Chapter 15, "Of the Noldor in Beleriand."

[Attalus]

Chapter 15, “Of the Noldor in Beleriand.�

Supplemental Readings:
The Book of Lost Tales II, Chapter III, “The Fall of Gondolin.�
The Shaping of Middle-Earth: "The Earliest Silmarillion," "The Quenta," and "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand"
The Lost Road: "Quenta Silmarillion" and "The Later Annals of Beleriand"
The War of the Jewels: “The Grey Annals,� 67 and 102; “The Later Quenta Silmarillion,� 99-102.

Any additions or corrections welcome.

Summary: A short Chapter (5 pages) but one that introduces to us the Kingdoms of Gondolin and Nargothond, and tells more about the older Hidden Kingdom, Doriath. Doriath was ruled by the Telerin Elwë Singollo, “Greymantle;“ called in Sindarin Elu Thingol. He was Lord of the Sindar, and married Melian the Maia; their daughter was Luthien the Fair. Turgon , whose wife was Elenwë (lost in the Crossing of the Helcaraxë) and his daughter Idril, was King of Gondolin. Turgon and Finrod are, of course, Noldor. The Chapter has two dramatic notes. In the beginning, after the account of the founding of Gondolin and Nargothond, little changed from the older accounts, we have Galadriel living in Doriath and talking with her friend Melian the Maia, and Melian questions her as to why the Noldor have come back to Middle-Earth, for she has guessed that they are not allowed to return, since no messages come from the Valar. She seems also to have guessed at the horror of the Kinslaying. Galadriel confirms that they left Valinor without the Valar's permission, and cannot return, but does not tell of the Kinslaying, the Oath, or the burning of the ships at Losgar. This seems odd to me, as Melian was her friend and hostess and the Sons of Fëanor quite the reverse; but, being wise as she was, perhaps she foresaw how this would inflame Thingol. He grew quite angry enough at the account of the Noldor leaving Aman to seek the return of the Silmarils, and the death of Finwë his friend. Melian makes two prophecies: that the Silmarils will not be recovered by the power of the Eldar, and that the swords and also the counsels of the sons of Fëanor would have two edges; meaning, I suppose, that they would be fell in battle, but crooked in words. Thingol, further inflamed by rumors, however, did not confront Galadriel about it, but her brothers Finrod and Angrod. Finrod apparently agreed with his sister and did not accuse his fellow Princes of the Noldor, but Angrod did not and told all of the truth, ending with the ringing declaration, "Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the name of kinslayers and traitors?" Thingol agreed, saying, however, that, though he would keep alliance with the Sons of Fëanor, that no-one in his realm would ever speak the language of the Noldor, that is, Quenya. It therefore became a language of lore, as Latin used to be, and Sindarin the spoken language of the Eldar of Middle-Earth.
Finally, and seemingly randomly, the Chapter ends with an odd little pair of paragraphs, detailing the visit of Galadriel to Nargothond to attend a feast of all of the family of Finarfin. Finrod has no wife, she notes, after the immemorial manner of sisters. Why? He replies, "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm remain that a son should inherit." The text notes that he loved Amarië of the Vanyar, who apparently declined to leave Valinor with him; as, of course, the Vanyar were notoriously fond of Valinor and the Valar.
Now, as SGH has noted on Another Forum, this is strange for a number of reasons. He says that he shall swear an oath, and we know that it will be to aid Beren, and he died of it. But, why, "too?" Like the sons of Fëanor? Perhaps that had been the subject of conversation right before Galadriel started her sisterly inquiries. He seems to foresee his death, and the reasons for it. Why, then, did he take the oath to Beren? Was it so that he would indeed be killed and be free to return to the Halls of Mandos, and on reembodiment be reunited with his beloved Amarië of the Vanyar? It was then noted that "Not since that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him," so, apparently before then he was not eating his heart out for Amarië. But, IMHO, then, he foresaw that he would indeed be reunited with his beloved by that route, despite the Ban of the Valar. Thoughts?
Another thing that struck me was the apparent disorder of JRRT’s early writings on this. At one point the even makes Luthien Turgon’s daughter. No wonder newbies get mixed up about Elven lineages.
Two great pictures of Finrod Felagund:
The Death of Finrod Felagund (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/a/n/anke/leithian6_elf.jpg.html) and Finrod Felagund. (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/l/i/lipatov/finrod.jpg.html)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Why, then, did he take the oath to Beren? Was it so that he would indeed be killed and be free to return to the Halls of Mandos, and on reembodiment be reunited with his beloved Amarië of the Vanyar? It was then noted that "Not since that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him," so, apparently before then he was not eating his heart out for Amarië. But, IMHO, then, he foresaw that he would indeed be reunited with his beloved by that route, despite the Ban of the Valar. Thoughts?Although it is true that this was the only way of returning to Valinor at that time, I'm not so sure that Finrod just decides to sacrifice himself for the sake of returning. There are places in the text that are very contradictory to itself. In the conversation that takes place between Finrod and Beren, for example, it says: "He listened to Beren's tale in wonder and disquiet, and he knew that the oath he had sworn had come upon him for his death as long ago he had foretold to Galadriel." But, when he goes to speak before his kingdom and they turn upon him because of the words of the sons of Feanor, it says: "he gave the crown of Nargothrond to Orodreth to govern in his stead." This implies to me that there was a possibility for his safe return from the quest of the Silmaril.. Very confusing.

Also, if he decided to sacrifice himself so that he could return to Amarie, how could he have known that she was still free for him to persue at that point? It does say however, in the HoMe that "He dwells with Amarie in Valinor."

Edited: Just to pic apart another piece of that text.

Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit."

But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.This is another one of those parts where Finrod seems to be sure that he will die, and even beyond, he sees the distruction of Nargothrond which occurs long after his death. So, how on the money was the foresight for Elves? Accurate always, or only sometimes?

I had always interpreted the cold thoughts to relate to perhaps the happiness that he never knew in Middle-earth, because Amarie did not come with him, and upon Galadriel's inquiry, brought an unhappiness and reminder of a loss that he had long left behind and tried to forget.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
Galadriel confirms that they left Valinor without the Valar's permission, and cannot return, but does not tell of the Kinslaying, the Oath, or the burning of the ships at Losgar. This seems odd to me, as Melian was her friend and hostess and the Sons of Fëanor quite the reverse; but, being wise as she was, perhaps she foresaw how this would inflame Thingol.Yes, I think Galadriel, and all the Noldor, wanted the truth to be hidden as long as possible, because they knew it would make the Sindar hostile against the Noldor, and that would only be to the benefit of Morgoth. And maybe they were ashamed. But I'm not sure whether this was wise of them, because the true story was likely to be known sooner or later, and from the point of view of the Sindar this secrecy would only add to their anger.Melian makes two prophecies: that the Silmarils will not be recovered by the power of the Eldar, and that the swords and also the counsels of the sons of Fëanor would have two edges; meaning, I suppose, that they would be fell in battle, but crooked in words. 'Two edges' could also refer to the later Kinslayings. Fëanor's sons had their own agenda, everyone who possessed a Silmaril became their enemies. no-one in his realm would ever speak the language of the Noldor, that is, Quenya. It therefore became a language of lore, as Latin used to be, and Sindarin the spoken language of the Eldar of Middle-Earth. Another reason was that the Noldor learned Sindarin much faster than the Sindar learned Quenya.
Why, then, did he take the oath to Beren? Was it so that he would indeed be killed and be free to return to the Halls of Mandos, and on reembodiment be reunited with his beloved Amarië of the Vanyar?I have also had thoughts along these lines. But I ended up rejecting them. It would be too selfish of Finrod to think in that way. And besides, how could he know that he would be allowed to be reincarnated in Aman?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Artanis
I have also had thoughts along these lines. But I ended up rejecting them. It would be too selfish of Finrod to think in that way. And besides, how could he know that he would be allowed to be reincarnated in Aman? Maybe he had foresight of that, too. I don't think that Finrod sacrificed himself, unless you conceive of that as doing his duty. He just saw the end coming and realized that his death would fulfill a noble purpose, and would result in being reunited with Amarië, as he had apparently long desired. Sort of a Noldor version of "when I die, I'll be with my beloved," but with more certainty. Isn't it said that the better and nobler the fëa, the less time is spent in the Halls of Mandos? As it indeed proved.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I had always interpreted the cold thoughts to relate to perhaps the happiness that he never knew in Middle-earth, because Amarie did not come with him, and upon Galadriel's inquiry, brought an unhappiness and reminder of a loss that he had long left behind and tried to forget. Another interpretation could be that until then his only reason not to marry was his love for Amarië, whom he at that time could not have. But as Finrod himself said to Andreth: "The life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory, and we would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end." So maybe he didn't feel so bad about leaving AmarÃ*ë back in Aman, he knew she would be better off there than in Beleriand. But when the foresight came upon him, suddenly he had another reason not to marry, a much darker reason.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
Maybe he had foresight of that, too. I don't think that Finrod sacrificed himself, unless you conceive of that as doing his duty. He just saw the end coming and realized that his death would fulfill a noble purpose, and would result in being reunited with Amarië, as he had apparently long desired. Sort of a Noldor version of "when I die, I'll be with my beloved," but with more certainty. Isn't it said that the better and nobler the fëa, the less time is spent in the Halls of Mandos? As it indeed proved. I think Finrod did sacrifice himself, for two reasons: First, because of the oath he had sworn, and second, because he knew how important it was for Beren to survive (foresight again?). I think these were his main reasons. Of course if he had any hope of being reunited with Amarië that would make his offer easier for him, so perhaps their love and her staying back in Aman was a part of a 'higher' design.

[Maedhros]

think Finrod did sacrifice himself, for two reasons: First, because of the oath he had sworn, and second, because he knew how important it was for Beren to survive (foresight again?). I think these were his main reasons. Of course if he had any hope of being reunited with Amarië that would make his offer easier for him, so perhaps their love and her staying back in Aman was a part of a 'higher' design.
I'm not sure about this. I think that FF went with Beren because of the Oath. I think that FF sacrificed himself for Beren because that was the kind of Elf that FF was, not to make things easier for him to return for Amarië. FF did it because he felt that it was the right thing to do. If it would have been another Man, I think he would still have done the same thing.
Hmmmm, I wonder if SGH would agree with me. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I'm not sure about this. I think that FF went with Beren because of the Oath. I think that FF sacrificed himself for Beren because that was the kind of Elf that FF was, not to make things easier for him to return for Amarië. FF did it because he felt that it was the right thing to do. If it would have been another Man, I think he would still have done the same thing.
Hmmmm, I wonder if SGH would agree with me. :D I do agree that that was the kind of Elf he was. I don't think it was his intention though to sacrifice himself. I think it was his hope that they could all come out of it alive and with the Silmaril, but I think he knew that it wasn't likely to happen, and his foresight pretty much made that clear to him, but he could still have hoped, because Elven foresight doesn't mean it's written in stone, right?

Something else I have been thinking about. In the Lay of Lethien, after the ten companions are dead, and Beren and Finrod are talking, Beren releases Finrod from his oath. I find that to be a strange time to do it. I mean what was Finrod going to do at that point. It wasn't like he would or could just say: okay, see ya. By that time, he was trapped with no escape, just like Beren, and he knew that without him, Beren would surely have died.

[Maedhros]

I don't think it was his intention though to sacrifice himself. I think it was his hope that they could all come out of it alive and with the Silmaril, but I think he knew that it wasn't likely to happen, and his foresight pretty much made that clear to him, but he could still have hoped, because Elven foresight doesn't mean it's written in stone, right.
I meant sacrifice in the way that he felt that he had more of a chance at surviving the battle that Beren would. I do think that FF was fighting with the purpose to win it.
Something else I have been thinking about. In the Lay of Lethien, after the ten companions are dead, and Beren and Finrod are talking, Beren releases Finrod from his oath. I find that to be a strange time to do it. I mean what was Finrod going to do at that point. It wasn't like he would or could just say: okay, see ya. By that time, he was trapped with no escape, just like Beren, and he knew that without him, Beren would surely have died.
That Lay is absolutely beautiful. Perhaps Beren had a foresight of what FF was going to do, and he was shamed that he had caused the death of FF. Just a thought.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That Lay is absolutely beautiful. Perhaps Beren had a foresight of what FF was going to do, and he was shamed that he had caused the death of FF. Just a thought.I actually got the impression in the Lay, that Beren was just so grieved by the torture and pain and suffering that they went through at Sauron's hand, that he may have even felt a bit guilty at that point for asking Finrod to aid him.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Something else I have been thinking about. In the Lay of Lethien, after the ten companions are dead, and Beren and Finrod are talking, Beren releases Finrod from his oath. I find that to be a strange time to do it. I mean what was Finrod going to do at that point. It wasn't like he would or could just say: okay, see ya. By that time, he was trapped with no escape, just like Beren, and he knew that without him, Beren would surely have died.But do you think Finrod thought himself to be free from the oath when Beren released him? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Maedhros
I meant sacrifice in the way that he felt that he had more of a chance at surviving the battle that Beren would. I do think that FF was fighting with the purpose to win it.That's true. He did slay the werewolf.

[Attalus]

I agree that Finrod did not know that he would die after slaying the werewolf; he still felt bound by his oath and was trying to protect Beren. I further agree that Beren felt guilty, and was saying, in effect, "If you have a chance to escape, take it, don't worry about me."

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
But do you think Finrod thought himself to be free from the oath when Beren released him? I don't think so. Oh absolutely not. I think at that point Finrod was bound to the oath and Beren's releasing him was a vain effort. However, I wonder if Beren had released him sooner, say, before they had been captured, would Finrod have accepted the release then.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
However, I wonder if Beren had released him sooner, say, before they had been captured, would Finrod have accepted the release then. Ah, have to think about that one, though I would say no by instinct.

But now I intend to leave my favourite fanfic characters by themselves for a little while :D (they'll be back in a later chapter also), and ask a question. I'm thinking about what Galadriel said to Melian, when she was asked about what woe was on the heart of her and and her kin:For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright.And Angrod in his first meeting with Thingol: ... but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor or and the oath of FëanorIt seems like Galadriel, and all of the Noldor with her, purposed to forget all about the past, keep quiet about it and pretend to the Sindar it didn't happen. There were reasons for doing so: loyalty to Fëanor and his sons, and not cause more dissensions between the Noldor and the Sindar as they needed to be united against Morgoth. Still I'm questioning their right to do this. Olwë was after all Thingol's brother, and the oath was too important to be hidden from the Sindar. What do you think about it?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Ah, have to think about that one, though I would say no by instinct.

But now I intend to leave my favourite fanfic characters by themselves for a little while :D (they'll be back in a later chapter also), and ask a question. I'm thinking about what Galadriel said to Melian, when she was asked about what woe was on the heart of her and and her kin:And Angrod in his first meeting with Thingol: It seems like Galadriel, and all of the Noldor with her, purposed to forget all about the past, keep quiet about it and pretend to the Sindar it didn't happen. There were reasons for doing so: loyalty to Fëanor and his sons, and not cause more dissensions between the Noldor and the Sindar as they needed to be united against Morgoth. Still I'm questioning their right to do this. Olwë was after all Thingol's brother, and the oath was too important to be hidden from the Sindar. What do you think about it? I think they didn't want to make waves. I don't think though that their silence had anything to do with loyalty to Feanor or his sons, as much as it did with loyalty to Fingolfin and his sons. Although the children of Finarfin did not take part in the Kinslaying, it says, that not all of the Noldor were guiltless, meaning the house of Fingolfin. There was never any doubt that Feanor and his sons were responsible for the whole thing. I think when the text says concerning Finrod being silent because he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor, it is refering more to the house of Fingolfin than Feanor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think when the text says concerning Finrod being silent because he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor, it is refering more to the house of Fingolfin than Feanor. You are likely to be right there. What do you think of Thingol's response? Not too bad, was it? :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
You are likely to be right there. What do you think of Thingol's response? Not too bad, was it? :D Inspite of my feelings for Thingol, I will have to agree. Many of Thingol's kin died in the Kinslaying, and it seems the worst thing to come out of him finding out, was the banning of Quenya. He still kept friendship with the second and third houses of the Noldor.

[Attalus]

Oddly enough, (or not so oddly, perhaps :p ) I was reading my new copy of the 3rd edition of Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-Earth, and I came across this passage: Oaths are commonly regretted in this story [The Tale of Beren]. Finrod's oath 'of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin' was made in gratitude and affection, but when it comes to the redeeming, he is sad for others rather than himself. What makes matters worse is that he has foreseen his own rashness long before, saying to Galadriel, 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm remain that a son should inherit.' How great this gratitude to overcome that foreboding; how much greater the disaster to quench that gratitude! I don't think I fully understand the last half of the last sentence, though.

[Sister Golden Hair]

How great this gratitude to overcome that foreboding; how much greater the disaster to quench that gratitude!Sounds like Shippy is saying his gratitude for being rescued in the battle by Barahur was more important to him than future consequences of the oath, but when the time came to fulfil the oath, it was a bitter pill to swallow, and was now more hard to deal with than being greatful for Barahur's aid and swearing the oath long before. I don't know. Does that make sense?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sounds like Shippy is saying his gratitude for being rescued in the battle by Barahur was more important to him than future consequences of the oath, but when the time came to fulfil the oath, it was a bitter pill to swallow, and was now more hard to deal with than being greatful for Barahur's aid and swearing the oath long before. I don't know. Does that make sense? Well, that certainly makes more sense than to assume that there was anything in the tale that indicates Finrod regretted the oath.But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all of his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. Then he spoke to Beren, saying: "I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long before I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in life or death, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell."

[Elvet]

I have a question about Finrod's oath to Beren. Could it be that it Finrod made it to ultimately distance himself from the doom of the Noldor and being further involved in the Kinslaying?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvet
I have a question about Finrod's oath to Beren. Could it be that it Finrod made it to ultimately distance himself from the doom of the Noldor and being further involved in the Kinslaying? I don't know about that. Finrod wasn't involved in the Kinslaying though. He was at the back of the great host, and the Kinslaying was already over, I believe, by the time he came upon it.

I'm not quite sure how he could have distanced himself from the Doom of the Noldor. The doom was layed upon all of them as they left Valinor. Finrod said something about it when he spoke to his people after they turned on him.

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977.

Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. If there be any on whom the shadow of our curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a begger that is thrust from the gates.

[Elvet]

I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.

Is the term 'Kinslaying' reserved for the elves of Valinor and the flight of the Noldor? Or would it also pertain to the fall of Doriath?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elvet
I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.Why would he take side against Dior? :confused:
Is the term 'Kinslaying' reserved for the elves of Valinor and the flight of the Noldor? Or would it also pertain to the fall of Doriath? There were three kinslayings: The first in Alqualondë, the second in Doriath between Fëanor's sons and Dior's people, and the third by the mouths of Sirion, again caused by Feanor's sons against Elwing and her people.

[Elvet]

Artanis, thank you for responding about the kinslaying. I had forgotten about the third example.
For some reason, I had assumed Fingon would have been bound to side with Feanor in his quest for the Silmarils. As I referred back to the book, I see now that he was against the oath, and accompanied the rest of the Noldor exodus for reasons other than the Silmaril recovery.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Why would he take side against Dior? Well had he lived and got that far, he would have been faced there with choosing sides, either of his mother's kin, (Dior) or his father's kin (the sons of Feanor) Not to mention that he was friends with Maglor and Maedhros, and harbored Celegorm and Curufin.

[Maedhros]

I'm not sure why the name of Fingon appeared in this thread, but there is an interesting quote about the motifs of the other Ñoldor who were not under Fëanor.
From Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

As he said with some justice: 'My brother's claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?' But Fingolfin answered: 'I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Fëanor seeks first his stolen treasures.'

[Elvet]

Oops, sorry! :o I meant to say Finrod in my last post.
Thanks for the reference, Maehdros. I have all the HoMe books, but have only read vol. 6 - 11.

[Maedhros]

That to me is a mistake Elvet to read them in that order, and this is why:
Home 1 - 5 consists of the older lore of the legendarium, the actual evolution of it. Because you have read Home 6-11, you would have had noticed the references that CT makes toward the older home books. In the case of Home 6-9, it doesn't matter that much because LOTR is almost independent (sense of the current story) of the Silmarillion, but there are certain tidbits that can be really helpful.
I think that by using this approach one learn about the evolution of the legendarium and how come it ended up like that.
In home 6 for example, when JRRT first introduces Glorfindel into the tale, he writes a note saying that he must explain the ancestry of Glorfindel:
From The Shadow of the Past: At Rivendell
Story of Gilgalad told by Elrond? Who is Trotter? Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.

These kinds of things, while being on the Published Silmarillion, don't have the clarity that one would get by reading the Home books.

[Artanis]

I'm trying to figure out why Ulmo chose to put those heavy dreams upon Finrod as well as Turgon that night by the river Sirion. Ulmo clearly has a plan involving Turgon and Gondolin, but what was the purpose with Finrod and Nargothrond, except for being a stronghold and a safe place?

[Attalus]

I think that Ulmo had foreknowledge of Morgoth's breaking of the siege and he sent the dreams for Turgon and Finrod to found strong, secret places. Finrod chose strength and inaccessibility over secrecy.

[Artanis]

Yes, that I understand. But if there was no other purpose, why choose Finrod, and not any of the other Noldorin princes?

Ulmo had this great plan with Turgon, Gondolin and Tuor. It makes me think that he had a purpose with Finrod too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, that I understand. But if there was no other purpose, why choose Finrod, and not any of the other Noldorin princes?

Ulmo had this great plan with Turgon, Gondolin and Tuor. It makes me think that he had a purpose with Finrod too. I'm not sure that there were any others to choose from. Fingolfin and Fingon had Hithlum. Turgon had Gondolin. Finrods brothers were guarding Ard-galen, so who does that leave but the sons of Feanor? Not the best choice with those guys.:)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Elvet
I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.
I doubt he would have taken any side if he could prevent it. He didn't swear the oaths of Fëanor and his sons, so he could perhaps have tried to remain neutral, had he had the chance to be around by then.

Originally posted by Artanis
I'm trying to figure out why Ulmo chose to put those heavy dreams upon Finrod as well as Turgon that night by the river Sirion. Ulmo clearly has a plan involving Turgon and Gondolin, but what was the purpose with Finrod and Nargothrond, except for being a stronghold and a safe place?
Interesting point. I suppose maybe because Finrod seemed to be one of the more level-headed of the Noldorin lords and not directly bound by the Oath.

Oh SGH, all this talk of Finrod made me see what you do see in your king of Nargothrond. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't he wonderful? (thud, drool):D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I'm not sure that there were any others to choose from. Fingolfin and Fingon had Hithlum. Turgon had Gondolin. Finrods brothers were guarding Ard-galen, so who does that leave but the sons of Feanor? Not the best choice with those guys.:) But at the time Finrod had his dreams, he was guarding the pass of Sirion, so in that respect he was not an obvious choice.

Perhaps it makes more sense to think that Ulmo foresaw the coming of Beren and Finrod's part in his quest.

This has become another Finrod thread. :p

[Attalus]

Since Tugon and Finrod were off on a tramp and sleeping by the River, Ulmo siezed his chance to warn those two about the coming danger, I guess.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Attalus
I think that Ulmo had foreknowledge of Morgoth's breaking of the siege and he sent the dreams for Turgon and Finrod to found strong, secret places. Finrod chose strength and inaccessibility over secrecy. I don't quite agree with this. Morgoth knew only the general region wherein Nargothrond lay until Turin's ill-fated bridge building and aggressive patrols. Even so, Ulmo sent messengers to Orodreth warning against Turin's policies of open warfare which were not heeded.

[Attalus]

True enough; it was "hidden" to that extent. Turin reminds me of that character in "L'l Abner" that walked around with a dark cloud over his head all of the time. Aragorn's cri du cour, "An ill fate is upon me this day and all my choices go amiss," could be Turin's epitath.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Maybe it was just that Ulmo knew that Finrod and Turgon were quite capable of establishing these strongholds and ruling them securely for many years. He was one of the Valar that did not forsake the Noldor in exile and constantly intervened to aid and guide them.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Attalus
Finally, and seemingly randomly, the Chapter ends with an odd little pair of paragraphs, detailing the visit of Galadriel to Nargothond to attend a feast of all of the family of Finarfin. Finrod has no wife, she notes, after the immemorial manner of sisters. Why? He replies, "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm remain that a son should inherit." [...] It was then noted that "Not since that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him,"

Sorry for coming back to this point, but I've just read the thread. While reading this, I recalled these two LOTR passagges:

All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

and

`Boromir, O Boromir!' he cried. `What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindórenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning?'

I found it curious that in both cases, Galadriel's presence brings to her partner a capacity for foreseeing. And in both cases the foreseeing is about the Doom of oneself.

So, following the parallel, we could suppose that, as in the case of the members of the Fellowship, Finrod too saw two possible roads behind him and he need of choosing. The shadowy road we already know, but what coud be Finrod's "something that he greatly desired"? I don't know, and that makes me think that we know very little of Finrod's heart.

[Attalus]

Thanks, FM, for that insight. I had forgotten that last quote; it gave me goosebumps. Galadriel says to Frodo: "Gently are you avenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." That seems to be one of her powers, telepathy; one she apparently shared with Elrond, and, of course, Gandalf. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro. She also tells Frodo that she is not a counselor, echoing his earlier quip to Gildor, "Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both yes and no." Perhaps her wisdom could be imparted, too, to show others the future, or at least possible futures. She was a pupil of Aulë, and she devised the Mirror. Surely she would have had to have that gift to imbue the Mirror with that power. Or, perhaps the Mirror was merely a way to convey her gifts of Foreseeing without causing the fear that her speaking directly to the viewer's mind would have. She says, "Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds."