Why wasn't the Shire mentioned at all?

[Tolman Muggworts]

I'v wondered before why the Shire wasn't talked about in the Hobbit. Was it because J.R.R.T. hadn't created it yet? Any ideas?:confused:

[Anadriewen]

I've never thought about that. I think that it wasn't that he hadn't created it yet. I think that it was never necasarry. It's necasary in the LOTR because Gollum tells Sauron Baggins and Shire. Now you say, The Shire wasn't mentioned in the Hobbit, now u got me wondering how Gollum new Bibo was from the Shire? Maybe someone else can answer that for me. :confused:

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Anadriewen
Now you say, The Shire wasn't mentioned in the Hobbit, now u got me wondering how Gollum knew Bilbo was from the Shire? Maybe someone else can answer that for me.
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I'm not sure The Shire, as nomenclature, not as a concept, was invented by the 1930s.
As for how Gollum knew where Bilbo was, Tolkien covered that in LOTR.
Well, as for the name, Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out.....I gathered that his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo's name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum's sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted
LOTR, "The Shadow of the Past"

[elvishfaerie3088]

here's my theory don't take it too much to head though.
Kay, i think i know, gollum who is smeagol was from where? the shire abouts right, so he probably knows the name baggins and linked the two together wait in the hobbit does he tell gollum his last name? hmmm...*runs to get book* *flips to find page* Ah Ha riddles in the dark thats where it might be...ha, " I am Mr Bilbo Baggins. I have lost the dwarves and have lost the wizard, and I don't know where i am and i don't want to know, if only i can get away." J.R.R. Tolkien page 70 of The Hobbit, none the doubt.

[Sheeana]

Nice, except that Smeagol didn't come from the Shire.

[flupke]

:confused:

gollum was a hobbit.
he must have heard of the name back then,
or else he most have heard it when he came out of the tunnels.

[Radagast The Brown]

I doubt he heard the name Baggins before. Not all hobbits came from the same place, I believe?

[Keith K]

I'm certain that Smeagols' home was near the Gladden Fields before any hobbits had even crossed the Misty Mts. And well before the Shire or Bree was settled.

[Radagast The Brown]

In the appendix B:
~1050 - The Periannath are first mention in redords, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.
~1150 - The Fallohides enter Eriador.
2463 - Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol.

Hobbits were in Eriador before Gollum take the ring.

[Keith K]

Thank you Radagast for looking that up and correcting my misstatement. So they had crossed the mountains! I guess the Stoors were taking their time following the other clans westward.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
In the appendix B:
~1050 - The Periannath are first mention in redords, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.
~1150 - The Fallohides enter Eriador.
2463 - Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol.

Hobbits were in Eriador before Gollum take the ring.
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Oh , no! You've got me trying to figure out details of the Stoor migrations!

Good observation by Radagast above, and correct. But that doesn't mean Gollum's settlement near the Gladden Fields had necessarily heard of the Shire. In Appendix B:
~ c.1150 The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or Dunland.
~c. 1300 The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
~ 1356 About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, and some return to Wilderland. [by the Gladden Fields]
~ 1601 Many Periannath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II.

If I follow this correctly, it says that the Stoors came over the Misty Mountains c. 1150 and settled in two places (the Angle and Dunland). Then 200 years later some in the Angle moved to join Stoors in Dunland while others (Gollum's ancestors) returned to the Anduin, and only over 200 years later was the Shire settled. Since there is no indication of communication between the (dwindling) Stoor Anduin settlement and the Shire it seems probable Gollum had not heard of the Shire before Bilbo's adventure.

Also, some information on Stoors from the complete guide to Middle-earth, by Robert Foster:

STOORS The southernmost of the three strains of Hobbits. The Stoors stayed in the Vales of Anduin longest of any of the three groups, but about TA 1300 they went over the Redhorn Pass and settled in Dunland or Rhovanion about a hundred years later because of the threat of Angmar. The Stoor settlement in Rhovanion was in the Gladden Fields; it survived until well after 2460. The Stoors in Dunland emigrated to the Shire about 1630 and settled mostly in the Eastfarthing and Southfarthing. At the time of the WR, Stoors were common in the Marish and Buckland.
Stoors were broader and heavier than other Hobbits and were the only Hobbits to grow beards. Some Stoors wore boots in muddy weather. The Stoors were friendlier with Men then te other strains, and they preferred flat lands and riversides.Stoors were almost the only Hobbits to know anything of boating, swimming, and fishing.

As an aside, since Frodo and Merry were Brandybucks, they may have been closer (if still distant) relations to Gollum then the other Fellowship Hobbits. Could that have had some (minor) effect on Frodo's empathy to Gollum's plight?

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin

2463 - Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol.
~ 1601 Many Periannath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II.
STOORS The Stoor settlement in Rhovanion was in the Gladden Fields; it survived until well after 2460

If we add a new date into the equation perhaps it is possible that Gollum could have heard of the Shire when he came out of the mountains in search of the precious. In the Tale of Years (appendix B) it says that Gollum left the mountains in 2944. If the Gladden Fields settlement was still there when Gollum came out it is possible that with his cunning Gollum could have heard rumour of the Shire at that time. It depends on how you interpret the words "well after 2460". If well after means 484 years then it seems logical that Gollum would first visit his old home since that is the area from which he left to enter the mountains in the first place.

[Radagast The Brown]

Tuor of Gondolin - I never said Gollum heard about the Shire. As I said/meant to say, I doubt he heard about it.

MMaybe, though, Bilbo did say he's from the Shire, but it's not written in the book.

[Tolman Muggworts]

That seems possible to me, but I doubt that Tolkien would have troubled with something like that if it weren't in the book

[Dúnedain]

Here is something that might help clear it up a bit, even though it doesn't state how he knew Bilbo was from the Shire, it does touch on some other points mentioned earlier:

From Unfinished Tales; IV The Hunt for the Ring: (i) Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo:

Gollum, however, was before long captured by Aragorn, and taken to Northern Mirkwood; and though he was followed, he could not be rescued before he was in safe keeping. Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account, both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself, and because what he knew he falsified. Ultimately indomitable he was, except by death, as Sauron did not fully comprehend, being himself consumed by the lust for the ring. Then he became filled with a hatred of Sauron even greater than his terror, seeing in him truly his greatest enemy and rival. Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land of the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.

And....

From Unfinished Tales; IV The Hunt for the Ring: (ii) Other Versions of the Story:

From all the accounts it is clear that Gollum did at least know in which direction the Shire lay; but though no doubt more could have been wrung from him by torture, Sauron plainly had no inkling that Baggins came from a region far removed from the Misty Mountains or that Gollum knew where it was, and assumed that he would be found in the Vales of the Anduin, in the same region as Gollum himself had once lived.

It goes on further stating how the Black Riders found the shire and whatnot, but it wasn't from Gollum whatsoever...

Also I haven't read yet how Gollum knew Baggins was from the Shire other than the fact that he knew the direction it was in. My best guess at this point is he overheard talk somewhere along his way, maybe with the remaining stoors or whatnot, because it also says in these passages that the ending of the Stoor settlement was when the Black Riders searched that area Gollum had come from and they slain and drove off those Stoors still there...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
My best guess at this point is he overheard talk somewhere along his way, maybe with the remaining stoors or whatnot, because it also says in these passages that the ending of the Stoor settlement was when the Black Riders searched that area Gollum had come from and they slain and drove off those Stoors still there...

Aha! So I was right! ;)

[Dúnedain]

Don't forget, there was like 70 years or so that Bilbo had the ring (correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I am :D). So over that time, Gollum had ample time to find out that Bilbo was from the Shire, which would explain how he knew that during his torture in Mordor...

[Tolman Muggworts]

So actually Tolkien did not need to have thought out the Shire. He could have pieced it together when he wrote LOTR. I guess we'll have to go with the theory about Gollum hearing news of the Shire from other Stoors.

By the way nice semblence of Old Glory in asterisks.:D

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Tolman Muggworts
By the way nice semblence of Old Glory in asterisks.:D

*uses his best Elvis voice* Thank you, thank you very much :D

[Imric]

Originally posted by Dúnedain

Don't forget, there was like 70 years or so that Bilbo had the ring (correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I am :D).



Bilbo had the One Ring from TA 2941-3001, a period of some sixty years.

So over that time, Gollum had ample time to find out that Bilbo was from the Shire, which would explain how he knew that during his torture in Mordor...

If Gollum ever ventured near Dale in his travels (which I think he would have), he might have overheard mention of Bilbo's connection to the Shire while eavesdropping on the residents. Recall that Bilbo did travel to Dale after he left the Shire to settle at Rivendell so a few citizens might have had some knowledge of his homeland. Assuming Gollum tried to track Bilbo, Dale was as good and logical a place as any for him to start looking for the thief of his Precious.

[Bilbo]

Right, let's get this straight.
1: Gollum is from somewhere possibly in the Shire.
2: Bilbo is from the Shire
3: When Bilbo meets Gollum he mentions his name but not the Shire.

If I am correct, then perhaps either
1: Gollum followed Bilbo back towards the Shire (In a bit that Tolkein didn't write)
or
2: Tolkein forgot to write the important line in The Hobbit : 'I'm from the Shire'.

[Valandil]

But Gollum was NOT from the Shire.

The third post in this thread really takes care of the question - and it's right out of the second chapter of FotR.

Now... if you want to get into the migratory patterns of early hobbit-like creatures, you'll have to study the appendices and a few other sources.:)

[Beor]

I dont want to interrupt, but I was reading in The Return of the Shadow, from the HOME, and it said that the Hobbit was never supposed to have a sequel, it was supposed to be seperate from the larger myth, but people clamered for it, so he wrote LOTR, and he had to put the Hobbits somewhere. I would imagine that when he wrote the Hobbit, he really didnt think of them being too important to his myth, so he didnt think of a name for their country. I could be wrong too, but oh well.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Beor
I dont want to interrupt, but I was reading in The Return of the Shadow, from the HOME, and it said that the Hobbit was never supposed to have a sequel, it was supposed to be seperate from the larger myth, but people clamered for it, so he wrote LOTR, and he had to put the Hobbits somewhere. I would imagine that when he wrote the Hobbit, he really didnt think of them being too important to his myth, so he didnt think of a name for their country. I could be wrong too, but oh well.
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No. You're right. There's an interesting charting of the connection between The Hobbit and LOTR in Humprey Carpenter's "Biography" and detailed development in "Letters."

The Hobbit sequel just sort of got sucked into the legendarium and grew (a bit like topsy).:)