Glorfindel back from the dead?

[Silmo]

Can anyone tell me why, in The Silmarillion, It clearly says that Glorfindel of Gondolin dies fighting off a Balrog, but in FOTR, Glorfindel is the one who carries Frodo on his horse to Rivendel? Is there more than one Glorfindel?

R.S.V.P.

[Falagar]

In an essay from the late 60's (or early 70's) Tolkien explains how Glorfindel died in the battle for Gondolin, was 'reborn' in Valinor (much earlier than many others, afaik, because of his good deeds in his former life), and traveled to Middle Earth to help the free peoples of Middle Earth.

[Radagast The Brown]

Theer's already a thread like tat in Middle Earth, but I think it's pretty old...

Could be Glorfindel returned by Mandos, Mandos can return their souls to bodies, and than came back to Middle Earth. That's what I believe.

But, as you said, there's always the possibility that tere are 2 Glorfindels.

[Silmo]

Does it say in Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle-Earth anything about this, or is it just in that essay?

[Falagar]

The essay can be found in Histories of Middle Earth 12, The peoples of M-E. A really good book, by the way. ;)

[Silmo]

Thx for the info, and I do hope to read the history sometime soon. ( I think I might get one of the three book set containing all for christmas)

[Aden]

According to the "Encyclopedia Of Arda"


The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'?

The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'.

But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Moving to the Middle-earth forum.

[Falagar]

Have read this article some time ago, just want to comment on it:
But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Of course there's some truth to this, but we do not have any sources saying anything else (as we had and he discovered in the problem of Ros). If he had put an questionmark behind (or commented on it in other ways) I would probably not have presented it as a fact, but as it is we have nothing else to go after and no proof or hints that he changed his mind later.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'?

It is, in my opinion, just as much canon as most of the Silmarillion, since neither of those were published by Tolkien.

[Aden]

It is, in my opinion, just as much canon as most of the Silmarillion, since neither of those were published by Tolkien

Yes, I agree.

And personally I believe that there's only one Glorfindel ( the one and only ). I think he returned to ME in the year of the dread (second age)

[Earniel]

Wow. I think the last time that debate surfaced was when I had just joined the Entmoot. Nice to see it again. :)

This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.
Whether to take notes for fact is of course a problem since Tolkien never was able to finish the Silmarillion in a definite form. (Just imagine how great that would have been!) However, since there is no definitive version published, I think personally the most recent notes and versions he wrote before he died deserve some claim to the name 'canon'.

Still, I can do nothing else than liking how Tolkien 'solved' the Glorfindel-problem. Instead of saying that the case Glorfindel of Rivendell was the only time an elven name was re-used, he made a whole back-up story to make both Glorfindels one. I quite like that. :)

[Turgon_Turambar]

i know this is about Glorfindol but if its true that he was given his body back for his good deeds then alot of the elves should have been given their bodies back. Especially Filgolfin, could you imagine how useful Fingolfin would have been if he had come back. Imagine if he had survived all the way into the third age, he would have been able to walk the ring into Mordor alone and throw it into the fires of mount doom.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
i know this is about Glorfindol but if its true that he was given his body back for his good deeds then alot of the elves should have been given their bodies back. Especially Filgolfin, could you imagine how useful Fingolfin would have been if he had come back. Imagine if he had survived all the way into the third age, he would have been able to walk the ring into Mordor alone and throw it into the fires of mount doom. All the Elves had the choice of being re-embodied, but they all stayed in Valinor when they returned from Mandos. Glorfindel is the only one to return to the outer lands.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
All the Elves had the choice of being re-embodied, but they all stayed in Valinor when they returned from Mandos. Glorfindel is the only one to return to the outer lands.

actually not all elves were given that choice...Feanor was denied his choice b/c of what he did in his life.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
actually not all elves were given that choice...Feanor was denied his choice b/c of what he did in his life. Yes, Feanor is the exception. Also, there are Elves that made the choice not to return such as Miriel, and Aegnor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
All the Elves had the choice of being re-embodied, but they all stayed in Valinor when they returned from Mandos. Glorfindel is the only one to return to the outer lands. Well, he's the only one we know of. Isn't there also some speculations about Gildor Inglorion?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Well, he's the only one we know of. Isn't there also some speculations about Gildor Inglorion? The only speculation I know of regarding Gildor, is when he came to Middle-earth. Michael Martinez, I believe theorized that Gildor is possibly the son of Finrod and Amarie and came to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age. However, when he meets Frodo he says that they are Exiles, which implies, IMO, that he came with the Noldor across the Ice.

[Artanis]

Yep, that's it. Thanks for clearing it up for me. :)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes, Feanor is the exception. Also, there are Elves that made the choice not to return such as Miriel, and Aegnor.

I was just reading in Morgoth's Ring about Finwe and Miriel and when he died and met Miriel in Mandos, she wasnted to return and was allowed to go while Finwe stayed in her place.

[Attalus]

Yes, and in the Letters, JRRT discusses Miriel's choice and what havoc it wrought.

[afro-elf]

Here are your Glorfindel links.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5080&highlight=glorfindel


http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3842&highlight=glorfindel

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2202&highlight=glorfindel

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Silmo
Can anyone tell me why, in The Silmarillion, It clearly says that Glorfindel of Gondolin dies fighting off a Balrog, but in FOTR, Glorfindel is the one who carries Frodo on his horse to Rivendel? Is there more than one Glorfindel?

R.S.V.P.
no

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The only speculation I know of regarding Gildor, is when he came to Middle-earth. Michael Martinez, I believe theorized that Gildor is possibly the son of Finrod and Amarie and came to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age. However, when he meets Frodo he says that they are Exiles, which implies, IMO, that he came with the Noldor across the Ice.
he is not their son
he IS of the house, and IS a Noldor

[Aden]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Here are your Glorfindel links.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5080&highlight=glorfindel


http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3842&highlight=glorfindel

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2202&highlight=glorfindel

OOhh I missed all these threads!
And I feel the same way. I thought he was one of the coolest characters before I knew he slew the Balrog!!! Maybe it's because of the way Tolkien presents him!:)