Free Will and Turin Turambar

[Tuor of Gondolin]

1---I tried a search for this topic but I found nothing specific to the Curse of Morgoth on Turin and Nienor, so hopefully this topic isn't repetitive and is of interest.
2---If it interferes with or preempts the Silmarillion chapter project i imagine it could be shelved.
But, barring that:
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The ability of curses to occasionally seem to negate free will in Middle-earth (particularly in the First Age) seem to be an anomaly in a basic theme of JRRT's in his legendarium. While the Curse of Mandos was retributive justice for the Noldor's, especially Feanor's, kinslaying, in the case of Hurin, and even more Turin, Morgoth's Curse seems to make supposedly free wills hapless and helpless. Is there a rationale for this?
Paul H. Kocher, for one, in his 1980 book A Reader's Guide to The Silmarillion seems to have no answer.

In reflecting upon this grim tragedy of incest and suicide the reader is likely to ask sooner or later whether it is consistent with the doctrine underlying the whole of The Silmarillion, that Elves and Men have been created with wills free to choose between right and wrong.This is to ask whether Morgoth's curse upon Hurin and his children succeeded, and this in turn is to ask whether Morgoth or Iluvatar by his Providence governed the course of their lives.
We know the answers in general. Tolkien has been repeating them time and again from the Music of the Ainur on. In the foregoing tale, however, Iluvatar has permitted Glaurung to deceive and paralyze the will of Turin from the time midway through the story, when the Dragon first encounters him at the sack of Nargothrond, until Turin kills him just before the final catastrophe. And in his sister Nienor the paralysis goes so deep as to reduce her mentally to a little child, without memory, intelligence, or will. Clearly during these hypnotic trances neither brother nor sister is responsible for what is done.

(Kocher goes on to note Turin has free will before and after these events, but doesn't further address the seeming contradiction in the tale of free will/curses. Yes, Melkor was an extremely powerful Ainur, but is not free will a distinguishing feature of men, elves etc. from kelvar? And, also, why couldn't Melkor curse all his enemies and take over all Beleriand (except Doriath) with no trouble?

[Beor]

thats a good question, one that I am probably not qualifyed to answer, but ill take a shot. It seems like lots of times, stuff like this happens, such as with tuor and his doom to go to gondolin. Albiet that was a good thing, that the Gods foresaw, but that doesnt mean that bad stuff cant be preplanned. Maybe it was just that Turin was very unlucky, and Morgoth foresaw this. Or maybe it was Turins fate to kill the worm, but in due time, and Iluvatar, rather than take Turins will away and stay his hand in some cases, he just let it flow. Morgoth might have some magic to curse people with, but Turin and everyone involved made some bad choices too, full of pride. I really dont think that doom had much to do with it, except that Turin knew that he was screwed from the get go, so he made his decisions based on that, and it led ultimately to ruin. :( Plus, it makes a good story, like a great greek tragedy.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Beor
" Plus, it makes a good story, like a great greek tragedy."
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Yes, I think you're probably right. I didn't want to make the post too long. But, given JRRT knew various mythologies, and in Humphrey Carpenter's Biography it discusses his fascination with Sigurd and the dragon, maybe he just liked the tale so much he decided to build T.T.'s tale around it and not worry too much about total consistency.
Still, perhaps some theory could be imagined to make free will and curses consistent. For example, it has been obseved that the Nazgul fear of water can't really be explained (including by Tolkien in one of his Letters), but it seems to me one possible explanation is that it was a lingering effect of Ulmo, especially on great rivers like the Anduin and the Brandywine, that confused the Nazgul. Perhaps there is some similar rationale that could be postulated for curses in ME.

[Maedhros]

The ability of curses to occasionally seem to negate free will in Middle-earth (particularly in the First Age) seem to be an anomaly in a basic theme of JRRT's in his legendarium. While the Curse of Mandos was retributive justice for the Noldor's, especially Feanor's, kinslaying, in the case of Hurin, and even more Turin, Morgoth's Curse seems to make supposedly free wills hapless and helpless. Is there a rationale for this?
I don't think this is true.
The Doom of Mandos:
Published Sil:
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

1. The Valar fenced Valinórë against the revolting Ñoldor (mainly Fëanor and his sons) and those who followed them. The rest of the Ñoldor could have turned back but they didn't because they were prideful. I don't see lack of free will.
2. The wrath of the Valar was mainly against the House of Fëanor, and they had become already dispossesed because they had lost the kingship of the Ñoldor. This was before the kinslaying. No lack of free will either.
3. An elf who it's hröa is destroyed, should go to Mandos and then be rehoused. It's a natural thing for an elf. No lack of free will.
4. Those that remain in ME would fade, is a result of the nature of the Elves. They were not meant to remain in ME forever, Men were the ones who would inherit ME. That's the nature of them, not lack of free will.

Curse of Morgoth upon Húrin
UT: Narn
"You say it," said Morgoth. "I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
If you look at what happened in the story, it sure seems that Túrin and Nienor died in that way, but was the Curse truly fulfilled. I think there is a hole in it.
WoTJ: Wanderings of Húrin
So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stem was her face. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no sound and saw nothing, and he felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him, and he thought that he would sit there until he too died.
Why is it that Morwen never lost hope with Húrin. After all that happened, there was no reason for her to had hope, yet she did. Because Morwen never lost hope with Húrin, the despair part of the Curse of Morgoth didn't apply to Morwen who was part of the family of Húrin. A hole.

There are plenty of examples in the Narn that shows that Túrin actions were the result of his pride. An pride is not lack of free will. He could have returned with Beleg to Doriath, he could have not removed his helmet when facing the Foalókë (Glaurung), but he did. I don't blame the curse, I blame the character, he was responsible for his actions.

Plus, it makes a good story, like a great greek tragedy.
Yes it does, the resemblance with Oedipus Rex is astounding.

[Attalus]

I agree that Turin was cursed with bad luck, but his doom was brought about by his bad temper and his pride, neither of which was in Morgoth's control. I suspect that Morgoth's foreknowledge was behind his (revolting) speech. He was angry, he foresaw bad things in store, so he said that in order to take the credit, if that is the word.

[Eladar]

I agree with Maedhros' observation in regard to Morwen. Morgoth did have the power to 'curse' a person's life in that he could ensure bad things happened. Yet we are free to choose how we react to what happens around us. Morgoth is not Eru. He does not have a perfect perception of what will happen in the future. He can only guess what affect his actions will have upon another. In most cases, he would guess correctly, but not in all. But as any power hungry egotistical dictator, he believes he is in control. Therefore it would not be out of character for him to not only brag about what he is going to do, but also what the final outcome of his plan will be. That is why I don't give too much authority to his proven false statement:They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death

In short, free will does not mean that we can do anything in life. It simply means that we are free in our reaction. Turin chose to commit suicide, just as Morwen chose to continue the fight until she found Hurin again.

The story of Job is another good example of the same kind of free will that is demonstrated in Tolkien's world. We have no control over what happens to us in this world, but we do have control over how we react.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eladar
In short, free will does not mean that we can do anything in life. It simply means that we are free in our reaction. Turin chose to commit suicide, just as Morwen chose to continue the fight until she found Hurin again.

The story of Job is another good example of the same kind of free will that is demonstrated in Tolkien's world. We have no control over what happens to us in this world, but we do have control over how we react. Very well put, and I agree.

About the curse of Mandos: I see it not as a curse, but as a Doom and a Prophecy, the Prophecy of Mandos. It is what Mandos percieve what will happen to the Noldor if they continue with their rebelling. As Maedhros have already said, they were free to turn back and repent, but they chose not to.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Thanks. The above comments by all are quite helpful.
I suppose that's why one comes to the Silmarillion Forum for assistance from the Wise.

[Keith K]

What a fascinating observation Tuor of Gondolin! The first time I read about the House of Hurin it struck me as odd that these people could have their lives destroyed so easily. It didn't seem to fit the Middle Earth I was familiar with. But I never really took the time to fathom it out. I agree with Artanis that the Curse of Mandos is something wholly other than the Curse of Morgoth and Maedhros is correct in his arguments concerning the Mandos curse. There really is no single right answer when dealing with the metaphysical elements in play here (free will vs. destiny vs. free-agent intervention through curses etc.) . In the final analysis I think that you yourself have answered your own question and have logically solved the discrepencies:

But, given JRRT knew various mythologies, and in Humphrey Carpenter's Biography it discusses his fascination with Sigurd and the dragon, maybe he just liked the tale so much he decided to build T.T.'s tale around it and not worry too much about total consistency.

[brownjenkins]

i've always seen the curses and prophecies by the valar (and melkor) as rememberances from the creation when eru laid the unfolding of arda in front of them...

They saw a new World in the Void, and perceived its history, but only the history they had sung, or had listened to. Some things remained hidden from their understanding because only Ilúvatar knows everything.

as an example... ulmo acted on the part of arda's history he had payed the most attention to (appropriately concerning the sea) and left the armor for huor at vinyamar so events would eventually lead to the final battle with melkor

this does not mean that huor had no free will and was just a tool of ulmo... on the contrary, ulmo knew from watching the unfolding what free will choices huor would make and what parts he had to do to make sure they came about

i think melkor's curses acted in much the same way... he would most likely have paid attention to the parts of arda's history concerning domination and sorrow and thus knew the part to play to bring about what he desired

this also explains both sides lack of knowledge concerning one another... the valar would not have been part of the songs which led to the destruction of the trees and thus had no forewarning... the same can be said of melkor's ultimate defeat

interesting, mandos seems to have played the middle ground, since he sees much of the future... one could surmise from this that he played a part, or was at least paying attention to both the songs of eru and those of melkor (moreso than any other valar at least)

if you buy the above, you could almost make the argument that the ones lacking free will were the valar, since, unlike the common man or elf, they knew what their actions would lead to (for the most part) and still continued to follow them... i'd credit this to responsibility on the part of the valar and self-interest on the part of melkor

[Bacchus]

Turin, more than any other character in the mythos, fits the archetype of a tragic hero. Morgoth's curse, IMO, has far less to do with the tribulations he faced than does Turin's tragic flaw. Unsurpisingly, (this is Tolkien, after all) Turin's flaw, quite simply, is pride. This pride, coupled with his temper, is ultimately responsible for the vast majority of his difficulties, beginning with the death of Saeros, continuing through his refusal of Thingol's pardon, his establishment and the eventual fall of the freeholding on Amon Rudh, the fall of Nargothrond, and even his ill-fated marriage.

Similarly, Nienor's refusal to return to Doriath, culminating in her battle of wills with Glaurung, set her upon a similar path.

[Keith K]

I agree with you Bacchus, those themes have been central to Western literature since the Greeks.

[Attalus]

Darn it, it is too late, and I can't think. I'll post tomorrow. Good posts, though.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A strong case is made in posts above for the primacy of Turin's pride/arrogance over Morgoth's Curse in "blame" for his misfortunes. Indeed, the parallel fates of (ahem) Tuor and Turin illustrate the role of pride in their fates. Both had very tough childhoods, lost their parents, fought against oppressive enemies, and were raised and instructed by elves. But Tuor was more open to instruction and advice (would Turin have been daunted, swayed in his course even by Ulmo?). And there is that poignant moment when Tuor and Voronwe see the Blacksword heading north (not knowing who he is) as they head for Gondolin.

There would seem to be no inherent reason why a Turin/Finduilas union could not have matched that of Tuor/Idril Celebrindal's descendants in their crucial, positive effect on the history of Middle-earth, save for the "fatal flaw" in Turin's makeup. So was it fate, a curse, a fatal character flaw, choices of free wills that led to the T. T. tragedy? Hmm. seems like the tale of Turin Turambar is even more complex then I'd thought.

Perhaps one reason the tale resounds with readers is a theme which echoes in peoples lives: lost opportunities, what if I'd done that differently, etc. "Choices."

[Bacchus]

A few more thoughts-

I tend to doubt that even the physical presence of Ulmo would have swayed Turin away from a course he had set for himself. Recall that Ulmo sent messengers to Nargothrond warning against Turin's open warfare policies. Turin ignored them, and in fact treated them very scornfully.

It occurs to me that even Hurin falls prey somewhat to pride. His outburst near the gates of Gondolin following his release smacks of bitterness in light of his deeds in defense of Turgon, and gave Morgoth his first estimate of the general region of the Hidden City.

Finally, suicide is presented in Tokien as ultimately a prideful act (see also Denethor).

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Finally, suicide is presented in Tokien as ultimately a prideful act (see also Denethor). The Catholic doctrine (indeed, the orthodox Christian doctrine) is that suicide is the unpardonable one, the sin against the Holy Ghost: despair of any aid from the Paraclete. Of course, in JRRT's work, this becomes conflated with the "heathen" suicide, which could be an act of ultimate pride, not to say arrogance, as in Cato's case. One must not forget that the Incarnation had not yet occured in Middle-Earth. That is why Pride is represented so strongly in his suicides, methinks.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
There would seem to be no inherent reason why a Turin/Finduilas union could not have matched that of Tuor/Idril Celebrindal's descendants in their crucial, positive effect on the history of Middle-earth, save for the "fatal flaw" in Turin's makeup. Except that Túrin never loved Finduilas?

[Ruinel]

brownjerkins and Artanis are correct. The Valar had seen what will come in the music. What Mandos said was not a curse, but foresight. He had a clearer vision of what will come than the others.

[Wayfarer]

One thing that should be noted is that the nature of these curses is quite differeint.

Mandos's curse seems very much like a predictions- he /is/ the one that knows almost everything that will happen from the future, and he's saying "If you continue on this course the following things will happen..."

Morgoth, on the other hand, curses in a very different fashion. He /is/ the guy that's spread his power throughout the entire earth, and he says "Look, Hurin. I'm the most powerful single entity in this universe. Guess what? In the next couple of decades I'm going to do everything I can to make the people that you most love miserable." (You will notice, of course, that this is what Morgoth does. His servant, Glaurung, tormented Hurin's children, the men that served him were the very same ones that took over Hurin's holdings and disenherited Morwen. Those are the most obvious signs of his manipulations, but there are no doubt more subtle ways in which he brought about their doom.)

[Elemmírë]

*bump*

This is a really interesting topic, and it’s hard to make a call one way or the other.

While I don’t believe the curse exactly negated free will, I do believe that it had definite power and influence. One could argue that mere words, no matter by whom they are spoken, can have no power on their own, but then we would have to get into a discussion of the exact nature of power.

One could argue that magic and curses cannot hurt someone unless they believe in them. However, it is apparent that Turin did believe in Morgoth’s curse. I don’t see it as simply an “excuse” that Turin used to justify his many failures. Turin believed Morgoth’s words, and thus gave them power.

If Turin lived his life expecting to fail, then his failure was inevitable. While the curse did not negate his free will, it did affect his choices. In this way, the curse was in fact real.

you could almost make the argument that the ones lacking free will were the valar, since, unlike the common man or elf, they knew what their actions would lead to (for the most part) and still continued to follow them... i'd credit this to responsibility on the part of the valar and self-interest on the part of melkor

The Valar are not always the only ones who know to what their actions would lead. Where does this argument leave cases such as Finrod knowingly following Beren to his death?

Which makes me ask where foresight itself fits into this. I’d hate to switch the topic (yeah, right :evil: ), but does the mere existence of foresight preclude freewill?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

However, it is apparent that Turin did believe in Morgoth’s curse. I don’t see it as simply an “excuse” that Turin used to justify his many failures. Turin believed Morgoth’s words, and thus gave them power.
Yet Turin didn't know about Morgoth's curse until he found G.....(I forget his name!) when he told him!

[Elemmírë]

Yet Turin didn't know about Morgoth's curse until he found G.....(I forget his name!) when he told him!

Hey, TD.

It's Gwindor, BTW. And he says, "But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin."

To which Turin responds, "That I do believe."

Hm... evidence for my theory. ;) Thank you. :D

Anyway... the story is not even nearly over by the time Turin technically finds out about the curse. And I never said that Turin wasn't unlucky, stupid, or prideful... I think it all adds up, and am not willing to totally discount the curse.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But he only says he believes that not that he knew that.

I doubt he picked up the Thangorodrim Gazette! ;)

[Count Comfect]

I would say what many people seem to have been pointing at: there is something in Turin's makeup (hubris, pride, whatever name you want to call it) that means he would or will not change course no matter who tells him to, up to and including the Valar. So Morgoth's "curse" can also be seen as simply knowing what Turin will do (because if you don't change course you are very predictable) and using that to make his life as horrible as possible.

[Manveru]

thats all well and good that both Melkor and Mandos are Ainur have heard the music and so can "curse" when they want to, and i hate to bring this into a Silmarillion forum, but what about the Curse of Isildur?? He is a mortal man and yet he curses an entire kingdom!! Surely he has never heard the music. Plus even if he had, the curse wasn't a foreknowledge, it was more like a spell, so that they would never die.

[Elemmírë]

I would say what many people seem to have been pointing at: there is something in Turin's makeup (hubris, pride, whatever name you want to call it) that means he would or will not change course no matter who tells him to, up to and including the Valar. So Morgoth's "curse" can also be seen as simply knowing what Turin will do (because if you don't change course you are very predictable) and using that to make his life as horrible as possible.

Oh, don't mind me, guys. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate (wow, that seems really fitting in this case) and see if an alternative idea can work at all...

So I'm going to run with it for a while until someone really shoots me down, or I convince myself. Which ever comes first. :D

I'm not trying to say that the Curse was a force in and of itself (not yet, at least :evil: ) I think, however, that it became a force.

If the curse had no effect whatsoever, what would have been the point of mentioning it? I'm saying that psychologically, if nothing else, the Curse played a role.

btw, how could Turin's marriage to Nienor have been predicted?

But he only says he believes that not that he knew that.

I doubt he picked up the Thangorodrim Gazette! ;)

I think that could be an interesting newspaper. :D

Anyway, TD, belief can be as important, and as strong, as knowledge. IMO, if Turin believed that Morgoth cursed him, and wandered around living his life believing he was cursed and expecting nothing good to come of anything he did, than in effect he would be cursed.

Does this make any sense at all? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It makes sense. Hurin wasn't cursed before he was captured by Morgoth and Morgoth only cursed him while Hurin was captive and it's probable that Turin had alread been the victim of 'bad luck'!

Does that make sense!

[Durin1]

Turin, by natural inclination, is quiet and reserved, even in childhood, although he possesses unusual sensitivity and pity for someone his age. His personality takes a turn for the worst only after he is forced to depart from his home and seek Thingol in Doriath. His "woes" start as soon as he is separated from Morwen:. a child who, whithin a short period, is deprived of mother and father.

Morgoth systematically aimed to destroy the remnants of Hurin's family, including the rout of the House of Hador. His evil pursues the whole family to their detriment; including the choices that befall them and their own deeds that play a part in their individual downfalls.

IMHO, Morgoth identified that Hurin's taunts and defying was an aspect of the Pride that was inherent in the characteristics of the House of Hador. Therefore, he uses this Pride as the basis for which his curse would work. Hence, Morwen, through her pride refuses to leave her homestead. Nienor disobeys Morwen's order to stay back in Doriath when she wishes to follow her to Nargothrond, and Turin... well we all know what happened to him

Turin early on recognises that there is some sort of shadow that inflicts him and he is beset with bad luck, as well as bad judgement. I believe this is the curse that works its effects.

A physical embodiment of the curse is Glaurung. We are told that Morgoth emparts some of his own "spirit" into the Worm so that he sees through his eyes.

Turin's own internal strifes: bearing the loss of his parents, his Kingdom/people etc; his conflicting moods; sometimes wise beyond his years; possessing both humility (he doesn't really understand how strong and a great warrior he is) and pity, contrasts starkly with: rage; sadness and depression; ill luck; and Pride. I believe that although Turin had some of the latter characteristics from the outset, Morgoth exploits these weaknesses as much as possible through cursing the choices that Hurin's family make, and which ultimately decides their fates.

[Elemmírë]

Some sense, TD. Yes. ;)

And very nice, Durin1. :D

One question:

Turin early on recognises that there is some sort of shadow that inflicts him and he is beset with bad luck, as well as bad judgement. I believe this is the curse that works its effects.

"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Some sense, TD. Yes. ;)
Yay! :D

"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...
Was that directed at me! :confused: I don't doubt it's existance, all I'm saying is that I doubt that he knew about it before Gwindor mentioned it. Remember the name he gave himself after leaving Doriath, Neithan the Wronged. Then in Nargothrond, Agarwaen the son of Umarth, which translates to Bloodstained son of Ill-fate.

[Elemmírë]

Sorry, TD, that was directed at Durin1. :o

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Oh well. My statements still stand.

[Elemmírë]

Sure thing.

I don't doubt it's existance, all I'm saying is that I doubt that he knew about it before Gwindor mentioned it. Remember the name he gave himself after leaving Doriath, Neithan the Wronged. Then in Nargothrond, Agarwaen the son of Umarth, which translates to Bloodstained son of Ill-fate.

Actually, that's really interesting to look at, IMO. How his names are constantly changing, and why he uses one at one point of time instead of another... though not related to this thread, so I'll shut up now.

...Unless I can figure out some way to weave it into my harebrained theory... :evil:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We can discuss it here. (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=405309&posted=1#post405309)

[Wayfarer]

I'm not so sure that the 'curse' was really a curse in the traditional sense. Or rather, it was, but not in the way that you tend to think of a curse inflicting someone with an evil fate.

The way I see it, what it boils down to is the fact that Morgoth had dissimated most of his power in minions and throughout Middle Earth itself. Think about it. That's a lot of power in a lot of different places. That gives him a lot of leverage if he wants to, say, influence Turin and Nienor down the path to suicide. Take note of the fact that Morgoth is able to show Hurin what's happening with his kids - if he has the ability to get live footage of Turin's tragedy, is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that he might be orchastrating it?

After all, the One Ring shows an ability to tempt otherwise good people down the path to ruin, and since Middle Earth is, as Tolkien called it, 'Morgoth's Ring', it would certainly seem likely that he would possess the ability to tempt Turin to those acts which led to his destruction.

[Elemmírë]

I'm not so sure that the 'curse' was really a curse in the traditional sense. Or rather, it was, but not in the way that you tend to think of a curse inflicting someone with an evil fate.

That's the way I feel too, Wayfarer. :D It was a "curse" in a nontraditional sense...

Though your next arguments could be used to support that it could have been a "true" curse also. I think that's a possibility that should not be discounted entirely.

After all, the One Ring shows an ability to tempt otherwise good people down the path to ruin, and since Middle Earth is, as Tolkien called it, 'Morgoth's Ring', it would certainly seem likely that he would possess the ability to tempt Turin to those acts which led to his destruction.

That's a neat (though frightening and ominous) thought. I like it.

[Durin1]

Some sense, TD. Yes. ;)

And very nice, Durin1. :D

One question:



"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...

I think you pretty much answered your own question! :p

I definitely believe that a curse did exist. When replying to the taunts of Hurin, Morgoth alludes to the fact that he (Hurin) should not underestimate the power that Morgoth has. Hence the curse that he inflicts.

BTW, curses were quite common, Dwarves are especially proficient in giving them!!

Tolkien was deeply moved by the story of Turin. He spent more time on developing the Narn i Hin Hurin than on any other work, including Beren and Luthien. He created a uniques destiny for Turin to: "redress the wrongs inflicted on his House". In fact, he gains so much prominance that he deals Melkor his death-blow during the Last Battle, standing on one side of Tulkas.

This shows to me that Turin can't have been all that bad and he is unique in that he bears the brunt of Morgoth's malice more than any other character.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was his pride that was his biggest let down tho.

[Elemmírë]

Tolkien was deeply moved by the story of Turin. He spent more time on developing the Narn i Hin Hurin than on any other work, including Beren and Luthien. He created a uniques destiny for Turin to: "redress the wrongs inflicted on his House". In fact, he gains so much prominance that he deals Melkor his death-blow during the Last Battle, standing on one side of Tulkas.

This shows to me that Turin can't have been all that bad and he is unique in that he bears the brunt of Morgoth's malice more than any other character.

I've heard of this destiny of Turin, but I've never actually found it anywhere. Where is it? What is it? Is it an Elvish prophecy, one given by Men, or by the Valar?

Yes, he does bear more of Morgoth's malice, but is this necessarily because Morgoth hated him more than anyone else? Could it have been rather that Morgoth could effect him more than he could effect others?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I wouldn't say he bore Morgoth's malice more than anyone. I'd say Hurin and his kin did. I'd say he bore Glaurungs hate more than anyone, but not Morgoth's.

[Elemmírë]

I wouldn't say he bore Morgoth's malice more than anyone. I'd say Hurin and his kin did. I'd say he bore Glaurungs hate more than anyone, but not Morgoth's.

Last time I checked, Turin was Hurin's kin... :p ;) :D

Why would he have borne Glaurung's hate more than anyone else? The only thing I can remember him doing to Glaurung (and I haven't read the story too recently... I can never seem to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth anymore :o ) is killing him... And by then it's too late for Glaurung to hate much of anyone... :p

[Durin1]

Last time I checked, Turin was Hurin's kin... :p ;) :D

Why would he have borne Glaurung's hate more than anyone else? The only thing I can remember him doing to Glaurung (and I haven't read the story too recently... I can never seem to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth anymore :o ) is killing him... And by then it's too late for Glaurung to hate much of anyone... :p

Maybe Glaurung had some sort of premonition that Turin was a danger to him: he did, after all, wear the Dragon-helm (which was said to have been made in defiance of Glaurung).

[Durin1]

I've heard of this destiny of Turin, but I've never actually found it anywhere. Where is it? What is it? Is it an Elvish prophecy, one given by Men, or by the Valar?

Yes, he does bear more of Morgoth's malice, but is this necessarily because Morgoth hated him more than anyone else? Could it have been rather that Morgoth could effect him more than he could effect others?

Discussions on Turin's destiny occur sporadically in a couple of the HoMe books. I'll have to have a search to locate exactly where.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Last time I checked, Turin was Hurin's kin... :p ;) :D

Why would he have borne Glaurung's hate more than anyone else? The only thing I can remember him doing to Glaurung (and I haven't read the story too recently... I can never seem to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth anymore :o ) is killing him... And by then it's too late for Glaurung to hate much of anyone... :p
What I meant was Turin alone didn't bear Morgoth's hate more that anyone else. Hurin and his kin did, not just Turin.
With Glaurung he alone defied him at the fall of Nargothrond. And as Durin said, Turin wore the Dragon Helm wich was in defiance of him.

[Elemmírë]

Discussions on Turin's destiny occur sporadically in a couple of the HoMe books. I'll have to have a search to locate exactly where.

Thank you. :)

With Glaurung he alone defied him at the fall of Nargothrond.

Hey... Fingon shot Glaurung...

Then again, Fingon's already dead... :( :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But when Fingon shot at Glaurung he wasn't full grown to man/dragonhood. When Turin defied him he was at the height of his power.

[Elemmírë]

Fingon still shot him.

I'd think that being shot when just a child would have some serious psychological damage. I'm surprised poor Glaurung even got over it...

*reads post*

*reads the last few posts*

Wow. That was horribly Off Topic. :D