute.

What is in question, is the relative safety of Aman opposed to Middle Earth.

Melkor was able to throw down the lamps of the Valar IN Middle Earth, as well as cast his darkness and his creatures all over the north of Beleriand. His Balrogs, Dragons and Orcish armies wrought massive devastation to all the Children of Iluvatar, killing a great number, INCLUDING several Kings and Lords of the Noldor and the Sindar.

The security of Valinor was breached just once, but how many Elvish cities and strongholds were sacked during the War of Beleriand?

So good call Noldor, that choice really panned out, didn't it?

Oh, and of course this claim:
"Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing. " as was so elequently phrased by a previous post.

The Valar, as best they may, partially restored the Light of the Two Trees with the Sun and the Moon. The Valar, at first counseled, then insisted, then warned the Noldor, NOT TO GO WHERE THEY COULD NOT PROTECT THEM. Mandos told them of all that would come to pass.
If they had just stayed put, none of their misfortunes would have happened. The Noldor should have had more faith in Manwe and less trust in Melkor.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
How can one compare the war and death of Middle Earth, war and death that the Noldor were warned would come to pass if they left Valinor, with the peace of the Undying Lands?

...What is in question, is the relative safety of Aman opposed to Middle Earth.

....The security of Valinor was breached just once, but how many Elvish cities and strongholds were sacked during the War of Beleriand?

So good call Noldor, that choice really panned out, didn't it?

...The Valar, as best they may, partially restored the Light of the Two Trees with the Sun and the Moon. The Valar, at first counseled, then insisted, then warned the Noldor, NOT TO GO WHERE THEY COULD NOT PROTECT THEM. Mandos told them of all that would come to pass.
If they had just stayed put, none of their misfortunes would have happened. The Noldor should have had more faith in Manwe and less trust in Melkor. I agree, Valinor was a safer place than ME. And what came to the Noldor had been warned.

One thing that I dispute about what you say... it was not that the Noldor trusted in Melkor, it was that Feanor lent an ear to Melkor's false words learning all too late how false those words were.

The body of people who are the Noldor followed their lords to ME, and it was their loyalty and love of kin that kept them together. When Feanor swore an oath to go to ME and take back the Silmarils it was with great sadness that some of them went with him. Some wanted to taste adventure (like Galadriel), that is true... but for the most part, they grieved to leave the peace and beauty of the Undying Lands.

In all, it was Feanor's decision that brought them all to ME, and not a group democratic vote on the matter.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
One thing that I dispute about what you say... it was not that the Noldor trusted in Melkor, it was that Feanor lent an ear to Melkor's false words learning all too late how false those words were.

The body of people who are the Noldor followed their lords to ME, and it was their loyalty and love of kin that kept them together. When Feanor swore an oath to go to ME and take back the Silmarils it was with great sadness that some of them went with him. Some wanted to taste adventure (like Galadriel), that is true... but for the most part, they grieved to leave the peace and beauty of the Undying Lands.

In all, it was Feanor's decision that brought them all to ME, and not a group democratic vote on the matter. Don't quite agree with you there Ru. Melkor spread his lies among all of the Noldor, not only to Fëanor. They all lent ear to this treacherous Vala, and trusted his words. Because of these lies and their pride they followed Fëanor into exile of free will. Many people put all the blame onto Fëanor, but I think he only did what many of the other Elves wished to do in their hearts, he was just the only one who was strong and reckless enough to rebel against the Valar openly.

I agree with GoG, Valinor was clearly a safer place than M-E, and I don't see what else the Valar could do to keep the Noldor back, other than giving sincere advice and warnings, which they did to no avail. To use force would be unlawful.

[Valandil]

When I originally posed the question, my thinking was that the Valar shirked their duty LONG before Feanor led the Noldor to Middle-earth. It seemed to me that they should have taken on Melkor from the start and that all Arda should have been under their care - not just Aman. Instead, it seems like they threw up their hands in resignation and retreated to their little corner of the world - when Eru had placed the entire world under their care.

[brownjenkins]

i basically agree with you on that Val... i believe it is even spelled out to some extent in the earlier writings that the valar did not become what they could have been because of this fact

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
When I originally posed the question, my thinking was that the Valar shirked their duty LONG before Feanor led the Noldor to Middle-earth. It seemed to me that they should have taken on Melkor from the start and that all Arda should have been under their care - not just Aman. Instead, it seems like they threw up their hands in resignation and retreated to their little corner of the world - when Eru had placed the entire world under their care. What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

In addition, they did not know what Eru wanted. They only waited for Melkor to come around.. like the Prodigal Son. Though he never did. He squandered the powers Eru gave him in selfishness instead of making ME a better place.

Did the Valar shirk their duties. I say no. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't meant to war with each other.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

In addition, they did not know what Eru wanted. They only waited for Melkor to come around.. like the Prodigal Son. Though he never did. He squandered the powers Eru gave him in selfishness instead of making ME a better place.

Did the Valar shirk their duties. I say no. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't meant to war with each other.

Yes - they were slow to act in their own War on Terror. And in the end, they had to fight him anyway - and the strife caused more damage than if they had taken care of things to begin with. ;) :D

[Artanis]

Though I agree with you Val and bj, I think it is also quite understandable that they did not make war. Consider that they had laboured long to shape Arda and make it beautiful and good for the Children to inhabit. I can see that they were reluctant to risk destroying it. It is easy to say afterwards what they should have done, but they could not foresee Melkor's later actions.

[brownjenkins]

in lost tales there are a few passages (that i don't have on hand atm) that make it pretty clear that the valar had made a mistake by not taking on melko earlier and removing themselves from the greater part of middle earth

this is also evidenced by ulmo's role in these tales... where he was often at odds with the other valar

tolkien seemed to have moved away from this later on... trying to reconcile the valar's actions as being the will of eru... if i remember right, in lost tales it was represented as the valar's "duty" to care for the children of ilúvatar... later on they seem to have lost this as a direct responsibility, and became more teachers and advisiors

[Valandil]

An amusing notion just struck me: Sure, it's not 100%, but to a large degree, the males posting think the Valar DID shirk their duty and the females think the Valar DID NOT shirk their duty!

Adds weight to the argument that 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' - with Mars being the Roman god of War and Venus the Roman goddess of Love. :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
An amusing notion just struck me: Sure, it's not 100%, but to a large degree, the males posting think the Valar DID shirk their duty and the females think the Valar DID NOT shirk their duty!

Adds weight to the argument that 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' - with Mars being the Roman god of War and Venus the Roman goddess of Love. :) I resent generalisations like that - especially since I seem to be an exception to all of them. :rolleyes:
:D

brownjenkins, it seems to me that Ulmo had more foreknowledge than the rest of the Valar, so it was easier for him to take actions against Melkor.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I resent generalisations like that - especially since I seem to be an exception to all of them.

But you seemed to fall right in line with THIS generalization! ;) :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
But you seemed to fall right in line with THIS generalization! ;) :p Read again. I said I agreed with you and brownjenkins. But I understand WHY they did their mistake.

At least that's what I meant to say. :)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
Read again. I said I agreed with you and brownjenkins. But I understand WHY they did their mistake.

At least that's what I meant to say. :)

Well... then there goes my generalization! :o :p :D

[brownjenkins]

i refuse to be generalized... typical comment from a chicagoian ;)

i dug up some relative info from christopher tolkien (from the web, so hopefully accurate... bold added)

Morgoth's Ring (from The Withdrawal of the Valar)

The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelóri to a great height. It is possible to view this as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken one. Ulmo disapproved of it.*** It had one good, and legitimate object: the preservation incorrupt of at least part of Arda. But it seemed to have a selfish or neglectful (or dispairing) motive also; for the effort to preserve the Elves incorrupt there had proved a failure if they were to be left free: many had refused to come to the Blessed Realm, many had revolted and left it. Whereas, with regard to Men, Manwë and all the Valar knew quite well that they could not come to Aman at all; and the longevity (co-extensive with the life of Arda) of Valar and Eldar was expressly not permitted to Men. Thus the 'Hiding of Valinor' came near to countering Morgoth's possessiveness by a rival possessiveness, setting up a private domain of light and bliss against one of darkness and domination: a palace and a pleasaunce (well-fenced) against a fortress and a dungeon.
This appearance of selfish fainéance in the Valar in the mythology as told is (though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think only an 'appearance', and one which we are apt to accept as truth, since we are all in some degree affected by the shadow and lies of their Enemy, the Calumniator. It has to be remembered that the 'mythology' is represented as being two stages removed from a true record: it is based first upon Elvish records and lore about the Valar and their own dealings with them; and these have reached us (fragmentarily) only through relics of Númenórean (human) traditions, derived from the Eldar, in the earlier parts, though for later times supplemented by anthropocentric histories and tales.(7) These, it is true, came down through the 'Faithful' and their descendants in Middle-earth, but could not altogether escape the darkening of the picture due to the hostility of the rebellious Númenóreans to the Valar.


*** Overt condemnation, strongly expressed, of the Valar for the Hiding of Valinor is found in the story of that named in The Book of Lost Tales (I.208-9), but disappears in the later versions. Of the old story I noted (I.23) that 'in The Silmarillion there is no vestige of the tumultuous council, no suggestion of a disagreement among the Valar, with Manwë, Varda and Ulmo actively disapproving the work and holding aloof from it', and I commented:

It is most curiours to observe that the action of the Valar here sprang essentially from indolence mixed with fear. Nowhere does my father's early conception of the fainéant Gods appear more clearly. He held moreover quite explicitly that their failure to make war upon Melko then and there was a deep error, diminishing themselves, and (as it appears) irreparable. In his later writing the Hiding of Valinor remained indeed, but only as a great fact of mythological antiquity; there is no whisper of its condemnation.

The last words refer to the actual Silmarillion narratives. Ulmo's disapproval now reappears, and is a further evidence of his isolation in the counsels of the Valar (see p. 253 note 11); cf. his words to Tuor at Vinyamar (having spoken to him, among other things, of 'the hiding of the Blessed Realm', though what he said is not told): 'Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethern, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World' (Unfinished Tales p. 29).

i think you can see a movement from somewhat "human" gods (much like those of greek tradition)... to the later ones that seemed to be more instruments of eru/fate... the latter of which makes it more difficult to place blame upon valar, elves or men

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

You have got to be kidding, right? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Melkor was a murderer. Are you saying that it is better to let a murderer run around with the hope that he will be miraculously reformed? I think it is more responsible to cut your losses with Melkor and bring the murderer to justice before he ruins more of middle earth, or murders anyone else.

Which is the more responsible action?

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

There's a bit of a running theme in good old J.R.R's works, and that is that members of the same race are equals and cannot kill or enslave each other without considerable just cause.

Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.

As Ruinel puts it: "There was always hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea." This was true from the beginning, even when he started his own themes in the Music.

When he descended into his darkness, he was pursued into Middle earth to have justice done to him, and indeed it was. Many and age of servitude did he endure before he was released into Valinor, and even then, he was watched by the Valar.

Once he destroyed the Two Trees, the Valar were kind of occupied with matters of illumination, and thus were unable to purse Melkor into ME. And after, he was not forgotten, and would have eventually been assailed, but the Noldor somewhat sped up the timetable.

I say again, that if they had just remained in Aman, the Valar could have protected them, and justice would have been done to Morgoth sooner, for the Valar would have been prepared earlier.

They first had to secure the Blessed Realm, thus saving something of the initial paradise before the comeing of Melkor's malice.

[MasterMothra]

There's a bit of a running theme in good old J.R.R's works, and that is that members of the same race are equals and cannot kill or enslave each other without considerable just cause.

Murder and the eventual destruction and enslavement of Middle Earth is just cause for actions by the Valar.

Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.

He was incarcerated before as mentioned in your post.

Once he destroyed the Two Trees, the Valar were kind of occupied with matters of illumination, and thus were unable to purse Melkor into ME.

I dont quite follow what they were occupied with.

I say again, that if they had just remained in Aman, the Valar could have protected them, and justice would have been done to Morgoth sooner, for the Valar would have been prepared earlier.

The Valar would have protected them just as they did Finwe, the Two Trees and the Silmarils? Melkor would not stop in his quest for domination, ever. This is well documented throughout the text. If the Valar thought otherwise their naivity showed no bounds.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

If you would read the various post before these from many different people, you would NEVER SEE THE ARGUEMENT THAT VALINOR IS PERFECTLY SAFE!

Yay Melkor for killing the King and taking the silmarils and destroying the two trees.

So Melkor took the Silmarils. He ALSO took and sacked hundreds of works and cities in Beleriand. He destroyed the two trees. He ALSO destroyed the Lamps of the Valar, in ME. So he Killed the High King of the Noldor in Aman. He ALSO killed the High king of the Noldor in ME, along with countless thousands of Eldar and Edain.

Do the math mate, for christ sake.

Nowhere in Ea is wholly safe from Morgoth.

But putting forth the same argument I have used from the beginning: Compared to Middle Earth, Valinor is easily the safest place for the Eldar to be.

[Eärloth]

Scuse me! Just to interrupt the argument for one brief, shining moment, I wanted to post this:

Originally posted by Valandil
Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

Probably because the Valar are to be looked to as the more forgiving, trusting and overall better beings in terms of their likenesses (or dislikenesses) and compatibility with Melkor; because they were themselves not so vulnerable or understanding of evil - and many of Melkor's intentions based on evil - it would have seemed perfectly fair - and rational - to forgive him and accept him back into their society. Thereafter perhaps it seemed that the Elves took upon themselves the burden of Melkor/Morgoth, receiving no aid from the Valar because of the Kinslaying (and numerous other reasons).

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

quote Glorfindel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote Master Mortha

"He was incarcerated before as mentioned in your post."



Oh, and just by the by, when I said "...thus could not ever be simply enslaved and never be killed.", I did not say that he could not be enslaved, or that he was not enslaved.

I said he could not be "simply" enslaved, and if you had read the full passage of what I wrote instead of attempting to out-argue me on every point (something in which you unfortunatley fail), you would have caught the full meaning of the phrase.

The Valar could not simply walk into Utumno and lead him away into happy exile beyond the walls of the world. Melkor would fight them and Arda would suffer the destruction of the battle. They (the Valar) did not want this to happen, so thus my use of the term "simply enslave".

Enslaving Melkor would have a price.

[MasterMothra]

Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont. I do agree, if the Valar could, they should've attack Melkor before. The 'price' is the same price, before and after. After the price might be even bigger.

Probably, the Elves' purpose by Eru was to be free in ME.
The Valar wanted tpo bring the evles to Aman, and show them what they can have if they come to the 'Blessed Land'. The Valar didn't made the choice to the Elves - the elves decided by themselves. They had free will to stay at ME.
I believe they could also leave Aman if they wanted - but after the death of the two trees, the Valar wanted the elves to stay at Valinor and stay safe until the Valar think of what to do. The Noldor did not agree to stay and left to ME without the agreement of the Valar, and therefore were punished.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont.


Anger, my dear MasterMothra? What anger? I state my belief's with conviction, and back them with precedent where ever possible.

I have support from previous posts from others, I have textual evidence to back my arguement, and I have common sense on my side, sir.

I have no anger because I need none. I have right.

As you say, my opinion is my own, and that is true. but I formulate it from evidence in the text, and from Tolkien's letters, and then from my own knowldege.

All I ever hear from you is speculation, unsupported by fact. We can speculate that Morgoth liked fluffy teddy bears and enjoyed long walks at sunset. Speculation is a waste of space my friend.

If all we have is our opinions, then at least mine is backed up by more than words.

[MasterMothra]

LOL.

My resistance is futile, you are right.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Indeed sir, well said. And indeed, well fought. Nothing better than a good debate.

[Ruinel]

To the opinion that Valinor is not safe, Valinor is an open society. In any open society, you run the risk of being open to evil as well as good. In the case where Melkor caused the death of the trees and Finwe, and the theft of the Silmarils... among other evil acts... it could not have been prevented in Valinor, nor in any other place as open as that.

[Valandil]

In currently re-reading the Sil (don't recall which for sure - this is probably about #3, #4 or #5), I'm struck by how often the Valar had to go to war with Melkor, before the Eldar even came around.

Makes me wonder if they were just plain tired of all the strife in later times when evil reared its head - and they don't seem to react to it very strongly.