The non-existing finger

[Nerdanel]

I'm not sure, maybe this should be on the movie-forum..

But to my question:

My littlebrother, who hasn't read LotR, asked me while watching RotK, if Sauron didn't have to have the Ring on his finger to get all the power? And in that case, how could an eye put a ring on a non-existing finger, if he would have taken the Ring back? I thought a long time, but didn't really come up with a good answer.

So what should I tell my brother?

[Falagar]

Tell your brother that Sauron never was an eye and that the eye in the movie is just a metaphor. ;)

[Nerdanel]

Oh, thanks..:o :o I read LotR quite a while ago..:o :o

[Elf Girl]

Yes. The 'eye of Sauron', while appearing in the books, is a metaphor. In the Third Age Sauron took the form of a tall man robed in black.

[azalea]

I just want to add that there is debate about whether the Eye was real or metaphorical, since I happen to think there was an actual Eye, the eye of Sauron, that Frodo saw in Galadriel's mirror, but not at all as it was portrayed in the movies. IOW, Sauron was in the shape of a man as was mentioned, but his eye was a physical thing, although mysterious in nature.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by azalea
I just want to add that there is debate about whether the Eye was real or metaphorical, since I happen to think there was an actual Eye, the eye of Sauron, that Frodo saw in Galadriel's mirror, but not at all as it was portrayed in the movies. IOW, Sauron was in the shape of a man as was mentioned, but his eye was a physical thing, although mysterious in nature.

I agree with your point. I too think there was an actual Eye. On the other hand, I kinda like the movies representation of it :p

[Almie]

If Sauron had got the Ring back, I think he would once again become so powerful that he could have a shape of a man once again (if he wanted).

The Eye was maybe metaphorical, or something one thought to be seeing when he/she looked at Sauron. I agree it's quite mysterious in nature.

[Falagar]

It may have been the PalantÃ*r Sauron used to look for things. Or it may have been Sauron's actual eye.

[Elf Girl]

From the Letters, Tolkien is discussing possible courses of action had the Ring not been destroyed:

The form that he took [at the end of the Third Age] was that of a man more than human stature, but not gigantic.

[Falagar]

Yes but that stature must have had an eye. ;) Read several similar discussions lately and have seen that quote come up several times.

[samwiselvr2008]

Hmmm, I was wondering about that myself! I think that he was a human, but maybe he had something like the eye in the movie that could see everything, but Sauron had to see through it through something else. Or maybe the eye just ment that there were lots of servants working for him, that would tell him what was happening in different places, thus, he is all seeing. Like the person back at Bree who the hobbits suspected to be working for Sauron, would report back to him about what was happening in that area, and so on.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Falagar
Yes but that stature must have had an eye. ;) Read several similar discussions lately and have seen that quote come up several times.
Yes. I suppose it's possible that his 'Man-form' had red eyes rather like the 'Eye of Sauron'. Hmm. I rather like that idea. A compromise, though I still think it's wholly metaphor.

[Thorin II]

Also, keep in mind that the line in the movie about Sauron not being able to take physical form does not appear in the book. Certainly, Sauron's physical form had an eye (probably two), but I understand the Eye of Sauron to be a metaphor for his attention.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Thorin II
keep in mind that the line in the movie about Sauron not being able to take physical form does not appear in the book.
____________________________

Well, it sort of does, but in a considerably different context and in much earlier times. You're right, I believe, that by the time of The War of the Ring he had again (for at least the third time) reembodied himself.
Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years. (The above occurred, of course, at the end of the Last Alliance war, S. A. 3441).
The Silmarillion, p. 294, Houghton Mifflin, 1977.

It apparently took Sauron about 2,000+ years to reembody himself.
In LOTR Appendix B:
(T. A.) "2060 The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again."

Actually, I have/had the impression Sauron was still in the process of reembodying himself in the late Third Age, but I must have been misled as much as Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh (I doubt PJ has studied Sauron's history that much).

[matthew]

I agree the eye was a sort of metaphor. all the same, i think sauron didnt need to put on his finger to draw power from it. as soon as he had it back he could regain a physical shape.
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film:D

[Falagar]

Originally posted by matthew
I agree the eye was a sort of metaphor. all the same, i think sauron didnt need to put on his finger to draw power from it. as soon as he had it back he could regain a physical shape.
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film:D
Actually his eye (that looked at Frodo) was yellow (rimmed with fire). If it was his physical eye or something else we do not know, but I would guess his physical...

[Wayfarer]

Something else to note is that the Barad Dur was described as having some sort of red light at the top, that was seen to move around something like the beam from a lighthouse (or that's the impression I get). The 'eye of sauron' could have been some sort of magical or mechanical device that he used to augment his farseeing. It seems that he used the palintir for that purpose.

[Twista]

Originally posted by Falagar
It may have been the PalantÃ*r Sauron used to look for things. Or it may have been Sauron's actual eye.


Who has the seven Palantir's out of interest, i just cant think who else?

-Saurumon
-Denethor

Who else?

[Nurvingiel]

Sauron had at least one palantir, and some of them were lost.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by matthew
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film:D
The Eye was yellow, 'rimmed with fire', I believe, but I always imagined it red. PJs eye was orange. (And if someone else wants to say no, it was red, please debate it in the movie forum, not here.) Please forgive my grievous error.

[Wayfarer]

Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

I thought one was placed in a tower at the Grey Havens by Elendil and that stone was later taken into the West?

[Wayfarer]

The white towers were west of the shire and east of the grey havens. :) But that stone was lost to Osse Jone's locker.

[Dúnedain]

I don't think Sauron's finger was ever reformed, because in The Two Towers Gollum makes this statement:

'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.

Now this could have been said in two ways. 1) they were recounting old tales before this, so it could have been Gollum referring to those. 2) Gollum was torchered in Mordor and I believe he even speaks of Sauron being there, which could be why he spoke of only 4 fingers on his hand.

It could go either way. I tried looking for another passage I just read this past week, but I am too lazy to continue looking for it, hehe :p

[Elf Girl]

Assuming he had other fingers he could wear it on those.

[Twista]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Re: The palintirs.

The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying.

But where did the stone go? it must have been the rubble somewhere

[Earniel]

Or fell in the river.

[Twista]

and no picked it out? lol. It must of been worth a furrtune to everyone.

[Earniel]

Well it is the Great River Anduin. I doubt you'd be able to relocate it and dive it up again.

[Twista]

still. get a water creature to get it or something.

[Elf Girl]

And how do you propose to get a fish to bring you up a heavy stone orb that crackles with the power of people seeing out of it? But this is deeply off-topic... a new thread perhaps?

[Thorin II]

Dúnedain - I understand it to be #2; Sauron was never able to reform his missing finger.

[Wayfarer]

Or fell in the river. It fell in the river. You know, that river. The Anduin. The 'Great River'. Yeah. /That/ one.

Here's a question for you all- I take a ball of glass somewhere between two and three feet in diameter and toss it into the Mississippi, are /you/ going to be able to 'just fish it out'.

Now, if that /still/ seems too easy, /this/ river has nary a single dam on it, so the flow of water is going to be tremendous, enough to wash the palintir out to sea rather quickly, the object you're searching for lies amid countless debris and rubble, it probably can't be located by sight in the murky water and, oh, lest I forget to mention, you're trying to do all this at the single most contested spot in the height of a civil war.

Have fun. :rolleyes:

[Elf Girl]

*starts diving for lost PalantÃ*r*

[Twista]

ANYWAYS... back to the topic maybe...

Talking about the ring, where was it i heard that

'if the ring makes you go invisible when you put it on, why doesnt it make the chain go invisible around frodo's neck?' lol

[Wayfarer]

Because the chain is just matter, and the ring didn't work on a purely physical level.

What the ring did, in making a mortal invisible, was push them partially into the spirit or wraith world, so that they couldn't be seen but could still interact. This is also why, for example, Frodo's vision was dark and blurred while he wore the ring.

[ethuiliel]

I haven't read everything here, so I may be repeating something, but this is how I imagined Sauron when I thought about it: Someone with a human-like body (Gollum said something about him having 9 fingers, I think) but who had a very unusual eye. There has to be something about the eye, because it is mentioned several times, and even seen in Galadriel's mirror.

[Attalus]

I have always taken it that Sauron had furnished Barad-dûr with some sort of magical device akin to seat on the Hill of Seeing, Amon Hen, that he used to survey Middle-earth. Obviously he had physical eyes that he formed with his new body, but he lost the ability to look any way he wanted with the downfall of Númenór, whether he had the Ring or not. Oh, and I think the reason so many people think that the Lidless Eye, which I take to be a metaphor for eternal vigilance, not deformity, was red, is that the Orcs of Barad-dûr wore that symbol in red.

[ethuiliel]

Oh, and I think the reason so many people think that the Lidless Eye, which I take to be a metaphor for eternal vigilance, not deformity, was red, is that the Orcs of Barad-dûr wore that symbol in red. Interesting. That makes sense, and it makes it a little easier to understand what the eye it, and why people picture it to be red.

[Ulmo]

The red also could've come from this, when Denethor shows his palantir to Gandalf.

And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered.

Wayfarer is incorrect in one aspect of his statements about the palantiri. Arvedui lost only two of the stones - those originally set at Annúminas and Amon Sûl, as told by the note for 1975 TA in the appendices:

Arvedui drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The palantÃ*ri of Annúminas and Amon Sûl are lost.

The stone of Amon Sûl was moved to Fornost with the other stone when that outpost was destroyed by the Witch-King.

As stated, the Ithil Stone was taken by Sauron in taking over that tower and lost in the destruction of Barad-dur; the stones at Orthanc and Minas Tirith were left in the ownership of Arvedui's heir, Aragorn; and the stone at Osgiliath was lost.

The seventh stone whose fate has not been correctly stated here was Elendil's Stone of Elostirion, the tallest of the towers of Emyn Beraid that Gil-galad built for Elendil (referred to as The White Towers above). This was a special stone, for it only looked West to the Sea and could not be used for communication the way the other stones were. Elendil used it to look West over the Sea:

and thence he would gaze out over the sundering seas, when the yearning of exile was upon him; and it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Masterstone abode, and yet abides.

What happened to this stone? The Encyclopedia of Arda says that it left Middle-earth with Gandalf and company, though I've not been able to find this reference. Should I find it (or any other clues to its fate), I'll post it here later. Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon certainly kept watch over it - it either left Middle-earth with them (if not Gandalf) or was returned to the King of Arnor.

Some posts make it sound questionable that Sauron had a physical figure still. He did, as Tolkien states in Letter 246:

In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the PalantÃ*r Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion, Gandalf also shows that Sauron had a body once again in his comment to Elrond upon return from Dol Guldur:

'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.'

[Melko Belcha]

Many of these quotes have been posted, but this is all the quotes I have found that shows Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

TTT - The Black Gate is Closed
'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum

LotR - Apendix B
2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.'

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #200
After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long time to rebuild, longer than he had done after the fall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of rebuilding after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.

Letters - #246
In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes. The 'eye of Sauron', while appearing in the books, is a metaphor. In the Third Age Sauron took the form of a tall man robed in black.

I too think the eye to be a metaphor. Saruman is referred to several times in the book as the White Hand (capitalized) just as Sauron is referred to as the Great Eye (also capitalized). Both metaphors also double as their emblems which appear on shields and armor. Tolkien also endows the “Eye� with emotions with phrases such as “the malice of the Great Eye�. If the eye is something he’s made or conjured I don’t see how it could contain feelings and/or conscious thought. It really only makes sense as a metaphor in my opinion.


I think what Frodo sees in the mirror IS Sauron’s eye.

“The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat’s�

I think the fire is part of the mirror’s montage of images and it is surrounding the rim of the basin (Galdadriel’s circular mirror) like a border while Frodo sees the eye, but it is not part of the eye itself. That is why the next phrase “but was itself� seems to draw a distinction between the “border� of fire and the vision of the eye.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Ulmo
The seventh stone whose fate has not been correctly stated here was Elendil's Stone of Elostirion, the tallest of the towers of Emyn Beraid that Gil-galad built for Elendil (referred to as The White Towers above). This was a special stone, for it only looked West to the Sea and could not be used for communication the way the other stones were. Elendil used it to look West over the Sea:



What happened to this stone? The Encyclopedia of Arda says that it left Middle-earth with Gandalf and company, though I've not been able to find this reference. Should I find it (or any other clues to its fate), I'll post it here later. Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon certainly kept watch over it - it either left Middle-earth with them (if not Gandalf) or was returned to the King of Arnor.


HA! I knew I was correct about a stone being set. It was actually set in the Tower Hills and it was taken by Cirdan upon the last ship. Here is the quote:

From the Appendices; Appendix A, p. 1018 note 2:

These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left in the Noth was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid (aka on the Tower Hills, the stone was known as The Stone of Elostirion) that looks towards the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until CÃ*rdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left (pp. 44, 106). But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor for ever.

[Ulmo]

it remained there, until CÃ*rdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left

There it is! I was looking all over. Thanks. Not taken by Cirdan on the last ship, but on the Ringbearers' ship (there were still more to leave).

[Nurvingiel]

"Now where did I leave that palantir? Ah, there it is, right beside my keys."
- potentially said by Ulmo

[Bombadillo]

Sauron "poured his evil into the Ring," according to Tolkien. I never did know how literally that should be taken, but I'd think that it garantees an undying connection between Sauron and his One Ring. And since his spirit still existed after his death, he was still alive in the Ring as well. This connection was obvious because, well, destroy the Ring and destroy Sauron.

So to me it would seem that a finger is unnecassary.


A little old and off topic maybe, but there definately was an actual eye of Sauron, because Tolkien himself drew this picture of it for an early LotR box set: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/eyeofsauron.gif
(There's nother thread for this right? I haven't been here in a long time. :) )

[Ulmo]

Sauron used the eye as his symbol too, if you'll recall - that's what Tolkien was drawing, I think ;)

[durin's bane]

I think that the Eye is Sauron's way of symbolizing himself, like Saruman uses the White Hand. I also think that when he has to make a guest appearance, like when Frodo saw him in the Mirror for instance, the Eye disguises himself. But he shows his normal body when talking through a Palantir.

Hey, I got this weird thought while reading all this talk of Sauron's finger and all. Isn't it strange how both Sauron and Frodo lost their finger while wearing the Ring after it was taken from them for good by a corrupted (or corrupted-to-be) being, that died after taking the Ring (either sooner or later)?

[Nerdanel]

Thank you for all the interesting things you've written!:) I promise, I will read LotR again, after finishing silmarillion and the Hobbit.:)

durin's bane, that's an interesting thought! I'm sure there has to be some connection; Tolkien has many hidden things in his book. Though it's a bit out of topic, please discuss and enjoy!:D

[Melko Belcha]

Just found another quote.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.

This comes from after the Fall of Numenor, but before the Last Alliance. We know Sauron had physical form at that time because Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. But it also talks about the Eye of Sauron at the same time as him being in physical form. So the Eye of Sauron was there before the Last Alliance while Sauron was in physical form. Add this with the quotes I gave above where Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Just found another quote.

The Sil - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.

This comes from after the Fall of Numenor, but before the Last Alliance. We know Sauron had physical form at that time because Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. But it also talks about the Eye of Sauron at the same time as him being in physical form. So the Eye of Sauron was there before the Last Alliance while Sauron was in physical form. Add this with the quotes I gave above where Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had a physical form at the time of LotR.

It also states in the appendices:

Second Age:

3319 - Ar-Pharazon assails Valinor. Downfall of Numenor. Elendil and sons escape.
3320 - Foundations of the Realms in Exile: Arnor & Gondor. The Stones are divided. Sauron returns to Mordor.

So he is back in Mordor the following year. It is stated somewhere as well, that it took him about 100 years or so to take form again, which is just in time for the Last Alliance...

[Melko Belcha]

Yes it took Sauron 100 years to reform after the Downfall of Numenor, but the quote above talks about the Eye of Sauron after talking about Sauron taking a new form and taking up the Ring again. It says nothing about the Eye of Sauron when Sauron is still building his new form.

But after he looses the Ring it takes him many long years to take a physical form. When Gandalf tells Elrond about Sauron taking shape again in Dol Guldur it is about 2,000 years after he lost the Ring.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

I don't believe that's accurate. I've read a lot of sources saying that the Palantir at the White Towers was kept there in secret, and went in a ship into the West, I think on Cirdan's ship, but maybe on the ship that bore Galadriel, Gandalf, Frodo, and Bilbo.

Also, just for the record, the Ithil-stone was captured by Sauron when he took Minas Ithil, (later known as Minas Morgul), and the Anor-stone was that in the custody of the Stewards.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh...never mind...looks like everything in my post was already stated...and I even managed to get the ship wrong...:o

But, on to the palantir in the river: It is noteworthy, I think, that the Ring was in the same River (albeit at a "slow" section), and was, obviously, smaller and less weighty, but was not washed away.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by durin's bane
Isn't it strange how both Sauron and Frodo lost their finger while wearing the Ring after it was taken from them for good by a corrupted (or corrupted-to-be) being, that died after taking the Ring (either sooner or later)? Yeah, that is an interesting parallel. I'd never thought about that before.

[Ulmo]

I don't think it's strange or unusual - it's really somewhat expected and natural that those who manage to keep the Ring in their grasp long enough suffer this same fate.

[gandalffan2525]

Here's what i've always thought:

-Sauron had a man-ish phisical form.
-He had the ability of farseeing, which means he could, to an extent, see things that were happening in other places.
-When he looked directly at you (farseeing or otherwise) you could feel his gaze.
-If you tried to look back (farseeing) at him you would see his (for lack of a better term) inner self which was manifested as a flameing eye.
-It was not pleasent.
-Definatly not pleasent.;)

[trolls' bane]

I remember reading somewhere in RotK that the Eye was some sort of window.