What was the Most Important Marriage/Couple...

[Dúnedain]

Last night after reading the story of "Aldarion and Erendis" in Unfinished Tales I started to think about whose marriage was the most important in all the lands and Ages of the World. There came to mind a number of very important partnerships over the vast ages of the world. Of course if you say one marriage it can be that the marriage of their parents were just as important and so on, as it allowed that later marriage to happen.

Anyway, which marriage do you think was the MOST important in the history of the world, and why do you think it to be so?


For me, after thinking about this all day, I think that the marriage between Tuor and Idril was the most important. Tuor being the son of Huor of the House of Hador and Idril being the daughter of Turgon Elf King of Gondolin. I say this because, from them brought great hope to the world, which I will speak about in a bit. Before even getting to the point of their marriage though, the House of Hador represented by Húrin and Huor (Tuor's father), were held in high regard with Turgon and the Eldar of Gondolin amongst others. During the Nirnaeth Arnoediad Huor and Húrin helped hold off the enemy by guarding Turgon and his people thus allowing them to escape. However, before they parted, Huor prophesied to Turgon that new hope would spring from the two of them, saying '...from you and from me a new star will arise'.

How true that statement was that Huor made. First to begin the line of descent on Idril's side comes down from Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor, down through his son Fingolfin who was the father of Turgon the father of Idril. Second, the descent on Huor's side comes down from the House of Hador Lórindol who was in great favor in serving Fingolfin. From there Hador's son was Galdor who son's were most notably Húrin and Huor. Huor of course being the father of Tuor.

The House of Hador was also the most reknowned of the Three Houses of the Edain, which included the descendants and followers of Hador Lórindol. Húrin Thalion, Túrin Turambar, Huor and Tuor were all descended from this House. They, along with the other Two Houses of the Edain (Bëor, Haleth) were the Elf-friends of the Elder Days, faithful to them in the wars of Beleriand and were ultimately given the isle of Númenor (which I will mark shortly).

continued...

[Dúnedain]

...continued


Going from there into the life of Tuor, he was not only led and instructed by a Vala (Ulmo) to find Gondolin and get to Turgon, but he fell in love with his daughter Idril and from them was born Eärendil the Mariner, who is arguable one of the most important people to be born. Along with his birth comes greatness as a result of the marriage between Tuor, a mortal man, and Idril, an Elf-princess. From Eärendil comes the following:

1) He sailed Belegaer, the Great Sea of the West seeking the undying lands to call for aid of the Valar against Morgoth,
2) His wife came to him, while he sailed, in the form of a white sea bird with the help of Ulmo (again Ulmo helps this family as he did earlier with Tuor) bearing the Silmaril, after being attacked by the Sons of Fëanor,
3) With the aid of the Silmaril, he finds the Undying Lands at last and goes before the Valar to plead with them to send help,
4) The Valar send forces after Eärendil begs them to, and Morgoth is defeated.

From there he became a blessed star and light. Since his father was a Man, and his mother an Elf, Eärendil and his wife Elwing and their sons were given the choice of race to which they wished to belong. Elwing chose Elvenkind, and Eärendil did as well, for her.

Their sons are none other than Elrond and Elros. Arguably again two more of the most important people to live. Elrond chose the life of an Elf and Elros chose that of a Man.

Elrond being one of the greatest Elves in all the History of Middle-Earth, where notable we find later on through his kin the bloodline of elf and man is renewed yet again. Elros being the most important of the race of the "Kings of Men". As a result of Elros's choosing the Valar rewarded the Houses of the Edain by giving them Númenor in which he was the first King and the longest lived man in all of the History of the world. Elros of course produces a longer line of lineage than Elrond, with the Númenoreans, later known as the Dúnedain. From there many generations down through up to the time of the end of the Third Age, this bloodline is again renewed through Arwen (Elrond's kin) and Aragorn (descendant of Elros).

So in summary, I chose their marriage and not marriages before them and leading up to them, because their coming together was the spark that change the fate of Elves and Men. Without the marriage of Tuor and Idril, there is no significant mixing of the bloodlines of Elf and Man, even though it did happen once previously. There would be no birth of Eärendil, which means no Elrond or Elros. With no Elros there is no High Kings of Men, the Númenoreans. Without this hereditary line started from Tuor and Idril, Morgoth would not have been destroyed and evil would have claimed dominion over the vastness of the world. We wouldn't even fear Sauron as he was in the Second and Third Ages, because Morgoth would still be running the show...

Anyway, which marriage do you think was the MOST important in the history of the world, and why do you think it to be so?

[Arien the Maia]

Well I think that Finwe and Indis is the most important b/c their children were great and the history of the world and the elves' history would have been diminished if they had not been born...they brought alot of lore to Middle Earth upon their return.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Well I think that Finwe and Indis is the most important b/c their children were great and the history of the world and the elves' history would have been diminished if they had not been born...they brought alot of lore to Middle Earth upon their return.

Elaborate, lol. I wrote a huge post! Come on put some work into it and back up your statement! :D

[Valandil]

Drogo Baggins = Primula Brandybuck

Offspring was Frodo... who saved Middle Earth! :)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
Drogo Baggins = Primula Brandybuck

Offspring was Frodo... who saved Middle Earth! :)

Yes, but without the lineage I posted above Morgoth would have rampaged Middle Earth and Sauron would have never made his Ring :D

[Elf Girl]

What about Luthien and Beren? Half the important people of Middle-Earth are their descendents!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Elaborate, lol. I wrote a huge post! Come on put some work into it and back up your statement! :D

lol:D well, let's see....Fingolfin and Finarfin were great sons (not as great as Feanaro but that's another story;) ) and Finarfin's daughter, Galadriel was influential in the War of the Ring...i.e giving Frodo the Phial. Also finrod and Turgon were influential in the wars against Morgoth.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow Dúnedain! Your post is really well thought out!

General question for all: What defines the importance of a marriage? Is it the offspring or line produced? What the marriage meant to the people involved? Other factors? A combination of factors?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Wow Dúnedain! Your post is really well thought out!

General question for all: What defines the importance of a marriage? Is it the offspring or line produced? What the marriage meant to the people involved? Other factors? A combination of factors?

I would say the importance would go in this order: the repercussions or significance of the marriage (meaning the overall aspect of what happened as a result of them coming together whether it being something that happened immediately or something that occurred thousands of years later with their descendants, basically the overall impact of the marriage), the immediate offspring of the marriage, the descendants, how people reacted and what it did for them, etc...

Basically it is a combination of everything together, but most importantly for me the ultimate impact of their coming together and the resultant of them coming together...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
What about Luthien and Beren? Half the important people of Middle-Earth are their descendents!

Not quite, as Luthien and Beren's child was Dior. Dior became the King of Doriath and had three children. They were Eluréd, ElurÃ*n and Elwing. Eluréd & ElurÃ*n weren't really noted as doing much as they in were lost in the assault on Doriath by the Sons of Fëanor. Elwing, as we all know is very important, as she married Eärendil thus producing Elrond and Elros.

Yes if you look at it from the result of their descendants from the line of Elwing as she married Eärendil and a debate can be made. However, I still think that Tuor and Idril are more important, because without Eärendil, the Valar would not have come to save the day and defeat Morgoth. The immediate impact of their marriage is the result of a fulfillment of a prophecy by Huor, however it even runs more deep, as Ulmo did tell Turgon to put the armor and weapon in Nevrast and to expect a person thus dressed to come to him one day and to abide his words. Unfortunately Turgon didn't listen to his words, but that is neither here nor there and a whole other story :D So really Tuor was expected in two aspects. 1. To come to Turgon through the words that Ulmo spoke to him, and 2. That the line of Turgon and Huor would give hope to the world through their blood.

It's important not to confuse only the great things a certain married couple did, such as Luthien and Beren, however you must look at the overall aspect of what it meant for the world immediately around them and on from there. To me the Luthien and Beren story is great, but it was basically about the recovery of a jewel, it wasn't exactly something that would change the fate of their respected races...

[Dúnedain]

Surely there are more people that have thought about this!! Right? lol

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Surely there are more people that have thought about this!! Right? lol

I would elaborate, Dru, but it would be pointless. I agree with your choice 100% :D :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Surely there are more people that have thought about this!! Right? lol

I'm thinking everyone is just kind of focused on the movie right now.:)

Oh - I got one for you though... no books to check names, but how about JRR's folks? Dad was also 'John' - right? What was his mother's name again...??:D

[brownjenkins]

i'd put a slight twist on Arien the Maia's suggestion and say it was the marriage of Finwë and Miriel... without their sole child, Fëanor, there would be no silmarils, they would not have been stolen by morgoroth, the elves would never have returned to middle earth, and as a result, it could be argued that morgoroth would never have been ultimately defeated by the valar... it may have been a better world for the eldar... but it would be a pretty bleak history for the rest (avari, men, dwarves, hobbits)... the way i see everything else springs from this

[Falagar]

Finwë and MÃ*riel of course! :p Without them there would be no Silmarillion.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'd put a slight twist on Arien the Maia's suggestion and say it was the marriage of Finwë and Miriel... without their sole child, Fëanor, there would be no silmarils, they would not have been stolen by morgoroth, the elves would never have returned to middle earth, and as a result, it could be argued that morgoroth would never have been ultimately defeated by the valar... it may have been a better world for the eldar... but it would be a pretty bleak history for the rest (avari, men, dwarves, hobbits)... the way i see everything else springs from this

Yes Finwe and Miriel is a VERY important union ...after all Feanor was the most awesome of all elves!!!!! I suppose it is right up there with Finwe and Indis...maybe even before it

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Yes Finwe and Miriel is a VERY important union ...after all Feanor was the most awesome of all elves!!!!! I suppose it is right up there with Finwe and Indis...maybe even before it
He did create the Silmarilli which the whole book is about. Of course, without the marriage of Finwë and Indis he may have turned out wholly different, but without his own parents there would be no-one to turn out at all (that we will ever know of, at least).

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Falagar
He did create the Silmarilli which the whole book is about. Of course, without the marriage of Finwë and Indis he may have turned out wholly different, but without his own parents there would be no-one to turn out at all (that we will ever know of, at least).

yes the Silmarilli are of GREAT importance to all of Tolkien's stories...I mean they make an appearance in LOTR...i.e the Phial of Galadriel.

[Earniel]

Hm, personally I think the marriage of Finwë and Indis is just a tad more important that that of Finwë and MÃ*riel. While Finwë and MÃ*riel provided Fëanor, their situation alone would never have led to the exodus of the Noldor to Middle-earth and all the consequences that brought to the history of Middle-earth.

If Finwë hadn't remarried and hadn't given Fëanor half-brothers, Morgoth would not have found anything to work with on Fëanor. It was the presence of Fingolfin that made Fëanor easier prey for Morgoth's corruptive powers.

Without the friction between Fëanor and Fingolfin, Fëanor would never had been banished to (I think the name of the place was)Formenos. He would not have locked the silmarils away in there and Finwë would not have been there to be killed by Morgoth.

If Fëanor had remained in TÃ*rion, much closer to the Valar, I doubt Morgoth would have been so succesful in stealing the silmarils. Or whether he could have gotten away unnoticed so easily.

Without his banishment and the bitterness he had about it, Fëanor might have been more easily pursuaded to give up the silmarils to Yavanna to rekindle the Trees.

So without the situation with Fëanor and his halfbrothers, the silmarillion might never have happened. No noldor in Middle-earth, no Idril to marry Tuor, no Eärendil to be the embassador of the Two Kindreds.

So for me, it's a bit of a tie between Finwë's marriage with Indis and Idril's marriage with Tuor.

[Melko Belcha]

I would say Earendil and Elwing. From them their sons contained the blood of all three divisions of the Eldar and the three houses of the Edain, plus alittle bit of Ainur. There marrige over all might not have a big impact on ME I have always found in amazing how Tolkien was able to bring all of it together in Elrond and Elros. From Elrond a stran of Edain and Maiar was brought to the Elves, and from Elros a stran of Eldar and Maiar was brought to Men, which all came back together with Aragorn and Arwen.

The marriage Earendil and Elwing might not be the greatest marrige in ME, but it has always had a big impact on me.

[Arien the Maia]

what about Elwe and Melian? I mean that's the ONLY marriage between an Ainu and an elf...without that...then there would be no strain of the Ainur to come to men and elves I suppose

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Eärniel
So for me, it's a bit of a tie between Finwë's marriage with Indis and Idril's marriage with Tuor.

Yaaaaaaaaaay :D

[brownjenkins]

While Finwë and MÃ*riel provided Fëanor, their situation alone would never have led to the exodus of the Noldor to Middle-earth and all the consequences that brought to the history of Middle-earth.

maybe, but no argument can be made for anything happening without Fëanor... even in your arguments, he's the other half of the friction, so at the very least, his parents should be part of that tie

[Earniel]

True. Without Fëanor himself the noldorin history (and that of the rest of Middle-earth) would be very monotone indeed. However, if I look at the number of different consequences of both marriages of Finwë, personally I think his second marriage with Indis was more influential on the events that followed than his marriage with MÃ*riel.

[brownjenkins]

it's a tough thing to measure, but if you look at it from that perspective Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor, has to be taken into account... he is arguably one of the most influential, post-FA

i guess i've just always seen the house of Finwë, through the line of Fëanor as the primary "movers" of events throughout the series... granted, this was often in a bad way, but i think few influenced the history of middle earth more (other than maybe Melkor)

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Not quite, as Luthien and Beren's child was Dior. Dior became the King of Doriath and had three children. They were Eluréd, ElurÃ*n and Elwing. Eluréd & ElurÃ*n weren't really noted as doing much as they in were lost in the assault on Doriath by the Sons of Fëanor. Elwing, as we all know is very important, as she married Eärendil thus producing Elrond and Elros.


But the Dunedain were descended from him. The kings of Gondor & Arnor, the Norhtern Rangers, as well as Elrond and co.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
But the Dunedain were descended from him. The kings of Gondor & Arnor, the Norhtern Rangers, as well as Elrond and co.

They are only half descended from him, as I show above his descendant Elwing marries the descendant of Tuor and Idril, who is none of than Eärendil...

[ethuiliel]

My favorite couple is Eowyn and Faramir:), but I guess the most important was Beren and Luthien. They were the first union between an Elf and a mortal, and many people, both Elf and Human were decended from them. Earendil, Elrond, Elros, Aragorn, Arwen, Elendil, Isildur, Anarion, and possibly Faramir and Boromir, to name just a few.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by ethuiliel
My favorite couple is Eowyn and Faramir:), but I guess the most important was Beren and Luthien. They were the first union between an Elf and a mortal, and many people, both Elf and Human were decended from them. Earendil, Elrond, Elros, Aragorn, Arwen, Elendil, Isildur, Anarion, and possibly Faramir and Boromir, to name just a few.

Earendil was NOT descended from Beren and Luthien. Their son Dior had a daughter, Elwing. Elwing married Earendil...Earendil was the son of Tuor and Idril...