Mooters' RotK reviews

[azalea]

Here's a thread for us to use to post our reviews of the movie, since some of us are seeing it tonight. I'd respectfully ask that the first person to post in this thread (after this one) be someone who has seen the movie and is posting their review.

Also, of course you are free to comment on and discuss each others' reviews here, but I am asking that debate regarding the movie be taken to the other thread I am starting, entitled "RotK: a successful adaptation?" I feel that will cut down on off topic posts in this thread, making it more readable. Thanks.:)
(And of course I expect other threads to be started regarding the specifics, etc., resulting in plenty of places to debate about the movie.:) )

[Finrod Felagund]

Wow not only did I win the tickets, but when there I won door prizes (The soundtrack, a tuque, a Gandalf Poster...)
Anyways, heres my review.


"Well, I'm Back"
Yes, the Return of the King film ended the same as the book.

But I think I'll Start with the negative.
Other than the absent Scouring of the Shire and Saruman, there were othe changes, both small and big.
To begin, Denethor's nobility was greatly reduced. Making him seem a sick old man. And not sane from the beginning. Also, his Palantir goes unmentioned.
The Dead men make a greater impact here, instead of simply helping to take over the ships, the are the force that lifts the seige of Minas Tirith, rather than South Gondorians that Aragorn picked up.
Of course, the grey company is absent for the ride through the Paths of the Dead, and Elrond brings Anduril to Aragorn (though he should already have it.)
Sadly, Prince Imrahil, Beregond and other prominent Gondorian soldiers are absent as well as is Ghan-Buri-Gan and the wild men.
Of course, the other big change is Gollum poisoning Frodo towads Sam and Frodo sending Sam away. Though it does make Frodo look less helpless (he fights Shelob), the result is the same. Sam brutally wounds Shelob and Frodo is captured.
The houses of healing are left for the EE, and Faramir/Eowyn only barely gets a nod (also reserved for the EE)
Many changes. Much evil...

Now for the Good.
The casting is of course (mostly) dead on.
The scenery and effects are bloody brilliant.
And the score is awesome.
The death of the witch king is spot on, absolutely amazing, despite the absence of the Barrow blade and a slight line change ("No man am I" to "I am no man") This scene was right out of the books.
The charge of the Rohirrim at the Seige of Minas Tirith was one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen. Absolutely stunning.
The city itself was also magnificent.
The arrival of the eagles at the Blackgate was also well done (I wasn't sure how this would play out but they did it well) and Gandalf's moth friend makes a cameo.
There is of course humour, but not all PJ's. J.R.R.'s humour is there, particularly in the scene where Gimli berates Merry & Pippin for sitting around smoking while they're out searching for them.
And, though not in the book, Gimli & Legolas continue their contest.
Shelob was frightening to say the least. And definitely not for arachnaphobes.
Aragorn and Pippin both sing. And Merry and Pippin get another drinking song at Rohan. (one about the Green Dragon)
And there is a beautiful moment where, on the mountain slope, Sam says "I may not be able to carry it for you...but I can carry you" and picks Frodo up. A real tearjerking moment.
Aragorn & Arwen share a passionate kiss (this is about the time when she was supposed to show up anyways)
The return to the Shire was amusing (the grumpy old Hobbit gives the four princelings "the look"). And the four of them have a drink in the Green Dragon, where the "Concerning Hobbits" Shire theme from FotR makes a reprise. Frodo also mentions the morgul wound. "It's been exactly four years since weathertop".
Sam and Rosie's wedding is shown, and Pippin check out some hobbit chick.
The end was almost perfect, despite the fact that the Gamgees should have been living in Bag End, it was also right out of the book.

Well, that's all I have to say now, there's more but you'll have to wait till tomorrow (or tonight if you're doing the Marathon).
Well, enjoy, I'm seeing it again tomorrow at 3:45 in the afternoon.


P.S. Peter jackson's cameo for RotK is as the captain on a corsair ship near the beginning.



Cheers!
FF
Aaron

[Artanis]

Nice read. :)

OK, the negative: I knew all of it already, no surprises there.

The good things are what I'm gonna enjoy in less than 26 hours!

A small thing, but - IMHO "No man am I" sound so much better than "I am no man". Brings up quite different associations.

[Lalaith]

Just came back from the cinema. And I have to admit that I am impressed. After TTT I was a bit disappointed, but not this time.

I didn't like a lot of the changes and I think some things were only mentioned to short (hard to get the point for people who haven't read the book) and some were left out.

But all in all I have a positive image of this movie. It's a good ending for a good trilogy and we can only wait and see what surprises the Extended Version will have for us.

So: Go and see it. It's worth it. If you can ignore all the little (and big changes) then you can really enjoy a good movie.

I guess my favourite scene has to be when the Nazgul and the Orcs leave Minas Morgul while Frodo, Sam and Gollum are hiding. Loved that one.

[Elenessiel]

Sometime midway through the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, I remember thinking to myself, I love this. This is absolutely incredible. And I still think that. But the ending was WAY too long.
Some thoughts:
First, my enthusiasm for the movie was somewhat dampened by an interminable ending. It's not that I think any of it should have been left out- I'm thrilled that things got wrapped up. And all the final sequences in and of themselves were very well done. But they never stopped coming. And the last half-hour or so had far too little dialogue and far too many long, significant glances.
Except that I really loved the long, significant look that passes between Frodo and Sam right after they're rescued from Mordor.
Although I enjoyed the exploration of Gollum's past, it wasn't really necessary. I would have rather devoted that time to Saruman, or the Houses of Healing.
Elijah Wood looks positively demonic on the threshold of Mount Doom. It's quite thrilling.
The dead oathbreaker army managed to be creepy, stunning, and awesome all at once. I love the appear-and-swarm tactics.
Gandalf and Pippin, in particular, have some wonderful exchanges.
Gollum driving a wedge between Frodo and Sam works out so well. This is one movie innovation that I really love.
As Mordor crumbles, it crumbles in a semi-circle, which by a strange coincidence happens to perfectly correspond with the semi-circle of Aragorn's army. What was with that?
I want an eagle army of my own.
I was a little worried about the Witch-King's appearance- but they've got the perfect headdress.
King Aragorn is well groomed. It's a shocking transformation.
Although I love the extended editions, it troubles me that fans have to shrug off inconsistencies and incompleted threads in the theatrical-release movies as holes that will be cleared up by the EEs. We shouldn't have to do that. The movies shouldn't have to be backed up by EE versions.
Bottom line: Fantastic film, but I'm not sure how many times I'll be able to sit through the ending sequences.

[Starr Polish]

Very tired, and rather ill, so I'll keep my review short and expand later.

I was not nearly as disappointed as I was with TTT. There were still some "what where they thinking?" moments (such as when Frodo abandons Sam on the stairs...Uh, okay...), but overall, I enjoyed it very much.

I cried several times, suprisingly almost as much with Pippin as with Sam and Frodo. Billy Boyd has an oddly good singing voice.

I think I can forgive this film of nearly all of its faults because of the Gray Havens scene. ::bumbling mess::

Ah...prizes! Yay! I got a lanyard, a t-shirt that says "I Survived Trilogy Tuesday", and three "official" film frames from the three films. Neat-o.

[jerseydevil]

I was waiting for R2D2 to make an appearance at Aragorns coronation - or else at the very least for Gimli to start swaying back and forth. :rolleyes:

Again with implying that Pipeweed is pot.

I can't believe Jackson actually made Sam leave Frodo. At the most I thought Sam woudl have acted like he had left and then tag along behind. Sam would never leave Frodo.

Jackson did redeem Arwen's character somewhat from turning her into Xena-elf in FotR - but having her DYING and her fate tied to the ring. Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Denethor setting himself on fire and then running off the causeway - that was brilliant. :rolleyes:

I guess Sam doesn't go to undying lands - and also - I suppose Sam isn't considered a Ring bearer because he never wore the Ring.

Oh well - good action movie with the typical cry scenes and suspense (oh my god did Frodo just fall into Mt Doom??!!! :rolleyes:)

Also - how many frigging swords do Merry and Pippin get? What happened to all their swords. Weatertop - 1st set. Gift Giving scene (EE, which yes doesn't matter - but still they were elf swords which is important) - 2nd set. Edoras and Minis Tirith - 3rd set.

Can Jackson do anymore slow motion in a movie? :rolleyes:


There is my review as it stands right now.

[Dúnedain]

I don't think I have been so wide-eyed in a movie as I was with this. I absolutely loved it! I guess I am gifted at seeing past the changes and being able to open my eyes to a damn good movie. As I've stated, RotK was by far my favorite book so this movie had to be damn good to achieve a lot for me. It did just that, I think it was definitely the best of the series, bar none.

Just to get a couple things out of the way. The way the movie was laid out, the only two things I wish were in it (not counting the Scouring) were the Mouth of Sauron and a minor tweak to the Paths of the Dead. The way the coming to the Black Gate played out it would have been so perfect if the Mouth of Sauron was there. With the Paths of the Dead, I kept waiting and waiting for Aragorn to say "Oathbreakers!" but he never did :( Don't get me wrong I liked what they did with the Paths of the Dead, but it would have been so much better with that one word :D

Moving on from there, everything is still kinda sinking in, so my thoughts are all over the place. Every character was wonderful, the hobbits got their shining moment and were very pivotal throughout this movie. I wish Faramir was in it more, but he was great for his time in it. Theoden was awesome! At first I thought he was going to be a dick, but he was so great.

There are 2 parts in the movie that stick out as being my favorite right now. The first part is when Elrond gives Aragorn the sword Anduril. I'm not sure if anyone else picked this up, but in speaking to each other they each spoke a piece of what Gilraen (Aragorn's mother) said to Aragorn the last time they saw one another before she died. Elrond says "I give hope to Men" and Aragorn then follows with "I have left none for myself". I thought that was a great/perfect place for them to incorporate one of the best lines Tolkien has written, even though it was tweaked a bit :p

The other part was the Charge of the Rohirrim onto the Pelannor Fields. I was literally trembling when this happened. First Theoden's speech was awesome and then their charge with the camera angles and everything was quite superb.

Again, this movie brought to life so many beautiful things. Minas Tirith was simply breathtaking, there are no other words to describe it other than that. I never picture the Grey Havens to be so beautiful either. I always pictured them smaller and not as pretty, but that was wonderful too.

I feel like I am randomly rambling on, lol. Shelob was excellent as well as the Morgul Vale scene and effects. All in all I can't wait to see this movie again. I had to fight back tears in a couple parts. I had no issue with the way it ended, I didn't think it was drawn out, I kinda wished it kept going on, lol. This was the longest movie that has kept my attention the entire time. I didn't feel one instance where I was bored or anything. I was so enamored by it the whole time. It certainly did not feel like it was 3 hours and 20 minutes. I thought I was in the movie for about an hour, I looked at my watch and the movie had been on for 2 1/2 hours, lol. That's how into it I was.

Among the changes and deletions, this movie still held true to the theme of LotR's. With that, the movie was a wonderful experience, whether it was the characters, their stories or the coming to life of Middle Earth and the scenery. I was concerned the Frodo sending Sam away thing wasn't going to work, but it was damn good for something so different. I enjoyed this movie very much and cannot wait to see it again. Once I get my thoughts together I will write a better review :D

[Churl]

Only a very quick set of reactions, because I’m really tired: the film was amazing, incredible, mind-blowing, and every bit worthy of its hype (and then some).

Personally I loved the long series of endings that seem to be the sticking point for most casual viewers.  All that went before redefined the word “spectacular.â€�

I was prepared for the alterations from the text, so I wasn't as annoyed as I was by The Two Towers.  Would I have made different choices regarding the major changes?  Maybe.  But then again, I could never have accomplished 0.000001% of what Jackson & Co. did — even if I were given twice the resources that they were.

Of course I missed the obvious scenes (EE or unfilmed): the confrontation with Saruman, the Houses of Healing, the Scouring, etc.  Overall, however, I was thrilled with all that was retained.

For the record, I also love the book and have read it numerous times.  Contrary to extremist dogma, it is possible to love both the book and the films.

[IronParrot]

The Return of the King - first impressions

Context

Written right after getting back from Trilogy Tuesday - FOTR:EE, TTT:EE and ROTK screened consecutively. A second time around is immediately in order and will probably be a more rigorous analysis of the film as a self-contained entity; as with the first two instalments, the first time around involves a great deal of "adaptation baggage." It should be noted that I am currently in the middle of the longest period I've gone without reading the book cover to cover since maybe the age of thirteen, and I don't have a copy beside me, so my grasp of various details may be prone to errors. Shamefully, I can't name the other monarchs and their respective kingdoms who fought alongside Gondor at the Pelennor, aside from the odd Prince Imrahil or two.

What I liked

If there's anything I don't criticize below, work under the assumption that I loved it until I say otherwise. Keep in mind that I will not be addressing too many specific adaptation issues this post - expect them later. They're not done yet, as I have tons of analysis to get through.

Honestly, I'm so overwhelmed right now that I will not even think of attempting a bullet-point list of specific details - down to individual shots - that took hold of me. Specifics are going to have to wait, or I'll be up all night talking about how I was practically jumping out of my seat when Éowyn's Big Moment finally came; come to think of it, I've already been up all night writing this post. Let's skip to some generalities instead.

Taking advantage of the cinematic medium

This has been without a shadow of a doubt the thing about the movies most deserving of critical praise, and ROTK pushes the envelope even further. Much of it is told entirely through visual poetry - letting the images speak for themselves, often tuning out dialogue or discarding it entirely. When Frodo claims the Ring for himself, he does not give the whole spiel about how he no longer wishes to complete his task; he dangles the Ring over the fire and merely says, "The Ring is mine." (Note the lack of the exclamation mark; the facial expression more than makes up for it.)

There is a particularly impressive sequence involving the lighting of Gondor's beacons from mountain to mountain that is a direct conveyance of the film's epic scale. At the end of the day, there is no doubt that Middle-Earth is one really big place, and The Lord of the Rings is one really big story.

Concerning its handling of action: the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is cinema's new gold standard, period. Not only is it downright massive in scope, but even with all the pieces moving on the metaphorical board, it all comes together and makes sense when you break it down stage by stage, tactic by tactic. The success lies much in the precision with which Tolkien wrote the battle in the first place, but you cannot ignore the tremendous responsibility to edit shot after shot in a coherent sequential manner. It's battle choreography at its biggest and best.

What is the whole point of the movie? One could say it is to bring the "history" depicted in Tolkien's book to life. When I saw Minas Tirith besieged and lit red and orange under cover of darkness, I saw history enacted with the same authenticity, the same authority as the Normandy landings in Saving Private Ryan or that other famous cinematic cavalry charge, the seizure of Aqaba in Lawrence of Arabia. Not to sound like a Coca-Cola spokesperson, but it's the real thing.

Above any and all of the more obvious spectacle, though, is how the visuals communicate the human element of the story. The actions speak for themselves, and body language is half the message. The depth of both environment and personality embodied in the images that flash by consitute what is just good filmmaking. I point to Frodo, Sam and Gollum and every last scene that involves them.

The telling mark of a cinematic masterpiece is when the director has total control over every detail of his vision - an eye for composition and an eye for detail, down to every last shot. Given how this was conducted in the first two, seeing it again in number three is no big surprise, but this one overloads the senses and shouts, "This is art." The distinctive feature of The Lord of the Rings is that among box-office blockbusters, it's that rare piece that stays focused on critically assessable and laudable values of precision filmmaking. ROTK takes this idea and runs with it. It's an art piece.

[IronParrot]

Impact on and cohesion within the "trilogy"

Now that the film known as The Lord of the Rings is complete, it's important to look at how some dangling questions from the first two parts are answered.

As predicted, it does indeed turn out that the detour to Osgiliath in The Two Towers was a segue to the Nazgul pursuing Faramir all the way to Minas Tirith. That was the justification I was waiting for, and it played out just as it should have.

Seeing all the films in one day really highlights something: how the principal characters change from the moment they enter the picture to the moment they exit. Despite the omission of the Battle of Bywater, Merry and Pippin really come full circle in this one, showing once again that a lot of the characterization gripes we all heard two years ago were premature. The context of a complete trilogy has been demonstrated as clearly necessary for a decent analysis. On a more general level, what really makes this work is that the way these characters get from point A to point B is a seamless progression free of anny overt spontaneous leaps. That's what makes them feel like real people.

There is one area where ROTK feels more stand-alone than integrated into the entire body of work: there is a fair bit of flashing back to scenes in the first two films. The problem here is that by taking a few seconds of Boromir being shot or Frodo being stabbed by the Witch-King and replaying them out of context, you lose the build-up that made those scenes so dramatic in the first place.

But on the whole, The Lord of the Rings stretches its legs for a good eleven hours and is bar none the most fulfilling adaptation of written literature to film that I've seen, in terms of both depth and breadth. The closure provided in ROTK really hammers this in - and sadly enough, its stellar complexity by filmic standards is sometimes pushed aside by juxtaposition with the book, from which it was necessarily simplified. There's so much going on here, and it all comes together.

"Save it for the DVD" Syndrome

I'll first discuss this in terms of overall pacing, rather than the nitty-gritty of the adaptation decisions themselves.

The first two films, in their theatrical forms, took some pretty hard hits from time constraints and editing choices. After watching the Extended Editions (sans the fuss of changing discs), it is increasingly evident that some of the reinserted material felt indispensible. In Fellowship, the major point of contention was the compression of Book I - that is to say, the somewhat frantic pacing up to the arrival at Rivendell; completely forgiven. In Towers, you had the theatrical version expand III.6 and III.7 considerably, but shafting the Ents and saving a good chunk of both Book III and IV for later. The Return of the King is far closer to Fellowship in terms of how the theatrical version feels - that is to say, almost everything was there, but at times it bordered on rushing.

Case in point: Denethor. Brilliantly portrayed, spot-on insane - but not given nearly enough screentime. This seems odd considering that Denethor's major scenes (V.1, "Minas Tirith" and V.7, "The Pyre of Denethor") are in the film, and he is given a particularly good scene where he voraciously devours grapes while Pippin sings for him and Faramir has just been sent out on his second charge. The suicide scene, on the other hand, feels like it begins and ends all too quickly. The fact that he realizes what he has done to his living son and runs off and jumps is not the problem. The problem is that his big scene is lost in the midst of the battle.

However, it should be made clear that this was a very tightly paced film, and was a literal edge-of-seat experience for 200 minutes that felt more like 150. It does not slow down, and it does not feel long. It's wall-to-wall Tolkien, and that is not a bad thing.

ROTK may be the most successful of the three instalments in terms of not feeling harmed by its time constraints; but as with the first two, it has clearly set itself up to be a case where the DVD edition can and will eclipse the present cut for good. There are too many things that everybody knows were shot but mysteriously absent - the Mouth of Sauron, Merry being made Théoden's squire, and at least one Gandalf-Nazgul confrontation - that ensure this will not end up being the preferred edition.

[IronParrot]

Editing issues II: the denouement

In a word, long. In a final analysis, however, it's hard to perceive how it could be any shorter and be at least plausibly satisfying.

We have a four-stage ending:
1. Rescue by Eagles, last gathering of the Fellowship
2. Aragorn's coronation
3. Return to the Shire:
- a) Drinks at the Green Dragon
- b) Rosie's wedding
- c) Frodo feeling scarred and finishing his part of the Red Book
4. The Grey Havens and "Well, I'm back"

This is already pared down from what Tolkien wrote, obviously. All of the above were also necessary, though the overt wedding of Sam and Rosie in 3b) was perhaps excessive, and felt like Extended Edition material despite being a very brief sequence. This is evidently going to be the fulcrum of contention, the make-it-or-break-it point for general audiences - but it's just something intrinsic to the story.

This is already the case even without the Houses of Healing, an explanation of why Éowyn and Faramir appear as a couple in the coronation scene, the funeral of Théoden, the various amnesties and land redistributions, Éomer's succession to the throne, et cetera. It's hard to imagine what a conventional audience would think of that.

One thing, though: it ends exactly where it should, exactly how it should.

In a nutshell

Look, what can I say? I loved it. I was gripped by every scene, even the more surprising ones. But at the same time, this complete admiration comes with some reservations associated with the knowledge that there's an Extended Edition to come. That does not preclude this film from being a dream come true.

This is not the full extent of my comments on this movie. Expect more.

[Falagar]

I wrote a very extensive review, unfortunately in Norwegian. Perhaps going to translate it later. Gave it a dicethrow somewhere between 3 and 4 (closer to 4 than 3 though).

For those of you who read Norwegian (read: Artanis ;)), you can find it here:
http://www.tolkiens.net/forumet/viewtopic.php?p=42318#42318

[Turambar1982]

won't say much now because i'm just dang tired
hope to write more when i caught up on sleep

just this one now:

I LOVED IT.

it was the best of the trilogy and the best movie i've ever seen.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Artanis]

Nice review and nice site Falagar, and your inbox is full. :D

[Falagar]

Not anymore. ;)

[jellyfishannah]

Ok. First let me complain.
Well, it was mostly little things. Stupid little things. I thought the acting, overall, was very, very good. (as always was) BUT...Legolas was an idiot. I'm sorry fangirls, he just didn't have the same appeal as in the other movies. He was an incarnate Pantene Pro V commercial. (you will hear this a lot from me) They give him hardly ANY lines. And the lines he does have sound like cheap poetry. He's always got this faraway look in his eyes and is always so calm...ugh. I liked him in the last one, 'cause he was starting to seem more...more human. I like the human part of elves. Instead of making them look like gods on earth. Anyway...his one peice of action was completely fake and stupid. (At this point, I turned to my brother and said "Hey. Well, this proves that not only men came from monkeys." :p) It looked like tarzan. :rolleyes: Middle-Earth is not the matrix. An elf cannot do all that junk that our buddy, CGI Legolas, did. Which brings me to another point.
The Oliphaunts. A complete failure. Oliphaunts are supposed to be regular elephants. It should at least not me so huge as to be able to carry a city on it's back!:mad: I always hated this. And then the new rhino thingys was just to much to bear. Anyway...back to characters...
Aragorn...Very cool. Always one of my favorites. But doesn't he get a bit dorky towards the end? Well, the coronation, at least. He sounds like he just won the Miss America beauty pageant. (sp?):p That wasn't anything, though.
Gandalf really bothered me. As he could ride out and flash his little magic staff thingy in the enemies' eyes and the next moment he doesn't have enough power to light a beacon. And has to resort to bopping people in the face with his staff!! (though by that time, I was really hoping to see Denethor wacked with a staff) Another thing is, when Gandalf rides out to bring Faramir and his men....Why does he take Pip with him? :confused:
I liked Pippin singing. Very nice voice. Thank you, Billy Boyd!:)

Arwen. Yuck. I loved Xena-elf. At least she was cool. The way she and Aragorn meet and the end was so stupid. I have to say. If I were 3,000 (or however many) yrs old, I wouldn't act like such an idiot. Giggling and him twirling him around like some...cheeesy...ugh.

The absence of the scouring of the shire was very painful. I missed that the most, I think. Along with the houses of healing. The way they come back in the book is so much more glorious. I wish PJ could've portrayed it on film. Wormtongue was played so perfectly by Brad Dourif. Genius. They could've made the movie much fuller with that part in it.

Who said the grey havens were good? I don't know, but that's not at all how I imagined them to be. Galadriel's endless smiling really got on my nerves. It didn't even look like Cate Blanchett anymore. Maybe they made their own cgi version 'cause she couldn't put up with the butchering of this classic either?confused: :p
This was the part where I was sure they'd go Evolution (anybody ever seen that movie?) and make it into a hair care commercial. :D
That part did not make me cry as I predicted. I cried at a different part, though. The part where Sam says he would've married Rosie. :( So sad...

Well...along with the ceaseless bright whites in the movie that really annoy me and some other junk that I cannot now remember....these are my complaints. I will have good things to say on my second viewing. That's how it was these past two years, too. :rolleyes:

As a whole, I really like these movies...

[jellyfishannah]

Originally posted by Dunedain
There are 2 parts in the movie that stick out as being my favorite right now. The first part is when Elrond gives Aragorn the sword Anduril. I'm not sure if anyone else picked this up, but in speaking to each other they each spoke a piece of what Gilraen (Aragorn's mother) said to Aragorn the last time they saw one another before she died. Elrond says "I give hope to Men" and Aragorn then follows with "I have left none for myself". I thought that was a great/perfect place for them to incorporate one of the best lines Tolkien has written, even though it was tweaked a bit
The other part was the Charge of the Rohirrim onto the Pelannor Fields. I was literally trembling when this happened. First Theoden's speech was awesome and then their charge with the camera angles and everything was quite superb.

These are very good scenes. Especially the Rohirrim charge. I did notice the dialogue between Elrond and Aragorn. In fact, I memorized those lines a few years ago. I liked how they sounded. :P

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jellyfishannah
Legolas was an idiot. I'm sorry fangirls, he just didn't have the same appeal as in the other movies. He was an incarnate Pantene Pro V commercial. (you will hear this a lot from me) They give him hardly ANY lines. And the lines he does have sound like cheap poetry. He's always got this faraway look in his eyes and is always so calm...ugh. I liked him in the last one, 'cause he was starting to seem more...more human. I like the human part of elves. Instead of making them look like gods on earth. Anyway...his one peice of action was completely fake and stupid. (At this point, I turned to my brother and said "Hey. Well, this proves that not only men came from monkeys." :p) It looked like tarzan. :rolleyes: Middle-Earth is not the matrix. An elf cannot do all that junk that our buddy, CGI Legolas, did. Which brings me to another point.
The Oliphaunts. A complete failure. Oliphaunts are supposed to be regular elephants. It should at least not me so huge as to be able to carry a city on it's back!:mad: I always hated this


Just to combat your points. Legolas barely speaks in the books as well...

Oliphaunst ARE NOT supposed to be regular elephants. Tolkien describes them just as they were in the movie, with carrying cities on their backs...

[Sylvee Estel]

Wow. What a movie. I cried throughout almost all of it...
It kept me on the edge of my seat for the whole time, and I loved every minute of it. That is the best movie I have ever seen.

I had a couple problems though... first, the Frodo against Sam thing. Although it was a very tear jerking and powerful moment when Frodo told Sam to go home, I don't think I liked the whole thing.
Also... my biggest complaint... no Eowyn and Faramir. I thought that definately should have been in there.. they could have found time. Hopefully it will make it on the EE.
I didn't mind the never ending ending, but I kept thinking it was over. Each time I got a pleasent surprise when they came back on...
There were some extremely amazing, powerful, wonderful, and spectacular moments in that movie. Eowyn and the witchking... Sam saying he wanted to marry Rosie, Shelob... I could go one forever.
I had expected this movie to be the best movie... and it was even better. I can't wait to go see it again!

[Gerbil]

Not cities, but much much larger than regular eliphants - I can't remember where, but I think 5 to 10 times the size was meant.

Has anyone got any thoughts on the suicide charge? I read one review that claimed it was 'known as the best edited scene in film ever' which is such a bold and stupid quote I wondered what you guys thought?

8 days until I can see it :/

[hectorberlioz]

despite all those horrid arwen scenes, the absolute worst part of the movie is not a character change, it is not a dialogue change, it is the fact that there were way too many bad guys in the army of mordor.
it seems to me that mordor could have wiped out gondor with a snap of its fingers.
the oliphants were so unrealistically real, the trolls were idioticly huge(again, it seems like it wouldnt take much for mordor to destroy men, elves etc...in the flick of an eye) the nazgul seemed like they didnt do anything for all the power they supposedly possess.
and where the heck did rohan get so many soldiers? even eomer didnt bring that many men with him in TTT.
and i hate that ugly orc with the seriously deformed face.
ok, now to the other negative stuff....(dont worry i'll name the stuff i thought was good too)
arwen, once again we have boob flashing princess(i almost perfer xena-elf). everytime arwen came on screen, i groaned. same goes for elrond/agent smith/indian cheif.
the whole gollum making frodo hate sam was ridiculously unrealistic. not to mention it was over lembas.
denethor wasnt as bad as i thought he would be. but gandalf! he is such a jerk! he snobbily makes pippin get up afte pippin pledges his life to denethors...just doesnt seem like gandalf to me...
the dead army was so bad i had to look past it because i dont know how to criticise something like that...
and 'ride him buckoe' gollum was really bad. i am referring to gollums rodeo stunts on the cracks of doom when he is riding frodo.
legolas/tarzan was for the fan girls....
and frodo's stunt over the edge....:mad: what did it do? nothing, thats why it should've been cut.
i remember one part that was so bad, that i felt tears in my eyes...
and there was only one part that actually was moving, and i felt tears in my eyes...of course now i cant remember either of those parts.

now for the goods.

shelobs lair was very well done, and so was the capture of frodo.
eowyn and merry had a good amount of screen time together, and overall their relationship was good.
pippin was excellant i think, i almost forgive him his past crimes...
faramir was good.

another thing that annoyed me was the fact that aragorn, gimli, legolas, gandalf, eomer etc...are reduced to action figures.
i hope you guys think i'm fair in judgement...:D

[Dúnedain]

Quote from Sam in The Two Towers:

But I've heard tales of the big folk down away in the Sunlands. Swertings we all 'em in our tales; and they ride on oliphaunts, 'tis said, when they fight. They puts houses and towers on the oliphauntses backs and all, and the oliphaunts throw rocks and trees at one another.

Then later on we see this:

Sam saw a vast shape crach out of the trees and come careering down the slope. Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to him, a grey-clad moving hill...

...rocking the ground beneath their feet: his great legs like trees, enormouse sail-like ears spread out, long snout upraised like a huge serpent about to strike, his small red eyes raging. His upturned hornlike tusks were bond with bands of gold and dripping with blood. His trappings of scarlet and gold flapped about him in wild tatters. The ruins of what seemed a very war-tower lay upon his heaving back, smashed his furious passage through the woods; and high upon his neck still desperately clung a tiny figure - the body of a mighty warrier, a giant among the Swertings.

They are also described the same way in Return of the King...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
the whole gollum making frodo hate sam was ridiculously unrealistic. not to mention it was over lembas.


Uhhh no, the part that snapped Frodo was when Sam offered to carry the Ring for him, just as Gollum said he would and that he wanted it for himself, the lembas was a minor piece of it...

[hectorberlioz]

Dunadain's post
Uhhh no, the part that snapped Frodo was when Sam offered to carry the Ring for him, just as Gollum said he would and that he wanted it for himself, the lembas was a minor piece of it...
no, it was over lembas. that ring thing was only half of it. and that whole sequence was still unrealistic and in a way...corny.

btw, oliphaunts were supposed to be bigger than houses, not bigger than minas tirith.
(btw, i think the look of minas tirith was wonderful)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
btw, oliphaunts were supposed to be bigger than houses, not bigger than minas tirith.
(btw, i think the look of minas tirith was wonderful)

How can you say they are bigger than Minas Tirith? They were about half the height of the outter walls...

[hectorberlioz]

well they were definitely unrealisticly huge.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
well they were definitely unrealisticly huge.

lol, that's how Tolkien describes them...

[Tessar]

Oh. My. God.


That was, without a doubt, the best movie I have EVER SEEN!!!! :eek:


This one TOTALLY blows the other two out of the water... I mean this was THE movie!!!! :D


YAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
well they were definitely unrealisticly huge. That's the oddest quote I've heard when being applied to a fictitious creation....

[Arandir]

On the whole, I enjoyed the movie (as I have the preceding ones). It was visually stunning in almost every respect. I didn't expect the movies to follow the book in every detail, and while I thought some of the digressions in TTT were a bit too much, they were less glaring in ROTK. I missed the confrontation at Isengard, however, and smell inserted scenes for the expanded DVD (after all, with Orthanc intact, just how did the palantir wind up in the water?). The Scouring of the Shire was also missed, since it shows both the growth of the four Hobbits and the effects of the sorely missed absence of the heretofore unthanked Rangers. But as several have commented, the length of ending of the movie has caused some disquiet (not for me, however). A fully realized Scouring of the Shire sequence probably would have added a good fifteen minutes to the run time. I could list all the little moments they captured well, as well as the ones they missed. But when I want to relieve the latter, I'll just reread the books and hear the voices of the characters and see their faces in my mind. At the risk of my post running as long as the film, I'll end this here.

[Bridgette]

I loved it!!! I think it was absolutly brilliant! Sure, it had its faults but most movies do. :D But now I've got nothing left to look forward to.... :(

[eowyngirl14]

saw it last nigth at 12:05 with 4 of my friends.

okayi have to tell a funny story first. we stopped at Starbucks on the way and a PartyCity across the street started smoking randomly and then 2 firetrucks showed up and soem cops. so while we were waiting for them to stop blockign the road my friend Nick went to this online 8ball thing on his phone and asked it if i was gunna die before i saw Rotk. it said yes, in the dead of winter the worst will happen. (its a little smarter than your average 8ball) so we asked it 3 more times to be surea nd it said the exact same thing, but then we asked it if my friend Laura would marry Legolas, and it said no- sucks for u. (lol) and i was sure the PartyCity was gunna blow up and id die!!!

ya anyways- so ROTK was awesoem! my favorite movie. although some of the affects were a little off like when frodo runs into mt. doom he is mobing quiker than his feet so he is kinda like gliding or something. and i think there was too much comic reliefe. we didnt need all that reliefe. the left out a lot but didnt change anything which i liked. whenever they showed the eye my friend would say 'peek a boo' really loudly which was annoying.

sam was perfect! i love his charecter. i cried so much which is a good sign in my opinion. when frodo told him to go home i started like bawling. it was really sad! i dontremember denethor jumping off the tower but that shot of him as a flaming ball plummetting towards the ground was awesome.

[b.banner]

in my opinion it wasnt a very good adaption of the book .but it wasnt avery bad movie i actually enjoyed it:D .

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I'd have to come down in the middle of estimations of ROTK.
That is, on an A to F grading I'd give
FOTR---A-
TTT-----C+
ROTK---B

Some were well done, Eowyn, Sam, the Grey Havens, the Eagles, and Theoden played up well except for one lapse, but.....

1) the green slime Army of the Dead reminded me of Ghostbusters (Bill Murray would have done a better job getting through).
2) Gandalf (twice!!!) assaulting the Steward. After the first shot at Denethor the Guard would have skewered him. And it really demeaned Denethor's character. And Denethor's movie demise! I mean, really! (It was almost funny, Gandalf using the line from the book, while Denethor takes a dive (he got a 9.5 though).
3) Theoden still holding a hissing fit at Gondor for not helping him. (HELLO, Theoden, Gondor goes, guess who's next?).
4) The plot involving the lighting of the signal fires by Pippin against Denethor's wishes (AGH!!!!!).
5) Oh yes, and Gandalf reduced to using a sword instead of the confrontation outside the gates of Minas Tirith.
6) The Houses of Healing??? Apparently hobbits are really superhobbits, since Merry was at the Black Gate.

[Falagar]

A short note:
I think the movie was too hasty (as Treebeard would have said it): it rushed through the story and forgot some key elements on the way (like to explain how Aragorn suddenly was recogniced as king of Gondor and no-one even wondering where Denethor was, not building up the siege enough to make the attack really exciting and it forgot to describe what made Theoden change his mind about helping Gondor).

[azalea]

I developed the flu last night, but went to see it today anyway since I already had my ticket. I'm sure I'll enjoy it more next viewing since I am very sick and was uncomfortable during the movie. (Plus the theater was crowded and someone kept sparking up, which irritated my throat.:mad: Idiots, getting stoned in the theater, at RotK no less!:mad: ) I'll have more to say when I'm feeling better.

As for the movie, I did enjoy it, but I still think it felt too rushed. I don't know how this could have been avoided though, aside from doing another movie. It was so long, that I now appreciate why there was no scouring. I had no prob w/ the endings, but I agree that there could have been more dialog (and that goes for the whole movie). I still like FotR the best, and I think (besides the fact that it is my favorite book of the three) it's because in Fellowship he had to establish the characters, which forced there to be a lot of dialog, whereas by this time, he is focusing mainly on the events, not the characters. I felt this was a weakness, as I didn't feel as intimate with any of the characters (besides Sam and Pippin -- they both had some great scenes), and this is important to me (ie, I would have substituted some battle scenes with Houses of Healing and the like, because it is in those scenes that the viewer can interact with the character). Shelob was great. There were several times when I said a line to myself that a character was supposed to say at certain points, then they did say it! I was pleasantly surprised that so many of the good lines were included.:) ("you can't go walking in Mordor in naught but your skin" -- I loved it!)
I didn't like a couple of things that were done, such as Gandalf attacking Denethor, and even pushing him into the fire!:confused: I think keeping that scene just a little truer to the book (including more dialog) would have been better. Denethor should have gotten more lines from the book or adapted from the book to establish his character a little more.
Same with Faramir, and even the others. It was like PJ had gone to a lot of trouble in the first two movies to establish these characters and give them depth and relationship with one another, but made the events the focus of this movie to the detrement of the characters and their relationships. There were plenty of good lines and interactions, but more would have been better. And of course I realize the time factor, but I would have just cut down the time spent on some of the fighting.
I loved the Smeagol/ Deagol sequence, but I felt that instead of the whole "Sam turns back" thing, they could have just kept it true to the book and it would have been just as visually effective. There was so much more verbal interaction between Sam and Frodo that could have been used, like in Cirith Ungol, and I missed Sam's song there.:( Also, the destruction of the ring scene was pretty good, but I didn't like Frodo going back in at Gollum, then falling over the edge (although I predicted that would happen as a "foil" to his pulling Sam out of the water in FotR). Plus Gollum being engulfed by the magma was a little too graphic for my tastes.
Nonetheless, it was overall a fantastic movie, my main complaint being that it wasn't done the way I'd have done it.;) I'll be seeing it again next week, and I know I'll enjoy it more then.

[macmico]

excellent movie im impressed

i left with that shivery feeling all down my back and still have it so i dont want to get into the why's and the where-fors ill leave that till tomorrow

very good adaptation apart from the obvious ??????

did you see legolas and eowyn for that matter kick some mumakil ass.

and who noticed glorfindel???????

[claudia silver]

And why didn't Shadowfax get to go on the boat to the Undying Lands? :mad:

Minor quibble I know but very sad especially if you are Shadowfax:(

[obscenename]

First, the good far outweigh the bad. The best of the three
<B>Highlights</B>
All of the battle scenes
Theoden's exhortation and Eowyn/Dernhelm eventually joining in the shouting before the charge
Any scene with Miranda Otto
Theoden repeating his line from TT when he sees Eowyn "I know your face. Eowyn"
Shelob and Cirith Ungol
Aragorn sighing before turning to speak to the people of Gondor
Gimli as comedian toned way down
The beacons
Aragorn kneeling before the hobbits
The hobbits being amazed that the Shire hadn't changed a bit while at the Green Dragon
Many other little things

<B>Lowlights</B>
Arwen
Slow motion romping on the bed (way over the top)
Why are the dead green?
Too much crying
Too much whispering
Too much original screenplay
Supposedly dead-tired hobbits traveling for days without food or water
No mention of the killing of the Witch King at all
Closeup of hairy feet. We got it from the first movie. They had hairy feet
Falling over and then hanging on to the cliff? Sure it was a parallel to Gandalf's plight in FOTR but it was too trite. That happens to Wiley Coyote.
The Lidless Eye as a searchlight
Arwen

<B>Some Lights I was disappointed not to see that may not make the EE</B>
Gandalf facing down the Witch King at the gate
Mouth of Sauron
Someone remarking on the size of Merry and Pippin
Some explanation of what Galadriel and Celeborn did to help, if anything
Aragorn and Theoden arguing about taking the Paths of the Dead
Aragorn looking in the palantir
More conversation with Treebeard
Gimli and Legolas enjoying some rest in Isengard with Merry and Pippin

I loved the movie even though I cringed at some of the dialogue and everytime Arwen was on the screen. I'll see it a few more times and then start salivating over the EE 11 months from now.

[The Ben]

Wow. I saw the trilogy last night with IP. Simply amazing

[Cirdan]

I reviewed in the adaptation thread.

Did I miss something? Maybe I looked away for a second. How did Sam end up with the phial? One minute Frodo is warding off Shelob with it and the next minute Sam is running toward him with it.

JRRT described oliphaunts as being "as big as a house" so I guess it depends where you live.:D

[Nurvingiel]

Nurvingiel's Return of the King Review of Doom

I greatly enjoyed watching The Return of the King. It was a very good movie - the best of the three, slightly better than Fellowship and much better than Two Towers. My favourite part of the entire movie was Eowyn and Merry's battle with the Witch-King. It was suspensful, terrifying, and beautiful. Mirando Otto is brilliant in all her scenes. Her parting with Aragorn before he went on the Paths of the dead was moving.
To get this over with, I felt it was pointlessly dramatic for Frodo to send Sam away, and I cringed in revulsion at all of Denethor's dreadful scenes, especially Gandalf's assault on him (twice!) However, these are rants appropriate to the adaptation thread.
Though I felt Orlando, I mean... Legolas' stunt with the Mumak was unnecessary, all the battle scenes were fantastic and wonderfully choreographed. Gimli's one-liner (after the stunt) was surprisingly not awful, and was amazingly... worth a laugh!
The siege on Minas Tirith was amazing. Minas Tirith was a beautiful, exciting city, and the siege was, for the most part, portrayed very well. Grond was extremely cool, and I noticed the appropriate three strokes were delivered to shatter the beautiful gates. I missed the scene between the Witch-King and Gandalf there, but they smoothed over the absence.
The scene with Pippin and the Palantir was much better than I had anticipated. For the rest of the movie, Pippin was excellent. He shone in the fairly small amounts of camera time he had - a veritable Prince of the Halflings. I loved the scene where he pledged fealty to Denethor, but Gandalf should not have rudely interrupted.
Gandalf was unfortunately almost as big a jerk as Denethor, which was disappointing since Sir Ian McKellen is an excellent actor, and very well cast as Gandalf.
This was Arwen's best movie - she got to marry Aragorn! Or did she? She emerges from behind the banner, Aragorn sees her, their eyes meet, they kiss... I enjoyed their reunion actually, I found it touching. What I want to know is, after all the made up scenes with Arwen, after all the time her scenes detracted from the real plot, why didn't she get to marry Aragorn properly? Their marriage was only implied by the acceptance of the (usually angry-faced) Elrond. I was looking forward to that part. Disappointed.
Saving the best for last, Frodo and Sam were awesome. The bravery of the Hobbits really shone through. Sam carrying Frodo up Orodruin was moving and powerful.
The scene of the destruction of the Ring was awesome! The pointless addition of Frodo also falling off the cliff did not ruin the impact in the least. It was obviously done to add extra drama, but none needed to be added! This part was extremely well done, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum were all great.

Overall this was a great action movie. The good far outweighs the bad, and I throroughlly enjoyed it.

I went in with low expectations, which Return of the King exceeded brilliantly.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I reviewed in the adaptation thread.

Did I miss something? Maybe I looked away for a second. How did Sam end up with the phial? One minute Frodo is warding off Shelob with it and the next minute Sam is running toward him with it.

JRRT described oliphaunts as being "as big as a house" so I guess it depends where you live.:D
Frodo dropped it running away from Shelob.

[Khamûl]

I have but one word: Wow. And there are not enough letters in that word to aptly depict my level of amazement.

Things I liked:
The charge of the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields. So stirring that I actually teared up.
Grond. How incredibly cool was that?
Eowyn slaying the Witch-king with some help from Merry.
The absolutely breathtaking scenery. Minas Tirith was gorgeous.
Sam's speech on the slopes of Mt. Doom.
The orcs catapulting the severed heads of the Gondorians who fell in battle into the city. I knew PJ couldn't pass that up.
Using the same shot of Deagol's hand grabbing the Ring from the bottom of the Anduin that they used in the prologue to FotR.

Aww crap... let's just say 99.5% of the movie. :D

Things I didn't like:
Gandalf bopping Denethor with his staff.
Arwen's life force being "bound" to the Ring.
Sauron, the evil lighthouse. I didn't imagine his eye physically scanning the plain of Gorgoroth.
Probably some other stuff I'm forgetting at the moment.

Things I'm undecided about:
Frodo sending Sam away. I'm leaning more towards liking this than not, but I'm not 100% sure.
I also have unanswered questions, many of which Falagar posted earlier in this thread.

In closing, I am blown away by this movie. I lowered my expectations after TTT, but this was beyond all of them. I honestly did not expect this movie to be this good. This requires many more viewings.

[Elenessiel]

One real gem that no one has mentioned yet:
Theoden's double-take upon seeing Eowyn at the Pelennor Fields. It was priceless, and followed by some suitably touching stuff.

[Elvengirl]

WOW! That was awesome!

My feelings on the movie would probably be
:D :D :D with a couple of :confused: :rolleyes: :mad: :( thrown in :D
I am so totally impressed at the end result.
I'll give more on my thoughts later, right now I'm just well going to enjoy what I just saw.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Frodo dropped it running away from Shelob.

Thanks. Guess I might need to see it again in a few weeks.;)

[Finrod Felagund]

Saw it again last night. There was actually applause when Eowyn cut the Fell-Beast's head off...awesome!

[Arien the Maia]

ok I saw it last night at 7:30 and then I saw it again at around 1:00 am b/c my friend works at a movie theater and we had a private viewing!!!

Overall it was an AWESOME movie! like, many other mooters here, I liked it SOOOO much better than TTT and I would have to say that it was as good as FOTR.

I agree that Legolas' stunt was kinda ridiculous (no elf could do that really!) and I missed the Mouth of Sauron and the Wedding and all.

I'm going to see it again this weekend!!!
I teared up at the meeting of ARagorn and Arwen (the supposed wedding....one of the most unlikely places I would have expected to tear up!) and also the charge of the Rohirrim.

I was however, annoyed by Gandlaf's "bop" on Denethor! I mean COME ON!!! Frodo sending Sam away was unnecessary drama and well as Frodo's "fall off the cliff". Not to mention Gollum's frequent return to assult Frodo and Sam....it would have been way more dramatic to just show him sneaking along behind them from time to time and then when he hits Sam on the head that would have been more dramatic IMO.

but COOL MOVIE!

[hectorberlioz]

i feel that the destruction of the ring could have been more powerful.
it was too slow in the movie.
i mean here's frodo who takes about ten yrs before he says anything, and then he whispers it!
in the book, frodo's voice is loud and clear and bold.
showing the actual (and slow) destruction of the ring in the fire was a very bad choice to make. and showing gollum falling all the way down and watching him melt was also very bad.
gollums 2 minutes before he starts dancing on the crack of doom was extremely frustrating to watch for me. and watching frodo put the ring on slowly took away from the drama of it all.
also i felt that the look of the place where the ring gets destroyed is too big. i dont know about you guys, but i always imagined a smaller door and a smaller crack of doom.
and frodo's falling in was ridiculous.

this is what the destruction of the ring could have been

exactly like the book with
frodo's boldness
gollums insanity when he laughs and dances on the edge of doom
a dramatic struggle between gollum and an invisible frodo: on the ground! not with gollum's rodeo stunts.


btw Dunadain, i dont remember Tolkien describing the Oliphaunts as unrealistically huge...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
"showing the actual (and slow) destruction of the ring in the fire was a very bad choice to make. and showing gollum falling all the way down and watching him melt was also very bad.
gollums 2 minutes before he starts dancing on the crack of doom was extremely frustrating to watch for me"
__________________________________________

Yess, hectorberlioz is always nice to poor Smeagol, not like nassty PJ and friends.
_______________________________________________

"This is what the destruction of the ring could have been,
exactly like the book with frodo's boldness
gollums insanity when he laughs and dances on the edge of doom
a dramatic struggle between gollum and an invisible frodo: on the ground! not with gollum's rodeo stunts."
____________________________________________
Correct! But then it wouldn't have been an "adaptation" by PJ :rolleyes:

"btw Dunadain, i dont remember Tolkien describing the Oliphaunts as unrealistically huge..."
_______________________________________
You are again correct. But by now it should be obvious that PJ has a weakness for "cinema gigantiantness" [hmm, I'd better check the OED to see if that's a real word, okay, it's probably not], recall the wargs on steroids.:eek:

[Almie]

It was better than TTT, at least!

I liked
The beginning with Sméagol and Déagol fishing.
Frodo's journey overall, especially Minas Morgul (the Nazgul fortress) and Shelop (scary!).
The scenery.
The Nazguls are creepy.
I liked Pippin's character development a lot. His interaction with Denethor was cool.
Minas Tirith was a magnificent city. It was better than I could have been imagined.
Gandalf is always great, and this movie was not an exception.
Gollum -It's sometimes difficult to remember that he's computer generated... although during the Mount Doom scene that was clear.
The Grey Havens scene was beautiful, as it should be.

I didn't like
The way how Gollum turned Frodo against Sam -it was a more complicated situation between those three in the book. Throwing lembas away was a bit cheap.
I would have liked to see the scene where Sam takes the ring from Frodo -I hope it will be in the extended edition. It should be there.
No scouring of the Shire -but I knew this beforehand.
The PalantÃ*r scene wasn't what I wanted. It was too action-heavy, when I'd have liked to see it as some kind of a psychological thriller scene.
The forced laugh of the characters after Frodo wakes up in Minas Tirith, and everybody acts so happy -I found that scene poorly acted (maybe except Ian McKellen).

And I agree what hectorberlioz said about the destruction of the ring scene.
Originally posted by hectorberlioz
i dont remember Tolkien describing the Oliphaunts as unrealistically huge... A Star Wars association: Did anyone else think of The Empire Strikes Back, and the Imperial walkers in Hoth battle, when you saw the Oliphaunts?! :D

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Correct! But then it wouldn't have been an "adaptation" by PJ :rolleyes:

Not EVERYTHING has to be changed for it to be an adaptation. :rolleyes: It's an adaptation - by just bringing it from book to screen - even if the dialog and action and events were EXACTLY as Tolkien has them in the books.

I agree with Hector - Frodo declaring the ring his was really weak. He should have been stronger when he did it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Almie
A Star Wars association: Did anyone else think of The Empire Strikes Back, and the Imperial walkers in Hoth battle, when you saw the Oliphaunts?! :D
This is the thing that gets me - a good director doesn't bring out things that remind you of other movies. I find myself too many times during Jackson's movies thinking of other movies.

Concerning the Lembas scene - there was NO WAY gollum would even touch the bread. He hated all things elven and would never touch it, let alone break it apart and sprinkle it on Sam.

[Varda Oiolosseo]

I thought it was fantastic.

Things i liked:
- Some scenes were just so clever like the opening scene with Smeagol, thats was great.
- Minis Tirith!!! Oh my gosh i want to live there!
- The bit when Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn were going into the paths of the dead and Gimli was moaning about an Elf going underground but a dwarf being to scared lol that was funny.
- Pelenor fields and the charge of the Rohirrium army
- Shelob! She was so scary!
- The Ringwraiths that screech just went straight through me!
- The way Faramir was so nice compared to the way he was put across in TTT
- The Grey Havens (absolutly fantastic!)
- The scene with all the Fellowship together for the final time (except Boromir obviously) and it just reminded me of the Fellowhip together for the first time in the first film. It was a cheesy scene but i really liked it.


Things i didn't like:
(very few)
- I wasn't too happy with the way Denethor was put across and i felt physically sick when he was eating, it was horrible lol. ;)
- I wish they had shown more of the Houses of Healing
- More of Faramir and Eowyn together because they only showed one shot of them stood together.
- That one orc that didn't look like an orc to me, i don't know why!


Overall it's deffinatly the best film of the trilogy and i couldn't stop crying and if it doesn't wipe the boards at the Oscars etc then i can imagine a lot of people aren't going to be to happy including me!!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Varda Oiolosseo

- That one orc that didn't look like an orc to me, i don't know why!



are you talking about the "Elephant Man" Orc? That's what me and my friend called him!!! he had peach skin

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
are you talking about the "Elephant Man" Orc? That's what me and my friend called him!!! he had peach skin
I call him elephant man orc too. :D

I was trying to find a picture of him by the way -if anyone has one.

[hectorberlioz]

lol! thats what i called him too!:D
he bugged me the whole time. i was wishing he'd die a quick death, then when that boulder didnt kill him, i was really mad!:mad:

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
lol! thats what i called him too!:D
he bugged me the whole time. i was wishing he'd die a quick death, then when that boulder didnt kill him, i was really mad!:mad:

I know! he was sooo gross!

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I know! he was sooo gross!

yeah, he was so despicable. not like grishnak despicable. this guy was just plain horrid.
he's one of those guys whom you want to die immediatly.
just the ugliest guy i have seen in a movie for a long time...

[Elvengirl]

I definitely want to see this movie again. One reason being that it was soo awesome, another reason is because a whole bunch of giggling teenagers sitting next to me wouldn't shut up. :rolleyes:

But about the movie; I was totally blown away. It completely exceeded my expectations. I agree with most of you on my likes and dislikes.

I loved the hobbits. Merry and Pippin were excellent in all their scenes. Sam...well I wanted to cheer when he picked up Frodo! And I was impressed with Frodo. He was exactly how I pictured him to be.
The ride of the Rohirrim was probably the best cavalry charge I have ever seen!
Eowyn, she was awesome, taking down the Witch-King with Merry's help!
The scenery was perfect. I was once more back in Middle Earth exactly how it should be.
Arwen was great. I actually like her in this one,but what was with her fate being bound to the ring. :confused:
Grey Havens.... that was beautiful.
The climactic scene with the destruction of the ring and the confrontation on the black gates was soo exciting!

I feel as if I am babbling :o but there was so much more that I liked! It did not feel as if it was 3 1/2 hours long. I just can't wait until the extended. :D

I think the most aggravating scenes for me were Frodo turning Sam away and Denethor's ridiculous death scene.:rolleyes: There are a few other small complaints. I would have like to see more on Faramir and Eowyn, the House of Healing (but I have seen pictures for it so it should be in the extended) and Legolas and Gimli.

I think this is my favorite of the trilogy or maybe tied with FOTR.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
btw Dunadain, i dont remember Tolkien describing the Oliphaunts as unrealistically huge...

Nice try, but they weren't unrealistically huge. Tolkien describes them to carry HOUSES and TOWERS on their backs, which is exactly what was shown in the movie. No modern elephant would be able to carry HOUSES and TOWERS on their backs, thus Oliphaunts would have to be giant in comparision to Elephants. :rolleyes:

[Telcontar]

I'll have to see it again to fully appreciate it. It's been a long time since I've wanted to see a movie more than once in the theater. I think I'll see it at least 4 times. One down, three to go!

The only things I can think of that changed were:
1) Saruman left out - I think it wasn't too necessary though, Gandalf made a statement saying that he no longer had any power. And he entrusted the Ents to watch over Isengard until he came back. I don't think it was crucial to have Saruman in the movie, it was just a nicety to have him fully mentioned in the book.
2) Scouring of the Shire left out - This kind of goes with my Saruman point of view b/c how could you do this part if Saruman was not involved? They kind of go hand in hand. But the most important part for not having this scene is b/c it definitely would have an anti-climatic effect on the movie. You have the end of the major struggle at the crowing of Aragorn, that is enough to start the conclusion. To have the Scouring would have added another climatic point. To me, it wasn't necessary especially since the narrator made a statement about the Hobbits returning and doing many great things (at least I'm sure that was said).
3) No Palantir with Denethor - Left out, but excusable when he told Gandalf that he knew about Aragorn and some other stuff. That could've meant he was told the info by someone else, but the Palantir could be added in the EE. The bad thing is that it didn't mention how he had seen Sauron in the Palantir and to explain his despair from Sauron's trickery and not for just the loss of Boromir.
4) Left out characters - I can understand leaving out the wild men, but they should've had Prince Imrahil at least. But on the other hand, they'd have to introduce a whole new character. That takes more time away.
5) Sam leaving - Of all the changes, I thought this was the worst. During the movie I thought Sam was either going to dispute Frodo's dismissal, or at least secretly follow him. Not whimper while falling down the stairs like a wuss.
6) Houses of Healing - But I can understand why it was left out (time constraints), and will be included in the EE.
7)Gandalf vs. The Mouth of Sauron.
For the non-fan, this stuff wouldn't even really matter. It's only cause we've read the books and know the story well that it bothers us. But to look at it from an overall audience perspective, I thought it was awesome.

Anyway, too many parts of the movie to list that were good. I thought it followed the book quite well. Stuff I thought was really great:
Paths of the Dead scene - This was amazing. I like the way it was adapted for the screenplay.
The Battering ram with fire.
The trolls going into Minas Tirith.
The white tree shown as dead but then flowering again at the coronation.
Denethor and Faramir's performance during the whole "I wish you would've died instead" scene. Did you see Faramir's eyes well up? I thought that was awesome. It really struck me as intense and sincere.
Sam and Frodo at Mount Doom.
I liked the way Gollum tried to make Sam look bad.
Actually, I liked the whole freakin' thing. I shouldn't even list it all except for the stuff I didn't like but understood their change or dismissal. The Grey Havens was perfect. Don't think it could've been any better especially since it's the part that really made my eyes well up.

I sure hope that it will win Best Picture at every awards presentation. Not biased or anything, :rolleyes: but I think it beats Braveheart and Gladiator as far as the entire movie. The shear utter despair, the triumphs and losses, and ultimate hope was absolutely captivating, along with breathtaking action and many sincere points of the film.

Got much more to say, but I gotta go.

[Khamûl]

It was a great movie, but concerning the Imperial Walkers on Hoth and the Oliphaunts -- yes, that thought crossed my mind. Must have been the camera angles. And I don't call him "Elephant-man orc", I call him "Sloth" because he reminds me of that character from The Goonies. "Hey you guys!":D

I must see this movie again.

[Elvengirl]

Originally posted by Telcontar
The white tree shown as dead but then flowering again at the coronation.


Was it? Oh, I didn't notice that.:( We'll now I have another reason to see the movie again. :D

Btw, there's nothing wrong with the Oliphaunts. They were exactly as described in the books.

[Tolman Muggworts]

I thought that the Mumakil ruled.

[Evenstar1400]

I loved the movie. All the hobbits were so... awesome, and I loved Legolas's oliphaunt thing, and Gimili's sense of humor.

Yes I did cry on and off during the movie, and cried straight through the last hour or so.

Must go see again. Too bad I dont have time this weekend. But xmas break starts soon, and then Ill have all the time in the world.

[zinnite]

I liked the Pelennor battle, except for the Legolas stunt and the Army of the Dead bit. Way too cheesy.

Elephant Man Orc: was it just me, or did he have the same voice as Dr. Claw or whatever his name was from the Inspector Gadget cartoons?

The Eagles were wonderfully done.

Sauron as a spotlight. Enough said.

The Witch King: Even though he's the main "bad guy" that people have to actually face in battle, Jackson waits until halfway through the final movie to officially introduce him. Not cool. It seems he spent more time building up the badness of the Oliphaunt driver.

Okay movie, but it seemed like it was really rushed just to get to the battle, and once in the battle, it keeps moving to other scenes at a far too rapid pace. I could have used a lot more story and a lot less action

[The Dunedain]

The Good
-All the scenes with the Witch King
-SHELOB
-All the Mount Doom scenes were nerve wracking and spectacular
-Gandalf Fighting
-The dead
-The mumakil
-Farimers charge and return
-THE Charge of the Rohirrum was so beutiful, I got gooesbumps and tears at the same time
-The Entire battle of the Pellinor Fields
-Grond! Grond! Not only did we see it and did the orcs call it by it's name, but Grond looked awesome
-The Plantir
-The singing about the green dragon

The Bad
- The whole Wedge between Sam and Frodo. PJ should have not included it, but since he did, Sam should have disapered from our eyes, until the scene where he confront Shelob
-The eye of Sauron is not a spotlight
-Gorbag(The orc) wants the mithril shirt. PJ got it backwards


The Ugly
-That after seeing Frodo, the eye of Sauron let him go on!
-The fact that Frodo, with the RING, went within a mile of the Witch King

[Falagar]

I wrote a really, really bad review on another english board, and since I don't have the patients/will to write a new one (or translate my Norwegian one) I'll just quote it here:
I'll start off with the part that annoyed me the most:
Sauron the lighthousekeeper! God I dislike that stupid eye. And when the light stopped on Frodo (and Sam) on the plains of Gorgoth, it felt as if they where in the middle of a musical (spotlight's on!). I was partly expecting them both to break out in song.

As you may have guessed, this is another one of those personal-opinon-threads. So I'll just continue to rant.

Another thing which bothered me was that they went too fast through the story. This has nothing to do with changing the book, but watching the movie felt like seeing the story in fast foreward.
There was not enough tension at the sieging of Minas Tirith, they attacked almost right after having arrived. After the battle the whole army managed to assemble, placed under command of Aragorn, accept Aragorn as their new leader (no-one asking for Denethor?) and walk all the way from the Pellenor to Morannon without letting us know.
Frodo and Sam was in one scene fully dressed up as Orcs, and in the next in their normal clothes (which I can't remember that they even packed before they moved on). And though the scene where Eowyn slays the Nazgûl was good enough, it passed by too fast.

And then over to bashing a plot-hole:
Sam turning back to Frodo after finding the lembas. Why? He must have already known that Gollum had thrown them down the hill or hid them. No point in going back only because of that. And we never get to know what Denethor feels after Gandalf hitting him. He just disappears, and shows up again in time to burn himself.

Which brings me on to the scene I disliked the most: Gandalf beating up Denethor. A stupid scene, which goes against much of his policy of counseling and protecting only. Wholly out of character, IMO.

And the relationships between Aragorn and Eomer/Aragorn and Faramir/Faramir and Eowyn (who gets togeter at the end) are not mentioned at all. We don't get to know what Faramir felt towards Aragorn, what Eomer thought of suddenly meeting Aragorn again when he thought they would never meet again (or what he thought at all about Aragorn leaving, actually).

Now you probably/perhaps expect me to say that I hate these movies, and that I want to kill PJ. You will be disappointed. I actually liked this movie very, very much. The scene where Faramir, in an attempt to redeem himself in the eyes of his father, hopelessly charges Sauron's forces at Osgiliath is beautiful, and one of the best I've ever seen anywhere (though the slurping of Denethor sometimes interrupted that beautiful song).
And the charge of the Rohirrim was Very Well Done. And the Greyhavens. And I'm almost glad they didn't include the scouring.

All in all a very good film (I loved it, despite all the bad stuff), but it goes too fast and forgets to explain some things along the way.


PS: By the way, I do not mind many of changes from book to movie - had expected them. Therefore I don't include themm in a review of the movie. Most of the things above are (I hope) things which have very little to do with the books.

[Finrod Felagund]

You know, we got so much development from Pippin, and missed merry's. I think (and hope) more Merry/Theoden/Rohirrim will be in the DVD.

[hectorberlioz]

yeah, pippin was the best thing about rotk in my opinion.
awww:( his song is so beautiful...i didnt actually think there was goingo to be any singing in it, but it was a pleasant surprise!:D

[Falagar]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
yeah, pippin was the best thing about rotk in my opinion.
awww:( his song is so beautiful...i didnt actually think there was goingo to be any singing in it, but it was a pleasant surprise!:D
True. I was almost expecting one of the drinking-songs from the Shire, but was pleasantly surprised (the best thing, it is put together by lines from one of Bilbo's songs).

[Finrod Felagund]

But there was a Shire drinking song...:D

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
But there was a Shire drinking song...:D
Which is exactly why I feared another one. ;)

[hectorberlioz]

yeah, that was ok, but that wasnt emotionally wracking.

hey, lets have a vote for best part in rotk.
i vote pippins song.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
yeah, that was ok, but that wasnt emotionally wracking.

hey, lets have a vote for best part in rotk.
i vote pippins song.
Same here. A beautiful scene.

On a second place I'll put the charge of the Rohirrim. My whole body shook when the horses trampled down the hill...

[Elvengirl]

I like your review Falagar. :)

I don't really have a problem with the Eye of Sauron, but I did have a problem with the fact that he saw Frodo and then seemed to disregard him. That seemed ridiculous.

My favorite part, that is hard to choose, I have so many.
The Rohirrim was spectacular, but I'd say Sam's carrying Frodo and the whole scene with the destructrion of the ring.

I didn't really get to enjoy the beauty of Pippin's song, because a lot of a group next to me were laughing hysterically :rolleyes:

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
I like your review Falagar. :)

I don't really have a problem with the Eye of Sauron, but I did have a problem with the fact that he saw Frodo and then seemed to disregard him. That seemed ridiculous.

My favorite part, that is hard to choose, I have so many.
The Rohirrim was spectacular, but I'd say Sam's carrying Frodo and the whole scene with the destructrion of the ring.

I didn't really get to enjoy the beauty of Pippin's song, because a lot of a group next to me were laughing hysterically :rolleyes:
Aww, too bad. :( You should see it again, he had a beautiful voice! :)

There were people clapping all the time on the cinema, and though it may have been out of respect in the beginnning it became a bit annoying.

Didn't really like Mount Doom and the Eagles seemed a little too powerful (and I bet the non-bookies were asking where those eagles where under the siege of Minas Tirith...or perhaps not), but it worked very well.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
hey, lets have a vote for best part in rotk.
i vote pippins song.

I vote for Theoden's speech and then the charge of the Rohirrim...

[Rían]

It looks like we're all pretty much in agreement here - I esp. agree with Elvengirl's and Falagar's reviews, except I didn't like Eowyn/Witchking as much as Elvengirl did. I'm just PROFOUNDLY grateful they didn't totally screw it up - it could have been a total PC-ish woman's lib commercial, but it was pretty good. I wish she would have had said more of her lines during that scene, tho.

Falagar - "Sauron the lighthousekeeper"! ROTFL!! And did you catch how when the tower was collapsing, the "eye" kept looking all around in horror, like it was trying to find a nice soft place to land? :rolleyes: That made me cringe!

And I wish the Gollum/Frodo fight had Gollum's feet on the ground more - OK, we grasp the fact that Frodo is invisible, already - we don't need to have Gollum riding Frodo like a bronc rider, it got to be rather silly looking - put his feet on the ground, too!

Also I didn't like the country bumpkin depiction of Smeagol and Deagol at the beginning - they could have done it a lot better, IMO. And LOSE the stupid Twilight Zone music - ooooooEEEEEEEEEooooooo :rolleyes:

But ... the charge of the Rohirrim was AWESOME! and Pippin's song was incredibly beautiful, and I like how PJ interweaved the pictures during the song, and actually restrained himself from showing any gore - it was MUCH more effective that way, IMO, showing the arrows flying thru the air, but cutting away before they hit anyone. And so many great lines straight from the book, tho often given to different speakers. And Sam carrying Frodo. The 3 1/2 hrs went by really fast - overall, very good, much better than TTT, IMO, and well worth going to again. And I plan to buy the extended edition, and hope for more good scenes there. IMO, both extended versions have been great improvements.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Surprisingly, for me, the most moving/favorite part is probably a PJ and/or P. Boyens, F. Walsh one not precisely in the book, Faramir leading the Gondor horse soldiers in the suicide attack on Osgiliath. It had an almost surreal feel, women tossing and handing flowers, people sadly watching, etc. And the combination of music (a dirge?), charge, and orc reaction was brilliant, only marred (slightly) by the overly played Denethor meal (still not sure whether I agreed with the tomato/blood symbolism, but the entire sequence, including Denethor, was a strong directorial/cinematic scene). And, as someone noted, adding to the effect by not showing the actual carnage. (Somewhat surprising, for PJ, but he deserves kudos for restraint, though I suspect Fran Walsh or P. Boyens was a strong factor).

[Agalayth]

I was completely blown away. I thought the whole relationship between Denethor and Faramir was wonderfully shown in the movie. I don't think that aspect could have been better.

[hectorberlioz]

And I wish the Gollum/Frodo fight had Gollum's feet on the ground more - OK, we grasp the fact that Frodo is invisible, already - we don't need to have Gollum riding Frodo like a bronc rider, it got to be rather silly looking - put his feet on the ground, too!
Rian m'dear, i share your sentiments here.
btw, i call that part the "ride 'im buckoe" part :p

Also I didn't like the country bumpkin depiction of Smeagol and Deagol at the beginning - they could have done it a lot better, IMO. And LOSE the stupid Twilight Zone music - ooooooEEEEEEEEEooooooo
yes, those two would be dumb and dumber, or harry and lloyd.

[Khamûl]

Well, I just got back from dragging my mom to see it, and surprisingly, the verdict is that she liked it. A lot. She didn't like FotR and hated TTT, but loved this one. I think her favorite part was the Paths of the Dead. It was my second viewing and it was just as good.

[Artanis]

I saw it on Wednesday evening and was completely overwhelmed, now I've calmed down and feel ready to give my two cents ... and be a bit more critical ...

First, the Sméagol & Déagol scene, I agree with RÃ*an, why make them seem so simple and stupid. But I liked the transformation from Sméagol into Gollum.

Theoden: He was awesome almost all the way, but why make him reluctant to come to Gondor's aid? The man was not stupid. He knew very well that Rohan would be next if Minas Tirith should fall.

I think the palantir scene was well done. I didn't mind the visual effects, the main thing from that scene was the terrible impact it had on Pippin, his fear and anguish.

Arwen: I liked her better in this movie than before. But I don't grasp the logic behind the idea that her fate should be linked to the fate of the Ring.

Elrond: I'm sorry to say so, but I still feel he's portrayed as a jerk. He reforges the sword, but I'm left with the impression that he does so only to save his daughter, and not for the case of Middle Earth. Gah.

Denethor was pictured as a madman, without any explanation of how he had become like that. Again I suppose it would work for the audience who is not familiar with the book, but for me it was just sad. And as for Gandalf beating him up, well, I think all that can be said about it is already said. It is too ugly.

Faramir was great in this movie. His hopeless and mad attempt to regain Osgiliath on his father's behalf and command was heartbreaking. You could see it on people's faces when the soldiers rode throught the streets of the city, everyone knew that they would not come back alive. The flowers ... it was in a strange way beauty among the despair. Pip's song was also a heartbreaker. I was surprised of Billy Boyd's beautiful voice.

I liked the pyre scene. Especially the expression on Faramir's face when he had been saved from the fire and Denethor called to him. I loved that.

Sam leaving Frodo: I suppose it works for those who has not read the book. But everyone who have would know that Sam would never have left Frodo. Never.

Battle scenes from Pelennor: Absolutely loved them. After reading all the spoilers, I'd expected the battle scenes to last longer than they actually did. When the army of the dead poured into Minas Tirith, I thought hey, is it already finished? :D Grond was awesome, so was the oliphaunt's attack. And the charge of the Rohirrim of course, which IMO was the best part of the whole movie, closely followed by Theoden's speech right before the attack. And Eomer, he looked exactly as fierce and fearless in the battle as he should be. There are of course some missing scenes there that I wish would be included, but it is a minor complaint, when that what is included was so well done.

The scenery was of course fantastic, as in FotR and TTT. The first sight of Minas Tirith was beautiful, and everything we saw of it from the inside, with all its details, was wonderful too. And also Minas Morgul was very well made.

I don't have time to write more at the moment, except to say there were so many goodies in this movie: Shelob, Sam and Frodo at Mount Doom, the eagles, the Paths of the Dead, Anduril for Aragorn, Eowyn vs. WK, Merry, Aragorn at the Black gate, Grey Havens, coronation, the praise of the Hobbits. And I'm sure there are more which I don't remember at the moment. More later perhaps.

[Artanis]

Another thing, the omission of Saruman's death, the scouring and the Faramir & Eowyn romance didn't bug me at the moment as much as I expected. But it was a weakness not to explain how Eowyn could go from being all teared apart and desperate after being rejected by Aragorn, to being seemingly happy and joyful at his coronation and his wedding with Arwen. I also felt that the fate of Eomer and the kingdom of Rohan should have been declared, it would have been so nice to see Eomer as king of Rohan and see a new and strong union between Gondor and Rohan established.

And what about Legolas and Gimli? What happened to them? I would appreciate to know, if only through a spoken sentence. I suppose we're left to think they just returned to their homes. A little lame, imo.

[Elvengirl]

My thoughts exactly. I think all those loose ends will be tied up in the Extended, but I don't see why there couldn't be even a small clip explaining what happened to them, especially Legolas and Gimli since they were a part of the fellowship.

[Dúnedain]

It's funny, something Artanis made me think of. She mentioned how Denethor when on the pyre and Faramir pulled off it. Denethor looks at Faramir and calls his name, kinda like saying "I'm sorry, I do love you". Now thinking back on that scene, it is a parallel to Boromir as well, such as when Boromir snapped out of it after trying to take the ring from Frodo.

It's as if they both at those dreaded times, realized their wrongs and broke through the evil that, for a time, corrupted their judgements. I think that is a wonderful parallel. The fact that Gandalf tells Faramir that his father loves him and he will realize it when it is too late. Denethor does, and that look to Faramir shows it. Same thing with Boromir, he feels the mistake he made through the temptation for the ring, thus trying to make it up to Frodo, even though it is too late.

I do have to say, PJ has shown many little subtley's that we sometimes overlook, unless you watch things a couple times, think about the movies a lot or catch them when they happen. Still though, my favorite little thing he added was the exchange with Elrond and Aragorn at the Dunharrow encampment, when they exchange the last words Aragorn's mother spoke to him...

[hectorberlioz]

if the extended edition scenes are good, i'll be happier. and will be easier on accepting the changes.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Artanis
Arwen: I liked her better in this movie than before. But I don't grasp the logic behind the idea that her fate should be linked to the fate of the Ring. The way someone explained it to me made sense, but I still have my problems. They said that it's not a direct relation. If the Ring isn't destroyed, Sauron will win the war. If he wins, then more likely than not he'll have to kill Aragorn to do it. If Aragorn dies, Arwen will die of a broken heart. That makes perfect sense, but if it's what the filmmakers were trying to get across, they should have made it clearer. It does seem that Arwen is dying because the Ring hasn't been destroyed.

Musings upon a third viewing: I stand by my "Wow". One question though: when Gandalf and Pippin first ride into Minas Tirith, there is a shot of these white banners hanging. On the banners is the White Tree and the Seven Stars. However, there is also a crown. The same design is used at Aragorn's coronation. Why would they have the symbol of the King on a banner in Minas Tirith if he hasn't returned and declared himself yet?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Still though, my favorite little thing he added was the exchange with Elrond and Aragorn at the Dunharrow encampment, when they exchange the last words Aragorn's mother spoke to him... Yes, I agree, it was a touching moment. It is a special goody for the part of the audience who has read the book. I wonder what the other part of the audience think of Aragorn's words? If they think anything at all. :p

Did someone mention the small things which were repeated from previous movies, but in another context? Example: The words Sam spoke to Frodo on the edge of the fires of Mount Doom was the very words that Elrond spoke to Isildur on the same spot. And the kiss Sam recieved from Frodo at the Grey Havens resembles the kiss Galadriel gave to Frodo in Lórien. Another shot of Eowyn standing in front of Meduseld, but this time she's waiting for Aragorn to return from isengard.

Khamûl: Three times already? Wow.

[azalea]

I'm still sick, but slowly recuperating.

I had a couple of things to add to what I said, and will probably have more to add later.

I agree with MM's review when he states how the major flaw is the lack of continuity. It was choppy, and elements are brought in and others left out that have no context, or were left unresolved (a lot of which have already been mentioned). I think that this will be fixed in the EE for the most part, but it would have been better to just leave out certain things and leave others in. It's almost as if they had gotten so close to and enmeshed in the work that they forgot or didn't recognize that certain things didn't fit or were left hanging, and needed an outside party to "proofread and revise" or something.

See, this is an example of the problem I had: TTT went to great lengths to establish Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn, but then in RotK, we get a brief blurb from Aragron ("you don't really love me") and it's as if she says "oh, okay." Then nothing more is said about the matter, and we get no resolution by having the Faramir aspect come in. So my question is, why include the whole Eowyn likes Aragorn thing so heavily in the TT TE if you know you won't have time to give it as much attention in the RotK TE? I know the answer is probably that they didn't know when finishing TTT that they weren't going to have time, but really, I think they could have figured it out. I think this was one of the major directorial flaws, that the attempt to provide continuity seemed slipshod, that there didn't seem to be a clear vision of the future releases before the first ones were made, and as a result they kept having to change things. Thus the final product was made to feel disjointed, although still incredible and enjoyable. But it just seems they could have decided what to include in the RotK TE based on what they'd focused on in the TT TE. Heck, I could almost see the Paths of the Dead being left out in favor of some of that type of thing, because the audience had no previous "contact" with that, and then it could have been added to the EE.

I think the following things will be included in the EE (I know I'll forget some I've thought of):
Houses of the Healing/ Eowyn and Faramir
Ghan buri Ghan
the "little orcs" getting caught up in the marching armies
Sam's song (please please:( )
the Mouth of Sauron
probably more tacked on to the end, resolving some unanswered questions (what happened to Legolas and Gimli?)
and of course, the Saruman/ Wormtongue scenes

I think the inclusion of these and other scenes will aid a lot in providing relief from that choppy, disjointed feel, and will also remedy the "time" problems MM mentioned in his review.

Again, I hate to be so critical of a movie I loved, but I just felt I needed to get it off my chest, and hey, what better place than here?;)

[LutraMage]

Right, just saw it today and am absolutely delighted - a fantastic cinematic event which easily surpasses my previous all time favourite film going experience (the original showing of Star Wars - yes I am that old!) :p

Let's get the gripes out of the way. :mad: But before I do, let me remind myself that THIS IS NOT THE BOOK. Of course it jars when a scene is not as we remember it from the book, but overall the changes were more than exceptable. Three things did, however, greatly disappoint me.

The most significant was the treatment of Denethor. Gone all his nobility, the devastation of his hopes (both public - the belief that Gondor would fall - and personal - the death of Boromir) and the way in which he was duped by Sauron with the Palantir were entirely missing and this character was stripped of everything that made his final descent into madness understandable. Instead, what we got was a foolish, borish, madman who could never have led a city of the size of Gondor for more than a week. Very poor.

The other two points I didn't like: firstly, the split between Frodo and Sam - this ran far too far against the whole point of their unbreakable friendship and love as depicted in the book; and secondly, Smeagol's tale - the special effects in the water were very poor and I really didn't belive that Smeagol was actually strangling Deagol, I think the whole scene could have been left out to make room for Saruman or the Eowyn/Faramir love story.

And now for the good points :D MOST OF THE REST OF THE FILM! As has already been said, the charge of the Rohirrim must rank amongst the greatest movie battle scenes I have ever seen. The city of Minas Tirith couldn't have been closer to how I had imagined it and couldn't have seemed more real! The death of the Lord of the Nazgul was perfect. Pippin, Merry, Eowyn, Sam, Frodo - great acting, great story adaptation!

There was so much that was excellent in this film. Not many people have mentioned the Gollum CGI in this film - we've already become used to the fact that it is done so well that we overlook the brilliance of the movie work here. Yes sure, some of the other animation (notably some of the mumak work, Legolas as Tarzan, and some of the flying scenes) were not of such believable high standards, but in general it was awsome. The flying rocks, the severed heads, some of the stamping and tusk swinging mumak scenes, the Oathbreakers, the lava flows and eruption of Mount Doom were just amazing.

Marks out of 10 - why, 10 of course! The strengths of this film simply overshadowed and brushed aside the few weaknesses. Can't wait for the EE. :D :cool: :D

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by azalea
See, this is an example of the problem I had: TTT went to great lengths to establish Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn, but then in RotK, we get a brief blurb from Aragron ("you don't really love me") and it's as if she says "oh, okay." Then nothing more is said about the matter, and we get no resolution by having the Faramir aspect come in. So my question is, why include the whole Eowyn likes Aragorn thing so heavily in the TT TE if you know you won't have time to give it as much attention in the RotK TE? I know the answer is probably that they didn't know when finishing TTT that they weren't going to have time, but really, I think they could have figured it out. I think this was one of the major directorial flaws, that the attempt to provide continuity seemed slipshod, that there didn't seem to be a clear vision of the future releases before the first ones were made, and as a result they kept having to change things. Thus the final product was made to feel disjointed, although still incredible and enjoyable. But it just seems they could have decided what to include in the RotK TE based on what they'd focused on in the TT TE. Heck, I could almost see the Paths of the Dead being left out in favor of some of that type of thing, because the audience had no previous "contact" with that, and then it could have been added to the EE.

How can you say you'd rather have Paths of the Dead left out for Eowyn's love story? Her love story is basically meaningless in the whole realm of things, whereas the Paths of the Dead is one of the biggest moments in the story in turning the tide for the side of good...:confused:

[Dreran the Green]

ok, I saw it Friday night, and I was really scared that it would get chopped up and mutilated by PJ and others, but I am in love with it.:D It had a some things left out that I'd been looking forward to (the mouth of Sauron in particular) , and the army of oathbreakers reminded me of Ghostbusters just a little....but I thought it was fantastic!! The ending really got me crying, and I don't get moved to tears easy. Especially loved the parts where Sam carries Frodo up Mt. Doom, and when Gandalf comes and saves them with the eagles. Ian McKellen was great through the whole movie, and I can't wait for the extended DVD!

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Artanis
Khamûl: Three times already? Wow. Yeah. Kinda sad, isn't it? :p Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. Now I have no money left.

One of my good friends really really liked this movie. He said that he didn't cry until Aragorn's line "My friends, you bow to no one." Two thumbs up from Jim. :D

Return of the King: Grown men have been known to weep at its magnificence.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by azalea
I agree with MM's review when he states how the major flaw is the lack of continuity. It was choppy, and elements are brought in and others left out that have no context, or were left unresolved (a lot of which have already been mentioned).
I'll third that. Really dire editing spoiled it for me. There's no way this film can win an oscar (unless there's one for Best Mumakil-Slaying).

The actors had no chance to show what they could do. Apart from Frodo/Sam, it was just a succession of one-liners. No wonder Christopher Lee didn't turn up for the premiere.

They should've changed it more, IMO, so as to have a proper film.

And every time I saw Minas Tirith from a distance, I had that bloke from Monty Python and the Holy Grail inside my head going "it's just a model".

Disappointed :(

[Elvengirl]

I'm sorry you didn't like it Gaffer. :(

I didn't feel that the movie was choppy at all, maybe it was a bit rushed, but other than that the editing was great. Yes, there were some flaws and I think the altering of some scenes were the major mistakes. Plus any scene that needs to be included will be in the Extended.

[The Gaffer]

That's OK. Thanks for the sympathy. I did enjoy seeing it, of course, and would still have wanted to go if I'd known how I was going to feel afterwards.

There were lots of moments I enjoyed, especially Gimli's "that only counts as one" line. I'm looking forward to the EE on DVD.

I'm wondering if this trilogy stands as a case in point in how it is very tricky to make two different versions of a film at the same time (EE and theatrical) (or how our editing skills aren't up to scratch to make it feel seamless).

[Nerdanel]

I think the movie was great. I think it's the first time ever I've cried watching a movie..:o (a bit embarassed...)

For a movie, it was great, but it's nothing in comparison to the books. This should maybe be in another forum... But if you don't compare it with the books, it was amazing. But on the other hand, to entirely understand the movie, you have to have read the books. This is getting a bit.. strange... I think I'll have to stop now.

But in the end, Jackson was successful. A shame that the trilogy is over.. Guess I'll have to watch it all over again.:D

[Ruinel]

Saw the movie last night.

:rolleyes: What can I say that hasn't already been said. Words can not express my disappointment. :(

Comment on handling Gandalf's character...
Why did PJ have to make Gandalf a mindless brute by having him beat Denethor with his staff? That was SOOOO out of character!
Comment on Denethor's character...
And I think leaving Denethor's Palantir out of the movie cheapened Denethor's character. We never got to see why he turned out to be the way he is... why he was so focused on Boromir's death, turned away from Faramir and why he rejected Gandalf's wise advice. We are lead to believe that Denethor was always unjust and blind, that he was never a good ruler to begin with.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I'll third that. Really dire editing spoiled it for me. There's no way this film can win an oscar (unless there's one for Best Mumakil-Slaying).


I disagree on the Oscar comment. Have you seen some of the films that won Oscars (Titanic, for example? I loved that movie when it came out, but I was a stupid twelve year old that had a thing for Leo DiCaprio).

I personally loved the movie, except for Arwen's fate being tied to the Ring. Although, I could almost forgive this when comparing it to Sam leaving Frodo. I was INFURIATED, and still am. Though I've managed to separate the movies from the books quite well (it helps that I saw FOTR before I had read the Trilogy, I think, though the books are first in my heart), I do not think that even movie!Sam would have left Frodo like that. It did have me tearing, because of Sean's acting and out of my massive frustration.

Yes, there were editing problems, mistakes, and some not so good moments, acting and otherwise. However, the exact same things happen in other movies, we just don't nitpick them nearly as much, because we dont' watch them as closely or with as much passion. If you've ever visited www.moviemistakes.com, you can see that the movies with the "most mistakes" are also among the most famous/highest grossing movies.

[Elvedans]

You're all being too pickyand precious about it all. Just be greatful you got a decent director like Jackson and not some stupid over the top american like spielberg making a dog's dinner of the whole thing. Personally i found the whole experience breathtaking, cried the whole time and came out of it speechless and limp after such an emotional rollercoaster. True, there were a few differences with the book, a few things that are a little improbable and a few inconsistancies, but when you look at all thethings that could have gone wrong and didn't, and look at the whole picture, you realise what an amazing feat it really is. Put it this way - you think you can do better? Well have a go and try being this successful! Darn whingers!

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I vote for Theoden's speech and then the charge of the Rohirrim...


Yes, Yes , YES! I can still feel the chills running down my spine! My friend told me i was jumping up and down in my chair, eyes bulging, tears streaning, hands waving imaginary spears and breathing hard throughout the whole battle and massive charge and cool speech. Aragorn's speech at the Morannon came pretty close too.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elvedans
Just be greatful you got a decent director like Jackson and not some stupid over the top american like spielberg making a dog's dinner of the whole thing.

I see you are an ignorant one :rolleyes:

[Elvedans]

Meaning?

[Dúnedain]

Meaning 2 things. Your snear remark towards americans and the fact that America has produced some of the best directors ever...

[Elvedans]

Apologies to Americans. It was meant for the like of Spielberg in particular.

[Blue Scout]

[edited]... in terms of filmmakers...

sorry, it's an established fact

[Rest of post edited -- not only is this flaming, the entire post was completely off topic -- Azalea]

[Artanis]

Please. :rolleyes: This thread is about RotK.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Saw the movie last night.

:rolleyes: What can I say that hasn't already been said. Words can not express my disappointment. :(

Comment on handling Gandalf's character...
Why did PJ have to make Gandalf a mindless brute by having him beat Denethor with his staff? That was SOOOO out of character!
Comment on Denethor's character...
And I think leaving Denethor's Palantir out of the movie cheapened Denethor's character. We never got to see why he turned out to be the way he is... why he was so focused on Boromir's death, turned away from Faramir and why he rejected Gandalf's wise advice. We are lead to believe that Denethor was always unjust and blind, that he was never a good ruler to begin with.


they hint towards the palantir when Denether says he has seen more then Gandalf has so i think it will be in the EE. PJ said tehy cut out scenes to keep the flow going but they didnt really. I mena, how are we to know (if we hadnt read the books) how sarumans palantir was outside and submerged, that part pissed me off. other then those things and the gollum poisoning frodo against sam and all those long glances at the end it was a good movie.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Blue Scout
[edited] particularly in terms of filmmakers...

sorry, it's an established fact

that sounds like an opinion to me.

[Edited due to the original post being edited]

---

Back to the movie. I agree, I wish we had seen more about the palantir and Denethor. Though I admit, I did chuckle a bit at Gandalf's beating, out of character as it was. I've never been a big fan of Denethor.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Elvedans
You're all being too pickyand precious about it all. Just be greatful you got a decent director like Jackson and not some stupid over the top american like spielberg making a dog's dinner of the whole thing. Spot on Elvedans - somebody was going to make this film sometime, and nobody was ever going to be able to make it perfect for all people, in every scene without having a thirty hour film, so let's just be grateful it was somebody who clearly cared about what he was doing to the book.;)

[Rían]

yes, it was choppy editing, but I don't know ... somehow I didn't have a problem with it, because my brain just filled in the missing parts (and ignores the parts that they got wrong)

I wonder how people felt about the movie that HAVEN'T read the books?

I'd like to see it again, and I'll definitely buy the extended version when it comes out. Overall, I'm glad that they were made, and continue to appreciate the detail that went into the background stuff. I was just watching the commentary on TT EE the other day, and heard how they hired some champion axe guys (don't know what they're called) for the scene near the beginning when Merry and Pip are being carted off by the orcs, and the orcs are chopping trees in Fangorn - all for about 30 seconds, if that much, of screen time.

[Christiana]

OMG!!!!!!! I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yes, some of the scenes got a bit cheesy, and it was way too short, but i have to say that I have never cried so much in a movie in my life. (actually, I have only cried in six movies in my entire life.)

I have to say though, what was almost as good as the movie were the movies goers around me:D it was hilarious listening to them, though i admit that when the people around me screamed "HOLY #@)()&" at the top of their vocies, it startled me more than any scence in the movie. Also, the sighs when Legolas appeared on screen were pretty anoying.

[Entlover]

I also loved it.
And the audience seemed to agree, as they applauded at the end: I don't suppose that happens often in Seattle.

Does anyone know where Aragorn's speech at the Morannon comes from? I should know but can't find it.

I loved that part, plus the Rohirrim charge of course.

My only objection was that Sam's leaving Frodo was out of character. I expected him to sit down and wait awhile and then follow him, knowing Gollum was up to something. Not to start climbing down until he found the lembas. But maybe he was braindead after the journey across the plain.
The ending was great -- long though it seemed, it was all necessary. I had hoped to share Frodo's sight of the Undying Lands rising out of the mists.
This is an achievement that will be unsurpassed for a long time.

[Entlover]

[i]hey, lets have a vote for best part in rotk.
i vote pippins song. [/B]

I will vote for the moment when Sam picks up Frodo to carry him. I got goosebumps from that.

One more nit: where Faramir leads his men to try to recapture Osgiliath, it was too black and white: obviously a suicide move. Faramir would have had to be a total self-centered weeb to lead his men to certain death just to regain his father's respect. He was too responsible a captain for that.

I'm happy that Aragorn finally got to wash his hair.

Must see it again several times.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Elvedans Just be greatful you got a decent director like Jackson and not some stupid over the top american like spielberg making a dog's dinner of the whole thing.
ok, are you one who hates spielberg just because he's so sucessfull?
most of his movies are big favorites of mine.
schindler's list
saving private ryan
E.T.
catch me if you can

just because he's sucessfull doesnt mean he's a bad director.
spielberg is a much better director than peter jackson.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I've never been a big fan of Denethor.

Yeah same here. I've always disliked Denethor anyway, so seeing him get hit was fine by me, even though it diminished Gandalf a bit. The lack of palatir for Denethor didn't bother me much either, cuz I've read the books and know why he was a psycho :p On the contrary side the palantir would help the movie-goer understand why he is such a morbid loon.

I contend the fact that he was "noble". I never felt he was in reading the books many times over, I always thought he was an idiot to be quite honest, lol. Just my opinion though :D

[hectorberlioz]

its strange that the actor's(the actor who plays denethor) name is john noble. just kinda weird...

[Earniel]

After about two weeks of avoiding the movie forum (and the spoilers), I can finally return. :) I saw RoTK yesterdaynight and turned out a better movie than I had feared. It didn't not offer the disappointment TTT had. They stayed closer to the book this time. Of course, I'll require more viewings, since there was so much to see in the movie! So my opinions on scenes may change yet.

What I missed
It's is obvious that not everything from the book could be filmed and the omissions such as the Grey company and the Woses were not really missed and understandable cut. I knew already a long time the Scouring was going to be cut so I was okay with that. Though it is an indispensable part in the book, I think the film worked without it. With saying in the FoTR that the Shire would only be burned if they failed, they nicely avoided having to stage a fight in the Shire in the end. In any case, it would have been too long to fit it in the movie as well.

I did miss the Healing Houses scenes, those had been a favorite part of mine in the book and could have provided a bit of a breather between many action-packted scene in the movie. I had loved to see Faramir and Éowyn standing on the walls of Minas Tirith as the Eagle messenger comes to announce the fall of Sauron.

I had loved to see a little more of Éomer as well. His scene with the dying Théoden was given to Éowyn instead and no single reference is made to him being king of Rohan now. I sort of missed that in the movie. Though his taking down the first Múmak was very nice.

What I disliked on a first viewing
I don't think I'll ever particulary like Jackson's way of filming battles. It's all so rushed and blurry. I'd like to see seperate moves, not just a blur of movement. All the massively cool armour, weapon and moves, and you can not really see them.

I found the scene where Gollum is putting those Lembas-crumbles on Sam a bit daft. And those secretive, mean, little smiles he constantly gave Samwise behind Frodo's back. That was over the top. And you just don't tell Sam to go home! Though I rather disliked that scene, it seemed to work in the movie but it'll never by one of my favorites.

The second fight with Gollum on the edge above the fires of Mount Doom seemed rather unnecesary. Personally I also don't think Sam would normally have been able to pull Frodo up by his bloody and slippery hand. And Gollum disappearing in the lava looked more like Gollum disappearing in a mud stream. The lava would have burned him instead of just swallowing him.

Denethor was a disappointment. Denethor was never one of my favorite characters but in the book he still had style and strenght even in his insanity. The palantir that played a significant role in Denethor madness, is omitted entirely in the movie except for one little reference. The movie-Denethor was weak, wussy and got beaten up a bloody lot (and nobody even cared or came to aid him, some loyal subjects those Gondoreans). That's just no way to treat a Stewart. The seemingly only reason for that rocky outcrop running through Minas Tirith is so that Denethor can throw himself of it. It ruined the powerful scene as Denethor lays himself down on the pyre with the palantir clutched in his hands.

I was looking forward to the scene where prince Imrahil carries the wounded Faramir back into Minas Tirith. Instead they subsituted Imrahil with a horse that very conveniently drags Faramir to the gate. Not exactly as good as I expected but do-able I suppose.

[Earniel]

What I liked in the first viewing
The lighting of the beacons was a great scene. Even if Gandalf had had to let Pippin sneak up to light it. But the filming of the succession of Beacons above the clouds was very powerful. I was trying to name them all when they lighted up one by one.

The Oliphaunts were very impressive, so many attention was paid to their battle-gear, even down to the pikes and sharp nasties tied to their tusks. And the way they marched up in one line on the horizon with all the orc-army fleeing between their legs. Great.

The Eagles were very good as well, they really payed attention to the way large birds of prey fight in the air as in the scene with the flying beasts of the Nazgûl. The way the claws locked in combat, the way they -so very careful- picked up Sam and Frodo from the rock in the lava sea. Marvelous. Though a few more Eagles at the battlefield wouldn't have spoilt the movie. ;)

The scene where Arwen sees her future son was very nicely orchestrated. I particularly liked the way that piece of building appeared among the ferns and how the child had eyes just like Arwen.

I also liked Sam's fight with Shelob. I think Sean Astin did a tremendous good job on Sam in RoTK. "And that one is for my old gaffer!" Wow. :D

Those are the scenes I still remember right now.

Last tiny nitpicks
The Dead army played unfair. Walking over water, being unable to be hit while being able to hit other things themselves and pouring upon that last Múmak like an army of rabid mice. :p

Does Arwen's dress really have to go that deep? Surely that's not practical anymore.

They turned Sauron in a giant Super Trooper! :p

Conclusion
I was quite overwhelmed yesterday night after seeing RoTK. I am so glad most of my fears turned out wrong and that RoTK was no disappointment.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
How can you say you'd rather have Paths of the Dead left out for Eowyn's love story? Her love story is basically meaningless in the whole realm of things, whereas the Paths of the Dead is one of the biggest moments in the story in turning the tide for the side of good...:confused:

Hey, you like what you like, and I'll like what I like.;)

Seriously, what I meant was that it would have provided some continuity for that storyline, making the films a little more seamless. The Paths of the Dead could have been cut way back to make room for it. Plus, it would have helped Faramir's character arc in a way, too.
Incidentally, I think they picked the wrong person to arc -- they should have had Denethor "arc" instead of Faramir.

Don't get me wrong, I still loved the movie, I just disagree with some of the choices made in terms of editing and choice of focus (judicious use of screen time as well as what things they'd already chosen to focus on). I think it was like someone said above, the apparent pitfall in making a movie trilogy all at one time and a second extended trilogy at the same time as well.

The Arwen thing -- yeah, that's what I got, Khamul, but like you said, it should have been stated differently. I think a better thing would have been to say something about her fate being tied to Aragorn becoming King. It would have been accurate and made more sense.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by Eärniel
What I liked in the first viewing

They turned Sauron in a giant Super Trooper! :p



Every time I see a light house now, I have this unexplainable urge to duck. :D

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Arwen, Arwen, Arwen. The handling of Arwen is the trilogy’s biggest character blunder. I am quite confused over what PJ was getting at with this character. At one point she tells Aragorn that she “chooses a mortal life� that is at least in keeping with Tolkien. But when Elrond is talking about the death of Aragorn it is made to seem as though Arwen is still going to be immortal or at least live very long, dwelling on and on after his death. In fact it's odd that Elrond focuses on her surviving Aragorn as "the bitter taste of mortality" than the fact she is now going to die herself forever seperate from her people(if we're still with Tolkien that is). Then in the third film there is the “she is dying� thing.

I thought that when Elrond felt her hand when she returned from the Havens that they were trying to show that she had indeed become mortal (made her choice so to speak) that fits with “I chooses a mortal life� but not “you will linger" but then the dying thing comes in, in relation to the ring. I don’t think it makes sense either way.

By the way, the paragraph in the appendix where Arwen returns to a now abandoned Lothlorien and lays down beneath the mallorn trees to die is, one of my favorite Tolkien moments. The full implication of what she chose could not have been ended more beautifully. Dying alone in the place her people once dwelt, but have now abandoned forever, it is perfect.



"Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent. There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth�

[gollum9630]

i know this isnt part of ROTK, but with everyone saying the woses werent in the movies i was just wondering, werent they the wild men that were attacking Rohan in TTT. Just wondering if anyone knows for sure.

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
ok, are you one who hates spielberg just because he's so sucessfull?
most of his movies are big favorites of mine.
schindler's list
saving private ryan
E.T.
catch me if you can

just because he's sucessfull doesnt mean he's a bad director.
spielberg is a much better director than peter jackson.

As it is off topic i will answer with one word only : NO. If you would like a fuller answer then i will gladly PM you. :)

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[

I wonder how people felt about the movie that HAVEN'T read the books?

]

I know three people who've seen it without reading the books.

Person one was disappointed after enjoying TTT but not FOTR or ROTK. She thought it was too long and didn't understand it properly.

Person two thought it was very good and enjoyed many specific moments, but thought it a little long. She loved it but didn't understand the Grey Havens.

Person three absolutely loved the whole trilogy and adored the battle scenes and the detail that went into it all.

Mixed opinions but hey, some people loved it and understood it without the book so it can't have been a bad job!

[Fimbrethil]

Personnally I really did like the movie. Except for the fact that in the TT if PJ hadn't made the stupid fight scene so long he could have put Shelob or at least about 30 min. more stuff that he left out. Then perhaps he couldv'e done Floatsam and Jetsam or The Scouring of the Shire or he could at least have had Sauromon killed. What was with the light house thing? My froend and I were both a little confused and then we laughed at it. Also he could have put more about Eowyn and Arwen in the movie. The speeches were awsome! I loved those. But at the end Celeborn went on the pretty boat with Galadriel wasn't he supposed to stay? And did they ever say the name of Sam's boy? Becasue it was supposed to be Frodo, right? The tear jerking scenes more or less redemed PJ though. But I still don't like what he did with Arwen.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Arathorn
Every time I see a light house now, I have this unexplainable urge to duck. :D

You live in Mordor then? :eek: ;)

[Christiana]

Its pathetic. Im completely obsessed. Just last night, Someone asked for "crispy chicken for dinner" I imediately remembered the line in FOTR "nice crispy bacon" and the havoc that ensured.


I know some people who haven't read the books but have seen the movies. They generally get everything wrong:rolleyes: someone thought that Denethor was a king, Merry and Pippin were brothers, and that they were drug addicts as well. Also that tolkien was the movies' DIRECTOR.

[Nerdanel]

Isn't it nice when people know nothing?:rolleyes:
I saw RotK with my DAD ( :cool: ) and I'm sure he didn't understand much. I'm sure those who haven't read the books think that Denethor was a king. I would.

The lighthouse-thing was kinda.. erm... interesting.

Well, I thought it was OK. But I rather read the books again than see the films.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Wow.

No, that's not it.:D I loved the movie!!!! It had a bunch of not-so-great deviations from the books, so I'll start with what bugged me, and then get to the good stuff.

First, the only good thing about the prologe was that we got to see Andy Serkis actually playing Smeagol. The rest of it was dumb.
I didn't like that Saruman doesn't even seem to have a fitting ending for all the trouble he caused in the first two films.
I also did not like how they messed around with the Shelob bit. Excluding the fact that I hated to see Frodo reject Sam for Gollum, and the fact that the whole deal made Frodo seem like a pathetic nit-wit, the encounters with Shelob did not live up even to the moments proceding it. To have Frodo walk through a seemingly endless maze of web, constantly shouting pathetically for Smeagol to come and save him were not justified by a huge but terribly weak spider. Sam comes along, gives her a few scratches and she leaves. HE GETS TO KICK HER BUTT IN THE BOOK! That was probably the biggest let-down in the entire movie for me.
I missed the Houses of Healing, too. Also, it bugged me that Eowyn's womanhood was known prior to her 'unveiling' at Pellenor.
It also bothered me that Merry was not allowed to have his last conversation with Theoden, as well as the fact that Pippin never got to kill a troll. I didn't like Denethor going off the pinnacle of Minas Tirith. Totally lame. Why do people have to fall to their deaths in epic movies? Gollum's last fight with Frodo is less than what I expected. His second-to-last fight with him was pathetic on Frodo's part. I also missed Frodo giving Bag End to Sam, and Gimli's 'words' with Eomer about the Evenstar and the Morning star.
And speaking of Evenstars.. what was with Arwen's fate is now tied to the Ring?? WHAT?! The whole thing with Arwen was okay up until that point. It's not logical! How did Arwen suddenly get attached to the Ring? Duh...
P.S. No Dunadain. Bummer.

And now for the stuff I liked:
THE REST OF THE MOVIE!! Seriously, I absolutely loved everything else. Specific moments include Gandalf describing death to Pippin, and Pip saying "That's not so bad.", the lighting of the beacons- oh man, THAT was GLORIOUS. It was the only part I actually shed an unbidden tear over. Pippin offering his service to Denethor. Eomer telling Eowyn to stop 'encouraging' Merry. Theoden shouting "Ride now for the world's ending!" and everyone shouting "DEATH!". Minas Tirith was beautiful!!! I loved it when they had Frodo walking while lifting his hand above him as if to ward off a blow. Right out of the book and I loved it. When Sam 'sticks' that dirty yrch. Gimli's "What are we waiting for?" Pippin saying "We've got the White Wizard. That's got to count for something." Also, I loved that almost everyone in Minas Tirith knew who Mithrandir was. Their interaction with Gandalf was great. The end was absolutely AWESOME!! When the eagles come- oh, great (That they actually gave the "The eagles are coming!" line to its rightful owner made me very happy. The 'end of all things' was really beautiful. And when Frodo wakes in Minas Tirith and the only thing that he and Gandalf do is laugh is soooo cool! And when everybody comes in... I tell you, the audience that I saw it with was VERY uncharactaristically vocal. From the very first 'Wingnut Productions' (whereat someone a few rows behind me shouted "WINGNUT!"), there was cheering going on at every good moment. At that part when the Fellowship starts coming through the door of Frodo's room we all started clapping for each member. The only one that didn't get a whole lot was.. Legolas. A couple of girls in front of me let out these funny giggles and I was sitting there smirking over them. :rolleyes: The look on Sam's face when he walks through that door is absolutely... I can't even find a word. It just sums up everything in one smile. As does Frodo's at the Grey Havens. His huge smile right before stepping aboard the boat is beautiful!! I love those two moments. Very touching.
On the whole, here are my compliments to the movie-makers:

PJ: Beautiful!! There were a few things that could have been kept true to the book, but really you did a wonderful job.
Writers: I would take my hood off to you in proper dwarf fashion if I had a proper dwarf hood. Again, there were a few unappreciated changes, but it was really beautiful what you did.
Effects people (from the Bigatures to the digital stuff to the sound-mixes): WONDERFUL!! Middle Earth exists more fully because of you guys!
Howard Shore and all the other music artists: Beautiful!!! (A truly heartfelt adjective and certainly none the worse for having been used before)
And to the actors: You people shine out like Silmarils in deepest night!! YOU PEOPLE ROCK!
And my own special 'award' for Best Actor goes to.. Sean Astin!!!!! There was nobody else in the whole wide world who could have brought Sam to life. You ARE Samwise Gamgee!!

[hectorberlioz]

*feigns brit accent*
Elvandans m'dear, please do pm me....i'm curious.:D
sorry for the uneccesarry off topic-ness.
Rosie, clean your pm box m'dear

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
I'm sure those who haven't read the books think that Denethor was a king. I would.

How, Gandalf even says Denethor is not a king, that he is the steward. People who think he is a king are idiots who dont listen to details.

[Goldberry1]

Well, I saw it a few days ago... I haven't had time to organize my thoughts. I think this is the second-best of the three (after 'Fellowship'), but that's just my opinion.

Miranda Otto and Sean Astin gave the best performances, I think.

The scenery and costumes and sets and everything were great as usual, Minas Tirith was awesome.

I don't have time to get into detail right now - and I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already in this thread - but just as a normal movie-goer, there was absolutely no conclusion to what happened to Theoden. that's been bugging me the last few days...

[Christiana]

I haven't seen it for several days. I'm going into serious withdrawal. I'm actually shaking.:eek: :D

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by gollum9630
How, Gandalf even says Denethor is not a king, that he is the steward. People who think he is a king are idiots who dont listen to details.

Well, I guess I would have been an idiot if i hadn't read the books..:p

I'm going to see it again tomorrow. Feels great!!:D

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
. But at the end Celeborn went on the pretty boat with Galadriel wasn't he supposed to stay?

Oops! I thought that was Cirdan!

[Dúnedain]

I saw it again tonight. The second viewing was just as good, except I knew what was coming up. The movie was still great though. I got to pay more attention to the detail. There are a lot of little things in this movie. They really paid attention to detail well.

Someone mentioned "how did Frodo get his shirt back after his clothes were taken?"

It's a simple answer, if you notice they were going through his clothes in the same tower he was prisoner in, actually just feet away from him. Then the fight ensued over his mithril mail. It's obvious enough that his shirt was there when Sam set him free...

With this viewing, like I said, I was able to appreciate the little things more than I either missed or glanced over, such as little architectual details and even details in the dialogue.

I am still amazed at how quickly the movie went. It certainly does not feel like it is 3 hours 20 minutes. One of the people I went with tonight looked at her watch and it was 2 1/2 hours into the movie. She was surprised and said it felt like only a few minutes :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by gollum9630
i know this isnt part of ROTK, but with everyone saying the woses werent in the movies i was just wondering, werent they the wild men that were attacking Rohan in TTT. Just wondering if anyone knows for sure.

No - those men in TT were 'Dunlendings' - who lived NW of Rohan. There's mention that they had been displaced by the Rohirrim (both in movie and books I think) but that's puzzling now that I recall it - because the Rohirrim basically moved into the void left by a dwindling Gondorian population in that province which they called 'Calenardhon' (EDIT: - oh - now that I think about it... Freca and his group were part Dunlendings... and I think I recall reading somewhere that the Dunlendings had occupied the area around Orthanc... but that may have been after the Rohirrim were around... I'll have to find that and re-check. Might be in UT or PoME)

Even in the book, Saruman had stirred up the Dunlendings to fight with the orcs against Rohan.

The Woses, or 'Druaden' (SP?) lived SE of Rohan - in the forest at the east end of the White Mountains, which was really then between Rohan and Gondor - so they were at the opposite end of Rohan from the Dunlendings.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
No - those men in TT were 'Dunlendings' - who lived NW of Rohan. There's mention that they had been displaced by the Rohirrim (both in movie and books I think) but that's puzzling now that I recall it - because the Rohirrim basically moved into the void left by a dwindling Gondorian population in that province which they called 'Calenardhon' (EDIT: - oh - now that I think about it... Freca and his group were part Dunlendings... and I think I recall reading somewhere that the Dunlendings had occupied the area around Orthanc... but that may have been after the Rohirrim were around... I'll have to find that and re-check. Might be in UT or PoME)

Even in the book, Saruman had stirred up the Dunlendings to fight with the orcs against Rohan.

The Woses, or 'Druaden' (SP?) lived SE of Rohan - in the forest at the east end of the White Mountains, which was really then between Rohan and Gondor - so they were at the opposite end of Rohan from the Dunlendings.

The Dunlendings were from Dunland. Dunland is in the western foothills of the Misty Mountains, to the east of Enedwaith. In relation to Rohan it is Northwest, and North of Isengard...

The Woses are also known as the Pukel men. Remember Ghan-Buri-Ghan? He was one of them. They helped the Rohirrim get to Gondor safely, via the Stonewain Valley pass, which avoided the Open Road and Orc Encampments...

[samwiselvr2008]

It was awsome! I loved almost everything in it! I loved some of the Gimli Lines, like "that only counts as one!" and one of my favorites: "sertanty of death, small chance of succes, what are we waiting for?" I didn't much like the meating of Pippon and Denathor (sp?) and I didn't like it when Gandalf hit Denathor when he was yelling about dieing in the way that fit you best, because I never pictured that as a comic releaf seen in the book, and I don't think that they should have done that in the movie, they should have cept more serias. I wasn't able to cach alot the first time I saw it, but the second and third I saw alot more, dosn't it go really fast? I cried in a couple of places, and of course I hated the sceen with Sam and Rose, I got geliouse! However, the sceen with Sam talking to Frodo about Rose I don't mind as much, I'm always so sad in that sceen, because of everything, even though I know that they really arn't gonna be stuck on Mount Doom, and I know that they will get back to Hobbiton, I still get really sad and all from that sceen! That's all for now!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Okay, firstly, a few things I was a bit surprised and disappointed to not see:

1. Gandalf's Confrontation with the Witch-King.
2. Cirdan.
3. Frodo's moment of towering over Gollum.
4. There's more, but it was several hours ago.

That said, overall, I liked it. I came with less expectation, and I was pleasantly surprised. IMO, it was the best of the three, by itself; it tended not to use cliche so much as the previous two, and the moment with Pippin's song was well done (though of course, minus the butchering of Denethor, and I didn't especially like the tomato-blood). Surprisingly enough, I think Gollum playing Frodo against Sam was relatively well done, though I think the line should have been drawn before sending Sam home.
Overall, I definitely enjoyed this more than TTT, and probably than FOTR. I really started blinking when Frodo said, "...but not for me"! ;) Overall, I probably give this a low A (not A- yet) as a movie, and a C+ as an adaptation.

[Aden]

So to start with the good:

1) I liked Minas Tirith
2) The battle scenes were good (except from Legolas...)
3) The hobbits
4) Theoden's part
5) Minas Morgul

I disliked:
1)When entering the paths of the dead (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli) the horses flee in terror. I think that PJ should emphasize the loyalty of those horses.
2)Denethor eating:eek:
3)I missed Mouth of Sauron
4)I think PJ presented Faramir weaker than he is.
5)Reduced the power of the Nazgul since Mery and Eowyn don't seem to suffer much (Mery even goes to the black gate to fight)
6) The palantir thrown in the water
7)on March 6 Dunedain and Elladan and Elrohir don't show up (Aragorn doesn't get the banner)

And... I hated:
1)Gandalf beating up Denethor:eek: :eek:
2)Arwen-scenes (especially the one with the baby:eek: )
3)The Scouring of Shire missing
4)Frodo sending away Sam

Anyway, despite these I really enjoyed the movie

[Nerdanel]

I saw it. Again. And loved it. Again.:p :D

I really dislike "Frodo the Cliffhanger"!!:eek: And some other important details did make me a bit angry.. Or, mostly, I just laughed..:D

But in the big whole, it was really good! I loved the horses, and the way the elves moved. But I expected the ships to be much larger! Guess I misunderstood in the book...

But, I'm glad PJ made the movies and no one else. He's successful. I want to see it again!!:D :D

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Aden
And I hated...
2)Arwen-scenes (especially the one with the baby:eek: )

she was one of the worst things in that movie. I winced every time she came on screen....

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Elvedans
Oops! I thought that was Cirdan!
Cirdan was behind Galadriel and Celeborn to the right.

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
she was one of the worst things in that movie. I winced every time she came on screen....

Granted that her (Arwen) parts, for the most part were not in the book, and I know that everyone will hate me for this, but I liked the part with her son and Aragorn, i liked how it showed that in her futcher was life ect., and it showed what her father must have been thinking before (and posably after) she got married about Aragorn and his dauter being together, because he wouldn't tell her about her sons life, only death. Even though it wasn't in the book, couldn't you picture her and Aragorn, at some point in the futcher having a son that runs up to the father and is like one of the best things that ever happend to Arwen? I think that even though it wasn't in the book, it was still very good, I agree that I am still and probally always will be mad at PJ for making Arwen rescue Frodo, and I always get mad and wince when that happens in the movie, but this other sceen, though it never happend, I though was really nice.

[cassiopeia]

I saw the ROTK yesterday. I am still numb, so my review will be brief. I loved it and it fulfilled my expectations. I still think the FOTR is my favourite, but the ROTK is much better than TTT.

Surprisingly, I didn't mind many of the changes. Frodo sending Sam away actually worked, although I would have preferred if PJ had stuck to the book. I didn't miss Saruman, but again it would have been good if he and Grima were in the movie. The only thing that really annoyed me was Gandalf repeatedly hitting Denethor -- why PJ needed to resort to violence when words would have been better is beyond me.

Sean Astin deserves an oscar for his performance. Sam has always been my favourite character in the books, and I am thankful that Sean did such a fantastic job.

Some things threw me because I'd pictured them differently in my imagination. I thought Mordor would be more red in colour. I didn't imagine that Bilbo looked so old, or that Frodo was completely covered in Shelob's cords.

The ending left me a bit dissapointed. I wish Sam and Rosie lived in Bag End. I was sad PJ didn't have Sam as Frodo's heir. Maybe Lobelia got Bag End. ;)

So many times in the movie I wanted to punch my fist in the air or jump up and down. And so many times I had a big smile on my face. I can't wait to see it again.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
yes, it was choppy editing, but I don't know ... somehow I didn't have a problem with it, because my brain just filled in the missing parts (and ignores the parts that they got wrong)

I wonder how people felt about the movie that HAVEN'T read the books? My stepfather never read the books and he went to see the movie. He overall enjoyed the movie as an action flick, but there were things he didn't understand. His comments included: how "base" Gandalf looked when he whacked Denethor ("the father of Faramir" in his words) with his staff; and he was particularly distracted and confused about Arwen's fate being tied to the Ring. He didn't see how that fit and he didn't like that part because it took the audience away from the story and then just left you confused.

After the fact, I told him it was not part of the story at all and I had no idea why it was put in either. He commented that it was probably the director's way of "making his mark on the story" since it wasn't his to begin with... and that the "yes men" probably told him what a great addition it was even though it stunk. :)

It was great that he said all of this on his own. I had never discussed my displeasure with how the movies had been changed at all. :)

[Millane]

ohhhh i agree with Cass i am still numb, all you lucky buggers have had it for like a week and a half and we only got it yesterday, best be quick gotta get my third fix soon...
i didnt mind Gandalf hitting Denethor in those parts because it was a spur of the moment thing Gandalf couldnt have stopped Denethor in the few seconds it would take for disorder amongst the soldiers so he beat him, works for me
did anyone else notice it but does Gamling threaten to "Kick Pippins arse" when he spills the drink on him, and did the storyboard artist make an appearance as a Gondorian soldier?
a few great moments
- Aragorn to the hobbits "you bow to no one":(
- Sam carrying frodo
oooops gotta go:p

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by thranduil
Cirdan was behind Galadriel and Celeborn to the right.

He was also in FotR, along with Galadriel and Gil-galad. It was during the scene of the Forging of the three elven rings, and it shows them wearing them...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Millane
[Band did the storyboard artist make an appearance as a Gondorian soldier?[/B]

Yup he was one of the soldiers at the Beacon in Minas Tirith :D I noticed that too! :p

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yup he was one of the soldiers at the Beacon in Minas Tirith :D I noticed that too! :p

When I saw him I thought: "Oh, that's Christian Rivers!" (I believe that's his name.) I think I've watched the DVD's too many times. :rolleyes:

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
The ending left me a bit dissapointed. I wish Sam and Rosie lived in Bag End. I was sad PJ didn't have Sam as Frodo's heir. Maybe Lobelia got Bag End. ;)
I loved the ending. To hear Sam say 'Well, I'm back' was great. (It made me think of Gwaimir). Of course it's sad that not all the loose ends could be tied up, but it was not bad. I didn't mind spending the rest of yesterday explaining to my cousins how everything turned out with Faramir and Éowyn and Saruman.

So many times in the movie I wanted to punch my fist in the air or jump up and down. And so many times I had a big smile on my face. I can't wait to see it again.
Me too! (If only we had been in the same cinema, Cass! :D)
It was fortunate that I didn't come in with extremely high expectations, and that I had read the spoilers in advance.
I had watery eyes in some scenes, because it was wonderful to actually see on the screen the more emotional parts of the book- Denethor admitting that he favoured Boromir, Sam carrying Frodo and everyone bowing to the Hobbits.
It also pleased me to see the story of how Sméagol got the Ring- it's one of my favourite parts of the Prologue. (I have some strange fascination with the Prologue). I also enjoyed reciting 'All that is gold does not glitter...' with Arwen. :p

I have to say that Frodo looked really weird wrapped up in Shelob's webs, though. :p

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Linaewen
I loved the ending. To hear Sam say 'Well, I'm back' was great. (It made me think of Gwaimir). Of course it's sad that not all the loose ends could be tied up, but it was not bad. I didn't mind spending the rest of yesterday explaining to my cousins how everything turned out with Faramir and Éowyn and Saruman.

There were lots of loose ends left untied -- Saruman and Grima, Eowyn/Faramir, what happened to Bill The Pony and Bag End, Legolas, Gimli and Eomer... I could go on. I hope some of these are tied up in the EE. So how long till that comes out? :)

I have to say that Frodo looked really weird wrapped up in Shelob's webs, though. :p

I thought he looked weird as well. Not how I pictured him when I read the book. And the Grey Havens were different as well -- I imagined it more open I suppose.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Linaewen
I have to say that Frodo looked really weird wrapped up in Shelob's webs, though. :p

Hihi, I was thinking that too. With the way Sam only removed the webbings on Frodo's face and those staring blue eyes, I couldn't help being constantly reminded of Egyptian mummies. :p That gave odd mental pictures.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Hihi, I was thinking that too. With the way Sam only removed the webbings on Frodo's face and those staring blue eyes, I couldn't help being constantly reminded of Egyptian mummies. :p That gave odd mental pictures.

In both times I watched ROTK, I heard someone mention that when Frodo was wrapped in Shelob's silk, he looked like Winona Ryder .:p

[bropous]

My review of Return of the King?

One word: PATHETIC!!!!!!

It was such a pale shadow of the book, and unnecessarily so. The changes to the characters and story line, again, were not needed, and the changes detracted from the story which the film was trying to tell.

Denethor? Puh-LEAZE!! Guess Jackson is too facile to be able to portray such a complex character, so he opts for turning this grand lord into a belching, cowardly, base pig. Interesting how Faramir and Boromir in the film sprang from THIS loon's drawers!

No Gandalf v. Witch King at the gates of Minas Tirith? NEEDLESS editing of the story! Can you honestly tell me that what ended up on the screen at that point was in ANY way more exciting than the original story?

And why no Houses of Healing? The Black Breath? Can you honestly say that this would not have added to character depth, even to the by-then misshapenly morphed Aragorn?

And oh crud could you ever write such a ho-hum appearance of the Black Ships at Pelennor? And the handy mechanics of wrapping up the siege by a bunch of ghosts meleeing pell-mell throughout the Citadel?

And why, oh why, the abandonment of the story arc with Frodo's mithril shirt and Sting ending up in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron?

Why in the hades have Samwise even AGREE to turn back and abandon Frodo to the wiles of Stinker/Slinker?

All this adds up to is that Peter Jackson, in his pumped-up hubris, fantasized about being a better storyteller than the greatest storyteller of the twentieth century, and then went out and gathered the funds to support his dream. He took these masterfully crafted books and tore out whole sections, threw in freshly-written retellings and filmed the whole thing.

The result? A pathetic, glossy, hollow, beautiful, choppy let-down, a tawdry, farcical sham perpetrated upon not only the millions of true Tolkien fans, but upon an unsuspecting public which now walks away from the theaters with only a slight-but-still-distorted impression of the true beauty of this most detailed universe created by a master of the works of English literature.

I've said it before: I still hold out hope that some day, someone comes along and makes the REAL film of The Lord of the Rings. Only then will the rest of the public realize what we mooters already know to our everlasting dismay: Peter Jackson is a buffoon and his films are a joke.

Mr. Bakshi, you have company......

[Elvengirl]

Well, we already knew you wouldn't like the movie before you saw it, but I'm curous to know if there is anything at all which you did like in the films?

[bropous]

Yes.

For the most part, the locations were expertly chosen, and I really liked the visualization of many of the Middle Earth locations, especially Minas Tirith and Cirith Ungol/Minas Morgul.

The Battle of the Pelennor fields was, with the above-noted exceptions, phenomenal.

The visualization of the Witch-King of Angmar was top-notch.

Gee, now do you have to point out things you hated about the movie since I've answered your challenge? That would be only fair, n'est-ce pas?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Arathorn
In both times I watched ROTK, I heard someone mention that when Frodo was wrapped in Shelob's silk, he looked like Winona Ryder .:p

Really? They must have an even more warped mind then me. And in case you're wondering: Yes, that is possible. :p

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
I
I think the most aggravating scenes for me were Frodo turning Sam away and Denethor's ridiculous death scene.:rolleyes: There are a few other small complaints. I would have like to see more on Faramir and Eowyn, the House of Healing (but I have seen pictures for it so it should be in the extended) and Legolas and Gimli.



theres her dislikes :D bropous

[Christiana]

I missed Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King, and Mouth of Sauron. But I hear that Gandalf vs Witch-king will be in EE, and a rumor that Mouth will be too. Guess I will just have to wait till next November.

[azalea]

I saw it again the other day, and I have to say I enjoyed it more the second time. Aside from the fact that I wasn't sick any more, I guess I was prepared for the changes/ omissions (not that they were as bad as those in TTT anyway). I came away from the theater feeling satisfied, and that it was a well done movie version of RotK. My criticisms remain, but my enjoyment of it deepened.
Regarding Shelob, one thing that bothered me there was Sam's posture when he sticks her. That chapter is my favorite episode of the trilogy, and my image will always be Sam planting his feet firmly apart and sticking Sting straight up above his head as Shelob plops herself downwards. It played out differently in the movie, but I'll admit it's not a make or break kind of change. ;)

I do want to see it again before it leaves theaters, because both times I had to sit right up front because the theater was so crowded, and I'd like to have a big screen viewing of it where the angle is a little better.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by azalea
Regarding Shelob, one thing that bothered me there was Sam's posture when he sticks her. That chapter is my favorite episode of the trilogy, and my image will always be Sam planting his feet firmly apart and sticking Sting straight up above his head as Shelob plops herself downwards. It played out differently in the movie, but I'll admit it's not a make or break kind of change. ;)


I imagined just like you described it! Hope I'll keep my own picture of it and don't change it to the movie-version..;) :D

Right now I'm watching a socumentary on how they made the film. There has been so many of those on TV the last few days! It's kind of interesting, but the documentaries focus more on the cast than the movie.

Now I can't wait until the EE comes!! But I'm going to die if I'll have to wait for 11 months..:( :(

[Elvengirl]

Originally posted by bropous


Gee, now do you have to point out things you hated about the movie since I've answered your challenge? That would be only fair, n'est-ce pas?

I belive I have already posted my major dislikes. Yes, Thranduil posted them.

One other thing I noticed on the second viewing:

As Gollum tosses the lembas off the cliff, it is dispersed as it falls to the ground. When Sam reaches the bottom of the stair, the lebas seems to be piled right in front of him. It would not have landed there. I just thought it was kind of ridiculous.

But seeing it for the second time was almost better. I was able to catch more little details and this time I could just relax without worrying about horrible changes being made. I do love this movie. :D

[Artanis]

I saw it again last night, and the impact was not lesser this time. It is an impressing movie. Never before have I experienced grown men crying in a theatre.

Some people here have said the battle scenes were too blurry. I do not agree. I think it was a good way to depict the chaos of the battlefield.

But, I'm still buggered by Gandalf's way of handling Denethor, and the way in which he took command over the men of Gondor. Hubby called it a coup d'Etat, and I have to agree with him.

[samwiselvr2008]

You could see that there was Bag End's door, and then a red door that Sam and his kids and (this is hard to admit) yes, that evil Rosie used also. It looked as if the red door conected into Bag End, and was just another way to get in. The question then would be: why didn't PJ just let them use the door that Frodo and Bilbo used? I don't know if the red door even connected into Bag End, that's just a guess, but after seeing it four times, you sorda think that it may connect into it, don't you? Well, if you can find it in a trailer, or pictures, or next time you go to the theater, look for it, and tell me what you think!

[Artanis]

I actually thought it wasn't supposed to be Bag End - since there's no mention of Rosie and Sam moving in with Frodo in the movie.

[azalea]

No, that wasn't Bag End. If they had intended for it to be Bag End they would have made it obvious, by filming it from the front just like it had been before. I guess it would have added too much for them to include the fact that they all lived there. :(

One thing I forgot to add in my last post was that upon my second viewing, I noticed that the main problem I had was in the first hour (approx.). I think it was all the time spent on the Gollum tricks Frodo/ Frodo sends Sam away thing that was the difficulty. I think they should have gone into Shelob much more quickly, then they could have included more that happened later on (in Cirith Ungol and the episode with the orc battalion, or more of them crossing Mordor), that way they still have plenty of scenes with Sam and Frodo, but it would have been "tighter," IMO (and of course closer to the book:D ).

[Rían]

Did anyone else almost bust out laughing at Aragorn's first line when he addresses the troops about to storm the Black Gate? His voice is very strong and nice further into the speech (and he has a nice voice) but the first line sounds like he just inhaled from a helium balloon ... His voice did this at several other points in the 3 movies - it gets kinda high-pitched and like his throat is constricted. It was unfortunate it happened at this speech, too - it made it sound comical!

Yes, I missed the Mouth of Sauron part too - and they really missed out on a suspenseful part, IMO - when Gandalf & co. see the mithril shirt and they think Frodo is prob. dead...

I've seen it twice now, and the Charge of the Rohirrim is incredible! And Sam, when he carries Frodo.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Did anyone else almost bust out laughing at Aragorn's first line when he addresses the troops about to storm the Black Gate? His voice is very strong and nice further into the speech (and he has a nice voice) but the first line sounds like he just inhaled from a helium balloon ... His voice did this at several other points in the 3 movies - it gets kinda high-pitched and like his throat is constricted. It was unfortunate it happened at this speech, too - it made it sound comical!

Yes, I missed the Mouth of Sauron part too - and they really missed out on a suspenseful part, IMO - when Gandalf & co. see the mithril shirt and they think Frodo is prob. dead...

I've seen it twice now, and the Charge of the Rohirrim is incredible! And Sam, when he carries Frodo.

Yeah I noticed his voice, especially in the council of Elrong when he says "You cannot wield it, none of us can. The Ring belongs to Sauron alone". lol he sounded like a keebler elf :p

Charge of the Rohirrim is probably one of the best scenes I've ever seen in a movie...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yeah I noticed his voice, especially in the council of Elrong when he says "You cannot wield it, none of us can. The Ring belongs to Sauron alone". lol he sounded like a keebler elf :p
Yes, yes, that's exactly it! It happened at the council, too! :D It made me bust up!

[samwiselvr2008]

I saw the movie again today, and so I have to disagree with myself, the part with Sam, Rose, Frodo II, and Elanor at the end didn't look like it was a part of Bag End this time. So where did they live, and who got the house? Stupid PJ!

[thranduil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Did anyone else almost bust out laughing at Aragorn's first line when he addresses the troops about to storm the Black Gate? His voice is very strong and nice further into the speech (and he has a nice voice) but the first line sounds like he just inhaled from a helium balloon ... His voice did this at several other points in the 3 movies - it gets kinda high-pitched and like his throat is constricted. It was unfortunate it happened at this speech, too - it made it sound comical!



I thought I was the only one who noticed.

[Gerbil]

YAY!
I´ve finally seen it (twice!).

And what can I say, but it´s the end (nearly, RotK EE AKA the last-gasp money maker) of nearly 3 years of going ´nice film, shame about the adaptation´.

I honestly think this is the worst of the 3 films. The story bore so little in relation to the original material it´s truly astounding.

OK, so I liked:

- The scenery and cities
- The battle (I R sucker for CG) - in particular when the Rohirrim charged I were rather moved :)
- The few lines kept in from the book
- No farting or burping jokes

Disliked:
- Pretty much everything else, but to be more specific...
- Legolas as chimpanzee and ultra-gay twat
- The rather extended role of the green weirdos.
- Denethor, nuff said.
- Sauron doubling as a lighthouse.
- Shelob. Just a big spider.
- The ending(s). too long for not enough impact. If I hear anyone else say they´ll give PJ the luxury of the endings I´ll scream.
- Saruman - palantir utter crap.
- Ugly orc chief

I dunno...
As a film, I enjoyed it. Some bits in particular stirred me more than I thought possible. Gandalf´s ascension of Minas Tirith was as close as I could possibly have hoped to my imagination. As was the charge of the Rohirrim (even if the negative ´death´aspect was actually part of their second charge in the book IIRC). Both these scenes moved me enough to be wiping tears from my eyes (which amused my GF no end!).
As an adaptation I was cringing.

So many missed oportunities from such a marvellous book, and we get this :/ PJ´s ego must only be matched by his bank balance and stomach fat.

Did anyone else think that PJ had more than a slight homage in his ghosts to the frighteners by the way? He's a bit of a one-trick pony when it comes to stuff he´s already done before.

But really, what´s the pont in going through it bit by bit destroying the film? Anyone who has read the books knows that the only person in history to match PJ´s butchery was Attila the Hun.

It actually makes me wonder if he´s read the books from cover to cover, or (in the words of Alan Partridge) ´read a bit a researcher highlighted in yellow´.

Full marks to Viggo who acted his little heart out and saved Aragorn from being a badly re-written coward with no sense of nobility, and raised him to the lofty heights of a badly re-written but passionately portrayed would-be King. Theoden is still my main man, I loved all his scenes and he acted wonderfully.

As for Gandalf, don´t EVER annoy that man when he has his staff around. How Pippin avoided repeated beatings) especially in FotR) I do not know.

OK, now to wait another 10 years or so for the PROPER version of LotR.

Oh oh! Final gripe! Extremely annoyed to watch the film and so obviously be able to point out where important scenes were cut specificially for the EE (their last chance to milk the cash-cow for now). I mean, PJ didn´t even bother to tie up the film properly around the scenes. This really made me feel like part of a huge marketing machine. Of course, this is kind of inherent, but for FotR and TTT I was at least able to forget it while I watched the films. Not so this one. Crude manipulation at it´s most obvious...

[obscenename]

As a film, I enjoyed it. Some bits in particular stirred me more than I thought possible. Gandalf´s ascension of Minas Tirith was as close as I could possibly have hoped to my imagination

Did anyone else find it odd that Gandalf took quite a while to reach the upper level on Shadowfax in Minas Tirith, but Pippin seemed to be able to run down 7 levels through the chaos and bring Gandalf back in the nick of time when Faramir was already on the pyre.

The wood was already stacked when Pippin was thrown out. Denethor would have had time to eat some grapes and take a nap before Pippin could have reached Gandalf. It seemed like a small continuity problem.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Extremely annoyed to watch the film and so obviously be able to point out where important scenes were cut specificially for the EE (their last chance to milk the cash-cow for now).
__________________________________
Yup. Some were sooo obvious. Like the elephant man orc asking "What about the wizard?" Obviously confrontation will be in the EE.

It's a pity the excellent WETA work and mostly excellent casting and acting weren't equaled by the significantly botched script in TT and ROTK. The green slime Army of the Dead more reminded me of Ghostbusters. I almost expected Harold Ramis and Bill Murray to pop up:
"If an army from Mordor
is attacking Minas Tirith,
who ya' gonna' call?
Orcbusters!"
As for Denethor, even given book/movie adaptation necessities, could have been portrayed as a tragic hero. And would it have taken PJ's Gondorians 2 or 3 seconds to give allegiance to Sauron:rolleyes:, and don't powerful rulers have competent bodyguards? Even putting aside the ban on the Istari of coercing people.
...their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good Unfinished Tales, The Istari

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes, the Gandalf staff attack is one of those moments when all one can conclude is that either they didn’t know or didn’t care that they were in conflict with the story at the most fundamental level. I now believe myself that they didn’t know. I don’t think they became aware of the significance of many of their changes until after Tolkien fans saw the films and began discussing them on the net.

The portrayal of Sauron as an eye atop the tower (that becomes a lighthouse) is the biggest example for me. They just didn’t know that Tolkien said that Sauron had reformed by this point and was the size of a large man (because it is in other sources, not the story itself). This is proved beyond any doubt when Jackson complained about the difficulty of a villain who was a disembodied eye.

It’s a fun movie, but a meaningful adaptation of Lord of the Rings it is not.

[Valandil]

OK - I've scanned this thread, but haven't read every word, so I don't know if it's been mentioned or not. Also, I may still post a full review - but after I've made a second or third viewing. And... I usually try real hard to just think pure thoughts and not have a dirty mind, etc - but;

When Merry and Eowyn are in the tent and he whips out his sword and proudly displays it... and she laughs - remember the scene? Does the whole thing seem kind of... phallic?

:eek:

(EDIT: hope this isn't going too far in the 'inappropriate content' department - and will gladly edit or delete posts if requested by a mod or admin)

[Falagar]

You are a sick man, Valandil. ;)

[Artanis]

Val, you dirty old man. :p

[Valandil]

Old? I won't even be 200 for several more months!!!:D

So... I guess the Norwegians here think it was just me. Or maybe they're just upset because in another thread I accused them of having small... feet.;)

[Elvengirl]

I agree wilth th Norwegians on this point. :p :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
So... I guess the Norwegians here think it was just me. Or maybe they're just upset because in another thread I accused them of having small... feet.;) It's you. And I'm not upset - I do have small feet. :p

[Christiana]

yeh, that scene made me wonder as well:p :D ;)

[Arien the Maia]

oh Val!!! now the next time I watch RotK I'll probably think of it!:p :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
oh Val!!! now the next time I watch RotK I'll probably think of it!:p :D

Sorry 'bout that.:)

[durin's bane]

Lol! :p

Alright, my review of The Return of the King.

First of all, this movie is spectacular. It dwarfs The Two Towers by far and is even better than The Fellowship of the Ring. True, there are some things that didn't come out on top, but it's hard to say "no" to RotK.

What I Liked:
-Everything Sam said. "I can't carry it... but I can carry you!" and "If I were going to marry someone, it would've been Rosie Cotton. It would've been her!" to name a few of his many good lines. Sean Astin's acting was also superb. I loved it when Sam falls down Cirith Ungol and sees the crumbs of lembas that Gollum dropped; Sam gets this sudden anger in his eyes. I had tears in my eyes in every one of his scenes.
-Pippin's acting and song. Billy Boyd has a beautiful singing voice.
-The seige of Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields. Amazing battles.
-Eowyn and the Witch King. I mean, who WOULDN'T like it?
-The charge of the Rohirrim.
-Aragorn bowing to the hobbits. Very touching.
-Faramir's hopeless attempt to stop the Mordor's forces. A true moment that all he wants is to be loved. T_T Umm...and there was lots of cool action. ^_^
-Sam and Rosie's wedding. I don't know why, but this made me so happy! All that toil paying off for our dear Sammy.

What I Didn't Like:
-Sauron's spotlight. I was strongly reminded of the K-Mart blue special light.
-Arwen
-Legolas's oliphaunt stunt. NO ONE could do that. However, I did laugh when Gimli said, "That still counts as one!"
-Arwen
-The Grey Havens scene. I was like, "Will Frodo just get on the boat already?"
-That peach Orc. I want to kill him!! Grr!!! Stupid little....
-The destruction of the Ring. A little overdone on some parts, and underdone on others.
-Arwen
-Denethor's death. When I saw him running off the wall blazing with flames, I was like, "WTF?!" o_O
-The moment with Frodo in bed, and the Fellowship comes in to see him and they're are happy. Why don't I like this part? Everyone looks stoned. XD

[Arien the Maia]

do you have it in for Arwen durin's bane?:D

the only part I liked with her in it was when she came to Aragorn at the end and "married" him...that part always makes me tear up and I do NOT know why!

Val....I just got back from seeing it again for the 4th time and sure enough when that part rolled around I had a big goofy smile on my face!!! :D

[Christiana]

youve seen it 4 times already? lucky!

i thought thatt Aragorn "finding" Arwen was pretty cheesy. but i thought it was a nice touch that Elrond had tears in his eyes.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Christiana
youve seen it 4 times already? lucky!

i thought thatt Aragorn "finding" Arwen was pretty cheesy. but i thought it was a nice touch that Elrond had tears in his eyes.

I had free movie passes that time:) got them for Christmas

[Christiana]

lucky! ive only seen it twice.
Ive heard that some heath org. was complaining that it promoted smoking, so thats why FJ had merry say the line "you smoke too much Pippin," or whatever it was. BTW, how many Academy Awards had it been nominated for?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Christiana
lucky! ive only seen it twice.
Ive heard that some heath org. was complaining that it promoted smoking, so thats why FJ had merry say the line "you smoke too much Pippin," or whatever it was. BTW, how many Academy Awards had it been nominated for?

yeah, I can see where people would think that about the whole smoking thing....I don't think the nominations for the Oscars come out til February though

[Dúnedain]

I saw it again tonight for the 3rd time :D I am amazed at how well this movie goes multiple times around. Even though I saw it 2-times previously, it didn't lose anything. I was still on the edge of my seat and it still felt like it was only an hour long. I keep picking up on more little things every time as well. I enjoyed it just as much as I did the first time!

[Elvet]

I saw RotK on Christmas Day, and finally have been able to pinpoint my dissatisfaction with the film.
I think the reason I wasn't as taken with this movie is that I had reread the book enough times now, and for once, the book has taken hold in my brain. In preparation for FotR, I dug out the books and read them the summer before the movie. This was the first time I had read them since I was a teenager. I tend to speed read (this held me in good stead during my university years) and unfortunately, my retention is poor. After I saw FotR, I was amazed at all the intricacies that I had missed when reading the books. The story was so much richer than what I had read. As well, I had all sorts of questions about the elves and the Grey Havens. So I went back and started again with the Silmarillion, Hobbit and LotR. I got Unfinished Tales and the Atlas of Middle-earth that year, too, and started my hunt for the 12 volumes of the History of Middle-earth. Just before TT was released, I reread LotR again. There was not much detail about Helm's Deep in the book (and battles are not that interesting for me anyways), so again, the movie was mind boggling. Now I was beginning to appreciate the movie as a separate vision from the books. I knew enough about the stories that I could tell what was different, but it didn't detract form the movie. I redid the full series from the Silmarillion in October.
I knew that this was the last time I would read RotK unaffected by P.J.'s visuals. Now that I've seen the movie, I'm hungering for the additional scenes that were left out (and hopefully will be included in the EE). I guess that's why I wasn't satisfied with the movie. I want to see the Houses of the Healing. The way Aragorn is recognized by the people of Gondor as the true King by covertly healing Merry, Eowyn and Faramir from the Black Breath is so much more interesting and tells more about Aragorn's nature as a ruler. How Faramir thaws Eowyn as they are both stuck on the sidelines having to watch the battle from afar. I wanted to see Eomer take his place as the King of the Rohan. I wanted to see the contingent of Elves arrive from Lothlorien and Rivendell, and to be at the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen. I feel bad that moviegoers will not understand why Denethor has gone mad with dispair and hopelessness, having been corrupted by Sauron through the palantir. Lastly, I will miss seeing the 4 returning Hobbit "showing their meddle" as they fight for their beloved Shire in a more direct way than they could have ever imagined.
Having said all of that, it was still a wonderful movie, and I think that P.J. does deserve some recognition for this achievement.

[Lizra]

So true, so true!! :)

I saw RoTK for the second time last night. I am so happy to be into "A Battle" (like a guy! woo! go me :D ) for the first time in my life. I'm somehow not too cranky about having to wait for the EE for maybe half of the left out goodies, and knowing the other half will not be seen on these gorgeous films. The books give me great comfort, and somehow, I'm happy knowing that this isn't "it".

You know....the films are done, this is it. :(

Since many layers were left out, ME has not been "done" totally, yet. (Hopefully it never will be "done". ;) )

I love Theoden!!!! I cried each time the Rohirrim begin their trek to Minas Tirith. Tears of joy! :) The battle of Pelennor Fields is so exciting and thrilling. I could watch it 20 times in a row. I'd like to see it in Imax form. I loved watching the ring slowly sinking into the lava. I might go again for a third time this week, alone. It is such a crime we can't go together Elvet! :mad:

[Nurvingiel]

Great review Elvet. Jackson does deserve recognition for making a highly enjoyable movie. I loved the Battle of Pelennor Fields too Lizra, I almost cried at the charge of the Rohirrim. That part was especially well done, and I appreciated the book lines.

[Christiana]

scenes that made me cry
-when sam thinks Frodo is dead and says "don't you leave me Mr frodo. Don't you go where I can't follow" :(
-when Gandalf described Death to Pippin
-the whole way up Mt. Doom
-the looks on the Fellowship's faces when they see that Mt. Doom is erupting, and think that Frodo and Sam completed the quest just to die
-aragorns coronation/meeting of Arwen:its so bittersweet to me!
-the voiceover: there are somethings time cant mend... *sniff*
-the Gray Havens
-the "Into the West"song

sheesh, the most I've ever cried in a movie before is one or two times!

critiques
-Arwens fate being tied to the ring
-The Star Wars lines at Theoden's death :rolleyes:
-Frodo's "regection" of sam
-at the Black Gate, they ride out on horses,but the horses vanished! What happened to Shadowfax?
-why didnt Shadowfax go to the west?hes my favorite character!

good things
-Although I didnt like Frodo "dissmising" sam, Sean pulled it off superbly. the look on his face! he looked like he had just watched his favorite dog be run over by a car!
-paths of the dead:very nice. I thought Viggo did a very good job there
-Battle of pelenor fields: wow
-Legolas's fight with the Mümak. Might not have been in the book, but thought it was cool
-the recitation of the linnod
-Arwen's line "there is no ship now that would bear me to the West":the script writers obviously have read the appendices ;)
-Mount Doom scene:all of it
-when Aragorn grbs the palantir from pippin and legolas knocks it from his hands:very nice touch there
-Shadowfax kicking Denethor: I thought that that was precisely what he needed!:D
-Aragorn's and Théodens speeches
-Shelob scene: I was perched on the edge of my chair :o
-Aragorns song at the end: YES! they put it in there!
-the song "into the west": captured the bittersweet ending perfectly



my time in the theater, however, stunk. i found myself really wishing that I was wearing my elf costume. among other things, i has a heavy wooden sword, which would have been very useful. the lady sitting next too me kept gasping and shreiking at every other scene. when Shelob stung frodo she screamed and jumped so much that she bumped into me. I really wished that I had brought my sword :rolleyes: then there were the people in front of me who kept standing up: blocked my view :mad: even more annoying, if thats possible, were the fangirls sitting a couple rows away. when they were showing the cast pictures at the end, and Aragorn came on screen, they jumped up and shouted "we love you Aragorn!":rolleyes:
I've come to a resolution: from now on all cinemas wust have two screens: one for loyal Lord of the Rings enthusiasts, and the other for annoying fangirls! (and fanboys ;) )

but all and all Im really glad i went: even if people did look at me strangely when I was saying in a restraind yell: go on White Rider! and when I started translating Aragorns song at the end for eveyone who wanted to hear (i'm sure it was the whole theater:rolleyes: )

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Christiana
-when Gandalf described Death to Pippin


I liked that too! It was Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house and what he saw upon entering Aman!

but I'm not sure if that is an accurate depiction of human death seeing as how they don't stay in Aman for very long before departing forever.

[cassiopeia]

Mortals go to the Halls of Mandos for a time after they die, so it's accurate -- but Gandalf doesn't mention that they don't stay there forever. But it implies that Frodo is going to die when he crosses the sea at the end; he *is* going to die there eventually, but he's going there to be healed. Even so, it's from one of my favourite parts of the LOTR (when Frodo departs and sees a swift sunrise.)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Mortals go to the Halls of Mandos for a time after they die, so it's accurate -- but Gandalf doesn't mention that they don't stay there forever. But it implies that Frodo is going to die when he crosses the sea at the end; he *is* going to die there eventually, but he's going there to be healed. Even so, it's from one of my favourite parts of the LOTR (when Frodo departs and sees a swift sunrise.)

yes that's true...I wish in the movie they would've shown Frodo entering Tol Eressea:(

[Christiana]

Im glad they didnt, cuz who could portray a world "more fair than mortal thought"? we would have just been dissapointed

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Christiana
Im glad they didnt, cuz who could portray a world "more fair than mortal thought"? we would have just been dissapointed

yes...we would be taking a chance on whether or not Aman lived up to our expectations or not...everyone had there own visions of how it would look....

[Thorin II]

I really enjoyed the movie. There were some gaps, many of which will be filled in by the EE.

Pelennor Fields was terrific, but I didn't like how easily the undead swept away the rest of Mordor's army. It seemed to take away from the valor of the free peoples in the battle.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Thorin II
I really enjoyed the movie. There were some gaps, many of which will be filled in by the EE.

Pelennor Fields was terrific, but I didn't like how easily the undead swept away the rest of Mordor's army. It seemed to take away from the valor of the free peoples in the battle.

But that's how the Army of the Dead swept through the Ships of the Corsairs in the books, so in that aspect it was accurate...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Dunedain
Originally posted by Thorin II
I really enjoyed the movie. There were some gaps, many of which will be filled in by the EE.

Pelennor Fields was terrific, but I didn't like how easily the undead swept away the rest of Mordor's army. It seemed to take away from the valor of the free peoples in the battle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But that's how the Army of the Dead swept through the Ships of the Corsairs in the books, so in that aspect it was accurate.
______________________________________

However, I think that's why Tolkien wisely "wrote out" the Army of the Dead after the Corsairs. It does rather cheapen the charge of the Rohirrim. In the book it's the one-two punch of the Rohirrim and then the South Gondor relief force that relieves the siege (plus the onset of the Prince of Dol Amroth led Gondor forces) that is decisive. More in keeping with Tolkien's sparing use of "magical type" elements. When the green slime overran the oliphaunts I was thinking, what was the point of Eowyn's and even Leggy's stunts against them, just let the Dead take care of all of the bad guys and their oliphaunts. It's too easy a solution.
Like movie Gimli suggested, why not take the Green Slime Army to Mordor?

[Nurvingiel]

I thought the Undead Army (green slime, lol! :D) got far too much camera time. In the books, a company of Dunedain went with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli through the Paths of the Dead. The Undead Army helped them take over the Corsair ships, in fact, they probably couldn't have accomplished this feat without them. After that, Aragorn held their oath fulfilled, and they departed.

Seeing their enemies arrive in the ships of their allies was a 'double-whammy' to Mordor's armies. Aragorn and company fought until they met up with Eomer in battle, and Aragorn and Eomer drew swords together.

[Entlover]

Did the ending remind anyone else of the end of The Good Son, where Elijah also hangs off a cliff?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Entlover
Did the ending remind anyone else of the end of The Good Son, where Elijah also hangs off a cliff?

Hah! Maybe he's been 'type-cast'... he'll be stuck forever, playing characters who get dangled off cliffs at the end of movies!:D

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Seeing their enemies arrive in the ships of their allies was a 'double-whammy' to Mordor's armies. Aragorn and company fought until they met up with Eomer in battle, and Aragorn and Eomer drew swords together.
__________________________________
Another chance blown by PJ for an intelligent book adaptation to movie form. In the book:
And so at length Eomer and Aragorn met in the midst of the battle, and they leaned on their swords and looked on one another and were glad.
"Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us," said Aragorn. "Did I not say so at the Hornburg?"
"So you spoke," said Eomer, "but hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man foresighted. Yet twice blessed is help unlooked for, and never was a meeting of friends more joyful." And they clasped hand in hand. "Nor indeed more timely," said Eomer. "You come none too soon, my friend. Much loss and sorrow has befallen us."
"Then let us avenge it, ere we speak of it!" said Aragorn, and they rode back to battle together.

It seems to me a fairly minor editing job could have made that a great "movie moment."

[Nurvingiel]

I love that part, I agree, it would have been genius. Of course, Jackson did opt for Legolas' ridiculous stunt skateboarding down the stairs at Helm's Deep rather than have Aragorn and Eomer ride out together. :rolleyes:

[Elvengirl]

I, for one, liked Legolas's stunt. :p :D There were plenty of other scenes that did not need to be filmed :)

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
But that's how the Army of the Dead swept through the Ships of the Corsairs in the books, so in that aspect it was accurate...

True, but in the movie, they swept through Minas Tirith instead. The implication was that the Army of the Dead could've won the battle by themselves. Just for purposes of the movie, I didn't care for that. I didn't mind PJ changing their role and bringing them directly to Pelennor Fields, but I didn't like how they seemed to carry the day by themselves.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Entlover
Did the ending remind anyone else of the end of The Good Son, where Elijah also hangs off a cliff?

That made me laugh. Incidentally, any movie where Macauley Culkin falls off a cliff is fine in my book.

[Nurvingiel]

Mcauley Caulkin = Gollum... new thread potential. :D

[mithrand1r]

I just saw LOTR:ROTK.

I am just going to write down some of my impressions of the film. (I am going to try and separate film from book if I can)

I thought the grey havens was nicely done.

Shelob was portrayed very well.

The more I think about it, the Eye of Sauron portrayed in the film is too literal for my taste.

A large emphaisis on battles and fighting.

A better balance of humor with drama, than other two films.

No Dwarf tossing jokes. :)

Denethor did not make any sense as a leader of the city.

Battle scenes were very chaotic and difficult (for me) to follow.

It seemed odd to me that Gandalf would say Pippen was in service to Gondor, then moments later we see pippin taking his oath of fealty to Denethor.

I did not like the part with the overlay of pippin singing, denethor eating and faromir's charge of the light brigade. (Singing was fine. The charge was stupid. [Not so much how it was portayed, but the fact that it happened]

Minas Morgul looked very well done. I liked the lighting effect on the city.

The oath breakers reminded me of the SC Johnson Scrubbing Bubbles with the speed and ferocity that the undead soldiers took care of the enemy soldiers.

Aragorn's acceptance of cup from Eowyn seemed to signify something to Eowyn and Theoden, but I am not sure what.

Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens.

Interlude with Elrond and Arwen seemed out of place (for me)

Interesting that Elrond was able to arrive in Rohan to deliver his message to Aragorn.

The attack against the oliphants reminded me of SW:ESB on hoth.

Legolas must have stickum on his hands and feet to climb on the sides of the oliphants.

Grond was well done. (no pun intended ;))

Seems odd that the hobbits would sleep so close to the edge of the cliff with gollum there. (promise or not, I still think it is odd.)

Musical score was excellent.

Cirith Ungol -- The way the orcs killed themselves fighting did not make much sense to me. (If I was to strictly judge film without any reference to book.) Seemed like a convenient way to give Sam easy access to tower to find Frodo.

Never saw Sam take the ring and sting. This made it look odd when Sam tells Frodo that he has the ring.

The stairs did not really look like stairs to me. More like a path up the mountain.

Seemed odd that Saruman would be without power in Orthanc. He is a wizard of same order as Gandalf and he is very powerful. (as shown during wizard duel from FOTR)

Saruman being tied up in this manner is unsatisfactory.

Surprised that Faromir lived after being dragged aroung by the stirrups.

[Millane]

It seemed odd to me that Gandalf would say Pippen was in service to Gondor, then moments later we see pippin taking his oath of fealty to Denethor. i think he was in the proper proceeding just hadnt taken place yet...
not being rude but how would you have liked to see Sauron being portrayed in a non literal way, to me works well in the book, best they could do for the movie...

[Elvedans]

I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn. It is still amazing, but i did notice the thing about Legolas climbing up the bare skin of a Mumak.
By the way, is nobody in Middle Earth a vertigo sufferer? Frodo and Sam sleep right on the edge of a drop steeper than any ive ever seen and the Rohirrim camp on a remarkably small platform on the side of a very high cliff without batting an eyelid. Then there's the whole "elf standing on top of a moving Mumak like he s having a stroll in the park" thing.
However, it still made me cry with joy. My favourite scenes are the Lighting of the Beacons, The Muster of Rohan, The charge of the Rohirrim and Aragorn at the black gates.

[azalea]

I agree with a lot of what you said, mithrandir. You put your finger on some of the specifics that added up to the "choppiness" I felt while watching it. There were some scenes that weren't very well "explained," and could really have used a little fleshing out, such as the orcs fighting amongst themselves in CU. Hopefully we'll get it in the EE. Also, the Aragorn/ Eowyn bits you mentioned -- yeah, what exactly was it that made Theoden think they were getting together? That did confuse me, and I think it could have been left out. It was enough to have Aragorn "break her heart," and I still maintain they could have found room for at least a LITTLE of the Houses of Healing.

Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do," I might have a beam coming from the upper window of the tower, rather than the whole eye displayed on the top, then had flashes of an eye when Frodo had visions of it or could feel it on him.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elvedans
I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn.

I believe she says "Westu hal". I remember that being said to Theoden in the books. I don't know it's meaning, and I can't find it in it's exact context in the book, but I know I just read it last week, lol. I would assume it is some kind of welcome/greeting or a blessing of some sort...

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Millane
i think he was in the proper proceeding just hadnt taken place yet...
not being rude but how would you have liked to see Sauron being portrayed in a non literal way, to me works well in the book, best they could do for the ovie...

Re: Pippin & oath of fealty.
That is a good enough explanation for me.


Re: Sauron. I do not consider your question rude. It is valid.

I am not sure what would have been a better way to portray Sauron. I think azalea's thought is more in line with what I was thinking.

Originally posted by azalea
Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do,"


I guess it is because of the way that Sauron is portrayed in the book. Sauron only permits to have his servents refer to him as the "lidless eye", but IIRC Gollum mentions that he is a black form with only four fingers on the hand that formerly wore the ring. Sauron is just a presense (sp?) behind the scenes pulling all of the strings.

Sauron can focus his attention in many areas, but not necessarily at the same time. Similar to a beam of light but not the same thing.

I did not like the way that Sauron was focusing most of his attention within Mordor (in a spotlight fashion) in the movie. In the book most of his attention was focused on the battle at Minas Tirith and then on the approaching army from Minas Tirith approaching the Black Gate.

It just comes down to my personal taste. I do not blame PJ & Company for their decision in portraying Sauron. Their method is just too literal for my liking.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Elvedans
I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn. It is still amazing, but i did notice the thing about Legolas climbing up the bare skin of a Mumak.
He's actually climbing arrows that had been shot into the Mumak's side. I still think this stunt is out of place in the movie though.

By the way, is nobody in Middle Earth a vertigo sufferer? Frodo and Sam sleep right on the edge of a drop steeper than any ive ever seen and the Rohirrim camp on a remarkably small platform on the side of a very high cliff without batting an eyelid. Then there's the whole "elf standing on top of a moving Mumak like he s having a stroll in the park" thing.
Hobbits do not like heights. In Lorien, (in the books) they didn't feel comfortable sleeping on flets in trees. I felt their choice of campsite was odd considering how little Hobbits like heights, and how percarious they were.

However, it still made me cry with joy. My favourite scenes are the Lighting of the Beacons, The Muster of Rohan, The charge of the Rohirrim and Aragorn at the black gates. I love these parts also. Despite the mistakes, I did enjoy the movie a lot.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Originally posted by azalea
Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do,"



I agree with more subtle. In fact this is my single biggest complaint of all three films, PJ if your listening THE EYE IS NOT REAL. Sauron is in the Tower. He has taken the form of a hideously large (but not gigantic) dark man shape still missing the finger from which the ring was cut (in case anyone still doesn't know this is covered in letters and the Sil).The “eye� is a symbol of his focused power.

There are so many ways this dark shape could have been shown in the shadows of the tower, a real missed opportunity. As for the lighthouse eye, what would the wraiths do if they got the ring? Throw it at the burning eye? stupid! stupid! stupid!

[Entlover]

Your comments are excellent, mithrandir.
Some comments in reply:

Originally posted by mithrand1r
[
"I did not like the part with the overlay of pippin singing, denethor eating and faromir's charge of the light brigade. (Singing was fine. The charge was stupid. [Not so much how it was portayed, but the fact that it happened]"
I too found this scene very uncomfortable to watch, though I enjoyed Billy's singing a lot. It's supposed to make us feel this way, disgusted, sorrowful and angry at once. It did make Faramir look like an idiot for taking all his men on a suicide run to please his father. In the book it's not so obviously suicidal.


"Aragorn's acceptance of cup from Eowyn seemed to signify something to Eowyn and Theoden, but I am not sure what."
I believe it signified a blessing only, but she's assuming he feels the same way about her as she feels, so Theoden, who doesn't know any reason why they shouldn't get together, assumes they have an understanding.

"Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens."
Well, if you've ever been in love, you don't just grab the next person of the right sex if the one you're in love with happens to become unavailable. (I don't mean that to sound rude) Aragorn's in love with Arwen (we may not like his taste, but that's the plot) and doesn't want a substitute. He says as much to Eowyn, "I can't give you what you need."


"Cirith Ungol -- The way the orcs killed themselves fighting did not make much sense to me. (If I was to strictly judge film without any reference to book.) Seemed like a convenient way to give Sam easy access to tower to find Frodo."
It seemed pretty clear to me that they were fighting over Frodo's mithril shirt, and it turned into a freeforall -- they're a nasty violent bunch anyway.

"Never saw Sam take the ring and sting. This made it look odd when Sam tells Frodo that he has the ring."
That was supposed to be suspenseful. I really missed the part where Sam puts on the ring and imagines himself the Gardener of Middle-earth, am hoping some of that may appear in the EE. But probably not since that would ruin the suspense.

[/B]

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Entlover
Your comments are excellent, mithrandir.
Some comments in reply:


"Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens."

Well, if you've ever been in love, you don't just grab the next person of the right sex if the one you're in love with happens to become unavailable. (I don't mean that to sound rude) Aragorn's in love with Arwen (we may not like his taste, but that's the plot) and doesn't want a substitute. He says as much to Eowyn, "I can't give you what you need."

Thanks for the complement.

To clarify a little bit. From TT, it seemed that Aragorn was resolved to let Awren sail into the west forever. In Rohan it seemed that Arragorn and Eowyn were getting along well and that it may possibly lead to a deeper relationship.

However, your point is well taken. I did not wish to imply that Aragorn should grab the first available lady to fill Awren's spot.

From the movie, it just seemed a bit sudden to me. (Even though I am aware of how things turn out in the books.)

[Gerbil]

Seen it again (and hopefully about to get it on DVD - this whole country is full of pirate DVD stores - some of them even boast they are the extended edition, so god knows who they are trying to convince!), and I have to say, my views on each of the scene polarizes more with each viewing.
The great bits get better, and the bad gets abominable.

First off:
- Unlike many people, I REALLY HATE the start. The smeagol bit is just plain rubbish. Serkis, who acts so well as gollum, is here just shown as rubbish. I feel there´s no passion, or talent displayed at all here, and given that while this slow bit of pap is playing out I´m thinking ´they could have shown Saruman here´, well, I´m never going to like it. FotR opened with the rather tasty back story, TTT opened with the fantastic (and still one of my favourite clips of the whole lot) Gandalf vs Balrog freestyle freefalling competition, and we get this weak drawn out non-plot-enhancing thing. I´m more likely to yawn in boredom here than anywhere else.

Secondly:
- The music. I lurve the original compositions. I hate the sped-up super version of the original themes.
- Army of the dead. Overused,and as noted elsewhere, kind of make the Rohirrim a bit pointless.Theodon would be glad to know he died for no reason. Old codger´s time was up either way :)
- The endings. I really dislike the final one of Sam. I know PJ used this as his last ditch attempt to pretend he was faithful to the source, but I just don´t think it works here. Apart from the unrest of the audience, I don´t think it´s well acted or makes enough of an emotional point as the source text. Should have stopped at the Havens. Which I think were nice, but to be honest the Elves really chose a crap place to build their main harbour, I mean, could they have found anywhere less conducive to shipping?
- The more I see of the suicide charge of Faramir the more I hate the extremely simplistic analogy at the end of Denethor eating like a 3 year old. I must admit, I´m a bit suprised that many people had to have this bit explained to them, because for me it´s about as obvious as anything can be. That it´s rather forced (exactly WHO do you know that eats like that?) just annoys me.
- The Eye. Forget the Duracell Bunny, this year I´ll be mostly wearing Sauron Batteries.
- Charge of the Rohirrim - oh yeah baby!
- Denethor generally - soon to have his backstory explained more in the next New Line film ´Dumb, Dumber and Denethor´, a wacky look at the ruler of Minas Tirith and how care in the community goes wrong - with hilarious results!
- Beacon lighting - while filmically (sp?) very nicely done, this still bothers me (even if I ignore the god-awful way it all gets started). Mainly annoying simply because most of the beacons are just lumps of wood above the snow line on mountians. Any decent snow or rain storm would put these little babies out of action in a second - hardly a good idea given what they are for. Also, in stupidly remote locations with no provision for the wardens of each beacon. I pity the poor gits who have to trek up the mountains every day and (more than likely) rebuild the blown down stacks of wood.
- Arwen - still hate her. 3rd billing, achieves northing. Can´t act, can´t sing, can probably dance a little.
- Cirith Ungol - they left so much out this part really didn´t make sense.
- As usual, all the essential omitted bits at the expense of PJ´s purely carnal love of the MASSIVE engine. Who needs proper plot developments or well thought out characters when you can extend a battle scene for 5 minutes, eh?

OK favourite characters (acting and actual role in film):

Theoden, Eowyn. Probably the only two who stay even reasonably close to what they should be in the book (although Theoden came close to being spanked for his ´why should we help Gondor?´non-plot twist.
Sam. He were great, so I´ll forgive him being sent away.

Least favourite:

Denethor (do I really have to explain why?), Arwen and Elrond - mainly because they are just a bit silly with their out-of-context actions in the book.
Smeagol. Pointless, badly acted, and when he´s in the ´turning into gollum´ stages he just looks really crap. I mean, like, awful. Badly made up, stupid looking, pathetic.

Wasted opportunitys:

Gandalf and Aragorn: Both actors do so much with the rubbish dealt out to them by PJ that they deserve special mention for rising above their roles. Sadly though, the sheer scale of the changes to how they act mean I (metaphorically) weep when I think about them.

And the rest:

Acting generally was good. Frodo at least seems to have expanded his reportoire of facial expressions from hurt and doey-eyed innocence lost to include the scary maniacal I CLAIM THE RING face and the equally scary (but unintentionally so) I HAVE REACHED PEACE face at the grey havens. I´m sorry girls, but that face tells me he was thinking about Legolas in a swimming costume...

Scenery and locations as ever were beautiful, but that´s pretty much a given. I´ve started re-reading LotR (slowly though, the books are very expensive in english over here, not to mention hard to find), and I´m already noting two things - one is that my memory, while pretty damn amazing of LotR books, still leaves enough gaps for me to ´rediscover´ them afresh each time. The other is that PJ really really really did a crap job of converting book to screen. Or, book to pamphlet to screen, since he dumbed it down so much.

Book Aragorn would have the wimpy film Aragorn anyday! (Not that I´m dissing Viggo who acted superbly, just that PJ threw him a bit of a raw deal).

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Seen it again (and hopefully about to get it on DVD - this whole country is full of pirate DVD stores - some of them even boast they are the extended edition, so god knows who they are trying to convince!), and I have to say, my views on each of the scene polarizes more with each viewing.
The great bits get better, and the bad gets abominable.

First off:
- Unlike many people, I REALLY HATE the start. The smeagol bit is just plain rubbish. Serkis, who acts so well as gollum, is here just shown as rubbish. I feel there´s no passion, or talent displayed at all here, and given that while this slow bit of pap is playing out I´m thinking ´they could have shown Saruman here´, well, I´m never going to like it. FotR opened with the rather tasty back story, TTT opened with the fantastic (and still one of my favourite clips of the whole lot) Gandalf vs Balrog freestyle freefalling competition, and we get this weak drawn out non-plot-enhancing thing. I´m more likely to yawn in boredom here than anywhere else.

Secondly:
- The music. I lurve the original compositions. I hate the sped-up super version of the original themes.
- Army of the dead. Overused,and as noted elsewhere, kind of make the Rohirrim a bit pointless.Theodon would be glad to know he died for no reason. Old codger´s time was up either way :)
- The endings. I really dislike the final one of Sam. I know PJ used this as his last ditch attempt to pretend he was faithful to the source, but I just don´t think it works here. Apart from the unrest of the audience, I don´t think it´s well acted or makes enough of an emotional point as the source text. Should have stopped at the Havens. Which I think were nice, but to be honest the Elves really chose a crap place to build their main harbour, I mean, could they have found anywhere less conducive to shipping?
- The more I see of the suicide charge of Faramir the more I hate the extremely simplistic analogy at the end of Denethor eating like a 3 year old. I must admit, I´m a bit suprised that many people had to have this bit explained to them, because for me it´s about as obvious as anything can be. That it´s rather forced (exactly WHO do you know that eats like that?) just annoys me.
- The Eye. Forget the Duracell Bunny, this year I´ll be mostly wearing Sauron Batteries.
- Charge of the Rohirrim - oh yeah baby!
- Denethor generally - soon to have his backstory explained more in the next New Line film ´Dumb, Dumber and Denethor´, a wacky look at the ruler of Minas Tirith and how care in the community goes wrong - with hilarious results!
- Beacon lighting - while filmically (sp?) very nicely done, this still bothers me (even if I ignore the god-awful way it all gets started). Mainly annoying simply because most of the beacons are just lumps of wood above the snow line on mountians. Any decent snow or rain storm would put these little babies out of action in a second - hardly a good idea given what they are for. Also, in stupidly remote locations with no provision for the wardens of each beacon. I pity the poor gits who have to trek up the mountains every day and (more than likely) rebuild the blown down stacks of wood.
- Arwen - still hate her. 3rd billing, achieves northing. Can´t act, can´t sing, can probably dance a little.
- Cirith Ungol - they left so much out this part really didn´t make sense.
- As usual, all the essential omitted bits at the expense of PJ´s purely carnal love of the MASSIVE engine. Who needs proper plot developments or well thought out characters when you can extend a battle scene for 5 minutes, eh?

OK favourite characters (acting and actual role in film):

Theoden, Eowyn. Probably the only two who stay even reasonably close to what they should be in the book (although Theoden came close to being spanked for his ´why should we help Gondor?´non-plot twist.
Sam. He were great, so I´ll forgive him being sent away.

Least favourite:

Denethor (do I really have to explain why?), Arwen and Elrond - mainly because they are just a bit silly with their out-of-context actions in the book.
Smeagol. Pointless, badly acted, and when he´s in the ´turning into gollum´ stages he just looks really crap. I mean, like, awful. Badly made up, stupid looking, pathetic.

Wasted opportunitys:

Gandalf and Aragorn: Both actors do so much with the rubbish dealt out to them by PJ that they deserve special mention for rising above their roles. Sadly though, the sheer scale of the changes to how they act mean I (metaphorically) weep when I think about them.

And the rest:

Acting generally was good. Frodo at least seems to have expanded his reportoire of facial expressions from hurt and doey-eyed innocence lost to include the scary maniacal I CLAIM THE RING face and the equally scary (but unintentionally so) I HAVE REACHED PEACE face at the grey havens. I´m sorry girls, but that face tells me he was thinking about Legolas in a swimming costume...

Scenery and locations as ever were beautiful, but that´s pretty much a given. I´ve started re-reading LotR (slowly though, the books are very expensive in english over here, not to mention hard to find), and I´m already noting two things - one is that my memory, while pretty damn amazing of LotR books, still leaves enough gaps for me to ´rediscover´ them afresh each time. The other is that PJ really really really did a crap job of converting book to screen. Or, book to pamphlet to screen, since he dumbed it down so much.

Book Aragorn would have the wimpy film Aragorn anyday! (Not that I´m dissing Viggo who acted superbly, just that PJ threw him a bit of a raw deal).

Well said.

I mainly agree with you about the smeagol opening. They could have made it less time consuming as in Bakshi's version (about 30-50 seconds, IIRC)

If Denethor's eating was supposed to symbolize anything I must of missed it. Expect for a reference to Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burns, I found it pointless and unecessary. Hard to belive movie Denethor was permitted to remain steward of Gondor.

I did not feel strongly about Sam's ending. It wasn't spectacular or very bad. It just was.

I never considered the practicality of the becon lighting system. I just thought it was visually pretty cool. You make a good point. Should pass long johns to the people manning the beacons. ;)

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with you about the opening Gerbil. I actually haven't said anything about it yet, but that part made me wonder why Andy Serkis (who is great in TTT) was cast as Gollum? The make-up of the transformation part was okay, I didn't take issue with it. I was bored during that part thinking, "Get corrupted already Gollum."

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded.
I agree with that. They did seem to be like country bumkin idiots. Not at all the way I would think they were.


Nurvingiel - I didn't get bored with the corruption part - I just think that the deagol/smeagol part was stupid.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't have a problem with the corruption part. What I meant was during the fishing/fighting scene I was bored and wanted it to advance to the corruption part.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I don't have a problem with the corruption part. What I meant was during the fishing/fighting scene I was bored and wanted it to advance to the corruption part.
Okay - that's the same part that I had a problem with too. I thought you had a problem with the transformation part and thought that it dragged out too muh with him climbing into the Misty Mouintains and everything.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded. It was in the same letter where Tolkien said he wished that he had written Arwen taking a weakling Frodo to the Ford. It was also where he said he wanted her fate tied to The Ring, so that Aragorn would have a real reason to fight against Sauron, not this "mamby-pamby to save ME crap" as he so eloquently put it in this letter. :rolleyes: It's such a good thing that PJ found that letter and made those great changes in the movie. :p

[The Gaffer]

Hehe. I couldn't care less whether they'd gone up to Wolvercote cemetery, dug Tolkien up, plugged him into the mains and got him to sign-off the script: what matters is whether it works as a film. Which that opening doesn't.

Nice review, Gerbil. "Nice" as in thoughtful and accurate, that is.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I agree with that. They did seem to be like country bumkin idiots. Not at all the way I would think they were.

I agree. In fact, I really disliked the way all the hobbits were portrayed as country bumpkins. I'm surprised they managed to find their way out of the front door, let alone destroy the Ring :rolleyes:

And I agree about the lighting of the beacons - it was completely impractical. Just because it looked pretty you were supposed to forget how silly it was.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

And I agree about the lighting of the beacons - it was completely impractical. Just because it looked pretty you were supposed to forget how silly it was.

I thought the beacon thing was ridiculous.

Firstly, it made it seem as though the beacons stretched only to Rohan, as opposed to a tool to summon all of the surrounding people who lived outside the city (anybody else wonder where those people were? Like farmers? what were they eating in there?)

Secondly, real historical beacons used fire as a way of creating large plumes of smoke. Smoke is more easily visible than just fire. (One of the most famous sets of beacons were employed by the Chinese along the Great Wall. In a recent recreation it was learned that warning messages could be sent hundreds and hundreds of miles down the wall, in a matter of hours, and seeing a panoramic distance shot of the smoke plumes in the documentary looked better than the mountain top beacons to my eyes anyway, the plumes looked magnificent)

Hollywood does this “beacon� thing all the time and it keeps getting worse and worse. Common sense takes a backseat to the visual eye candy. It was one thing when someone broke a chair over someone’s back in a saloon brawl and the chair just shattered and the fight continued, but a flaming Denethor running 200 yards completely engulfed in flames? A beacon station alone above the cloud line? It looked like the top of Everest for God's sake.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
A beacon station alone above the cloud line?
This is the only problem I had with the beacon scene. I though, "Who's going to see that?" when it was lit. I didn't think of the smoke aspect, but now that you mention it, it does make sense.

[Flame_of_Udun]

Overall, I thought it was excellent, though the theatrical cut let me down ever so slightly. But this is only because of all the gushing reviews that said it was absolutely perfect. I read them for about a week before viewing the movie.

It still feels a little rushed - especially the transition from the siege of Minas Tirith to when they leave for the show down at the Black Gates. I personally felt like they needed a lot more time with the characters in between those two things. I didn't feel nearly as close to Aragorn because he had so little meaningful dialogue as I was used to.

Some random thoughts:

The Witch-king was awesome. When he rose up from Minas Morgul on the Nazgul, it was one of the few times in the entire trilogy that I felt some semblance of the fear that they are supposed to convey. I cannot believe the showdown with Gandalf was cut.

Gandalf was great, but I kept getting the feeling that he should have been more powerful - I mean, he defeated a Balrog when he was in a weaker form, yet he has his hands full with a squadron of orcs?

The Legolas stunt was the one of the only scenes in the movie that I really dislike. The other is Denethor running on fire. That seems to be the general consensus here, so no surprise there.

Shelob met my expectations. The CGI was seamless.

I wanted to see Barad-dur tremble on its foundations at the point when Frodo willfully set the ring to his finger and truly claimed it as his own - just like in the book.

The elephant man orc was ridiculous

The changes to the dynamic of Sam, Frodo and Gollum did not bother me too much.

The supposed multiple endings that the critics are griping about is fine. I saw absolutely no problems with it. People need to learn a little patience. I think they are used to the typical Hollywood crap where everything is happy, and you rush right out of the theater after the payoff.

Can't wait for the extended cut. Most of the problems will surely be fixed.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Flame_of_Udun
It still feels a little rushed - especially the transition from the siege of Minas Tirith to when they leave for the show down at the Black Gates. I personally felt like they needed a lot more time with the characters in between those two things. I didn't feel nearly as close to Aragorn because he had so little meaningful dialogue as I was used to.
I agree. Also, I felt the battle at the Black Gate was too short, and Pippin was robbed of his moment of glory from the book when he slew the troll.

The Witch-king was awesome. When he rose up from Minas Morgul on the Nazgul, it was one of the few times in the entire trilogy that I felt some semblance of the fear that they are supposed to convey.
That part was great, he was excellently scary. There were a few details in that scene that didn't sit right for me, but the most important part was that the Witch-King was properly evil and scary.

I cannot believe the showdown with Gandalf was cut.
That was a mistake, and the Witch-King even said he would deal with him. Maybe he meant after Theoden. He didn't expect to get smeared by Eowyn and Merry.

Gandalf was great, but I kept getting the feeling that he should have been more powerful - I mean, he defeated a Balrog when he was in a weaker form, yet he has his hands full with a squadron of orcs?
I disagree. Gandalf was dreadful in RotK, most unfortunately. Sir Ian McKellan is obviously a genius, since Gandalf was still wonderfully acted despite his terrible lines and random out of character actions (including murdering Denethor!:mad: )

Shelob met my expectations. The CGI was seamless.
The part where she comes out of another exit of her lair behind Frodo was really creepy and wonderously done.

I wanted to see Barad-dur tremble on its foundations at the point when Frodo willfully set the ring to his finger and truly claimed it as his own - just like in the book.
That would have been cool to see. I thought that scene was very well done, and so I didn't miss it. (I do now though.)
The only details I didn't like in that scene was
1) The absence of Sam showing Gollum mercy after they fight, and Sam could have killed him
2) Gollum jumping on Frodo (in Sammath Naur) instead of struggling with him normally. I just pictured them both standing and grappling, Frodo being invisible of course. (That's not a biggie.)
3) Frodo stupid falling off the stupid cliff and people thinking he's dead.

The elephant man orc was ridiculous
I prefer to think of him as the Popcorn-head orc. I mean, let's leave the poor Elephant-man out of this.

The changes to the dynamic of Sam, Frodo and Gollum did not bother me too much.
I was bothered by this change, but Frodo and Sam were still very good. Sam has been consistently awesome in all three movies, and Frodo showed huge development from his roles in FotR and TTT.

The supposed multiple endings that the critics are griping about is fine. I saw absolutely no problems with it. People need to learn a little patience. I think they are used to the typical Hollywood crap where everything is happy, and you rush right out of the theater after the payoff.
Yes, but they still should have done the Scouring. They had the time.

Can't wait for the extended cut. Most of the problems will surely be fixed.
I really hope you won't be disappointed. Denethor will still be randomly out of character, but at least Gandalf and the Witch-King will confront at the gates of Minas Tirith. (I've heard that anyway.)

[cassiopeia]

I had the same thoughts about the beacons as well. When I first saw the movie, all I could think about was the poor people who had to stay up there and light the beacons.

I also thought the scene at Mount Doom, where Gollum is fighting an invisible Frodo, was comical. It ruined such an important moment for me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Flame_of_Udun
Can't wait for the extended cut. Most of the problems will surely be fixed.
Again - we shouldn't have to wait until the Extended Edition for things to be fixed. There shouldn't have been any "problems" in the theatrical version that needs to be fixed. The Extended Edition should only be containing extra scenes - not fixing problems. :rolleyes:

[Nurvingiel]

Yes. I think I said that somewhere too, and I'm not just copying you JD. :D

If they needed the extended edition's scenes to fix something, then that scene should be in the theatrical versions that everyone gets to see. If they end up being too long, either delete Arwen and Elrond's pointless, non-plot advancing, and boring extra scenes, or put a bathroom break in the middle.

I'm not ranting at you here Flame_of_Udun, I don't blame you all for wanting the extended edition to be better. Edit: or thinking that it might be.

The reason I'm ranting about extra scenes, and this is a kicker, is because Jackson did not film the scouring of the Shire! After all the extra junk he added, he (apparently) made two awful claims: that there wasn't enough time (addressed above), and that he didn't like that part of the book.

To the latter I say, if you don't like all of the book you're adapting, then write your own darned plot.

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Flame_of_Udun

The supposed multiple endings that the critics are griping about is fine. I saw absolutely no problems with it. People need to learn a little patience. I think they are used to the typical Hollywood crap where everything is happy, and you rush right out of the theater after the payoff.
Can't wait for the extended cut. Most of the problems will surely be fixed.

I agree, FlameofUdun, the ending is fine. Its length is suitable to the length of the whole three movies, and is needed.

It's too bad the movie couldn't all fit into the theatrical version, but it's rushed enough as is-- so that leaves us needing the EE, to expand on important parts that weren't included.

Don't shoot me, but it seems to me the Scouring of the Shire would be merely anticlimactic if it had been added. It's long and complex enough to need another hour, which is clearly impossible. And people would really be complaining that the ending was too long then!

[Flame_of_Udun]

I agree that it was not really possible to include the scouring. But I also understand that the scouring was never a favorite part of the book for me, so I could be a little biased. Perhaps it could have been added on the dvd as a sort of appendix, but of course, it was never filmed, so it matters little.

With the scouring, I understand that it completes the story arc for the hobbits and is very important to the theme of the books, but it never really sat well with me, for some reason. I always liked the hobbits showing up and bringing order back to the Shire, but my dislike is probably because of Saruman - I had a very hard time believing that a maia could be reduced to such idiocy and weakness, even if he had been expelled from the order of wizards. The name "Sharkey" seemed too weird for me, and out of place in the book, especially in comparison with the other typical names. I think maybe, that in the movie, audiences would not have understood how he had fallen so far either. Just my opinion...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Flame_of_Udun
I agree that it was not really possible to include the scouring. But I also understand that the scouring was never a favorite part of the book for me, so I could be a little biased. Perhaps it could have been added on the dvd as a sort of appendix, but of course, it was never filmed, so it matters little.

With the scouring, I understand that it completes the story arc for the hobbits and is very important to the theme of the books, but it never really sat well with me, for some reason. I always liked the hobbits showing up and bringing order back to the Shire, but my dislike is probably because of Saruman - I had a very hard time believing that a maia could be reduced to such idiocy and weakness, even if he had been expelled from the order of wizards. The name "Sharkey" seemed too weird for me, and out of place in the book, especially in comparison with the other typical names. I think maybe, that in the movie, audiences would not have understood how he had fallen so far either. Just my opinion...

I like the Scouring, however I have always had a problem with it. By that I mean this. It is clear that a few of the "wise" know that something is going on in the Shire. When I read the books it always seems like Galadriel and Gandalf know that something has happened in the shire. With that said, I always thought it was crappy that they just threw the hobbits to the fire to solve their own problems, even after they just saved Middle Earth. I also found it hard to believe that Aragorn and Eomer didn't send people with them as an escort in addition to the Elves and Gandalf who travelled with them. I just found those little things hard to swallow for me, ya know?

It's like a double edged sword for me, because I like it and yet had those concerns at the same time...