Are Elves condescending and arrogant?

[Ruinel]

A friend of mine claims that he thinks the Elves are "condescending and arrogant." That this impression was made by reading LotR.

Do you think that Elves are condescending and arrogant to other races of Middle Earth? If so, you better be prepared to give examples.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
A friend of mine claims that he thinks the Elves are "condescending and arrogant." That this impression was made by reading LotR.

Do you think that Elves are condescending and arrogant to other races of Middle Earth? If so, you better be prepared to give examples.
Well yes they are condescending at times. They try to keep to themselves. Look at how the Elves of Lothlorien are and how Haldir acts toward Gimli. The Elves of Lothlorien in the beginning are very arrogant and condescending.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
Well yes they are condescending at times. They try to keep to themselves. Look at how the Elves of Lothlorien are and how Haldir acts toward Gimli. The Elves of Lothlorien in the beginning are very arrogant and condescending.
Oh? Is that so?
1) Elves only keep to themselves to prevent having influence on the natural course of human development. It is the same with not giving advice.
2) The Elves of Lothlorien keep to themselves for safety.
3) Gimli is a Dwarf. There was strife between them. Haldir only followed the laws of his people.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Oh? Is that so?
1) Elves only keep to themselves to prevent having influence on the natural course of human development. It is the same with not giving advice.
2) The Elves of Lothlorien keep to themselves for safety.

They felt that man was the weaker race and they were superior to men though.

3) Gimli is a Dwarf. There was strife between them. Haldir only followed the laws of his people.
That is true, but Haldir also knew Aragorn. But basically you are right in, this case the elves were more racist than arrogant.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Oroginally posted by Ruinel:
"A friend of mine claims that he thinks the Elves are "condescending and arrogant." That this impression was made by reading LotR. "
________________________________________________

Curious. Had he said this about the Noldor, and particularly the sons of Feanor, after reading The Simarillion, I'd say he had a good point. But not LOTR. Did he understand the elfs were essentially into their "fading" phase in relation to Middle-earth?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
They felt that man was the weaker race and they were superior to men though. When Gildor Inglorion meets Frodo and the others, they are concerned for their safety (after the mention of the Black Riders).

That is true, but Haldir also knew Aragorn. But basically you are right in, this case the elves were more racist than arrogant. They had reasons to distrust the Dwarves.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Curious. Had he said this about the Noldor, and particularly the sons of Feanor, after reading The Simarillion, I'd say he had a good point. But not LOTR. Did he understand the elfs were essentially into their "fading" phase in relation to Middle-earth?
No, he's pretty dense. :p :D

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, he's pretty dense. :p :D
I was talking about the elves in general - not just in Lord of the Rings. I do think at times they showed an arrogance toward man.

[Ruinel]

Oh, excuse me. Since we were discussing originally Gildor Inglorion from Chapter 3 (Three's Company) in FotR, which is in LotR. :rolleyes: I still do not see how he is condescending at all.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
A friend of mine claims that he thinks the Elves are "condescending and arrogant." That this impression was made by reading LotR.

Do you think that Elves are condescending and arrogant to other races of Middle Earth? If so, you better be prepared to give examples. The Elves of the First Age were condescending and arrogant to a degree. Look at Thinglo, and Feanor and his sons. Perhaps not all, as we see in the case of Finrod, but enen he admits they were.

From Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoths Ring, volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

I see,' said Andreth, 'that in this ye of the High-elves do not
differ from your lesser kindred whom we have met in the world,
though they have never dwelt in the Light. All ye Elves deem
that we die swiftly by our true kind. That we are brittle and
brief, and ye are strong and lasting. We may be "Children of
Eru", as ye say in your lore; but we are children to you also: to
be loved a little maybe, and yet creatures of less worth, upon
whom ye may look down from the height of your power and
your knowledge, with a smile, or with pity, or with a shaking of
heads.'
'Alas, you speak near the truth,' said Finrod. 'At least of
many of my people; but not of all, and certainly not of me.As for the Elves of the Third age, look at Elrond, Haldir, Celeborn. What about them?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Oh, excuse me. Since we were discussing originally Gildor Inglorion from Chapter 3 (Three's Company) in FotR, which is in LotR. :rolleyes: I still do not see how he is condescending at all.
You were the one who brought him up. But he didn't really want to give his time to Frodo - but he did because he understood the danger and urgency.


The elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth


Seldom have we had such delight in strangers...

It's as if they are above all others in the world and the rest of the creatures just bore them. Not to mention they just can't be bothered by them.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The Elves of the First Age were condescending and arrogant to a degree. Look at Thinglo, and Feanor and his sons. Perhaps not all, as we see in the case of Finrod, but enen he admits they were.

From Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoths Ring, volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

As for the Elves of the Third age, look at Elrond, Haldir, Celeborn. What about them?
I do not think that Feanor and Thingol (nor Feanor's sons) represent all of the Quendi. That is like saying that Hitler represents all of the Atani.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I do not think that Feanor and Thingol (nor Feanor's sons) represent all of the Quendi. That is like saying that Hitler represents all of the Atani. I didn't say they were all arrogant, but you know what? You are blind if you think they all didn't have their moments, and that includes Finrod.I can give you a ton of quotes from the Athrabeth where he says some not so nice things.

[hectorberlioz]

Elves are arrogan enough to think that dwarves are all the same.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I didn't say they were all arrogant, but you know what? You are blind if you think they all didn't have their moments, and that includes Finrod.I can give you a ton of quotes from the Athrabeth where he says some not so nice things.
"A ton of quotes"? From a bitter, old Atan woman who gets this idea because she did not get to be with Finrod's brother. :rolleyes: oh, that will support your argument.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
"A ton of quotes"? From a bitter, old Atan woman who gets this idea because she did not get to be with Finrod's brother. :rolleyes: oh, that will support your argument. Granted Andreth was bitter, and granted that Finrod was nicer to her than he had to be, but that does not alter the fact that there were times where he talked down to her.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
"A ton of quotes"? From a bitter, old Atan woman who gets this idea because she did not get to be with Finrod's brother. :rolleyes: oh, that will support your argument.
Can we just have an intelligent conversation without turning this into one of the many threads I have seen on the movie forum?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Granted Andreth was bitter, and granted that Finrod was nicer to her than he had to be, but that does not alter the fact that there were times where he talked down to her.
:eek: :eek:
Finrod would NEVER talk down to Andreth! He was the friend of Man. I can't see how you could say this. Shame shame shame on you!!!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
Can we just have an intelligent conversation without turning this into one of the many threads I have seen on the movie forum?
:rolleyes: quit being a pansy :p

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Elves are arrogan enough to think that dwarves are all the same. Dwarves were as cautious of Elves as Elves were of Dwarves. They had some bad history between them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
:eek: :eek:
Finrod would NEVER talk down to Andreth! He was the friend of Man. I can't see how you could say this. Shame shame shame on you!!! Do I have to look up the quotes and post them? Shame on me? He's the one that said it.:p

[Ruinel]

umm.. yeah, sgh.... see the original post? It says, to post evidence (so to speak).

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
:rolleyes: quit being a pansy :p
I created the elves - so I should know that they were arrogant. They had many flaws - they were not perfect.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
I created the elves - so I should know that they were arrogant. They had many flaws - they were not perfect.
You know nothing, poser, that is quite obvious. I did not say that Elves were without flaw. But as a whole, a group, the Elves were NOT arrogant nor condescending. And I do not believe you have posted any evidence to support your view, other than "cuz I said so". :rolleyes: Let's keep this to an intelligent conversation, please. If you don't have anything to add, just sit back and watch. :rolleyes:

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You know nothing, poser, that is quite obvious. I did not say that Elves were without flaw. But as a whole, a group, the Elves were NOT arrogant nor condescending. And I do not believe you have posted any evidence to support your view, other than "cuz I said so".
I was going to post evidence. It seemed like JD and you were the one's who had the side conversation and he (edit: looked and Ruinel referred to JD as "he") posted evidence on what you were talking about. SGH has posted evidence. It doesn't seem as if you want evidence, you just want people to agree with you. :rolleyes:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
I was going to post evidence. It seemed like JD and you were the one's who had the side conversation and he/she posted evidence on what you were talking about. SGH has posted evidence. It doesn't seem as if you want evidence, you just want people to agree with you. :rolleyes:
The "he/she", JD, posted no evidence, only his opinion. Read it again. :rolleyes:

And SGH only gave a few examples. Like I said, to say that Thingol or Feanor are proper representations to all of the Elves is like saying that Hitler was a proper representation for Men.

[hectorberlioz]

I really dont think this bad history beyween elves and dwarves was a good enough excuse for the lothlorian elves to treat gimli badly. After all, he did come with the fellowship and was chosen by elrond.
So if you ask me, I think it was racism.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Here are a few remarks that Finrod made to Andreth.

Andreth looked up and her eyes darkened. 'The Valar?' she
said. 'How should I know, or any Man? Your Valar do not
trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no
summons to us.'
'What do you know of them?' said Finrod. 'I have seen them
and dwelt among them, and in the presence of Manwe and
Varda I have stood in the Light. Speak not of them so, nor of

anything that is high above you. Such words came first out
of the Lying Mouth.


"You say: "we were not made for death, nor born
ever to die." What do you mean: that ye were as we are, or
otherwise? '
'This lore takes no account of you,' said Andreth, 'for we
knew nothing of the Eldar. We considered only dying and
not-dying. Of life as long as the world but no longer we had not
heard; indeed not until now has it entered my mind.'
'To speak truly,' said Finrod, 'I had thought that this belief of
yours, that ye too were not made for death, was but a dream of
your pride, bred in envy of the Quendi, to equal or surpass
them. Not so, you will say.

There are just two examples, from Finrod.

[Ruinel]

Those that were not proper representations for the Elves: Thingol, Feanor, and Feanor's sons.

Those that were proper representations for the Elves: Finrod, Voronwe, Turgon, Gildor Inglorion, Elrond, Luthien, Legolas, Idril, Galadriel, Celeborn... and countless others.

But many of you insist that the few at the top of this post are how all Elves are, and that's not true.

To say this is to say that ALL men are evil, lustful, violent, war-hungry, and vengeful. And that is not so.

[hectorberlioz]

ummm...Ruinel, this thread is about "Are Elves condescending and arrogant?" so...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Celeborn was a jerk.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Those that were not proper representations for the Elves: Thingol, Feanor, and Feanor's sons.

Those that were proper representations for the Elves: Finrod, Voronwe, Turgon, Gildor Inglorion, Elrond, Luthien, Legolas, Idril, Galadriel, Celeborn... and countless others.

But many of you insist that the few at the top of this post are how all Elves are, and that's not true.

To say this is to say that ALL men are evil, lustful, violent, war-hungry, and vengeful. And that is not so.
I think it's whether in general the elves were arrogant or not. I think they were arrogant to a point toward men and other races.

[Ruinel]

SGH...
The first one, he is not speaking down to her but defending the Valar. The Valar are above Finrod as well, and he is only saying that he knows them better, since he dwelt with them. To finish it...
..."Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One...."
Doesn't really sound like condescending to me. ;)

The second one, is taken out of context.
"...Not so, you will say. Yet long ere ye came to this land, ye met other folk of the Quendi, and by some were befriended. Were ye not then already mortal? And did ye never speak with them concerning life and death? Though without any words they would soon discover your mortality, and ere long you would perceive that they did not die."

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
I think it's whether in general the elves were arrogant or not. I think they were arrogant to a point toward men and other races.
And where is your evidence? Or is this just your opinion. Looks like opinion to me, IMO. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
SGH...
The first one, he is not speaking down to her but defending the Valar. The Valar are above Finrod as well, and he is only saying that he knows them better, since he dwelt with them. To finish it...

Doesn't really sound like condescending to me. ;)

The second one, is taken out of context. In the first one, she is saying that the Valar did not trouble themselves with men, which is true. He gets bent out of shape and tells her to not speak of things that are high above her, not just the Valar, and he goes on to let her know how he dwelt there, as she said before, "in bliss"

In the second one he comes striaght out and says that he thought this thought of hers was bred out of invy for the Elves, now if that isn't saying: (we are better than you) then I don't know what is.

The fact that he goes on to say some kind things, doesn't change the statement that he started out with, and he said he truly believed it.

[Ruinel]

She doesn't know what she's talking about. He does. He's telling her not to speak of the Valar this way. THEY ARE above her, as well as HIM. They're the VALAR for pete's sake. :rolleyes:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Speak not of them so, nor of

anything that is high above you. Such words came first out
of the Lying Mouth.

[Artanis]

Condescending and arrogant Elves? I did sometimes get that impression from the Sil, but not from LotR. Thingol's attitude towards Beren and Caranthir's attitude towards the Dwarves are good examples from the Sil. But talking about the Athrabeth, I'll have to agree with Ruinel. I do not see Finrod speaking down to Andreth. In the first one, she is saying that the Valar did not trouble themselves with men, which is true. He gets bent out of shape and tells her to not speak of things that are high above her, not just the Valar, and he goes on to let her know how he dwelt there, as she said before, "in bliss"Well, all this is true. As Ruinel said, the Valar are above them both. I see it as an advice to her, to turn away from the 'lying mouth'. After all, Finrod has the advantage of having seen the Valar with his own eyes, and he also has the advantage of having experienced Melkor's lies about the Valar.In the second one he comes striaght out and says that he thought this thought of hers was bred out of invy for the Elves, now if that isn't saying: (we are better than you) then I don't know what is.Well as I see it those thoughts were probably bred out of envy for the Elves. And it isn't like saying "We are better than you", it's like saying "You envy us because you think we are better off than you, but you are wrong".

[Ruinel]

Quetel sanda ar mára, Artanis*. :D
















*"You speak true and good, Artanis.

[Sween]

I think it could be undersood that Elves are by nature condersending! lets us not forget that they are by nature greater than us in many ways. They acctually exisit upon many other levels from us.

As for how they would treat us i can see why a lot would see us mearly as children compared to them and with good reason there is a lot that they understand and know by nature that is by far above our comprension. As for there long assiciation with the Valar i can see there point i mean its not wise to pass comment on someone that you have never met and therefore that must be said of the valar and men!

I allways in life take people how i see them and they treat me i am not a fan of going on what others have said! The same has to be said of the Elves who were probably reluctant to tell much of the valar for there own shame and there probably belif that such things were abve the comprenhension of men

[Sister Golden Hair]

Artanis, you are not being helpful. I am trying to make Ruinel dislike Finrod. Not an easy task.:D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Artanis, you are not being helpful. I am trying to make Ruinel dislike Finrod. Not an easy task.:D Sorry, but that's OYP*. :p
And calling Celeborn a jerk doesn't earn you any goodwill from me. :rolleyes: ;)



*Obviosly Your Problem

[Ruinel]

:) See, Artanis, how I put Celeborn in with the good Elves? :D And you, as well. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Sorry, but that's OYP*. :p
And calling Celeborn a jerk doesn't earn you any goodwill from me. :rolleyes: ;)



*Obviosly Your Problem Well, Celeborn is a jerk, and he reminds me a great deal of that other jerk, Thingol. Of course they are cut from the same cloth, aren't they?

Ruinel, you butt kisser.:D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, Celeborn is a jerk, and he reminds me a great deal of that other jerk, Thingol.Galadriel would never have married a jerk. :rolleyes:

[Beor]

well, I'd say that if the elves are condescending towards men and dwarves, that they do have a right to be, or at least a reason, anyway. At the battle of unnumbered tears, men betrayed the hell out of maedhros, albiet they were the uh.."swarthy men", that kind of thing probably kinda puts elves off.

Thingol was arrogant, but he was also looking out for his kingdom and his people. He might have gone about it in the wrong way, and made quite a few mistakes, like turning men out from the get-go, but he was nervous, ever since the Noldor came back and he learned of the kinslaying. Then he got killed by the dwarves for a silmaril (which he wouldnt have had, but for Beren;) ).

As far as their seemingly sit back and watch policy of the war of the rings, if it (the policy) actually existed, it might have had something to do with the fact that the Valar interferred with them in their childhood, and it ended up going somewhat wrong, for a lot of people. A lot of good came too, but I think that's another thread.

At least they're not senile ;)

Also, if they are, there aint much anyone could do about it anyway, so you've just gotta weather the storm and let them rant on sometimes:)

Celeborn is not a jerk, but he is kinda strange sometimes, IMO:confused:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
...Ruinel, you butt kisser.:D :eek: Are you flaming me, SGH? ;)

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk.
Good point, Artanis. And we all know that JRRT considered Galadriel to have a keen insight into the soul of those she knew. Look at Feanor, she never liked him much. Yet, she married Celeborn. There has to be something really special about Celeborn to draw Galadriel to him. :) (I'll refrain from the obvious sexual innuendo here. ;) :D)

[MasterMothra]

Do you think that Elves are condescending and arrogant to other races of Middle Earth? If so, you better be prepared to give examples.

You asked for opinions and supporting evidence and both were given equally.

Those that were not proper representations for the Elves: Thingol, Feanor, and Feanor's sons.

Hmmm, this statement still baffles me. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but werent those elves important?

Are there any other conditions that must be met before proceeding with this discussion?

[Earniel]

Personally I never really got the impression from LoTR that the Elves were arrogant. (The Silmarillion is of course a different matter, those Silmarillion-Elves were quite a surprise for me. :p)

I got more the impression that the LoTR-Elves were a little distant, as if the world was changing faster than they could keep up with.

I think we shouldn't forget that most Elves had been already a loooong time on Middle-earth in LoTR and were quite a deal older than the other races of Men and Dwarves. I think it was rather difficult for Elves talking with creatures that were so much younger and more inexperienced than you without sounding arrogant at times.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
...Are there any other conditions that must be met before proceeding with this discussion?
Yes, you need to do 20 push ups. Then you may proceed with discussing in this thread. :p

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Yes, you need to do 20 push ups. Then you may proceed with discussing in this thread. :p Spammer... :p

originally posted by Earniel
The Silmarillion is of course a different matter, those Silmarillion-Elves were quite a surprise for me.:p Well, in the Sil the elves were many; in LOTR they were only the remainders.
They were stronger back then comparing to the men. in the third age... they were different.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk. :rolleyes: Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia.:rolleyes:

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Well, in the Sil the elves were many; in LOTR they were only the remainders. They were stronger back then comparing to the men. in the third age... they were different.
Darn right they were different. :eek: It's not so much that there were a lot more Elves in the Silmarillion than in LoTR. It was more the notion of Elves fighting wars and killing one another that shattered my previously peaceful ideas about the Eldar. :p

Originally posted by SGH
Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia. :rolleyes:
However, you don't know how Celeborn and Thingol were at the time Galadriel and Melian married them. And you might never know if you still think of Finrod the same way when you celebrate your mithril marriage.;)

[Willow Oran]

Of course elves were condescending and arrogant, so were the humans and the dwarves and just about every other sentient being in middle earth because it is in the nature of creatures that think to always believe that their sort of creature is better than any other sort of creature. The fact that the elves had already been around for a really long time by the time they started interacting with humans only made this tendency more obvious.

Aside from that, Celeborn is not a jerk. He over-reacted to some bad news, and apologized afterwards. That is the only time anywhere that he is anything other than courteous and willing to give advice.

Thingol was a jerk, I'll admit that, personally I think it was the name that did him in. His character was fine under the name Elwe.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Look at Thinglo ... This typo just cracked me up for some reason :D

I agree with the chocoholic Sea Elf - in LoTR, the elves seemed distant.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Why not? Melian did, and she was a Maia.:rolleyes: Galadriel would never settle with a man who could not match her own intelligence and strength. It would be against her personality to take anything less than the best.

Melian will have to answer for herself. Though I would argue against the jerkiness of Thingol too.

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never settle with a man who could not match her own intelligence and strength. It would be against her personality to take anything less than the best.

I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me she chose someone whom she would not have to compete with for attention. Celeborn did not represent a figure that rivaled her fame and stature. She was definately the matriarch and desired power.
"But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier". -Galadriel to Celebrimbor, UT. Galadriel the wise and fair, but also proud and arrogant.

If she desired an equal she would have chosen Celebrimbor.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Artanis
Galadriel would never have married a jerk. :rolleyes: Yes, Celeborn grated on me, too, when I first read LotR, but I had to admit that his apology was handsome enough. As for Galadriel marrying him, I have seen strong, independent women marry relatively late to handsome, less forceful men. Galadriel's statement about "the golden house of Finarfin" is quite arrogant, but she learned wisdom over time to finally find the humility to reject the Ruling Ring, to be finally forgiven and return over sea, so perhaps the early arrogance of the Elves was a function of their youth, relatively speaking. As for Fëanor, Celegrm, Curufin, and Thingol, their arrogance is quite breathtaking, IMO

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me she chose someone whom she would not have to compete with for attention. Celeborn did not represent a figure that rivaled her fame and stature. She was definately the matriarch and desired power.
"But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier". -Galadriel to Celebrimbor, UT. Galadriel the wise and fair, but also proud and arrogant.

If she desired an equal she would have chosen Celebrimbor. Problem is, we don't really know much about Celeborn (nor about Celebrimbor, except that he was crafty) before we meet him briefly in LotR. It is true that Galadriel was proud in her youth, and that's exactly why I don't believe she would choose Celeborn as husband if he wasn't outstanding.

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Attalus
As for Fëanor, Celegrm, Curufin, and Thingol, their arrogance is quite breathtaking, IMO

I agree! That is what made them so interesting.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
..."But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier". -Galadriel to Celebrimbor, UT. Galadriel the wise and fair, but also proud and arrogant.

If she desired an equal she would have chosen Celebrimbor.
Galadriel was right, though. The house of Finarfin didn't participate in the kinslaying and tried in vain to prevent it once they discovered it. They left with their kin, in loyalty to them only. Galadriel didn't leave because she looked up to Feanor. And, yes, she was anxious to go to ME to see what was there and form her own realm. This makes her ambitious, not necessarily arrogant.

She wouldn't ask pardon of the Valar for something she felt she didn't deserve. This makes her arrogant, true. But she is also right.

I actually started the thread asking if the Elves were arrogant and condescending and I guess I wasn't clear. The conversation was whether Elves were condescending and arrogant toward Men. :)

[Sween]

Ive just had a thought right now in the bath (oh what an image)! Is it condersending when an adult talk to a child about the stock market or stuff only adults really know and the young bearly have a grasp of? Do you not think the same apply to the Elves? How can they treat them the same, they are not.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sween
Ive just had a thought right now in the bath (oh what an image)! Is it condersending when an adult talk to a child about the stock market or stuff only adults really know and the young bearly have a grasp of? Do you not think the same apply to the Elves? How can they treat them the same, they are not.
It depends on how the adult discusses it with the child. If the adult puts it in terms that the child can understand, then it isn't condescending. How else would a child learn about such foreign things unless an adult teaches them?

But is this an accurate analogy? Because Men were certainly not children to the Elves. Even though the Elves did teach Men many things, I got the impression from the stories that they were more like friends than one had the upper hand.

[matthew]

Elves certainly had bad points, but they were far too broad a race to charecterize them all as condecending. That would be like saying men were wholly evil for the disgressions of the easterlings. :mad:
By the 3rd Age I think elves were more aloof than haughty.
They didn't care about petty rings and such. :D

[Sween]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It depends on how the adult discusses it with the child. If the adult puts it in terms that the child can understand, then it isn't condescending. How else would a child learn about such foreign things unless an adult teaches them?

But is this an accurate analogy? Because Men were certainly not children to the Elves. Even though the Elves did teach Men many things, I got the impression from the stories that they were more like friends than one had the upper hand.

I would have to disagree. Men lived for little longer than what was considered an Elf's childhood and they never came close to grasping the same control of there bodies. I ment to say a very young child like 3 or 4!

I think they felt of men with the higher matters that they could maybe know of them but not understand them! But at the same time i dont think Elves fully understood men and why they could do the things they could do! There ability to shape there distiny etc

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In response to the title:

"Of course you are, Ru." ;)

[Eärloth]

Don't you reckon though it's pretty much interpreted into one's nature to be arrogant or courteous or whatever? Like: there's Finrod, who was always respectful to Men because he recognised their intelligence and appreciation in receiving it, and then there is Fëanor (yuck), who was disdainful towards his half brothers, for no other reason initially than that they didn't share the same mother. Celegorm and Curufin, who were going to force Lúthien into marriage or assault Doriath; and then there's Beleg, who in the end got killed trying to save his *human* friend (shows where being friends with HUMANS gets you. I shoulda given that up a looong time ago. Filthy earthlings…).

But then again there are a few humans who show the same characteristics:

Finrod ~ Boromir; died in defence of friend(s).
Celegorm & Curufin ~ Ar-Pharazon & Denethor; Ar-Pharazon forced MÃ*riel/Tar-MÃ*riel [his COUSIN!!! :eek::eek::eek:] into marriage, and changed her name to Ar-Zimraphel just so he could gain kingship; Denethor took Finduilas to wife and then kept her in Gondor in sight of the Shadow in the East; as a result she died of despair.

As a people Elves were renowned as being wise/st in lore and art and craft and blah blah blah, but really only some of them let it go to their heads; just as humans do, really.

[ranger]

i would agree with your friend about being arrogent

1) they seem to think that all the other races are inferier because they ( elves) are the firstborn

2) ....... dang.... i had a bunch but i forgot


i am a ranger.... i will fight for right and what i believe( you dis my family, friends hobbies.......i will fight even if i will not survive) aragorn (viggo) rocks!!!!![/

[Vicky]

Elves live longer then Men and because of that they know much more about everything. Men pretend to know something, but compared to Elves it's nothing.
So how would you feel if someone who is so much younger then you says to to you that your wrong? The first time you might find it funny, but what if it happens like all the time....

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Are Elves condescending and arrogant? "

No, not any more than I am.

[ranger]

i guessed that:D ) in my personal oppinion.... you already had it....oh well............... i think elves ( not to generalize,.. some elves) think there better... some are cautious about who they talk to ( who could blame them) but some elves are just plain rude....

[BeardofPants]

Ooh, thanks SGH. Not sure why I never posted in this the first time 'round...
Do I think they're arrogant? Not really. I think they could be perceived to be arrogant from our point of view, but as someone said once in a thread somewhere, maybe even this one, they lived for a different length of time, this would have an impact on how they thought, acted, and interacted with a species that was mortal, like the race of Men. My thoughts are that they had developed their own "manner" which was a bit more aloof perhaps, than we are used to. And y'know, buggering off for days on end to meditate wouldn't seem so much of a sacrifice to a nearly immortal race, so probably they liked their own company more than being surrounded by a gaggle of humans. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ooh, thanks SGH. Not sure why I never posted in this the first time 'round...LOL! You must have been watching me on "who's on line" and saw me peeking at the old threads. :D

[BeardofPants]

Yup, useful every now and then for pulling up threads that I didn't spout my infernally important opinions in. ;)