Good thing that Celegorm was there!!

[Maedhros]

From the Published Silmarillion
Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains. Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
Many other words he spoke, as potent as were long before in Tirion the words of his father that first inflamed the Noldor to rebellion. And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

It sounded a little bad when you first read this but, imagine if Celegorm and Curufin were not there and that Finrod would have gone forth with an army of Nargothrond towards Angband. What hope would they have had against Morgoth? If the combined forces of Fingon and Maitimo could not win the day against Angband what could Nargothrond have done?
I know that the population of Nargothrond was the biggest of any Ñoldorian kingdom but still, what hope did they have?

Good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there.:eek:

[brownjenkins]

maybe... though the ulimate fate of the people of nargothrond may have been even worse than a valiant final attack upon angband would have been at that time

i always thought the elves would have been better served with a true united assault on angband immediately after dagor-nuir-giliath... something i think fëanor would have insisted upon had he survived... though it is highly unlikely that he would have been able to get many behind him on the attempt

[Lefty Scaevola]

Disagree completely, Maedhros.
Finrod would not comtemplate an insane assualt on Amgband, nor is there any suggestion that he would, but the forces of his Kingdom would have been very useful to take back the Minas Tirith and the pass of Sirion, thus allowing a safe passage of a covert expedition of Beren, Luthian, and support toward Angband, similat to the one they did use, but stronger, less risky, and better supported. If Luthian and Huan could take Minas Tirith but sorcery and pesronal power, and organized expedition wisely designed could do so, without loss of Finrod and his best nobles.
Rhis would have also tremdnous strtegic advantages of holding the pass, blocking Morgoths agents from using it, and renewed communication with Hithlum. Note than Morgoth was again in a rebuliding period, having had his armies 3 years ealier again smashed, when he attacked Hithlum from the East and North and "Hurin...drov the orcs with heavy slaughter from the Ered Wethrin and pursued themthat far across the sands of Anfauglith" and in the north "..the orc broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains". This following the sluahter of the 4th battle and then the debacle in north Brethil. Sauron was on his own in Minas Tirith, with little support available from Angband , and no prospect of a major expedition to again take Minas Tirith if it fell to Finrod. All in all a tremdous strnghtening of the Edalrin position would have resulted during the build up toward the 5th battle. Also without the grivences against Celegom and Curufin, Nargothrond would have participated in the fith battle to freat effect in a near run battle, to much greater effect than being uselessly slaugter when alone later (and likely still being around at such later time, with allies). AND Gwindor would have been with Nargotrhond's host Likely near the pass of Sirion on in Dorthonian, or in any case not conveniently palce to see the torture of Gelmir, and precipitate a premature advance.
I think without Curufin and Celgorn at Nargothrond the Eldarin & Edain kingdoms would have lasted at least a whole another generation fo of orc growing and war with Morgoth.
You need to veiw these individual incidents in the contest of the whole.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
What hope would they have had against Morgoth? If the combined forces of Fingon and Maitimo could not win the day against Angband what could Nargothrond have done?
I know that the population of Nargothrond was the biggest of any Ñoldorian kingdom but still, what hope did they have? I think they may have done a lot. And even if there was not much hope - still I feel they should have come forward and joined the Union, for the case of freedom and friendship. Freedom does not come by itself, it takes an effort to achieve. What did they gain from staying behind? Only a few years, before their realm was wiped out.

On a side note: Celegorm and Curufin was also partly responsible for Doriath's absence from the battle. If they had restrained themselves Thingol may have gone to war. And the joined forces of Doriath + Nargothrond could have made a difference, no?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yep, Doriath would have added much strength, but it is very doubtful they would have gone in with the Union Maedhros, even with the additiol insults of C & C's behavior toward Luthian.

[Maedhros]

Finrod would not comtemplate an insane assualt on Amgband, nor is there any suggestion that he would, but the forces of his Kingdom would have been very useful to take back the Minas Tirith and the pass of Sirion, thus allowing a safe passage of a covert expedition of Beren, Luthian, and support toward Angband, similat to the one they did use, but stronger, less risky, and better supported. If Luthian and Huan could take Minas Tirith but sorcery and pesronal power, and organized expedition wisely designed could do so, without loss of Finrod and his best nobles.
Rhis would have also tremdnous strtegic advantages of holding the pass, blocking Morgoths agents from using it, and renewed communication with Hithlum. Note than Morgoth was again in a rebuliding period, having had his armies 3 years ealier again smashed, when he attacked Hithlum from the East and North and "Hurin...drov the orcs with heavy slaughter from the Ered Wethrin and pursued themthat far across the sands of Anfauglith" and in the north "..the orc broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains". This following the sluahter of the 4th battle and then the debacle in north Brethil. Sauron was on his own in Minas Tirith, with little support available from Angband , and no prospect of a major expedition to again take Minas Tirith if it fell to Finrod. All in all a tremdous strnghtening of the Edalrin position would have resulted during the build up toward the 5th battle. Also without the grivences against Celegom and Curufin, Nargothrond would have participated in the fith battle to freat effect in a near run battle, to much greater effect than being uselessly slaugter when alone later (and likely still being around at such later time, with allies). AND Gwindor would have been with Nargotrhond's host Likely near the pass of Sirion on in Dorthonian, or in any case not conveniently palce to see the torture of Gelmir, and precipitate a premature advance.
I think without Curufin and Celgorn at Nargothrond the Eldarin & Edain kingdoms would have lasted at least a whole another generation fo of orc growing and war with Morgoth.
You need to veiw these individual incidents in the contest of the whole.
1. It is interesting to note that while Morgoth's armies were in a period of strengthening, it is noteworthy to note that the forces of the Eldar (Ñoldor in especific) were still recovering from the Dagor Bargollach too, and while an inventive attack on Minas Tirith could have succeeded, it could have moved the forces of Morgoth to retake it again.
2. And still, there was the question of obtaining the Silmaril from Morgoth. Having hypotetically Minas Tirith is good and dandy but the objective is to have the Silmaril. With an army, there is almost zero chance that Beren and Lúthien would go to Angband in secret to retrieve it. My friend has completely forgotten about the quest to obtain the Silmaril.
3. While it is true that Morgoth's armies were weaker, that is also true of that of the Eldar, but I would bet that Morgoth's armies would replenish their numbers quicker than that of the Eldar.
4. Imagine this, that somehow the armies of Nargothrond would have prevailed and obtained the Silmaril, what would have prevented the Sons of Fëanor from attacking such a host themselves in order to regain the Silmaril. If that would have happened, the possibility of a future Ñoldorian alliance would be almost zero.

Again, good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there. Can you imagine the sons of Fëanor laying waste to Nargothrond for the Silmaril.

[Artanis]

Dang - I have misread your first post, I thought you were talking about the Nirnaeth. I think I'll keep quiet for a while.
*takes frying pan from Falagar and smacks head*

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
*takes frying pan from Falagar and smacks head*

Hey! Go easy on Falagar's head!!!:D

[Maedhros]

Dang - I have misread your first post, I thought you were talking about the Nirnaeth. I think I'll keep quiet for a while.
You misread the opening post?:eek:

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hey! Go easy on Falagar's head!!!:D :p
I should have smacked him too - to get him out of his Finrod-loving mode. :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You misread the opening post?:eek: Yes. At least I think so. I don't trust myself right now. Everything I do tonight ends up wrong. :(

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
:p
I should have smacked him too - to get him out of his Finrod-loving mode. :D Oh really? Well, that just goes to show you what you know missy.:D

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Artanis
:p
I should have smacked him too - to get him out of his Finrod-loving mode. :D
One more smack like that and I'll end up as a Finarfin-fan! :p

[Artanis]

*smack*!
:D

[Maedhros]

One could consider too that if it wasn't for Celegorm and Curufin, our estemeed Finrod Felagund would have died in another way, probably later.
I wonder if a couple of more years of living for FF would have been a good thing.:confused:

[Willow Oran]

Even after reading your arguments in favor of Celegorm and Curufin I still fail to see how their meddling in Nargothrond caused any good at all. They caused the people of Nargothrond to turn against Finrod, prompting him to go off on what was basically a suicide mission, which if he had gained the necessary support could have been succesful. Furthermore, they delayed Luthien's attempt to rescue Beren and thus Finrod. If they hadn't delayed her and concealed the news that Finrod and Beren had been captured then it might have been possible for Luthien and Orodreth to rescue more of the twelve who set out alive.
Their actions did nothing but to stir up trouble and renew hostilities between the different Elven nations. If they had just kept their mouths shut then the elves would have more united in later wars, and the quest of the silmaril would have been a great deal less romantic but probably would have been less tragic as well.

All this is not to say that your arguments are bad, they're actually quite good considering the topic. But I really do not like Celegorm or Curufin much and I cannot find their actions to be good no matter how hard I look.

[Maedhros]

They caused the people of Nargothrond to turn against Finrod, prompting him to go off on what was basically a suicide mission, which if he had gained the necessary support could have been succesful. Furthermore, they delayed Luthien's attempt to rescue Beren and thus Finrod. If they hadn't delayed her and concealed the news that Finrod and Beren had been captured then it might have been possible for Luthien and Orodreth to rescue more of the twelve who set out alive.
Nargothrond hope against Angband was hopeless. The failure or not to rescue Finrod is a small thing (except to SHG), but remember that had NOTHING to do with regaining the Silmaril.
Remember that if not for Celegorm and Curufin, Huan would not have help her the same way.
Subterfuge was the only way to get the silmaril, not an open war.

[Maedhros]

Another point to consider is the Oath. What if by some coincidence, the hosts of Nargothrond were able to regain the Silmaril. Who is to say that the Fëanorians would found out and ask for the Silmaril to them. Can you imagine such a war, Nargothrond vs the 7 sons of Fëanor?

Now that would be divisive, and FF would not stand a chance against his cousin Maitimo.

[Sister Golden Hair]

and FF would not stand a chance against his cousin Maitimo.Says you. :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Another point to consider is the Oath. What if by some coincidence, the hosts of Nargothrond were able to regain the Silmaril. Who is to say that the Fëanorians would found out and ask for the Silmaril to them. Can you imagine such a war, Nargothrond vs the 7 sons of Fëanor?But do you really think Finrod would have claimed the Silmaril(s)?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
But do you really think Finrod would have claimed the Silmaril(s)? Absolutely not. I don't think Finrod had any desire to win, or posess a Silmaril. Good question. What about it Meadhros?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I rather doubt it. While they yet prosecuted the war on Morgoth, the Oathtakers made no attempt to seize the Silmaril from Thingol beyond 'proud and threatening words. Nor would they have the power to do so, either form Doriath or Nargothrond (even given your unfounded assupmtion that the Beren Luthian and the Silmaril would dwell there). No allies from the Union of Maedhros would march with them against either Kingdom, and until Doriath was otherwise destroyed (and the Girdel gone), as in the narative, they would have a hard time deploying what forces they had to West Beleriand. Try marching, with inferior forces past a cranky Thingol who had his magic barrier to protect his forces and mask his movements, as well as much superior numbers (but less sell armed and amored). Nargothrond was itself well fortified, almost certainly since the Brogollach had supirior numbers to the Oathtakers who were badly hurt in that battle and driven off their lands. It has Nolderin warriors, arm, and armor, and was allied to the Sindar in west Beleriand. The Oathtatker would lose there either before or after the Nirnaeth. They we preety much limited to to dealing with the leftovers after someone else had smash either Doriath or Nargothrond.

[Maedhros]

But do you really think Finrod would have claimed the Silmaril(s)?
There was no need to, Finrod had given an oath, and if Beren would have not given the Sil, FF had to protect him because of the Oath.
Notice that I didn't say an attack on Nargothrond rather an attack on their forces, which wouldn't have done any good have they stayed in Nargothrond.

It's funny, all this stuff and zero ideas as to how the might of Nargothrond would have helped Beren and Lúthien gain a Silmaril.

[Lefty Scaevola]

except this:

"Finrod would not comtemplate an insane assualt on Amgband, nor is there any suggestion that he would, but the forces of his Kingdom would have been very useful to take back the Minas Tirith and the pass of Sirion, thus allowing a safe passage of a covert expedition of Beren, Luthian, and support toward Angband, similat to the one they did use, but stronger, less risky, and better supported."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There was no need to, Finrod had given an oath, and if Beren would have not given the Sil, FF had to protect him because of the Oath.True enough. But Beren's aim was to bring a Silmaril to Thingol, not to keep for himself. Once the Silmaril was taken from Angband, Beren would have taken the jewel to Doriath by the fastest way. Then Fëanor's sons must have made an assault upon him before he reached the girdle. Would they have managed to do so in time, if they believed his quest to be hopeless?
It's funny, all this stuff and zero ideas as to how the might of Nargothrond would have helped Beren and Lúthien gain a Silmaril. I see your point. But you bring up so many interesting stray questions yourself, see. :)

[Maedhros]

Perhaps, one can utilize the similitude found in the rebellion of the Ñoldor in this case.
It was the best possible thing for ME for the Ñoldor to revolt and go fight Melkor.
Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

Perhaps too, it was the best thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there at that time because while their deeds were not good, the outcome of their events achieved the seeds of the ultimate downfall of he, who arises in Might.

[Elemmírë]

*bump*

Just a couple of comments. :)

Actually, I think Maedhros might have a point. It seems to me that Finrod was planning some sort of crazy assault on Angband. From the Grey Annals:

But he kept his oath, and would have mustered all his host for the service of Beren, vain though all his strength must be in such a venture.

Wild, reckless, and suicidal. Seems almost a requirement of being in the House of Finwë, doesn’t it? ;) Of course, it’s impossible to know what the outcome of such a venture would have been. LotR tells us that even the craziest of plans can succeed…

Though, as horrible as it sounds, I don’t see how it could have been worse for Nargothrond if the host had been lost. After all, the fighting host and the entire population are two different things. Gwindor never would have brought any force to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which would have probably been better… Turin’s stay in Nargothrond would have been much different also, and I can’t see that story playing out in the same manner.

The failure or not to rescue Finrod is a small thing (except to SHG)...

Well… to me too. And, I’d hazard to guess, to much of Beleriand. He was hardly a minor player in the politics of Beleriand. Who else had the desire – much less ability – to cooperate with just about all the different people and races?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Then Fëanor's sons must have made an assault upon him before he reached the girdle. Would they have managed to do so in time, if they believed his quest to be hopeless?
I very much doubt that. Beren had evaded the capture of Morgoth servant's for quite a long time. If he can do that then I'd guess he could evade the capture of the Fëanorians long enough to get to Doriath.

[Attalus]

I, too, think that a woodsman like Beren would have found it easy enough to evade the sons of Fëanor, even if they had known of the success of his quest and conducted a search for them. It is hard to imagine that the defeat of the army of Nargothond would have been nearly as bad as what Glaurung did to them, and it never would have happened if Finrod had still been King, because he was wise enough not to listen to Turin. Dumb butt. Be that as it may, I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.

[Elemmírë]

Be that as it may, I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.

I second that. :evil:

Could you imagine Celegorm as King of Nargothrond? Orodreth was hardly a model alternative, but at least he wasn't eagerly seeking war against Doriath... And Thingol was about ready to make war on a Feanorian Nargothrond too...

Good thing Celegorm and Curufin got kicked out, I say, before they managed to make matters even worse...

[Embladyne]

I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.As much as I try to have an open mind...I just can't see any of their actions as beneficial. I wish they had died sooner.

[Elemmírë]

As much as I try to have an open mind...

Why bother?

[Embladyne]

Why bother?good point. I just like to be able to say "I tried"...but then that means I have to say "I failed" :p