Savvy Orc?

[Kirinki54]

Did Grishnák know about the Ring?

[Rosie Gamgee]

I get the impression from reading the books that he did. Probably was sneaking around Orthanc when Saruman was giving Sauron a ring on the palantir. :D
He obviously tried to make it seem like he didn't know about it, but there's all those things like 'shaking uncontrolably' and 'twitching' and stuff like that which seems to indicate he knew (or thought he knew) what they had and wanted it.

p.s. I always liked that line "I'm going to cut you into little quivering strips.." (or something like that- kinda funny)

[Nurvingiel]

Possibly he knew the Hobbits were carrying something valuable/powerful, but he didn't know exactly what it was.

[Ilúvatar]

No, Grishnákh was the leader of the Orcs from Mordor, he had nothing to do with Isengard or Orthanc. He had most likely heard about Gollum or had actually seen him being tortured in Mordor. He knew Gollum at any rate and therefore had to have known about the Ring.


...Cold fear was in Pippin's heart, yet at the same time he was wondering what use he could make of Grishnákh's desire.

"I don't think you will find it that way," he whispered. "It isn't easy to find."

"Find it?" said Groshnákh: his fingers stopped crawling and gripped Pippin's shoulder. "Find what? What are you talking about, little one?"

For a moment Pippin was silent. Then suddenly in the darkness he made a noise in his throat: gollum, gollum. "Nothing, my precious," he added.

The hobbits felt Grishnákh's fingers twitch. "O ho!" hissed the goblin softly. "That's what he means, is it? O ho! Very ve-ry dangerous, my little ones."


He could have learned about the the Ring through some water cooler gossip in Mordor as he was guarding the Black Gate. :D More likely, since he was the leader of the Orcs there, he was probably pretty high up in rank and responsiblity. He could have very well have been one of the torturers for Gollum or maybe a guard for Gollum. As I said, it seems quite obvious at any rate he knew about Gollum, what Sauron was interrogating him for and what Sauron was searching for.

I have always felt that Grishnákh was a spy for Sauron.

[The Gaffer]

I think you're right in that he knew some detail about Gollum.

IIRC, it's spelled out explicitly that his troop were Sauron's spies. I'm thinking in particular of the crucial battle between the Rohirrim and the orcs at the eaves of Fangorn. The text goes something like (apologies, I can't remember exactly) "from that battle no report came to Isengard or Barad-dur, but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven and was seen by many eyes."

It's essential to the plot, and to the strategy Gandalf and Aragorn developed, that both enemies knew there were hobbit prisoners, that they might have the Ring, and therefore that Theoden, Aragorn or even Saruman (from Sauron's perspective) might have taken possession of it.

Suddenly, Legolas shooting the Winged Beastie down by the river seems even more important. Remember how Grishnakh argued with Ugluk about whether the Nazgul were all they were cracked up to be? What if it had been present at the battle...

Such a great story.:D

[Attalus]

So this is where everyone from the Other Forum is hanging out. :D I agree with all that say that Grishnákh would have had to have been an important Orc to be entrusted with such an important mission, though doubtless Sauron the Base Master of Deceit made sure that he knew no more than was needful. As Gandalf says, Orcs are not trusty servants.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I've always assumed Grisnakh was trying to take the Ring for himself, but from the above posts I'm not so sure. Is there any definitive evidence (HOME?) as to what he intended if he got the Ring? Keep it or take it to Sauron.

Also, Sauron seems to have been much more sloppy about guarding the Ring until it got into his possession then Saruman. The wizard wouldn't tell his boys precisely what he wanted or allow them to search any hobbits (PJ got that right:) ). Perhaps JRRT envisioned a flying nazgul airfreighting it to Mordor. But that would also have been dangerous (i. e. Leggy's archery or Great Eagles chancing by [if it would indeed be by chance].

[Bacchus]

Grishnakh's reaction to Merry and Pippin's baiting seems to suggest quite strongly that he knew about the Ring. What is a more interesting question, IMO, is why/how did he have such knowledge, and was Sauron aware that he had it? It was clearly not general knowledge (nor was it intended to be) among Orc commanders as seen in the instructions given to Shagrat regarding trinkets, rings, etc.

If we assume that Sauron knew that Grishnakh knew, then G becomes a far more important and trusted spy than previously thought. But is this feasible? I have a hard time imagining Sauron entrusting such a mission to any Orc, no matter how senior.

Or is grishnakh clever enough to learn of the Ring (presumably through some interaction with Gollum, as he connects the two) but to conceal this knowledge in the interest of self preservation? under this scenario, it seems more likely that G would have attempted to keep the Ring for himself. Sauron doesn't strike me as the type to show a lot of gratitude.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree Bacchus and Ilúvatar. I bet that Grishnakh would have tried to keep the Ring for himself, but as soon as he tried to use it, Sauron would send the Nazgul to hunt him down and kill him. He has more chance of getting the Ring if it's in the hands of a well trained orc then in the hands of someone who will try to destroy or hide it.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
IIRC, it's spelled out explicitly that his troop were Sauron's spies. I'm thinking in particular of the crucial battle between the Rohirrim and the orcs at the eaves of Fangorn. The text goes something like (apologies, I can't remember exactly) "from that battle no report came to Isengard or Barad-dur, but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven and was seen by many eyes."
I don't think that shows they were spies in the way I was referring to. I think Grishnákh was there to keep an eye on Saruman and his orcs and report back to Mordor. Of course all that lines indicates, is that neither Isengard nor Mordor knew what became of them.


So ended the raid, and no news of it came ever back either to Mordor or to Isengard; but the smoke of the burning rose high to the heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Grishnakh's reaction to Merry and Pippin's baiting seems to suggest quite strongly that he knew about the Ring. What is a more interesting question, IMO, is why/how did he have such knowledge, and was Sauron aware that he had it? It was clearly not general knowledge (nor was it intended to be) among Orc commanders as seen in the instructions given to Shagrat regarding trinkets, rings, etc.

If we assume that Sauron knew that Grishnakh knew, then G becomes a far more important and trusted spy than previously thought. But is this feasible? I have a hard time imagining Sauron entrusting such a mission to any Orc, no matter how senior.

Or is grishnakh clever enough to learn of the Ring (presumably through some interaction with Gollum, as he connects the two) but to conceal this knowledge in the interest of self preservation? under this scenario, it seems more likely that G would have attempted to keep the Ring for himself. Sauron doesn't strike me as the type to show a lot of gratitude.
I think Grishnákh just knew of the Ring, he knew about hobbits (most likely from Gollum) and what Sauron was searching for and assumed that Pippin or Merry had it. I think the sole purpose of Grishnákh was just to keep an eye on the Isengarders for Mordor. I do NOT think that Sauron entrusted him with he knowledge of the Ring or anything else.

It is interesing though to think what would have happened if it had successfully gotten to Isengard. Would Sauron have been able to get the Ring from Saruman or would he have been cast down and replaced. Sauron was using Saruman, but I don't think he wanted Saruman to even come close to getting the Ring. This is assuming of course, that Pippin or Merry were actually carrying it. Now Sauron of course has no idea that Hobbits were captured, not until Pippin looks into the PalantÃ*r.


'...Then he came. He did no speak so that I coudl hear words. He just looked, and I understood.

'"So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"

'I did not answer. He siad: "Who are you?" I still did not answer, but it hurt me horribly; and he pressed me, so I said: "A hobbit."

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"'


So Sauron thought that Saruman had gotten the Ring and had no idea of what the purpose of the orcs were as they traveled back to Isengard. Therefore, I do not think that he put Grishnákh there for any other purpose than to keep an eye on the Isengarders.

Okay, too much thinking. But it is interesting anyway.

[Attalus]

I don't think Sauron was referring to the Ring by "this dainty;" I associate it with Gandalf's comment that he wanted Pippin, to deal with in Barad-dûr, slowly. Gandalf elsewhere says that Isengard could not fight Mordor, unless Saruman had the Ring, implying that he could have if he did. Sauron doubtless knew that. Wouldn't he have wanted to talk to Saruman immediately if he really thought that he had possession of the Ruling Ring? And if he thought that he was about to be assailed by "some great one, wielding the Ring," would he have been so amused? IMHO, he would not. He would have been angry and fearful, not wanting to waste time gloating on poor Pip.

[Ilúvatar]

I disagree, I think that he was referring to the Ring when he said "this dainty". He knew that a hobbit had the ring and he assumed that Pippin must be that hobbit. If that was the case, then he must have also assumed that Saruman now had the Ring or else maybe it was just that he now knew that Saruman was trying to get the Ring for himself. It might have been a way for him to tell Saruman - "I now know what you are trying to do, and you wil pay."

I see your points, I just don't think that Sauron was referring to Pippin.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tend to agree with Attalus. While Pippin's description of his encounter with Sauron is open to either interpretation, I think Gandalf's comments afterwards indicate Sauron didn't mean the "it" was the Ring.
You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time. If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

But I must admit, before rereading the above quote I was almost convinced Sauron was referring to the Ring when he saidTell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once.

[Ilúvatar]

Maybe we should discuss the PalantÃ*r in a new thread.

[Anadriewen]

I want to say something about this threads topic if thats ok with everyone :D I think that Grishnakh thought that Merry or Pippin had something improtant, but not necassarily the ring.

[Nurvingiel]

Of course it's ok! It's always ok to post your (on-topic) ideas in a thread. :)

That is one theory here, that I agree with.

Another valid one is that he actually knew about the Ring, and thought they had it.

However, wouldn't he have been a little more crazy about Sauron's most prized possession? He was eager to get his hands on whatever he thought Merry and Pippin had, I just think he would have been more much eager if he thought it was the Ring.

[Anadriewen]

I can't have said it better myself:)