Depiction of Theoden's healing

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"Neither genuine hypnosis, nor variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and it's after impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers"

J.R.R. Tolkien
from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman
#210

I posted this just as the other thread got closed, so I reposted here. I thought everyone should read it since it's Tolkien's own perspective.

I think it ends the debate about the exorsism in the film.

[Elfhelm]

Starting this thread to continue the discussion of the difference between the book and the movie regarding Theoden.

I think the theme of listening to Gandalf is NOT as well-developed as I would like in the movies. I think having Theoden "posessed" instead of merely "influenced" by Saruman through Grima detracted from an important theme in many medieval and mythological tales. When you have one single point of decision such as a king or emperor, he better have a care who he takes as a counselor. Gandalf is the wise counselor throughout and is constantly shown in comparison with bad counselors.

Turning it into a continuation of the telekinetic staff battle was just Hollywood nonsense.

[edit] I see that squintyeyed started a thread after the closing of a previous thread. I think we are actually talking about two different things, though.

[Elfhelm]

SES, they say great minds think alike. :)

I am pretty certain, however, that quotes from Letters and books will not end debates since fiction and drama are different media and movie-makers have always altered stories when converting between them.

I suggest we keep the discussion here to exorcism and keep the discussion on my thread to the theme of "counseling".

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes, I think we were writing at the same time.

You are correct about letters not ending debates, I really only meant with respect to a specific poster who was arguing that the exorsism in the film was hinted to in the novel and expanded for the film. I think Tolkien's quote clears up that specific point.

Perhaps a mod could just insert my thread into yours and then the discussions will all be in one thread.

[hectorberlioz]

I'd like to keep in these discussions, unfortunately I think that the big part is over. But who can tell? with two certain people at each others throats, maybe the discussions will go on.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The whole scene in my opinion (like so many others) was just so over done. Grima's make-up? Theoden's Linda Blair look? and the whole Saruman flying backward scene. How about some subtlety?

Saruman was not done well in these films, in my opinion. He is a wonderful and complex character. The symbolism of his white robe fracturing into the entire spectrum was ignored, his ability to persuade was left unrealized, his real motivations toward the ring were reduced to nothing more than joining Sauron. What a missed opportunity. Lee had the voice to pull it off too.

[azalea]

I did merge the two threads, as they were addressing the same issue.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
The whole scene in my opinion (like so many others) was just so over done. Grima's make-up? Theoden's Linda Blair look? and the whole Saruman flying backward scene. How about some subtlety?

Subtelty isn't/wasn't Jackson's strong point. He went over the top in most things.

Saruman was not done well in these films, in my opinion. He is a wonderful and complex character. The symbolism of his white robe fracturing into the entire spectrum was ignored, his ability to persuade was left unrealized, his real motivations toward the ring were reduced to nothing more than joining Sauron. What a missed opportunity. Lee had the voice to pull it off too.
I agree - Saruman could have been so much more. Instead he was reduced down to Mordor's lackey.

I have made my statements on Theoden - the whole scene was ridiculous. One of the many scenes that will not be fixed by the extended edition.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
I did merge the two threads, as they were addressing the same issue.
I was wondering if they would be - or if one was just going to be closed.

[hectorberlioz]

Actuall on the whole I'd say saruman was the best done character in the movies. But you're right, tthey could have at least been more subtle. Saruman's flting backward was really...dumb.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Actuall on the whole I'd say saruman was the best done character in the movies. But you're right, tthey could have at least been more subtle. Saruman's flting backward was really...dumb.

I am not sure if dumb is the the right word. I think overly dramatic may be a better choice of words. I did not think of the fling as dumb, but just not right (if the goal was to keep the movie as close to the "spirit" of the book as possible when it was not practical to directly adapt material from book to film)

Ironically when I first saw the restoration of Theoden's "sanity" in TTT I started thinking about horror/monster films that had possessions and "supernatural" events. I guess this is a problem for me as someone that has watched/read too many other films/books.

[hectorberlioz]

Overly dramatic then. Dumb to put in the movie.

[Lizra]

The scene doesn't match the book, but I found it very entertaining. It was one of my fave bits in TTT movie.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
I am not sure if dumb is the the right word. I think overly dramatic may be a better choice of words.Are we talking about Saruman flying backwards in TTT or the reason why we've moved the discussion here from one thread to another?

[Elfhelm]

We are talking about Theoden, which is Anglo-Saxon for "prince". þeoden, to be precise, but maybe "prince" is not a precise translation, eh?

[Entlover]

The part that annoyed me -- in addition to the lack of subtlety -- was that his hair and fingernails magically shortened when he was exorcised. It made no sense.
You'd think Eowyn would have noticed that her uncle wasn't himself, and made some comment earlier.

[hectorberlioz]

Oh didnt you know that Theoden took up yoga and hygiene fitness while Gandalf excorcised him all the while?
Excercise and Excorcise

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Entlover
The part that annoyed me -- in addition to the lack of subtlety -- was that his hair and fingernails magically shortened when he was exorcised. It made no sense. You'd think Eowyn would have noticed that her uncle wasn't himself, and made some comment earlier. Clearly the possession of Theoden happened over a period of months so his deterioration into a senile old man was gradual. Thanks to Gandalf, his restoration was immediate and therefore obviously very dramatic.

Personally, I thought the exorcism worked but I would have preferred that it changed Theoden's eyes and made him suddenly look younger and more alive but without changing his scraggily beard or nails. He could have changed his complete appearance in the following scenes with the audience understanding he cleaned himself up.

[Lizra]

I just took the "magical" transformation as an example of "wizard magic". It's true, it's not that way in the book, but this type of "more simple" (dumbing down if you prefer to be harsh) interpretation was exciting for the movie (IMO) The bottom line was Theoden changed sides, to Gandalf's side of "good", which is where we all know the righteous king of the Rohirrim wanted to be. I didn't mind the "magical" special effects. (I thought they were rather entertaining :D )
Middle Earth ......a magic place or not? To a casual movie goer, I think the "magic" fits in well. Sometimes I think some of us expect too much from these movies. The huge, complex story... fantastic scenery and beauty...moving emotional acting, plus picking up all the interwoven, deep, "between the lines" themes of the story. For dedicated fans, (like many of us) these moving, complicated themes are the beauteous crux of the tale, but some people (particularly young veiwers) might find the "magic," mythological aspects of a land of elves, wizards, dwarfs, trolls etc to be very exciting. The fantasy genre thrives on these types of magical moments....doesn't it? :confused: The story, of course, can be interprepted as you wish. This is one version. IMO, it makes for fun movie veiwing. Bad baddies, righteous goodies, and lots of magic...cool! ;)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
...but some people (particularly young veiwers) might find the "magic," mythological aspects of a land of elves, wizards, dwarfs, trolls etc to be very exciting. The fantasy genre thrives on these types of magical moments....doesn't it? :confused: The story, of course, can be interprepted as you wish. This is one version. IMO, it makes for fun movie veiwing. Bad baddies, righteous goodies, and lots of magic...cool! ;)
As i have said - dumbed down the movie. There was no reason to dumb it down in my opinion other than Hollywood's arrogant attitude toward the general public. It could have been an intelligent movie - instead it was an action movie. The scene of Theoden's exorcism is just one example in MANY. Gandalf fought against Grima and had him crawling on his belly in the book - he didn't fight Saruman through Theoden. If Jackson was a true fan - he would have made an INTELLIGENT movie worthy of Tolkien.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Are we talking about Saruman flying backwards in TTT or the reason why we've moved the discussion here from one thread to another?

I was refering to Saruman flying backwards.

hectorberlioz,

My question on choice of word is more of a nitpick on my part. My problem of being at college with friends that tend to twist words that I would use. It tends to make me look for more precise words to use if I am able. (For me it is a never ending process ;))s

[hectorberlioz]

Lol, you phrase things better than me. So I'll follow your good example of choosing the right path in word phrasing.;)