Does Arwen have some kind of deadly disease? [Archive]

Sister Golden Hair

12-21-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
"Arwen is dying"
Whatever does he mean?

I understand that in marrying Aragorn she relinquishes her immortality, but she doesn't die within a few days, does she? Well, that is one of the more stupid elements they threw into the movie. They tied Arwen's life force to the Ring of Power, so now, coupled with her choice of mortality and the power of the Ring, she was dying, until the distruction of the Ring was completed.:rolleyes:

That is so stupid to me. Why was her life force tied to the Ring? Why not Galadriel or Elrond? They had two of the rings of power. If they had to put such a stupid element in the movie, wouldn't they have been the better choices? But then again, why do that at all?:rolleyes:

Lizra

12-21-2003, 12:54 PM

Since I haven't seen the movie yet...."Really!"

Yup, sounds dumb! :D They have a poor track record when it comes to Arwen. :(

Thuringwethil

12-21-2003, 02:11 PM

it made sense, but not a lot of it. It was just supposed to make it MORE SUSPENSEFUL OMG ARAGORN MIGHT NOT SEE HER AGAIN OMGOMGOMGOMG WAT IF THEY DONT DESTROY TEH RING !!11!! OMG

Something like that.

Almie

12-21-2003, 03:17 PM

When I saw the movie my initial thought was that she was dying of sorrow. Elves can die because of great sorrow, and her forbidden love could have been the source of that sorrow.

That was what I thought, anyway, but I'm not sure if that was meant that way.

Dúnedain

12-21-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Almie
When I saw the movie my initial thought was that she was dying of sorrow. Elves can die because of great sorrow, and her forbidden love could have been the source of that sorrow.

That was what I thought, anyway, but I'm not sure if that was meant that way.

Wow, that's actually a pretty good point, never thought og it that way...

Bregalad

12-29-2003, 01:37 AM

I agree with Sister Golden Hair on this one. They tied Arwen's life force to the ring of power. In all the seven hells, why??? Did they think Aragorn needed some additional incentive to back the Frodo goes to Mt. Doom ploy? He seemed committed enough to me. Did they think, since they've made Elrond so anti-Aragorn, that he needed some reasoning to take the sword to Aragorn, since in the movie he didn't already have it? I thought this was unneccessary. Perhaps they wrote themselves into a corner with the changes and felt some explanation was needed.

Khamûl

12-30-2003, 02:51 AM

I had this same question and someone explained it to me much the same way Almie did: If the Ring is not destroyed, then inevitably Sauron will get it. Aragorn will fight to the death, and if Sauron has the Ring, that pretty much means that Aragorn is meat. Arwen would be completely heartbroken about not being with Aragorn and die. It's an indirect thing.

However, after this was proposed to me, I watched the movie again. If this was the writers' intention, they should have made it clearer. It seems to me that because the Ring hasn't been destroyed, Arwen is dying. I seem to recall that while she's laying there, she says something along the lines of "I wish I could have seen him again." They really made it seem like she had a direct relationship to the Ring.

Maciliel

12-30-2003, 10:49 AM

Hi folks (and HI! SGH!). I don't post here much, but I'm not new to Tolkien or the PJ movies.

Upon seeing the film the second time this element was not as jarring to me as it was the first time and in fact, even made sense.

In the scene where Arwen drops the book and then Elrond comes to her it seemed to me that this is the moment when her choice becomes fully manifest and her body becomes mortal. She seems to sense a change within herself, which is why she drops the book. Elrond comes and also seems to notice the change in her. He takes her hands with such concern and comments that they are cold and realizes that indeed his beloved daughter will never sail unto the West--she is bound by the Choice of Luthien.

At the moment she assumes mortality, Arwen's fate becomes truly tied to the Ring in the way that it is for all mortals and that it would not be if she were an Elf. And if Aragorn, Frodo and the forces of good do not prevail, she will live out whatever might be left of her mortal life in a world consumed by evil. And this without the hope of ever being reunited with her family in Valinor, or they with her--a future of unimaginable heartbreak for Elrond and her family.

And if Aragorn falls, and they are never married, there is an even greater chance that she will die alone and in great torment. Elrond had already had his wife sail West before him because she could not endure the memory of her torment by Orcs in the Redhorn Pass. It is unbearable to him that Arwen might also suffer such a fate, but never have the opportunity to come to Aman and be made whole once more. Aragorn must succeed.

I thought Hugo Weaving did an outstanding job of portraying Elrond. When he gives the bride away at the end, the expression on his face speaks volumes as they say.

Despite the fact that no one knows what happens to Men when they die, if Arwen and Aragorn are married, it strengthens the possibility that theirs is a bond that might persist beyond their passing. Her capacity for estel is

My husband however, had not read the books and loved the first two movies so I was curious about his response. He found Elrond's statement a little disconcerting--but he accepted it. He said, "There is a whole world of information about ME that I don't understand--I just figured that was one of those things." BUT--guess what? At the end of the third film, he turned to me with the tears still wet on his cheeks and said he understood why I spent so much time in Middle Earth. He is going to read the books! He's been asking me all kinds of questions. Add one to the growing list of Tolkien nerds, ah, fans!

Sorry for the long post. I'm generally, ah, fulsome, in my responses.

Falagar

12-30-2003, 11:05 AM

Congrats with your husband! :) ;)

I think I'll have to see the movie once more to see if I notice the 'change'...
SF-Fandom forum, right?

Sister Golden Hair

12-30-2003, 11:08 AM

Welcome back Maciliel. Stick around this time.:)

Elfhelm

12-30-2003, 01:11 PM

Hey maciliel, that's a great explanation. If Arwen is now as mortal as a human, her fate, like the fate of mankind, is tied to the One Ring.

squinteyedsoutherner

12-30-2003, 01:43 PM

I think people are putting too much effort into explaining what is, at it’s core, nothing more than a stupid addition (one of many in these films) in this case, to add new tension in the love department of the script since previous tensions have been resolved now that we know she didn't take the ship.

I argued in another thread that I think in some way that scene with Arwen was meant to show she had become mortal (although it's not exactly clear). That would be fine if it were just left at that. However the addition of the “she is sick, she is dying” thing is out of place regardless of whether she is mortal at this point or not. No one else in movie Middle-earth (mortal or immortal) is “sick and dying” because of the ring; no one else’s immediate health is bound to the ring (except Frodo's).

If that indeed is what Elrond is saying than he could have told Aragorn she has made her choice and she is now a mortal, and her fate is now tied to the fate of men, and what awaits her in death (whenever that may be) he does not know. That would have made sense to both Tolkien and non Tolkien fans. What he did say does not make any sense because it would mean that everyone in ME that is mortal is dying, and that is a story element that has not been used anywhere else in the film.

Further, the whole notion that the war is in some way tied to the concept of ending the race of men is itself another one of those pointless additions which is completely undercut by the fact that a huge portion of Sauron’s army are “men”.

Lizra

12-30-2003, 04:23 PM

Yes...all mortals are dying, the moment we start living....we also start dying. Big deal! Ring schming....:rolleyes: ;)

Earniel

12-30-2003, 04:27 PM

....and thus quoteth the High Priestess of Doo Dah. :)

Basically we can come up with whatever explanation we like. Still, personally, I think they made it needlessly more difficult that they could have.

Sminty_Smeagol

12-30-2003, 04:44 PM

I thought that Elrond was freaking out because Arwen was mortal lol like all mortals are dying and that she was dying and hes just stupid and worried. but then the whole 'i wish i could have seen him one last time' thing... *rolls eyes* are you sure she was actually literally dying? Because that happened in one of his dreams didnt it?

Maciliel

12-30-2003, 05:22 PM

I'll admit I found the whole "Arwen is dying...Her fate is now linked to the Ring" thing very jarring the first time I saw the film. However, the second time around, since I was expecting it, it wasn't so bad. Don't think it was necessary though.

The scene between Elrond and Arwen is wonderful in any case.
Originally posted by Falagar
Congrats with your husband! :) ;)

I think I'll have to see the movie once more to see if I notice the 'change'...
SF-Fandom forum, right?
Yep!

Well I'll try to stick around Sister GH, oh fellow Finrod fan. I keep meaning to get involved in the Sil project, but you folks are sure getting down there. Go you Silmarillies!

Elfhelm

12-30-2003, 06:00 PM

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

I know... it's morning sickness! When she has that vision of a son it's because she's el preggo. That's what Elrond knew and didn't tell her. And of course, he couldn't tell her not to ride a horse because when she left him she was walking. I guess the horse just followed her. It's Glorfindel's horse, though, so why did it follow her? Maybe it, too, knew she was on the nest. And of course, it doesn't show in her wedding dress because it's half elf / half Numenorean... or is that 26/50ths elf and 24/50's Numenorean... and the gestation period is a couple years. ;)

Sminty_Smeagol

12-30-2003, 06:19 PM

alas, the mystery is solved.

Perhaps it wasnt actually aragorn's child... and thats why death was in her future because aragorn would kill her when he found out...

Tuor of Gondolin

12-30-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Perhaps it wasnt actually aragorn's child...
___________________________________
Well, that could explain why Aragorn was so set on pursuing poor Smeagol. Humm. Gollum's love child?

"No, it wasn't me, gollum, gollum. It was Smeagol who met nice, bored elf. And she did ask to see the precious." (The Ring! You've got dirty minds! I'm gonna' tell mom!)

Oh wait, that's a rejected storyline. Otherwise, Danny Devito would have succeeded Aragorn.

Heather Wooltoes

12-30-2003, 11:21 PM

I wonder how long elvish tykes take to potty-train.......

Ben

12-30-2003, 11:37 PM

I like Maciliel's explanation, but still, the line was unnecessarily confusing. When I heard it I gave an inward groan - one of those few imperfect moments in the trilogy for me, right up there with Galadriel freaking out and Aragorn "dying."

Arathorn

12-31-2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by bmilder
I like Maciliel's explanation, but still, the line was unnecessarily confusing. When I heard it I gave an inward groan - one of those few imperfect moments in the trilogy for me, right up there with Galadriel freaking out and Aragorn "dying."

I agree with you, Ben.

However, with the Galadriel scene, I'vestarted thinking that maybe it was Frodo's vision of her thanks to the power of the One Ring. Same goes for Frodo seeing Bilbo go bug-eyed when the latter saw the Ring again as well as Bilbo seeing the spooky Gandalf in Bag End. The Ring was putting scary thoughts into the bearer's mind everytime someone tries to get it.

Well, that's what I thought...

Shadowfax

12-31-2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Arathorn
However, with the Galadriel scene, I'vestarted thinking that maybe it was Frodo's vision of her thanks to the power of the One Ring. Same goes for Frodo seeing Bilbo go bug-eyed when the latter saw the Ring again as well as Bilbo seeing the spooky Gandalf in Bag End. The Ring was putting scary thoughts into the bearer's mind everytime someone tries to get it.

Well, that's what I thought... That's an interesting idea. Never thought of it like that, but it works; I like your reasoning.

jerseydevil

12-31-2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by bmilder
I like Maciliel's explanation, but still, the line was unnecessarily confusing. When I heard it I gave an inward groan - one of those few imperfect moments in the trilogy for me, right up there with Galadriel freaking out and Aragorn "dying."
One of the few? There are MANH imperfect moments in the movies - such as the ridiculousness of Sam leaving Frodo, the fact that Jackson goes on about Pippin and Merry growing in TT - but then no mention in RotK - even to the point that Pippin is shorter than Sam at the Grey Havens.

Jackson just purely wanted to tie the movie in as being about Aragorn. The sole purpose of destroying the Ring is so Aragorn can become King. Arwen's "dying" just makes it more dramatic. Although RotK was somewhat better than the other movies - there are a lot of stupid changes - such as this one.

Dúnedain

12-31-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Arathorn
I agree with you, Ben.

However, with the Galadriel scene, I'vestarted thinking that maybe it was Frodo's vision of her thanks to the power of the One Ring. Same goes for Frodo seeing Bilbo go bug-eyed when the latter saw the Ring again as well as Bilbo seeing the spooky Gandalf in Bag End. The Ring was putting scary thoughts into the bearer's mind everytime someone tries to get it.

Well, that's what I thought...

I agree. I actually read that chapter last night and I can see why it was done that way. The descriptions are there it says:

From FotR; The Mirror of Galadriel:

'And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of a Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'

She lifter up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

It also goes on later to state that Sam didn't see anything other than a light from her finger:

'Did you see my ring?' she asked turning again to Sam.

'No, Lady,' he answered. 'To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your fingers. But if you'll pardon my speaking out, I think my master was right. I wish you'd take his Ring...

It's clear that Sam didn't know what the heck was going on, lol :p

Elfhelm

12-31-2003, 03:36 PM

Jokes aside, I really don't grasp the concept. Why is she sick, according to the screenplay?

Maciliel

01-01-2004, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Jokes aside, I really don't grasp the concept. Why is she sick, according to the screenplay?
I don't see it as she's "sick", but that she is now mortal, and thus is, well, dying.

Maciliel

01-01-2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
...Further, the whole notion that the war is in some way tied to the concept of ending the race of men is itself another one of those pointless additions which is completely undercut by the fact that a huge portion of Sauron’s army are “men”.
Hmmm, maybe you feel this way because you are a "SquintyEyedSoutherner". ;)

It seems to me that the fate of the entire race of men is irrefutably tied to the fate of the Ring. If Sauron had won and regained the Ring, a dark shadow, both figuratively and literally, would have covered all of Middle Earth.

I believe that the people of Khand and Harad supported Sauron because they believed he was invincible and thought (erroneaously) that they would be spared after the War (think of Mussolini/Italy or any of the collaborators in WWII). Being wholly evil however, Sauron would never honored any agreement any peoples' thought he had made with them. If Sauron had ever regained the Ring, all men would become enslaved, be debased and perish in humilating, terrible ends.

Tuor of Gondolin

01-01-2004, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Maciliel
Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
...Further, the whole notion that the war is in some way tied to the concept of ending the race of men is itself another one of those pointless additions which is completely undercut by the fact that a huge portion of Sauron’s army are “men”.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, maybe you feel this way because you are a "SquintyEyedSoutherner".

It seems to me that the fate of the entire race of men is irrefutably tied to the fate of the Ring.
___________________________________
I think there are two seperate points here. Yes, the "fate" of men would be debased by a Sauron victory [at least until an eventual, and inevitable, intervention by Iluvatar] , but I also, like that SquintyEyedSoutherner, didn't like PJ equating a Sauron dominated, controlled mankind with the physical elimation of all men. I think somewhere in "Letters" JRRT observes that tyrants need subjects. Just as Saruman kept men around and didn't rely only on orcs so would Sauron. Especially since men proved to be more easily corrupted by Morgoth or Sauron then elves.
And look at 20th Century history. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.(depressing how many of such as these three there were) all killed millions but they needed to keep many more subjects so as to have people to rule and control.

squinteyedsoutherner

01-01-2004, 03:09 PM

All of Middle-earth will be changed by a Sauron victory, but to suggest that one particular character is physically sick (and unless I’m not remembering correctly Elrond does say sick) and dying because of the ring when what they really mean is all the world will be enslaved under a shadow (or whatever Sauron has planned) is beyond a stretch to me.

The more plausible explanation is that the writers needed new tension in the relationship because with over 2 hours left in the movie we now know Aragorn has (or is just about to) rebuffed Eowyn’s love and we know Arwen did not leave ME.

The fact that it doesn’t really make sense in Tolkien’s world is irrelevant to the writers. Treebeard’s hasty decision to fight doesn’t really make sense, (even in the film) nor does a hobbit lecturing one of the oldest creatures in Middle-earth about responsibility, same goes for the Gandalf staff attack. but they still did all of those things (and many more), for the dramatic or visual effect.

I agree with Tuor as well. The physical elimination of the entire race of men was invented for the film to simplify the story, and was never even implied by Tolkien. The fact that men are fighting with Sauron or that wormtongue is working with Saruman is just another one of those “minor” inconsistencies that the screenwriters are willing to live with.

Maciliel

01-01-2004, 04:42 PM

Hi Tuor--do I know you from SF-Fandom?

I admit my concept of ME is based fundamentally and irrevocably in the books, but because I am utterly and unapologetically wowed by the films, I am also attempting to reconcile the changes necessary to translating the literary form to the medium of film and thus make them consonant with my own vision of Tolkien's world. This process is ideosyncratic and highly subjective at best, a muddle at worst.

I have seen RotK twice to date--does it say anywhere in the film that Sauron is seeking the eradication of Men? I don't recall it if it does, but this just might be me phase shifting my knowledge of the books with the information presented in the film. I know the Orc at Osgiliath says the dominion of Men is ending and that of Orcs is on the rise or something to that effect, but I don't remember if he says explicitly that Mankind will be wiped out.

I agree with the point that a tyrant needs subjects--as such I believe that Mankind under Sauron would live a horribly debased existence and all would die terrible deaths, tortured in body, mind and spirit by the circumstances of their existence, whether slowly or quickly. This interpretation does necessitate that Mankind would necessarily be exterminated. There might be whole cultures living for centuries in a condition of moral degeneracy or vicious cruelty. They would survive in a state of increasingly debased humanity. Sauron's aim was the dominion of Evil, and in terms of ruling classes this also might lead ipso facto to the ascendency of Orcs as the dominant species. Pure speculation of course.

And wow Tuor, you certainly toss a wild card into the fray--would the intervention of Iluvatar be inevitable if Men were not continuing to resist evil in some way? In Ea, could not ME fall into darkness for all eternity and some other area of existence rise into the light for a time? Prolly another thread. :)

Tuor of Gondolin

01-01-2004, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Maciliel
Hi Tuor--do I know you from SF-Fandom?

I admit my concept of ME is based fundamentally and irrevocably in the books, but because I am utterly and unapologetically wowed by the films,
____________________________
Nope. Haven't visited SF-Fandom.
I am somewhat and apologetically wowed by the films. They were better then I feared (I expected a grade of (A to F) of a "D" but I ended up giving them a "B". Could have been even higher but for the obvious errors/changes cited in other threads.

As for Iluvatar's intervention, I think that is necessitated by Tolkien's concept of Ea and the Music of the Ainur. From The Silmarillion:
Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

The problem seems to be one that has been thought about in Christian theology for 2,000 years, how to reconcile free will with
the providence of God (Midddle-earth Eru Iluvatar). it seems to me the way Tolkien handles it is to allow evil/bad choice (whatever) free will effect and change for a time (otherwise it wouldn't be real free will. If you will to kill someone and you are then miraculously stopped from doing so there would not seem to be real free will). An example, Melkor tries to mess up Middle-earth, causing the original symmetry to be lost, but through efforts of the Valar (eventually!):
...their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm.

Hope that makes some sense. Of course, the problem of free will in a monotheistic world like Ea is fundamental.

squinteyedsoutherner

01-01-2004, 09:21 PM

After seeing the film again today:

I am wrong about the “sick” word, Elrond only says dying in reference to Arwen. So I think Maciliel your interpretation of what PJ was trying to get across is correct. I still think however the drama created by saying “Arwen is dying” (because she really isn’t in any meaningful way) is to create new romance tension, it could have been much less vague otherwise. She is also shown looking quite sick as well.

On the death of men. You are right (Maciliel) elephant man orc does indeed say something to the effect that it is the end of the age of men and the beginning of the age of the orc, and Saruman has said similar things too. I think it’s fair to say that the film is trying to present, or at the very least imply “ending the race of men” as the prime motive.

I enjoyed it much more this time, not sure why.

Maciliel

01-02-2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
After seeing the film again today:...I enjoyed it much more this time, not sure why.
Weird isn't it? I think it's because we're no longer jarred by the departures from the text and so we're not constantly having to reconcile what we're seeing with our personal image of the story on the spot as they occur. For instance, I couldn't believe that PJ didn't work in having the standard unfurl as the ships sailed in to the Harlond, but it wouldn't have worked in the movie--Halbarad had never showed up with the standard :( and the moment would have been meaningless to anyone who had never read the book. The way PJ did it in the movie worked very well for the movie.

LuthienTinuviel

01-02-2004, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Bregalad
Perhaps they wrote themselves into a corner with the changes and felt some explanation was needed.

i applied the same reason to to most of the changes that were made..

PJ still did a hell of a job given what he did to the previous 2.

samwiselvr2008

01-03-2004, 12:37 AM

I don't see why they didn't leave that out, and pute in some other part of the book that they didn't have "time" to pute into the movie. If they didn't have the time, then why did they have the time to pute extra Arwen in? I don't get it....

I'm also interested in seeing what the directors/writers commentary will say on the extended DVD... that'll be interesting, though they do seem to find a way out of every other whole that they dig for themselfs, the main way of doing that is by saying that there wasn't time, so what will they say here "we just had extra time, and we didn't know what to do with it, so we added some Arwen lines there!"?:rolleyes:

Feanor9

01-03-2004, 10:14 AM

:( Arwen can't be dying! noooo, who will i be my..........oh yeah...eowyn..hehehe:cool:

samwiselvr2008

01-03-2004, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Feanor9
:( Arwen can't be dying! noooo, who will i be my..........oh yeah...eowyn..hehehe:cool:

Hmm, forgetting about Eowyn? Replacing her in Arwens place?:eek: Haha, just jokeing.

Well, since the Ring was distroyed, they didn't have to kill her, so that's a plus, at least....

Nurvingiel

01-04-2004, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
I'm also interested in seeing what the directors/writers commentary will say on the extended DVD... that'll be interesting, though they do seem to find a way out of every other whole that they dig for themselfs, the main way of doing that is by saying that there wasn't time, so what will they say here "we just had extra time, and we didn't know what to do with it, so we added some Arwen lines there!"?:rolleyes: I agree, try to reject the Scouring now Jackson, buahaha! (Random disappointed bitterness.)

Anyway, the whole "she's dying" thing was not very well done. If you're going to invent a plot device in a story that is not your own, the decent thing to do would be to explain it.

Maybe the explanation is as obvious (and pointless) as it seems. She is mortal and therefore dying. Beyond that, anyone who can't sail away from Middle-earth if Sauron gets the Ring is pretty much doomed. Maybe that's what they were referring to.

Ironically, Aragorn and Arwen's marriage (if that what the scene with them and the banner was) was extremely underdevelopped and hasty. :confused: When you could have had an accurate Arwen scene, you blew it Jackson. For some reason I liked that scene anyway though.

samwiselvr2008

01-04-2004, 02:29 PM

Maybe it is that obviouse, but didn't they say that as Saurons power grows, she weekens? And why would her hands be getting cold, and make her drop the book?

Nurvingiel

01-04-2004, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
Maybe it is that obviouse, but didn't they say that as Saurons power grows, she weekens? And why would her hands be getting cold, and make her drop the book? They could easily have said that, but why? *curious*

Thorin II

01-06-2004, 04:20 PM

I took it to mean that she had surrendered her immortality, and as a result, she was tied to the fate of Middle-Earth (unlike the rest of the Elves that would sail west). That said, it certainly wasn't explained very well.

azalea

01-27-2004, 10:53 PM

I forgot to post this sooner, but I got the fancy RotK soundtrack with a dvd that has a LotR supertrailer on it, and there is a scene of Arwen in her red and black ensemble getting up off that couch and hugging Elrond joyously. My suspicion (from seeing this combined with those earlier pics of her lying on the couch in that same outfit seemingly close to death) is that Jackson did indeed have a side story where she was dying because of the Ring somehow, and that when it was destroyed she was cured. Either it will be included as added scenes in the EE (which I'd find interesting but odd, because the EEs seem to be more about adding book stuff), or it was like the Arwen at Helm's Deep storyline -- abandoned.
It seems to me that PJ must have really liked Liv Tyler and the character of Arwen, and really wanted to bring her to the forefront of the action, maybe even thinking she belonged there in the book, too. The other thought is that he did do it simply as a way to appeal to young females, to offer a strong female role model, someone with whom they could identify to make the movie more appealing for them (since we don't get that from Eowyn until late in the third movie), as well as spicing up the love story beyond the kind of "errant knight/ fair lady in the tower" kind of relationship we're offered in the book (I know Tolkien would probably hate that characterization of their romance:o ).

Bombadillo

01-27-2004, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by azalea
I forgot to post this sooner, but I got the fancy RotK soundtrack with a dvd that has a LotR supertrailer on it, and there is a scene of Arwen in her red and black ensemble getting up off that couch and hugging Elrond joyously. My suspicion (from seeing this combined with those earlier pics of her lying on the couch in that same outfit seemingly close to death) is that Jackson did indeed have a side story where she was dying because of the Ring somehow, and that when it was destroyed she was cured. Either it will be included as added scenes in the EE (which I'd find interesting but odd, because the EEs seem to be more about adding book stuff), or it was like the Arwen at Helm's Deep storyline -- abandoned.
It seems to me that PJ must have really liked Liv Tyler and the character of Arwen, and really wanted to bring her to the forefront of the action, maybe even thinking she belonged there in the book, too. The other thought is that he did do it simply as a way to appeal to young females, to offer a strong female role model, someone with whom they could identify to make the movie more appealing for them (since we don't get that from Eowyn until late in the third movie), as well as spicing up the love story beyond the kind of "errant knight/ fair lady in the tower" kind of relationship we're offered in the book (I know Tolkien would probably hate that characterization of their romance:o ). Ah, so a "pervy elf fancier" is to blame. That'll do it every time. :mad:
;)

I think that it would have made perfect sense if he said Arwen was dying due to grief for Aragorn. We all know how Elves can die very emo deaths. I think PJ may have made that up so that people other than Tolkienites could understand what was going on. Still, it doesn't make it much easier; my brother didn't get it, and neither did my friend or three of my classmates who I asked. So ultimately, I'm not gonna move this thread along anywhere.

bowntori

01-28-2004, 02:41 AM

Yet another change made to enhance the role of arwen in the movies and seems yet another cheap trick to tug at the heart strings,sob,sniff! I the books as we all know she hardly appears and definately no maention of her dying as soon as she gives up her immortality,damn u hollywood:confused: :

crickhollow

01-28-2004, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by bowntori
Yet another change made to enhance the role of arwen in the movies and seems yet another cheap trick to tug at the heart strings,sob,sniff! I the books as we all know she hardly appears and definately no maention of her dying as soon as she gives up her immortality,damn u hollywood:confused: : You know, I actually read an interview with Miranda Otto where she says that Liv Tyler asked PJ to cut her action scenes, because they weren't true to her character. Apparently she took the fans' reactions seriously, and took her concerns to the big guy (literally!) himself. I'd be surprised to if the whole dying bit is included in the EE.