Oldest living Elf in ME...

[Dúnedain]

Ok this is an offshoot of a thread that went off topic, lol :p I figured it should continue in it's own thread :D

Here is what people have said so far:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
This is kinda on topic but is Cirdan the oldest Elf in Middle Earth at the time of the WAr of the Ring? (not counting the Avari which Tolkien hardly ever wrote about.)

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hmmm, I would have to say yes to that. I can't think of anyone else older. Galadriel would be next wouldn't she?

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
yeah, Galadriel or Celeborn I suppose

Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, don't forget Celeborn. He could very well have been older than Galadriel.

Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who awoke at lake Cuivenen? It's difficult to beat that. :)

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I think I read somewhere that Cirdan was the only 'original' Elf remaining in ME in the Third Age... I can't be sure, though.

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Wouldn't the fact that Cirdan was the only elf who had a beard be proof enough that he was the oldest living elf in Middle Earth? I thought that only Elves who stayed in Middle Earth would be more suceptable to growing older faster b/c of the "mortality" in Middle Earth vs the "immortality" of Aman. so he would have to be older than Celeborn who didn't have a beard.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
We're really straying from topic here, but didn't Tolkien create the three life cycles of the Elves, to explain away Cirdans beard? I think he forgot at some point that he gave him one.:)

[Dúnedain]

Here is proof that Celeborn is older than Galadriel:

From The Fellowship of the Ring; The Mirror of Galadriel:

'Your quest is known to us,' said Galadriel, looking at Frodo. 'But we will not speak of it more openly. Yet not in vain will it prove, maybe, that you came to this land seeking aid, as Gandalf himself plainly purposed. For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'

So with that said, Celeborn could even be the oldest of the ME Elves since he says "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn"...

Though the only problem with this is that he has a line of Elves before him, so this may be a contradiction on Tolkien's part. Galadhon was Celeborn's father. Galadhon was the son of Elmo, Thingol's brother, and Elmo awoke at Cuiviénen...

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Here is proof that Celeborn is older than Galadriel:



So with that said, Celeborn could even be the oldest of the ME Elves since he says "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn"...

Though the only problem with this is that he has a line of Elves before him, so this may be a contradiction on Tolkien's part. Galadhon was Celeborn's father. Galadhon was the son of Elmo, Thingol's brother, and Elmo awoke at Cuiviénen...
Dawn doesn't necessarily mean "from the beginning", it might well be the dawning of the sun (or just very early).

[brownjenkins]

another, possibly as old as Cirdan...

Lenwë ~ leader of the teleri who went south during their journey west... i don't think his fate is ever discussed, though his son Denthor was killed in beleriand

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Falagar
Dawn doesn't necessarily mean "from the beginning", it might well be the dawning of the sun (or just very early).

I know, that's why I added the confusion later on about his forefathers. Typically though, when "dawn" is spoken of in that context, it usually means the awakening of the Elves. To me it does anyway...But like I said, that would be a contradiction since he is descended from Elmo...

[Arien the Maia]

Did Cirdan awake at Cuivienen? and doesn't Tolkien later on say that Celeborn was born in the Undying Lands and not in Beleriand?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Did Cirdan awake at Cuivienen? and doesn't Tolkien later on say that Celeborn was born in the Undying Lands and not in Beleriand?

It's never said if Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen as far as I know...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
It's never said if Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen as far as I know... I have read it somewhere ... but now I'm unable to find a reference to it, so it might very well be wrong.

If Tolkien didn't say I guess we will never know whether he is older than Celeborn.

Arien, you're right, but personally I think that version is too unfinished to rely on.

[Attalus]

I have always thought that "the days of dawn" referred to the dawning of the Sun, which happened quite late in the First Age, considerably after Galadriel's birth. It says in The Encyclopedia of Arda that Cirdan may have awakened at Cuvienen, but that is hardlay a reliable source.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
I have always thought that "the days of dawn" referred to the dawning of the Sun, which happened quite late in the First Age, considerably after Galadriel's birth. But in his latest writings Tolkien says that Cirdan was alive long before the Teleri came to Aman. HoME 12:It was during the long waiting of the Teleri for the return of the floating isle, upon which the Vanyar and Noldor had been transported over the Great Sea, that Cirdan had turned his thoughts and skill to the making of ships, for he and all the other Teleri became impatient. Nonetheless it is said that for love of his kin and allegiance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost and did not come to the shores to depart from Middle-earth.
It says in The Encyclopedia of Arda that Cirdan may have awakened at Cuvienen, but that is hardlay a reliable source. Then I may have read it there, and I agree, that source isn't reliable. But I still think that he must have been born before the Teleri began their long journey westwards, because I believe the Elves would not get children when travelling.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Cirdan is clearly older than Galadriel, he was already alive and a senior lord (which would stronly suggest his seniority among thoses who started the great journey) when the great jouney reach Beleriand. Almost as certainly he is older than Celeborn. We do not an explicit stament of Cleborn's birth, but the overwhelming probability is that he was born in Belariand after the arrival there, being a few generations down from Thingol's younger brother Elmo, or in an alternate geneology tinkered with by JRRT (and apparently abandoned) from Olwe and born in Valinor.
There may be many unaamed lower class elves older than all of them. Among the Elves, who do not die of medical problems or age, the lower classes likely had a higher survival rate than the nobility, with was more concerned with the predominate hazard to elf life, warfare.

[Dúnedain]

Maybe we should contact Christopher Tolkien to help in our search of the Oldest of Living Elves in ME :D

[Earniel]

Interesting debate. :) Personally I think Cirdan is oldest living elf (goes to show that living next to the sea does improve your heakth :D) of which we know the name. He's named pretty early on in the Silmarillion, when the Sindar and the Falathrim settled in Beleriand and the seashore.

[Captain Stern]

I like to think Cirdan is the oldest of all elves. The first to awake and the last to leave. Kinda brings a tear to your eye.

[matthew]

wow.

I figured Galadriel was the oldest for a long time.
I never heard cirdan awoke at cuivienen but I havent read past home 9.

Although it is possible that some unnamed "lower class" elf lived longer.

[EDITED- for off topic remarks

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Wayfarer]

That Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen is never stated by Tolkien that I recall, but it is often assumed by the reader. You should note that there is a difference.

I'm a bit puzzled by the references to Thingol's younger brother as 'Elmo'. The four original lords of the Eldar were Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe, and Olwe. Elwe later became known as Singollo (greycloak) or Thingol, and remained in Beleriand, while Olwe led the Teleri that migrated to Aman.

I'm not really sure how it would work out that Celeborn (who was living in Doriath when he met Galadriel, correct?) would have been descended from Olwe, who left Middle Earth before Doriath was founded. And since Olwe only hung around for a few centuries, any son he had in Beleriand wouldn't really be old enough to stay behind when the host left.

Am I overlooking something here?


I'm tempted to say that Galadriel wasn't anywhere close to the Eldest of elves, but then again, many of the first few generations in Beleriand were killed, so she's almost certainly the olderst remaining Noldor.

Thranduil's age should be considered- he was the king of the elves in Mirkwood, an area settled during the great journey. He was also Celeborn's kinsman, so there is a chance he is quite old indeed.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer

I'm a bit puzzled by the references to Thingol's younger brother as 'Elmo'.

Yeah... isn't 'Elmo' the cute little red monster, nephew of Grover (the blue monster) on Sesame Street? My kids love him anyway!:D

Hmmmm... *starts thinking how to transfer sons' love of Elmo to love of Tolkien... maybe this little bit of confusion can be useful;) *

[Rían]

(Val - I slip into the kids' room at night, when they're asleep, and whisper in their ears "I love Tolkien!" :D )

[Rían]

PS - nice to see you again, Wayfarer! I hope school is going well.

[Wayfarer]

Well, actually, you see... er... There's a slight glitch in my registration for next year's classes. This /last/ semester went well though. In some ways.

Ehem. Anyway.

On the question of elves, age, and facial hair, I've been wondering- does Ingwe have a beard? I can just picture it- the lord of the Vanyar sitting across from Manwe at dinner, with Brad Pitt lips, Elijah Woods eyes, Fabio hair, and a Grizzly Adams beard. ]:-D

I also wonder whether it's possible that some of the Avari would have outlived all the generations of the Eldar. It's certainly possible, given that they were outside the scope of the great wars.

[Ruinel]

"Elmo"? :confused: eh?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

[Attalus]

Well, I haven't seen anything to shake my conviction that CÃ*rdan was the oldest living Elf in Middle-earth, though I do agree with Wayfarer that Galadriel was the oldest Noldo.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

Thank you for corroborating my info :D

[Wayfarer]

Ah. A younger younger brother. I see. :D

[Rían]

yes, you know- those irritating creations ... (at least acc'd to my older son) ;)

[Thorin II]

I'm under the impression Cirdan is the oldest in ME.

Related to that, is anyone else puzzled by Tolkien's description of Cirdan as having a long beard? Since when do Elves, even really old ones, have beards?

[Wayfarer]

Well, I've never been much for the idea that elves were always babyfaced. I think that it's likely that elves /did/ grow beards, but that they started growing much later than in humans. It's also possible (and likely) that whether or not an elf had a beard was a voluntary decision on their part. They were lords of their own body, after all.

[Turgon_Turambar]

does anyway know how old cirdan was by the time he left ME not an exact age like 10,345 years but roughly. beginning of 1st age to end of 3rd how many years is that?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)
*checks The Sil* ... nothing here
*checks HoMEXI*... ah... here it is... page 350...
...This table gives the descendants of Elwë (Thingol) and his younger brother Elmo, whom it is said that he was "beloved of Elwë with whom he remained." On one side of the table (descendents from Elwë) the wife of Dior Eluchil (Thingol's heir) is Nimloth "sister of Celeborn." Similarly on the other side, Elmo's son is Galaðon, and Galaðon had two sons, Galathil and Celeborn 'prince of Doriath', and a daughter Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluchil. But on the same table Nimloth wife of Dior also appears as the daughter of Galathil (thus in the first case she was the second cousin of Dior, and in the latter the third cousin of Elwing). It is clear from rough pencillings on this page that my father was uncertain about this, and it looks as if Nimloth as niece of Celeborn was his second thought. I referred to this geneology in Unfinished Tales, p. 233, but did not mention the alternative placing of Nimloth as Celeborn's sister.

Hmmm... I'd forgotten that bit. :D

[brownjenkins]

since the rising of the sun and moon it is somewhere around 7,000 years till the grey havens departure... though the length of these years during the 600 of the first age is somewhat disputed, due to changes in the courses of the sun and the moon

before the sun and moon it is even more difficult... some put the time of the elves before the rise of the sun and moon on the order of 4,500 years (see Sil Chronology (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/Silmarillion-Chronology.htm), based upon info from HoME morgoth's ring)

this would put Cirdan at about 11,500, if i did my math right :confused:

[Turgon_Turambar]

Thats pretty damn old. Saurons quite old aswell.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Thats pretty damn old. Saurons quite old aswell.

WEll since Sauron's a Maia, he's the oldest thing on Middle Earth durng the Second and third Ages with the exception of the Wizards since they're Maias too

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
WEll since Sauron's a Maia, he's the oldest thing on Middle Earth durng the Second and third Ages with the exception of the Wizards since they're Maias too Originally said by Gandalf:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Originally said by Gandalf:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda? I don't know, I just quoted it. Gandalf should know though, he is a maia imself after all.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda?

Not to open a classic Tolkien debate, but this could be where Tom Bombadil comes in. It seems that there were some forms of life that pre-date the Ainur entering Middle-Earth. Perhaps some of these things are part of nature itself and existed (in some manner) before Arda was created.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Not to open a classic Tolkien debate, but this could be where Tom Bombadil comes in. It seems that there were some forms of life that pre-date the Ainur entering Middle-Earth. Perhaps some of these things are part of nature itself and existed (in some manner) before Arda was created.

so it would be like Eru created beings before he created the Ainur and Arda?

[Wayfarer]

Or they could have been Ainur that got to Middle Earth before Sauron.

Or they could have been beings in Middle Earth before the Ainur arrived.

Or they could have been creatures that existed before Sauron took bodily form.

[Captain Stern]

He doesn't specifically state that they were creatures, only 'things'...

I tend to see it Thorin II's way.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
He doesn't specifically state that they were creatures, only 'things'... Tell that to the Hebrew translator. It was translated as 'creatures'. I think Tolkien did mean creatures.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Were the Maiar created at the same time as the Valar?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Were the Maiar created at the same time as the Valar?

weren't all the Ainur created at the same time? some of them just weren't as powerful I suppose

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i was always under the impression that the balrogs were maiar too,
sort of lesser servants of morgoth, with sauron as their lieutenant or something ... tell me if i'm terribly mistaken, though

:D

[Bombadillo]

I apoligize to anyone expecting me to contribute to the conversation, but did anyone else imagine Antonio Banderas saying: "As far as I know, I am the oldest, living Aaolve, in the world." :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I don't know, I just quoted it. Gandalf should know though, he is a maia imself after all.

Unless... Gandalf was just pulling their legs! ;)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
i was always under the impression that the balrogs were maiar too,
sort of lesser servants of morgoth, with sauron as their lieutenant or something ... tell me if i'm terribly mistaken, though

:D

Yes, I believe that's correct. The list of Maiar is pretty broad: Sauron, Balrogs, the Istari, Melian (maybe even old Tom B!) ... plus certain others we're specifically told about (like that couple that worked with Ulmo... Uinen and 'whatsisname'...). Even within the Istari, we see a sort of hierarchy - so it wouldn't be surprising if in general the Maiar varied widely in power and position.

[Nurvingiel]

Speaking of old Elves, why was Cirdan the only Elf with a beard?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Speaking of old Elves, why was Cirdan the only Elf with a beard? Wasn't it because Tolkien put a beard on him in LotR, but later decided that Elves do not have facial hair?