Why wasnt the ring distroyed @ end of 2nd age

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I see you also find it funny how Elrond does nothing about the Ring - even though HE knows that it's destruction is the only way to destroy Sauron (double ) :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bacchus
How can anyone possibly have a problem with this? It's basically what happenned. Cirdan and Elrond counselled Isildur to destroy the Ring, and he refused. Are we now blaming Jackson for Tolkien's plot?


The above quotes were from the Movie forum Scouring of the Shire... (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9607&pagenumber=2)

My questions though is only concerned with the books.

Why did Elrond and/or Cirdan not destroy the ring in the volcano of Mordor?

I know that Isildur did not want to destroy the ring, but if Elrond and Cirdan knew that the ring needed to be destroyed, then why did they let Isildur leave with the ring?

Any thoughts or constructive comments?

P.S.
Edited to include link to where quotes were pulled from and better explain my question.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
Any thoughts or constructive comments? The first comment, from JD, was actually from the movie forum. We were referring to Jackson's portrayal of this scene, so it's out of place in the book forum.

From the book...
I always got the impression that it was a longer time period than just at the battle.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
The first comment, from JD, was actually from the movie forum. We were referring to Jackson's portrayal of this scene, so it's out of place in the book forum.

From the book...
I always got the impression that it was a longer time period than just at the battle.

I apologize if the movie was different from the book in this instance. I have not read all of The Silmarillion and I do not remember this being discussed in any detail in LOTR.

I am curious from the book perspective.

When the ring was cut from Sauron's hand, was Isildur alone?
If no, who else was there with Isildur?

If Elrond and/or Cirdan were there then my question stands.

Why did Elrond and/or Cirdan not destroy the ring in the volcano of Mordor?
(aside from the obvious, "That is how JRRT wrote it. :) )

[Nurvingiel]

It's a great question, only the quote was out of place. I pointed it out because JD and I are definitely not critical of Tolkien's plot.
:)

[brownjenkins]

i don't know if tolkien ever goes into the specifics of the events after sauron was slain... it was my impression that it was a discussion on the field of battle, then again, that battle was on the slopes of oroduin, so the cracks of doom were close enough

this is somewhat of a spoiler for those who have not read all of LoTR

it has always been my opinion that it is highly unlikely that anyone could willingly destroy the ring... so many powerful people shun away from it throughout the series (gandalf, elrond, galadriel) that i tend to think that it's power was so strong that one standing at the cracks of doom could not muster the will to give it a toss, except maybe good old Tom B =)... thus it had to end the way it did... if this wasn't the case, one would think that gandalf could have just grabbed one of his eagle friends, flew over mount doom, dropped the ring, and that would be that... elrond and cirdan probably realized this and assumed the best they could do was give their advice to isildur


of course the is just my interpretation of things

[mithrand1r]

brownjenkins,

It is an interesting theory.

If that is the case, then why should the fellowship try to destroy the ring if they would be unable to willingly throw the ring in the cracks of doom?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i don't know if tolkien ever goes into the specifics of the events after sauron was slain... it was my impression that it was a discussion on the field of battle
______________________________________
Yes. The account is by Elrond during the Council:"Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would nor listen to our counsel. 'This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother,' he said"

Not as improbable as it seems, for a small knot of fighters on a field to be (effectively) isolated and on their own in the ebb and flow of a medieval type battle.

[Dúnedain]

Here is another version of Isildur and the ring as well:

The Silmarillion: Of the Rings or Power and the Third Age. p.295;

The Ruling Ring passed out of knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only a shadow of malice in the wilderness. Bu Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.

So, it is safe to say that they are right near Mount Doom. It could also even be that they are in the chasm as it says "cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand". That could mean they are near Orodruin or it could also mean they are near the fire of Orodruin, such as them being in the chasm and the fire being "nigh at hand". That is really left up to interpretation, but either way they are still right there...

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Here is another version of Isildur and the ring as well:

============================

The Silmarillion: Of the Rings or Power and the Third Age. p.295;

The Ruling Ring passed out of knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only a shadow of malice in the wilderness. Bu Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.

============================

So, it is safe to say that they are right near Mount Doom. It could also even be that they are in the chasm as it says "cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand". That could mean they are near Orodruin or it could also mean they are near the fire of Orodruin, such as them being in the chasm and the fire being "nigh at hand". That is really left up to interpretation, but either way they are still right there...

Dúnedain,

Thanks for the additional quote.

Why do you think that Elrond and Cirdan did not do anything (besides counseling) to have Isildur throw the Ring into the Cracks of doom?

Could they have been unaware of the peril of the Ring?

Could the Ring have ensnared Isildur so quickly under its spell?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
Dúnedain,

Thanks for the additional quote.

Why do you think that Elrond and Cirdan did not do anything (besides counseling) to have Isildur throw the Ring into the Cracks of doom?

Could they have been unaware of the peril of the Ring?

Could the Ring have ensnared Isildur so quickly under its spell?

Well, I am not sure really, but I think they realized that it had to be a choice that was done by Isildur, you know the whole free will thing, as Tolkien wrote so much into his characters. I also think though that there could be a few other things involved with it. The fact that they knew the World as they knew it would diminish and they would go into the West before they truly wanted to. By the Ring not being destroyed then, they are in Middle Earth for another 3,000+ years. On the contrary though, I am sure they would have been ready to sacrifice to be rid of the evil that Sauron was always so good at mustering. I think maybe it was this internal conflict that kept them from being hardnosed and taking it from Isildur themselves. Plus, Tolkien does write that "Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan", so for all we know maybe they actually fought over it. We just don't know though...

[brownjenkins]

mithrand1rIf that is the case, then why should the fellowship try to destroy the ring if they would be unable to willingly throw the ring in the cracks of doom?

i think it was related to the ability of elrond and gandalf to predict the future somewhat... not to say that they specifically knew what was to happen in the end, but they had feelings about what choices would be the right ones to take to achieve their desired end... evidenced by gandalf's statements that gollum might have a role to play before the end

i think elrond and cirdan, being ringbearers themselves, must have been aware of the ring

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by brownjenkins


i think it was related to the ability of elrond and gandalf to predict the future somewhat... not to say that they specifically knew what was to happen in the end, but they had feelings about what choices would be the right ones to take to achieve their desired end... evidenced by gandalf's statements that gollum might have a role to play before the end

i think elrond and cirdan, being ringbearers themselves, must have been aware of the ring

I thought about what you said. I think it may be better to think that their knowledge and wisdom enabled them to make better educated guesses in cases where they lacked absolute knowledge and gave them better insight in the nature of others.

Are you saying that because Elrond and Cirdan were ringbearers themselves, they must have been aware of the ring. Wouldn't that only want to encourage them to do more to make sure the ring was unmade in the cracks of doom?

It may be as the Dúnedain reasons: wanting to stay in ME, but I find this hard to believe.

I think it is more likely that they were unwilling to kill/seriously injure Isildur to destroy the ring. (This may have been the only way to get ring from Isildur.) Maybe Elrond and Cirdan were unaware of the extent of the vast power of the ring on others. They may have thought that ring without Sauron, while still dangerous, could be "safely" handled by Isildur.

If someone has access to Letters/HOME or other Tolkien matterial that may clear up this point, it would be appreciated.

[cassiopeia]

All I could find in the Letters was this passage:

Isildur claims the Ring as his own, as 'the Weregild of his father', and refuses to cast it into the fire nearby.

I don't think it's necessary to spoiler out parts from the book in this forum. If you haven't read the book, then why are you here? :)

[brownjenkins]

you may be right... my main point was that the power of the ring was so strong, that once in hand, no individual, no matter how strong of will, could willingly destroy it (much like frodo's reaction when gandalf threw the ring in his fireplace)

i think in some way elrond, cirdan and gandalf may have realized this... of course one might say, then why send frodo, or why not at least warn him? i think this was much like the reason gandalf did not go into too much detail about the ringwraiths to frodo in the beginning... he didn't want to scare frodo off... and he had that sixth sense that it was the right thing to do

it just seems impossible to me that gandalf and elrond really believed that frodo would just get to mount doom and toss the ring in (especially after the fireplace incident)... so this is my attempt at trying to explain their logic, and it ties in with the second age question

on the other part, i was answering your question "Could they have been unaware of the peril of the Ring?"... no, because i am sure Celebrimbor told at least one, if not both of them about the ruling ring

[brownjenkins]

I don't think it's necessary to spoiler out parts from the book in this forum. If you haven't read the book, then why are you here?

i wasn't sure so i was playing it safe... but i would rather not since it is kind of annoying :)

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
I think it is more likely that they were unwilling to kill/seriously injure Isildur to destroy the ring. (This may have been the only way to get ring from Isildur.) Maybe Elrond and Cirdan were unaware of the extent of the vast power of the ring on others. They may have thought that ring without Sauron, while still dangerous, could be "safely" handled by Isildur.

If someone has access to Letters/HOME or other Tolkien matterial that may clear up this point, it would be appreciated.
If Elrond and Cirdan had wanted to follow up the Last Alliance with an immediate war between the Elves and the Numenoreans, I can think of no better way to go about it than to attack Isildur to try to take the Ring. And what guarantees do we have that, upon doing so, one of them could actually have destroyed it? It seems likely to me that such an action would have been quite similar in effect upon one of the Elves as Smeagol's later murder of Deagol. Compound that with the inevitable retaliatory attacks that would come from Elendur and company, and such an attempt would likely have been far worse than actual events.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Bacchus
If Elrond and Cirdan had wanted to follow up the Last Alliance with an immediate war between the Elves and the Numenoreans, I can think of no better way to go about it than to attack Isildur to try to take the Ring. And what guarantees do we have that, upon doing so, one of them could actually have destroyed it? It seems likely to me that such an action would have been quite similar in effect upon one of the Elves as Smeagol's later murder of Deagol. Compound that with the inevitable retaliatory attacks that would come from Elendur and company, and such an attempt would likely have been far worse than actual events.

Interesting thought, that I did not consider. (I guess that happens when having a narrow focus on the immediate issue and failing to consider the larger implications of that issue (killing/seriously injure Isildur to destroy the ring.)

This is part of the fun in discussing issues with other people. (One can gain different insights/perspcectives on many issues/problems.) :)

[Valandil]

In addition, I imagine Elrond and Cirdan thought that Sauron had just been utterly defeated. It's unlikely IMO that they thought he'd be coming back even if the Ring was left undestroyed. They may have had a premonition that destroying it was the better thing to do, but couldn't quite put their finger on it (pun not intended)...

When Isildur took decisive action (and he HAD just lost his father), they raised some objections but were understandably hesitant to press them too hard. Sauron was gone, his minions were defeated, the long war was over at last! If the loose ends aren't all wrapped up perfectly - well, they never are. Time to go home and rebuild a life.

3,000 years later, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, they may have thought otherwise... but it was of course too late.

The chance of Frodo being unable to actually toss the Ring INTO the fire of Mount Doom must have seemed a necessary risk to take. They had nothing else... just a fool's hope.

[Nurvingiel]

I think Cirdan and Elrond could not have stopped Isildur keeping the Ring. They knew, at least subconsciously, that if they took the Ring from Isildur with the intent of destroying it, they would be corrupted. A powerful Elf-lord is not a good person to have wielding the One Ring.
I think they realized this, so their only option was to convince him to destroy it himself. They could not force Isildur without being corrupted.

[Twista]

What if Isildor took a little tumble over the edge of the walkway? or would this end the line of kings and evermore destroy the earth anyway? lol. Was his son born when Sauron just got defeated?

[Bacchus]

Isildur had four sons. Three of them were adults who fought in the Last Alliance and died at the Gladden Fields (where the Ring was lost in TA 2). His fourth son, Valandil, was at Rivendell and became King of Arnor

[Cirdan]

Well, we were all ragged out from a long seige and really just wanted a shower. Islidur promised we'd come back in the morning but we got distracted and sort of forgot. Then later he said he must have left it in his other hauberk. We went back later and I swear he must have switched the ring or something becuase he threw something in but did it real fast so we couldn't see; By that time it was getting late and we were all ready to go home.

[Thorin II]

I doubt Elrond and Cirdan realized the full extent of the danger in failing to destroy the Ring. Surely, they knew it was evil, but I don't think anyone realized Sauron would last as long as the Ring was around. In the Hobbit, the White Council removed the Necromancer from Mirkwood without realizing it was Sauron until afterwords. My guess is that they tried to convince Isildur to destroy the ring because they knew it would continue to bring bad things about. They would've done more (including an attack, perhaps) if they'd known Sauron would return.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Isildur had four sons. Three of them were adults who fought in the Last Alliance and died at the Gladden Fields (where the Ring was lost in TA 2). His fourth son, Valandil, was at Rivendell and became King of Arnor

THANK you!:D But don't forget to mention that this also made me 'High King of all the Dunedain in Middle Earth'... Gondor was technically under my overlordship!;)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Thorin II
I doubt Elrond and Cirdan realized the full extent of the danger in failing to destroy the Ring. Surely, they knew it was evil, but I don't think anyone realized Sauron would last as long as the Ring was around. In the Hobbit, the White Council removed the Necromancer from Mirkwood without realizing it was Sauron until afterwords. My guess is that they tried to convince Isildur to destroy the ring because they knew it would continue to bring bad things about. They would've done more (including an attack, perhaps) if they'd known Sauron would return.

I disagree. Surely Elrond and Cirdan would know of the power of the Ring and that it needed to be destroyed. Think about it, Elrond was the keeper of one of the Elven rings of power, and the master of lore. If they didn't think it was that big of a deal, then they wouldn't have told him to cast it into the fire. The reason, in my opinion, that they didn't attack him is because they couldn't force him to do as they wished. Besides, would you attack a great friend of yours that has fought along side you for almost 10 years straight of battle? In addition, if they attacked him, would they be able to part with the ring as well? This is what they knew, they knew it would have to be a choice of free will to do so...

[Thorin II]

I agree with your reasoning on why Elrond and Cirdan would hesitate to attack Isildur, but I disagree that they realized Sauron could not be destroyed while the Ring existed. They were loremasters and they had their own rings of power, but that wouldn't mean they would know everything about the One Ring. The only bearers of rings of power that had died the original Dwarf lords. At least some of those rings still existed (in Sauron's possession), but the Dwarf lords were gone. I find it entirely plausible that Elrond and Cirdan were uncertain as to whether Sauron could ever return. If they knew otherwise, I don't think they would've allowed the One Ring to disappear from history they way it did. Even if they wouldn't take it from Isildur, they would've kept a closer eye on it if they knew it absolutely had to be destroyed. After all, for almost an Age, it sat in the same river bed where Isildur was killed. If the wise had known the full ramifications of the Ring surviving, I think someone would've found it shortly after Isildur died. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they did much searching right after the Ring was lost.

[brownjenkins]

sauron's body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor, yet he was able to recorporate himself due to the ring... if it can be assumed that elrond and cirdan knew this, then they should have expected it to happen again

one thing, somewhat off-topic that always bothered me about this... why was sauron able to comeback so quickly after the numenor death (less than 100 years), yet it took so much longer the second time? i'd have to assume that he actually was back much much earlier in the third age, but just didn't bother to show himself for quite some time

[Thorin II]

brownjenkins - You make a good point about Sauron returning at the end of the Second Age. I hadn't thought about that.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
sauron's body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor, yet he was able to recorporate himself due to the ring... if it can be assumed that elrond and cirdan knew this, then they should have expected it to happen again

one thing, somewhat off-topic that always bothered me about this... why was sauron able to comeback so quickly after the numenor death (less than 100 years), yet it took so much longer the second time? i'd have to assume that he actually was back much much earlier in the third age, but just didn't bother to show himself for quite some time
The simple answer to this lies in the fact that Sauron had possession of the Ring following the Downfall. Add to this the speculation that reembodiment became harder with repetition, and I don't see a problem with the longer timespan the second time around.

[Earniel]

In 20/20 hindsight it's easy to say Cirdan and Elrond should have made Isildur destroy the Ring. I think that in the situation after the battle, the re-emergence of Sauron was deemed unlikely due to the fact that he no longer possessed the Ring.

I don't think anyone at that time really understood the true, corruptable nature of the One Ring and the influence it had on its bearer.

And where could the thing have been more safe than in the hands of one of Sauron's greatest enemies, Elendil's son?

I remember there was a thread a while ago about what you would have done if you were Cirdan or Elrond at the time Isildur claimed the Ring but I'm too lazy to search it.

[brownjenkins]

good point Bacchus... do you remember if it was ever stated if sauron left the ring at barad-dur or not? i know i've seen something on this, but don't remember the source

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
good point Bacchus... do you remember if it was ever stated if sauron left the ring at barad-dur or not? i know i've seen something on this, but don't remember the source

I think I remember that his disembodied spirit returned to Barad-dur and took up the Ring. If he had it on him when Numenor was destroyed... I doubt his disembodied spirit could have brought it up from the depths. So I suspect he left it in the tower when he went out to 'humble himself' before Ar-Pharazon. I'll have to check where we get that version of the account - whether 'Akallabeth' in 'Silmarillion' - or if it's one of the stories in UT.

[azalea]

Hmm, I think there's a Letter that discusses the controversy regarding how the disembodied spirit could carry the Ring back, that states something along the lines of "considering that it was the object into which he had poured so much of his power, it is therefore not unreasonable to think that he could have carried it back" -- something like that.

[Bacchus]

Yep, Azalea, that's my recollection as well.

The problem is that the different stories are a bit ambiguously worded. Akallabeth says of Sauron "...his spirit arose...and came back...to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-Dur...."

Of The Rings of Power ironically doesn't directly mention the Ring in it's equivalent passage, "But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle Earth, seeking a home. There he found that the power of Gil-Galad had grown great.

These passages seem to imply that the Ring did not go to Numenor. But look at this passage from Letter 211:

Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Numenoreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazon knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar Pharazon was not in communication with them....)

Later in the same letter

Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his powr of dominating minds now largely depended

...

Sauron was of course 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Numenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Elendil and Gil galad before his new dominion was fully established

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I disagree. Surely Elrond and Cirdan would know of the power of the Ring and that it needed to be destroyed. Think about it, Elrond was the keeper of one of the Elven rings of power, and the master of lore. If they didn't think it was that big of a deal, then they wouldn't have told him to cast it into the fire. The reason, in my opinion, that they didn't attack him is because they couldn't force him to do as they wished. Besides, would you attack a great friend of yours that has fought along side you for almost 10 years straight of battle? In addition, if they attacked him, would they be able to part with the ring as well? This is what they knew, they knew it would have to be a choice of free will to do so... It is unknown when Elrond took Vilya from Gil-Galad. It seems reasonable to me that he might have taken it from Gil-Galad's body after he was killed by Sauron, so he would have had little experience with being a Ringbearer. CÃ*rdan did, but he wasn't into it all that much, since he actually gave his Ring to Gandalf. I definitely agree that it would have been an incredibly evil thing for Elrond and CÃ*rdan to do, to attack a comrade-in-arms who was also the the new King. It would not be at all in their characters, as I read them. No, I suspect that they planned to wait and argue Isildur out of it when he got older and wiser, but he was killed too soon.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
It is unknown when Elrond took Vilya from Gil-Galad. It seems reasonable to me that he might have taken it from Gil-Galad's body after he was killed by Sauron, so he would have had little experience with being a Ringbearer. CÃ*rdan did, but he wasn't into it all that much, since he actually gave his Ring to Gandalf. I definitely agree that it would have been an incredibly evil thing for Elrond and CÃ*rdan to do, to attack a comrade-in-arms who was also the the new King. It would not be at all in their characters, as I read them. No, I suspect that they planned to wait and argue Isildur out of it when he got older and wiser, but he was killed too soon.

Actually Gil-galad passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell, which was in the 2nd age 1697...

And Gandalf wasn't in Middle Earth for another 1000 years after this time, so Cirdan still had his ring...

[Attalus]

All right, but the Elven rings weren't being used because of the still-active One Ring, which would have controlled, or at least made their thoughts available to Sauron. So neither could have been an experienced Ringbearer.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Actually Gil-galad passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell, which was in the 2nd age 1697...

And Gandalf wasn't in Middle Earth for another 1000 years after this time, so Cirdan still had his ring...

Dunedain, I think what Attalus was saying is that because Cirdan later gave his ring to Gandalf, it may indicate that he wasn't ever especially excited about being a ringbearer.

I vaguely remember that about when Elrond got his ring... when did Cirdan get his? Is it possible that Gil-galad still had possession (even if it was left behind at Lindon) and that Cirdan took charge of it when he went back home?

I'm trying to remember the paths the Elven rings took after Celebrimbor became aware that Sauron had made the One Ring... is it outlined in "Celeborn and Galadriel" in UT? If I recall, it seems like Celebrimbor took them to Galadriel in Lorien... but Tolkien later decided that Galadriel and Celeborn were not ruling in Lorien until much, much later (say about 3700 years +/-) and I'm not sure if he ever got around to adjusting this part of the story to fit. What was the path each of the three took to its eventual keeper... does anyone remember offhand?