The argument of Ungoliant

[Turgon_Turambar]

Fellow mooters i am tryin to settle an argument with a friend of mine about Ungoliant. I am saying that after she drank from the wells of varda and sucked the 2 trees dry she became incredible powerful. i am saying that when at this stage of strenght NO amount of arrows could pierce her armour they would simply bounce off or break. My friend doesnt agree.

Can somebody either agree with me or him.

[Dolenloteiel]

I don't think that Ungoliant was resistant to arrows or that her skin had become an armor. After taking the light from the two trees, Ungoliant swelled into a dark, large spider thingy, and Morgoth became afraid. It is said that when she held Morgoth captive because she couldn't have the Silmarils she "belched dark clouds" it was the darkness that kept her safe, and terribly evil. Yavanna was afraid the Silmarils would "dissapear into nothingness" if Morgoth handed them over. It wasn't an armor, it was a darkness that put fear and terror into the hearts of the elves, and the Valar, they couldn't strike back with arrows and such. Hope that answers your question.

[Nerdanel]

Dolenloteiel, I think your answer makes sence. That's how I understood it too.

[Turgon_Turambar]

i thought that becuase it says in lord of the rings books that shelob had a sort of armour for a shell and only her belly was ''soft'' and as Ungoliant was no doubt much larger making her shell more thicker. I still think she was impenetrable.

[Lord Manafirogh]

haha! lol take it like a man. ok lets put it this way. would 1000 arrows kill ungolian? thank u

[Dolenloteiel]

I'm not really sure. Possibly. Good argument, Turgon. I guess it may be a combination of both. Tolkien emphasizes that her darkness was terrible, I don't remember an elf that struck back, or a Valar, only that Orome and Tulkas pursued Ungoliant and Morgoth all throughout Valinor. I couldn't say.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Can someone find me the bit that says Ungolian cant be hit by arrows? If morgoth can feel pain i dont see how she cant be killed by arrows. Her darkness is black smoke. smoke doesnt block arrows. its not like shes got fire around her body that she can burn the arrows before they hit her. shes just a bugger version of Shelob and happen to get biger wen she sucked the tress. I know shes powerful but she aint valar so she can be killed. unless some1 can show me evidence from the book that it says she cant be killed by arrows or by stabing her or wotever this argument is over.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I haven't found a definitive answer. However, in the Silmarillion it's strongly implied that she could be hurt by the balrogs flaming whips, which implies a (relatively) soft body and not hard armor, but , on the other hand, it's possible she had a tough, leatheryish skin.
Hmm. I suppose, as Frodo observed about the Elves, if asked for counsel I prefer to say both no and yes.:)

This may be a relevant Ungoliant citation:
With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her".

[Lord Manafirogh]

Nah im not convinced i still think she can be killed by archers. aim for the head and mouth. Smoke isnt body armour, black clouds dont stop arrows. i know shes strong but she aint valar just an over grow spider, bigger version of shelob.

[Turgon_Turambar]

i dont care Ungoliant is strong. If she could ''withstand'' the whips of the Balrogs long enough to escape it must mean her hide was pretty dam hard. Mr.Feanor oh mightiest of the Noldor was killed by them.......you work it out. If 1 arrow cant pierce 1000 arrows wouldnt, it would be like shooting a brick wall. Maybe if you shot her in the eyes enough times to blind her????

[Lord Manafirogh]

i didnt say shes not powerful. but she aint got bullet proof vest. lol shes just a normal evil big spider. she might have strong skin but its not wall or metal to stop arrows. 1000 arrows are too much even for morgoth. arrows can peirce through some metal, unless ungolian has metal skin i dout she cant be killed by arrows.

[Sister Golden Hair]

i know shes strong but she aint valar just an over grow spider, bigger version of shelob.Doesn't it say somewhere that Ungoliant was a Maia? Perhaps in the HoMe, can't remember.

[Lord Manafirogh]

i thought none knew where she came from.

[Turgon_Turambar]

She was a corrupted mair spirit brought for the service of Morgoth but because she was so powerful she rathered to be her own mistress than serve Morgoth so she went to Avathar.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The Silmarillion entry seems to be indicative, but not definitive, about Ungoliant's origin. It's one of Tolkien's 'stories believed by" a given group. Perhaps like the varied origins attributed to orcs.


The Elder knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness

[Lord Manafirogh]

That doent answer alot. Maia cant leave Ea right but they can lose their body form? meaning some1 can destroyed their body? anyway thats another argument. i just wanna know if she can be killed by archers yes or no.

[Turgon_Turambar]

I will stand firm and say NO only if the arrows hit her in the eyes then she'll be blinded and run away.

[Lord Manafirogh]

LOL. she aint got bullet proof vest and i stand "firm" with that. lol

[Dolenloteiel]

Alrighty, I HAD to do this! *Whips out trusty Tolkien Encyclopedia*

UNGOLIANT - Spirit of evil. Ungoliant may have been one of the Maiar corrupted by Melkor, but in Arda she served only herself. A creature of darkness, Ungoliant assumed a huge spider form and dwelt in a dark ravine in Avathar. Yet she desired and hated light, and she agreed to help Melkor poison the Two Trees, Ungoliant came to Ezellohar, where she drained the Trees of their sap, poisoned them, and drank the Wells of Varda dry. The pursuit of Oromë and Tulkas was stymied by the Unlight, and Ungoliant and Melkor escaped to Middle Earth. There, in Lammoth, Ungoliant demanded the gems which Melkor had stolen from Formenos. She devoured them and grew larger and darker, and she attacked Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils. Driven off by the Balrogs, Ungoliant fled to Nan Durgotheb, where she bred with creatures there to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders. It is said that she later went far south, where in her last hunger she devoured herself.

*whew* She could have been defeated, I'm sure, but the fact the Tolkien doesn't mention anything about arrows, it's hard to say. Above it says "...to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders..." Could Shelob have been more... ummm durable, I guess than Ungoliant?

[Lord Manafirogh]

Thats information i already know. like i've said before shes just a bigger more evil shelob and i dont see hoe she could stop arrows.

[Wayfarer]

Who says she would need to /stop/ the arrows?

You need to think this through. Melkor, in his physical incarnation of Morgoth, was compared to a mountain. He was huge. He was enormous. And he was powerful. Physically, the only being who had ever matched him at this point was Tulkas, the Vala who's dominion was in strength of body.

Now, knowing all that, consider this- Ungoliant is big enough to scare him. She had just devoured the two trees, and the hoard of the greatest jewelsmiths of all time. Even if the valar had been able to find her, their weapons would have had little chance of piercing her hide, let alone striking deep enough to damage any vital organs. All of them together might have had a chance, but it would have been iffy.

[Lord Manafirogh]

lets put it in other words. we were arguing (me and a mate) weather ungoliant could come into a stronghold say in dorthonion where the sons of Finarfin dwelled and destroye the village with a few other creatures with her spiders etcs. Now say the elves had at least 1000 archers and spear men etc because you would know they have since its a strong hold. Could they kill ungolian with arrows and Spears?
I dont think Ungoliant was that strong that she could take on Valar. you exagerating too much. Tulkas with orome could beat her.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Does any one know for sure i big Ungoliant is? I always got the image she was around 2 metres tall because wen she sucked the trees i got the feeling she could only reach down the trunks but then again those trees were big. Roughly i got the picture of her in my head as about a size of a room. (not a huge room)
Id say she was around 2m tall and 3m long. Then after she sucked the trees i think she probably got bigger but i dout she got twice as big as that. I think when they desciribe moroght as a tower its more of a metaphor. Any one know how big she is?

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Melkor, in his physical incarnation of Morgoth, was compared to a mountain.

I think this was meant metaphorically; it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be that kind of huge. If nothing else, a sword-fight with Fingolfin would be kinda ridiculous.

That said, I agree with your point. If Ungoliant could scare Morgoth, I don't think any number arrows would take her down.

[Lord Manafirogh]

That said, I agree with your point. If Ungoliant could scare Morgoth, I don't think any number arrows would take her down
Thats silly, who says morgoth could lose his body by being hit by many arrows? she might have scared morgoth but that doesn't mean anything. who knows maybe morgoth was scared of sypiders no matter what their size was. I dont see how she could possible not die from being hit by a thousand arrows, bleeding to death. shes a living thing, she can die.
Another thing did she stay big even after she drunk from the trees? i mean even after years she stayed big? I dout she got that big anyway. i got a picture of morgoth and ungoliant be the tress and they dong look that big to me. they reach up to tree trunks, about 2-3 metres tall i'd say. morgoth himself was about twice has big as fingolfin.

[Turgon_Turambar]

thats bull**** . it says morgoth was like a bloomin tower. He casted a shadow over Fingolfin which means he was more than twice the size. The pic youve got is lame or just that artists impression of them.

Who said the 2 trees werent the size of redwoods????

[Lord Manafirogh]

I know for a fact moroght couldn't have been biger then those trees. and ungoliant. he was roughly max 3 times taller then fingolfin. wen he tolkien says like a tower its a metaphor/simile or have u never heard of those? he cant have been that big. when beren went to take the silmaril he just reached up and took the silmarils from the crow. he was big but not massive. a tower is tooo big.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
thats bull**** . it says morgoth was like a bloomin tower. He casted a shadow over Fingolfin which means he was more than twice the size. The pic youve got is lame or just that artists impression of them.

Who said the 2 trees werent the size of redwoods????
And wether or not his shadow is cast upon Fingolfin depends on where the sun is, not how big you are (though of course you have to be bigger than the person.

[Turgon_Turambar]

Beren didnt jus reach up
morgoth was sittin in a chair beren climbed up and got it.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Beren didnt jus reach up
morgoth was sittin in a chair beren climbed up and got it.
Knowing Morgoth, it was probably a really big throne.

[Lord Manafirogh]

If morgoth could be woken up by the little piece of broken knife then 1000 arrows would destroy his body. too many wholes in him.

[Lord Manafirogh]

even that little broken knife hurt him, let alone 1000 arrows going at him. i ment holes not

[Wayfarer]

I dont see how she could possible not die from being hit by a thousand arrows The same way you could not die after being hit by 1000 rubber bands or bb-shots. If one of them isn't enough to pierce your skin, then it doesn't matter how many you get hit with, now does it?

And in relation to Morgoth's size- /Even/ if we limit it to three times the height of Fingolfin, then that's at least 21 feet tall. Probably closer to 25. And he could have easily been larger.

That makes ungoliant at this point in the 30-foot range. Large enough to take out a good-sized army.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
And in relation to Morgoth's size- /Even/ if we limit it to three times the height of Fingolfin, then that's at least 21 feet tall. Probably closer to 25. And he could have easily been larger.

That makes ungoliant at this point in the 30-foot range. Large enough to take out a good-sized army.

This seems more reasonable to me. Normal armies (ie, none of the great heroes present) wouldn't stand a chance against Ungoliant.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I want evidence? where does it say ungoliant cant be pierced by arrows show me!! stop making things up i want facts. overgrown spider that all she is. wot so great about her? wot has she done? nothing but drink from trees and eat herself.

[Wayfarer]

Hello? *knocks on Manafirogh's head* ;) It doesn't need to say that- we're deducting based on reasonable assumptions.

If Ungoliant was a 30-foot high spider, then no number of arrows could possibly kill her. They would never be able to pierce deep enough through her thick hide to hit something vital.

[Lord Manafirogh]

i ment where does it say shes 30 foot????????!!!

[Wayfarer]

Reasonable assumptions, remember? We take Morgoth's size in relation to an elf, then a size for Ungoliant that would be enough to pose a real danger to him.

But that is neither here nor there. Even if Ungoliant was significantly smaller, arrows would not have been able to pierce deep enough to cause a lethal wound.

[Lord Manafirogh]

she would simply bleed to death. morgoth could be hurt by arrows most probably and unless i see evidence im convienced 1000 arrows would kill her.

[Wayfarer]

You don't seem to understand the dynamics of the situation. To a creature 20-30 feet tall, a thousand arrows would be like a thousand pinpricks. They would hurt, yes, but there wouldn't be enough bleeding to cause any appreciable weakness, let alone death.

[Lord Manafirogh]

EVIDENCE that ungoliant is 30 feet. and quates from tolkien books oher wise i wont be conveinced.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
EVIDENCE that ungoliant is 30 feet. and quates from tolkien books oher wise i wont be conveinced. I don't believe that Tolkien states in any of the books the exact size of Ungoliant. The text does indicate that she grew in great size when she ate and that she always hungered for more. So, the logical assumption is, that she was always hungry and eating, which means she was always growing. Now, was her expansion in size temporary? Did she shrink back to a smaller size after digestion? What? I have to agree with Wayfarer here. Nomatterwhat, she was large and 1000 arrows would not kill her, and after a good meal of elf, gems, trees, or whatever, she was even larger than the Tolkien average spider.

[Lord Manafirogh]

i dissagree. clearly there is no quotes saying that a arrow could not pierce her body and that she was 30 feet. i do agree she was not an average spider like shelob but she cant have been more then twice her size and i some how dout that 1000 arrows hitting her body which at least 50 would hit her head cannot kill that. unless some one can give some evidence that she could not be killed by arrows i cannot be convienced. Say they were aiming for her head and legs even there the arrows could not peirce and cause her to die from losing blood and blinded possibly by arrows on her eyes? i dont think ur concedering how much 1000 arrows are. 100 arrows on her head would totally destroye her head. say the other 900 hit her body.

[Wayfarer]

That's all good and well, but you haven't given any reasons for thinking that- just arbitrary statements. There are logical reasons for thinking Ungoliant would have been able to weather if not shrug off such an attack.

Shelob, one of Ungoliant's descendants, had a hide so thick that she was well-nigh invulnerable to attack. The only time she was ever wounded was by throwing her weight down onto the point of a sword.

Taking the eminently reasonable assumption that Ungoliant was much larger and more powerful than Shelob, I don't see any reason to think that arrows would somehow magically pierce her incredibly thick hide.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Her head isn't protected. her eyes are vunrable to arrows there she would be blinded by arrows and would know wot she was doing. If the archers were good enough and aimed for her head or mouth which isnt too hard because she has a big head anyway, she would be blinded and bleed to death. Im convienced. For me ungoliant has done nothing but drink form helpless trees and grow into a big fat spider. The only thing good she did was scare morgoth and who knows maybe morgoth was scared of spiders :).

[Turgon_Turambar]

when dragons are at full strenght of hide arrows cant pierce them (except for smaug who had a weakspot). And tolkien says that unlike dragons Shelob had no weakspot so even she couldnt be pierced by an arrow. So Ungoliant who was much more larger and powerful would never be hurt by such a feeble attack to her.

[Turgon_Turambar]

and no doubt ungoliant would be smart enough to protect her eyes with her forelegs as i reckon that would be her only weakspot. As for her mouth it was more of a beak as hard as steel.