Gollums fall *STORY SPOILERS* [Archive]

Alqualaure

10-13-2003, 03:01 PM

Hmmm... really? :confused:

I'm interested to know others' opinion on this one as well. Like you, I also only 'discovered' the books after I'd seen the movies. But I thought Gollum falling into the Cracks of Doom was brilliant on several levels.

Gollum had his part to play, for good or evil, right? (And both, I guess, as it came about...) He was hysterical at regaining his Precious - we all get a bit off balance when we're deliriously happy, right? And I thought it awfully fitting that Frodo succumbed to the Ring at the last - he was awfully strong, but - hmm, can I say "only human"? ("Only Hobbit"?! LOL) I think that showing this weakness in Frodo only made him a more magnificent hero - it made him "real" to me.

And Gollum... ooh, my thoughts are so deep on this that I really don't have time to give them justice at the moment - I'll have to ponder this some more... but my thought is that in his folly, Gollum redeemed himself. Does that make sense? Wish I had more time to explain myself, but I've got to post and run just now. Perhaps others can clarify my poorly written idea!

Anyone, anyone? ;)

Alqua :cool:

The Gaffer

10-13-2003, 03:17 PM

Yeah, Gollum has to have a part to play, because "the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

The mechanics of how he ends up in the Fire don't really matter; the important things are:
- Frodo claims the Ring for himself
- Sauron peppers his pants
- because of Gollum, the Ring goes in the Fire.

I agree that it wouldn't translate too well directly from the book to the screen, and they'll work up the final scene in a lot more detail.

Maybe we should open a book on it:
Evens: Frodo pushes Gollum in
2-1: Sam does the deed
4-1: Gollum falls in
250-1: Arwen flies in on Gwaihir, gives them all a stern talking-to and tosses the Ring in herself.

Tuor of Gondolin

10-13-2003, 03:26 PM

My first impression of Gollum's death was somewhat the same as Sween's (and like that of the end of the movie "Bridge over the River Kwai", where Alec Guinness seems to accidentally blow up the bridge.

But Tolkien seems to have had no problem with Gollum's end, even thinking it over. For example, in "Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" (#181) ""At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forebear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity.....He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a "grace", that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden."

Gollum's giving in to greed at that time and place, and backing away from Frodo (I think) after he had the ring would seem to have made his falling into the pit at least quite possible (and still better then that dumb River Kwai ending).

Lizra

10-13-2003, 05:40 PM

Man....couldn't you guys do a spoiler gray on this! :eek:

Elf Girl

10-13-2003, 07:17 PM

Why? This is a Tolkien forum; I think we can assume people have read the books!

I can't really articulate my feelings on the Gollum-falling business. I'll just say that the 'With a last wail Precious...' sentence was utter brilliance. *rereads and cries*

smaug_the_magnificent

10-13-2003, 09:16 PM

To increase believability (if that is indeed required) PJ may depict the ground giving way slightly, at the point where Gollum is frolicking about in mirth.. Let us remember that this all takes place on (an almost cantilevering) precipice, overlooking a tempestuous volcanic chamber. It's fair to say that their surroundings in this moment aren't exactly stable! Gollum might lose his bearings momentarily, and place his foot on an area which was about to crack anyway - and then, he loses his balance as the ground beneath him gives way & falls into the abyss..

Any manipulation with regards to this (for example, either of the two Hobbits pushing him in, or Gollum committing suicide or whatever) would completely destroy the whole premise of this cataclysmic & iconic scene. In this instance the effect cannot be reached by any other cause..

In terms of its merits as an ending (with respect to the One Ring), I think the Tolkien quote that the "Tuor of Gondolin" posted below explains & justifies the drama in the best way possible..

It is perfect !

Lanelf

10-13-2003, 11:55 PM

I don't know why, but I'd hate it if the ground gave way. I guess it's just so cliched.
Gaffer - Sauron peppers his pants??? Never heard that way before...
hey, I never even thought of Gollum throwing himself in.... hey, that might just seem kind of okay.
Lanelf.

Sheeana

10-14-2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Lanelf

hey, I never even thought of Gollum throwing himself in.... hey, that might just seem kind of okay.
Lanelf.

If he goes with that, I'll forgive him everything.

Blackheart

10-14-2003, 03:35 AM

I think there's something you're missing.

Gollum swore an oath.

On the precious itself, or nearby it.

Oaths are very powerful in and of themsleves, but ESPECIALLY in Nordic mythology.

And the ring, in and of itself is a very powerful object, arguably the most powerful in Arda, and certainly in middle earth.

Not to mention the volksung sagas, and the whole relation to rings and oaths.

There is no way in the seven levels of niffelhiem that Tolkein was unaware of this.

Gollum was doomed from the moment he betrayed his oath.

It was nothing more or less than fate that he fell, and likely assumed Frodo's place as a sort of sacrifice...

But yes, putting that into drama will be tricky.
Perhaps the best way would be fore the ring itself to respond somehow to the environment, like emiting a flash or something, and cause gollum to stumble back into the fire.

The Gaffer

10-14-2003, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by Blackheart
Gollum swore an oath.

That's true; I'd forgotten that. And later
Frodo curses him: "if you touch it again you will be cast into the fire yourself"

Whatever they do I hope they don't go for the landslide option.

Lanelf - apologies for the crudeness! The moment when Sauron realises what is going on in a moment of terrible clarity is another very powerful one from that scene and I hope they include it.

Is that better, Lizra?

smaug_the_magnificent

10-14-2003, 05:19 AM

Yes, the Oath that Gollum gave is important, but the kernel (the critical aspect) at least in term's of significance from the author's perspective, is the act of pity, the act of grace on Frodo's behalf..

Because if it was just the "oath" given on the Precious, then it could just as easily have been fulfilled if the Hobbits had done what perhaps 99% of people (or Hobbits) would have done to Gollum if the same situation was played over.. That is, killed him - or rendered him insignificant (tied him up, for example)

All of us can think of countless moments throughout the book, and copious (justifiable) reasons, to warrant Sam or Frodo taking decisive action against Gollum.. And such an act, would have satisfied the wrath from the oath he was destined to break.. Even after his greatest sin, the most treacherous deceit against those he swore to guide (in Shelob's tunnel), Sam is given more than one occasion to carry out the doomed & deserved fate of Gollum as unrepentant oathbreaker.. But ironically enough, it was pity again that stayed Sam's hand too - on Orodriun, not long before the final earth-shattering events inside the mountain were to occur..

To suggest exclusively that the cause for Gollum's death *at that moment* was rooted in a dogmatic divine law about oathbreakers (however pertinent that may be) takes away what in my opinion saves Frodo in the eyes of the reader also.. Fate is intertwined with free will and the former illustrates Gollum's doom from the outset, while the latter indicates that even the very small, can alter the wheels of the world.. It is unequivocal, that without Frodo's compassion & understanding, Gollum would have been slain long before the drama of Orodruin took place, and as a result the fate of the Ring & of the world would have been cast into grave doubt...

Therefore Gollum's inability to keep his word or honour is not what saved Frodo or the Quest, because the passage of justice in this sphere is indiscriminate - (finite) justice of course, is not... Critically, the "passage" still needed to be determined, and it was only through perhaps the most significant virtue or quality of the human spirit, forgiveness, that this passage was sown, & through that, Middle Earth was in a way itself forgiven, and redeemed, saved..

I like the idea of the Ring awakening so to speak, in the film.. Certainly considering the way PJ has magnified the Ring's power (even in Bree!) ;) there's little doubt that when the Ring is exposed in the chamber of its making, ****'s going to hit the fan! I think going back to my point about the ground underneath Gollum shifting.. I did say *slightly* .. I don't propose a massive slab falling from under him, but just a small crack that helps make his fall more believable (from a film's point of argument).. If Gollum were to just dance in delight & then lose his footing & fall as a result, this mightn't come across in the best way on screen.. A combination of his delirious state, the loose ground under foot, and the Ring itself becoming autonomous in some sort of vociferous outburst, will perhaps highlight & delineate the fall of Gollum more satisfactorily.. All in all, the nuts & bolts of how he comes to fall into the abyss are irrelevant.. It is the quick succession of amazing events (unlooked for) at this pivotal moment, all together, that creates the most incredible drama you're ever likely to read - and you'd be a fool to question or doubt whether this apex will carry an effect of similar weight on screen.. I think it's made for cinema actually!

Lizra

10-14-2003, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Why? This is a Tolkien forum; I think we can assume people have read the books!

I can't really articulate my feelings on the Gollum-falling business. I'll just say that the 'With a last wail Precious...' sentence was utter brilliance. *rereads and cries*

This IS the "Movie" discussion of the forum, Eg.

Lizra

10-14-2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by The Gaffer
That's true; I'd forgotten that. And later
Frodo curses him: "if you touch it again you will be cast into the fire yourself"

Whatever they do I hope they don't go for the landslide option.

Lanelf - apologies for the crudeness! The moment when Sauron realises what is going on in a moment of terrible clarity is another very powerful one from that scene and I hope they include it.

Is that better, Lizra?

I like it! :) Thanks!
We are in the movie forum, there are probably people visiting who have not read the books. To just flat out blab the finale is.......somewhat icky! ;) (IMO)
A man saw me reading RoTK at my son's karate class. He said...."Hey! Does the little dude make it?" I wouldn't tell! :)

The Gaffer

10-14-2003, 09:15 AM

Yes, I suppose we presume that everyone in the known universe knows the ending from the books.

However, that's no guarantee the films will follow the it to the letter. Seeing how the films are different from the books is one of the reasons for going to see them (e.g. I liked Arwen's expanded role).

Would anyone seriously think that Sauron would get the Ring and plunge the world into eternal darkness???

Artanis

10-14-2003, 10:11 AM

There is no way you can handle this differently from the book and not destroy the essence of the power of the Ring. No one is able to destroy the Ring! Not Frodo, not Sam, not Gollum. Unless it happens by an accident. And we know that 'Gollum may still have a part to play yet, for good or ill'. Frodo's pity must have a bearing! And there's the oath, as has been said already.
Originally posted by The Gaffer
(e.g. I liked Arwen's expanded role). :eek:

Sween

10-14-2003, 10:26 AM

I would not be too surprised if Gollum acctually casts himself into the fire to stop Sauron gaining the ring! I know Tolkien toyed with this idea for some time before decideding upon the ending he did.

I just hope they find some more believeiable way for Gollum to fall into the fire because i feel it will just be anti climatic :(

smaug_the_magnificent

10-14-2003, 10:52 AM

I know it's difficult but there's really no way they can conceivably toy with scenarios in relation to Gollum's fall & how that comes about, without risking one of the foundation stones of the story..

At the same time I think it would be prudent for me to say there's of course the possibility of different avenues so far unforseen by myself that could allow the same effect while maintaining the link between Frodo's acquiescence towards the treacherous character who inadvertently saves the world..

Even a relatively minor variance like, for example - let's say Sam, after seeing the drama unfold & Gollum arresting the One Ring from Frodo, decides to charge at Gollum.. Gollum then balks momentarily at the sight of Sam charging towards him, and as a result loses his footing which causes him to fall. It may seem a trivial change, I guess mainly because if this were to play out then you could still conclude that Gollum wasn't pushed, but fell after he lost his balance (much the same as in the books)

BUT, to me, the role of Sam in this hypothetical is far too great to disregard as it subsequently throws the whole interplay that Tolkien was cleverly building towards upside down! Without the charge of Sam the One Ring probably would have endured, & everything come to ruin & loss. The intervention from a character who'd wanted Gollum dead long ago would as a consequence, in a strange twist of fate, allow that same character to get what he had wanted all along.. I guess in a sense there's similarities between the aforesaid hypothetical & what actually happened at least in terms of fate, but I think I'm right in saying it's the kind of fate Tolkien didn't want shown or had any interest in portraying..

Sam wanted to do the practical level-headed thing in relation to Gollum, whilst Frodo was intent on doing the righteous & fair thing, and in the end The Lord of the Rings wanted to teach us that the latter gives us the greater rewards (sometimes, unlooked for!)

The Gaffer

10-14-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Artanis
:eek:
Sorry, I should've marked that as a spoiler too.;) But it was well worth sacrificing Glorfindel, and putting up with the rather flimsy chase to the Fords, to see Liv Tyler in pointy ears. *ducks*

Very well put, Smaug. It will be disappointing (indeed, suicidal on PJ's part) if the ending loses this twist.

Of course, it's not the actual ending of the story, is it? To me, the full exposition of this theme is in the Scouring and the Grey Havens chapters (Frodo's pacificism and his loss). I wonder whether/how these bits will be worked in.

Black Breathalizer

10-14-2003, 12:00 PM

The key to making the ending work is for it to feel natural and organic -- perhaps even biblical (ala Gandalf's charge in TTT) -- and to avoid at all costs making it feel fakey in any way.

Sween

10-14-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
I know it's difficult but there's really no way they can conceivably toy with scenarios in relation to Gollum's fall & how that comes about, without risking one of the foundation stones of the story..

At the same time I think it would be prudent for me to say there's of course the possibility of different avenues so far unforseen by myself that could allow the same effect while maintaining the link between Frodo's acquiescence towards the treacherous character who inadvertently saves the world..

Even a relatively minor variance like, for example - let's say Sam, after seeing the drama unfold & Gollum arresting the One Ring from Frodo, decides to charge at Gollum.. Gollum then balks momentarily at the sight of Sam charging towards him, and as a result loses his footing which causes him to fall. It may seem a trivial change, I guess mainly because if this were to play out then you could still conclude that Gollum wasn't pushed, but fell after he lost his balance (much the same as in the books)

BUT, to me, the role of Sam in this hypothetical is far too great to disregard as it subsequently throws the whole interplay that Tolkien was cleverly building towards upside down! Without the charge of Sam the One Ring probably would have endured, & everything come to ruin & loss. The intervention from a character who'd wanted Gollum dead long ago would as a consequence, in a strange twist of fate, allow that same character to get what he had wanted all along.. I guess in a sense there's similarities between the aforesaid hypothetical & what actually happened at least in terms of fate, but I think I'm right in saying it's the kind of fate Tolkien didn't want shown or had any interest in portraying..

Sam wanted to do the practical level-headed thing in relation to Gollum, whilst Frodo was intent on doing the righteous & fair thing, and in the end The Lord of the Rings wanted to teach us that the latter gives us the greater rewards (sometimes, unlooked for!)

Your arguement is both pointless and stupid allthough it is a fact that by letting Gollum live the ring is ultimtaly destroyed. The Ring is neither destroyed by Frodo or Sam but is destroyed when dancing round like a fool Gollum slips and falls. I have allways found this deeply unsatifying! It just would not transfer well to film and leave many with a sour taste in there mouth! As for the setting up of pity and oath breaking i also think that silly. Pity has been touched upon in the movie very well i think and will still hold through dont forget that sam also gets his chance to show pity to Gollum just before the cracks of doom.

A minor change like having Gollum forced into the fire by either fighting with Frodo or Sam (i suspect the ring will go into the fire as a direct result of Frodo and Gollums fight, leaving sam to call frodo back and drag him away from the ring) would be much more satisfing than having him dancing round and slipping (i never held slipping as something Gollum would do)

Tuor of Gondolin

10-14-2003, 01:00 PM

Actually, thinking it over, I think Gollum deliberately leaping into the pit would be a good movie version. it wouldn't really be suicide, because he'd know he would be toast once Sauron got the ring and he would above all deny it to the Dark Lord. Plus it could also, in his mind, be a way of also saving Frodo, and would be an affirmation of the wisdom of Frodo's insight vis-a-vis Gollum.

After all, I think somewhere in the book Gollum says something like. "He musn't get the precious. He'll eat up the whole world."

And in "Letters" #246 JRRT speculates on what might have happened if Sam hadn't unintentionally blundered with Gollum. "If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum things might have turned out differently in the end......
The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to meet Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle would have gone on between his repentence and his new love on one side and the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe by conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself into the fiery abyss."

Insidious Rex

10-14-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
To increase believability (if that is indeed required) PJ may depict the ground giving way slightly, at the point where Gollum is frolicking about in mirth.. Let us remember that this all takes place on (an almost cantilevering) precipice, overlooking a tempestuous volcanic chamber. It's fair to say that their surroundings in this moment aren't exactly stable! Gollum might lose his bearings momentarily, and place his foot on an area which was about to crack anyway - and then, he loses his balance as the ground beneath him gives way & falls into the abyss..

isnt this how it was depicted in the cartoon version? lava light and ground shaking and chaos everywhere and woops!

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
Even a relatively minor variance like, for example - let's say Sam, after seeing the drama unfold & Gollum arresting the One Ring from Frodo, decides to charge at Gollum.. Gollum then balks momentarily at the sight of Sam charging towards him, and as a result loses his footing which causes him to fall.

yeah ive had this indiana jones over the cliff image for a while where sam AND gollum go over. Frodo, dazed and out of it peers over the edge and laments the loss of his dear friend only to hear "mr. frodo... mr. frodo!" and theres sam dangling off the edge of the cliff, his elven cloak snagged on a low hanging rock.

ok ok... stop throwing tomatoes

Blackheart

10-14-2003, 01:55 PM

"To suggest exclusively that the cause for Gollum's death *at that moment* was rooted in a dogmatic divine law about oathbreakers (however pertinent that may be) takes away what in my opinion saves Frodo in the eyes of the reader also.. Fate is intertwined with free will and the former illustrates Gollum's doom from the outset, while the latter indicates that even the very small, can alter the wheels of the world.. It is unequivocal, that without Frodo's compassion & understanding, Gollum would have been slain long before the drama of Orodruin took place, and as a result the fate of the Ring & of the world would have been cast into grave doubt..."

Actually I find that the fact that Frodo succumbs to the ring at the edge of the fire, and claims it as his own to be more indicitive of the power of the ring and it's ultimate destruction than any pity he might have shown to Gollum. The ring has it's own destiny, and there are forces outside the influence of the ring at work. The oath is a demonstration of how those outside forces are able to affect even the ring itself.

"Therefore Gollum's inability to keep his word or honour is not what saved Frodo or the Quest, because the passage of justice in this sphere is indiscriminate - (finite) justice of course, is not... Critically, the "passage" still needed to be determined, and it was only through perhaps the most significant virtue or quality of the human spirit, forgiveness, that this passage was sown, & through that, Middle Earth was in a way itself forgiven, and redeemed, saved.."

Which to me, would give one pause to consider where the idea of showing compassion originated. Gandalf, as the representative of the outside forces, was the one who reinforced the idea of compassion for Golum to Frodo, and the vague premonition that he would have a future part to play.

Bah, this is a pain, having to refrain from talking about the ending or pu spoiler marks all over.. I'll go somewhere I can discuss things without worrying about people who haven't bothered to read the books yet. :rolleyes:

Black Breathalizer

10-14-2003, 02:07 PM

Andy Sirkus mentioned in one interview I read that the scene at the cracks of doom took a long time to practice and film before Jackson thought they had it right.

How about this scenario:
Gollum takes the ring (as depicted in the book) but once the feat is accomplished, in his eagerness to remove the finger from the ring, he fumbles it. He frantically reaches out to save it from dropping into the pit and loses his balance, falling in himself. Our last camera shot of the falling Gollum is the look of sheer delight which sweeps across his face as he holds the ring and cries out, "my preciousssssssssssssssssssssssssssss"

Sween

10-14-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Andy Sirkus mentioned in one interview I read that the scene at the cracks of doom took a long time to practice and film before Jackson thought they had it right.

How about this scenario:
Gollum takes the ring (as depicted in the book) but once the feat is accomplished, in his eagerness to remove the finger from the ring, he fumbles it. He frantically reaches out to save it from dropping into the pit and loses his balance, falling in himself. Our last camera shot of the falling Gollum is the look of sheer delight which sweeps across his face as he holds the ring and cries out, "my preciousssssssssssssssssssssssssssss"

I could see that happening and you know what i think thats better than the way he does fall in the book :p ! As ive said allready a very disapointing end and will be terriable if filmed as written

Dúnedain

10-14-2003, 04:59 PM

Here is another way it could happen. Considering that Gollum jumps to bite the ring off of Frodo's finger and succeeds, maybe when he does that he also mistakenly falls over the cliff edge.

Ultimately there are a ton of ways this can play out. This is going to be one of the major climaxes of the movies and considering the action sequences thus far I doubt very highly this will be some lame end to Gollum and the ring. Even if it stays on course with the way it is written, I'm sure it will translate better on screen.

Also, one thing I want to touch on regarding "pity". I've seen many people attributing "pity" to the characters for not killing Gollum. But let's take this a step further, what is the resultant of this pity? Well, knowing what we all know, the "pity" stays the hands of Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. But why them? Here is why. The times when the "pity" stays the hands of each is after they have themselves tasted the power of the ring. They don't necessarily "pity" Gollum himself and the down trodden creature he is. They pity Gollum for what they could each become. They pity him because they see a part of themselves in him. They pity him because they all have a common bond, that bond is the ring. So I wouldn't necessarily describe this as being pure pity for Gollum's state, I think you can attribue that pity as a self-revelation of this common bond between themselves and Gollum. That is the true fate of things in my opinion. Of course this is only my interpretation of this, but I will contend that you can draw more conclusions out on the fate and pity levels from this simple bond between those characters...

Black Breathalizer

10-14-2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Bilbo, Frodo and Sam...don't necessarily "pity" Gollum himself and the down trodden creature he is. They pity Gollum for what they could each become. They pity him because they see a part of themselves in him. They pity him because they all have a common bond, that bond is the ring. So I wouldn't necessarily describe this as being pure pity for Gollum's state, I think you can attribue that pity as a self-revelation of this common bond between themselves and Gollum.Great post, Dúnedain. One could argue that pure pity is meant to be an emotion where we look at a person less fortunate than ourselves and think, "there by the grace of God go I..." Condescension has been treated as pity so often in our modern society that some people mistake it for the real deal.

Heather Wooltoes

10-14-2003, 06:40 PM

I still want to know how a critter with only six teeth (see Hobbit)bites off a finger to begin with.

Tuor of Gondolin

10-14-2003, 06:58 PM

Maybe Sauron had a really good dentist.

But seriously (sort of) did it say which six teeth? If uppers/lowers matched it might not be a problem. At least in the movie he had no problem tearing into fish and conies (at least until Sam spoiled them). So biting off a hobbit's ring finger shouldn't be such a big deal. And the teeth were probably in great condition from all those years of eating only fish and young goblins.

smaug_the_magnificent

10-14-2003, 09:44 PM

[i]
Your arguement is both pointless and stupid allthough it is a fact that by letting Gollum live the ring is ultimtaly destroyed.

Haha !! Excellent counter-argument! :rolleyes: Oh, digress, please ?? I like it when the philistine try to explain themselves !!

Whether or not what directly caused Gollum's fall as it is described in the books will transfer onto screen in an admissible fashion is to my way of thinking not at all the point... I'm quite confident that the film makers can construe the scene in such a way to achieve *that* appropriate emotional impact - but the foundation structure of how it comes to be; that is, the fact that Gollum falls only by *accident* without the added help of Frodo or Sam, is the only way the intricate interconnection of contrasting forces & beliefs that have hitherto played out, can be fulfilled..
I think those who question the validity of Gollum's demise resulting from a momentary loss of equilibrium, do well to ignore the magnitude of Gollum's 500 year old addiction, and the magnitude of the Ring's appeal.. Perhaps the desire to posses the Ring can only be fully appreciated by someone who has fallen victim to the scourge of heroin, cocaine or the like in real life.. The long years (cold-turkey) that Gollum has had to endure, compounded his moment of mindlessness as what was looking a complete impossibility (having the precious in his grasp again) suddenly became a reality, catapulting him into a delirious state of uncontrolled hilarity.. Amidst the precarious setting of the BOWER OF A VIOLENT VOLCANIC MOUNTAIN, call me CRAZY but I reckon it's possible for someone in such a state, who's also a top a precipice, to come unstuck in the way Gollum ultimately did.. I reckon it's equally plausible for a film maker to depict the aforesaid scene in a reasonably satisfying manner!

It is not just PITY that stays their hand!! For God's sake, they as rationale & ethical beings, come to realise that killing, the taking of another's life, is wrong.. Frodo lays down his sword, and declares that no more blood shall be spilt on his account. Even under such circumstances, the murder of Gollum at the hands of any of the Hobbits would have been unpalatable.. Imagine reading the book, and in the scene where Sam is carrying Frodo up the mountain, is suddenly struck across the head.. Gollum tries one last time to take the Ring from Frodo but he casts him away with that prescient threat - he then marches on alone while Sam is left with the retched, emaciated, utterly beaten creature.. He is at last given the perfect opportunity to satisfy his insatiable wrath & destroy Gollum once & for all.. Just imagine reading a different account, this time of Sam giving in to his hate, & stabbing him (multiple times) or beating him over the head repeatedly with a club or strangling him to death ?? ...Hmm, not nice at all.. There's no doubt in my mind, it just wouldn't be right, to take his life - even after all he had done.. It wouldn't have *felt* right, as a reader, listening to a description of the murder of Gollum at the hands of Sam.. In essence, it would have been wrong.

Just because an evil creature such as Gollum, would likely have throttled the Hobbits given half the chance, doesn't make it right to deal out your own judgement through death, through arbitrary murder..

smaug_the_magnificent

10-14-2003, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Blackheart
"To suggest exclusively that the cause for Gollum's death *at that moment* was rooted in a dogmatic divine law about oathbreakers (however pertinent that may be) takes away what in my opinion saves Frodo in the eyes of the reader also.. Fate is intertwined with free will and the former illustrates Gollum's doom from the outset, while the latter indicates that even the very small, can alter the wheels of the world.. It is unequivocal, that without Frodo's compassion & understanding, Gollum would have been slain long before the drama of Orodruin took place, and as a result the fate of the Ring & of the world would have been cast into grave doubt..."

Actually I find that the fact that Frodo succumbs to the ring at the edge of the fire, and claims it as his own to be more indicitive of the power of the ring and it's ultimate destruction than any pity he might have shown to Gollum. The ring has it's own destiny, and there are forces outside the influence of the ring at work. The oath is a demonstration of how those outside forces are able to affect even the ring itself.

Huh ?? I wasn't talking about the merits of the Ring's power or suggesting that Frodo's compassion was a result of the Ring's *coercive* qualities ...I think it played a part in his *understanding* of Gollum's disposition & his lack of cynicism as compared with Sam; but the way in which Frodo behaved towards Smeagol is indicative of his basic character, articulated throughout the book.. He is an ethical, intelligent, sagacious Hobbit who would have acted similarly under any circumstance..

Yes, Frodo's inability to destroy the Ring of Power is undoubtedly the most palpable sign of the Ring's awesome autonomy.. But surely that's a different argument, and one I haven't touched on in this thread so far.

"Outside forces?" yes, indeed! And aren't Frodo's actions, & indeed Sam's, outside forces, not directly related to the Ring & its anecdotal destiny, but simultaneously an influence on the Ring's final outcome? How do we know the Ring had its own set-in-stone destiny anyway? Quite frankly, we don't.. As I've said, the oath dictum relates to Smeagol & his own fate.. While the power of the Ring probably meant that if the oath were broken then whoever failed in this respect was doomed.. But that didn't for a moment foreshadow or influence the Ring's doom itself!! Instead the Ring's downfall may or may not have been bound up in another fate, as well as through what we already know.. This being that free will had its own part to play in the Ring's destruction too.. The admirable *choices* of Frodo, Sam, Gandalf & Bilbo, were instrumental in what came about.. I reject strongly the claim made here that "pity" was given under some pseudo influence of the Ring.. Yes, in modern times "pity" is often used in a patronising context, but try telling Tolkien that the "pity" he wrote about through his characters was not of the genuine kind!!
Gollum's presence at the end was I suppose of his own making too, but he seemed more under the auspices of fate than the others.. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that even the so-called *choices* that he made along the way, were influenced in some way by the Ring.. To his credit though, there were instances when he could have murdered the Hobbits sooner, but didn't (when Smeagol was for a short while the dominant personality)

Really, there is always a grey area when trying to distinguish fate & free will, so it's very difficult to recognise the two sometimes & arguments can usually be made for either or. In the end we often just don't know..

It's not out of the realms of possibility to make the *accidental* book-version fall of Gollum seem viewable on screen! To just write it off out of hand (as one or two or you seem to be intimating at) would be utterly frivolous, as it would be to underestimate PJ before we've even seen the film.. For starters, no one who is unaware of the book ending will have foreseen it!

Tolkien's letters about "what ifs" concerning the drama which unfolded in the cracks of Orodriun, are interesting, but don't waver my belief that the scene couldn't have been played out in any other way.. He was just doing (or more likely responding to) something that's marinated in the minds of all Lord of the Rings' aficionados over the years.. What if Sam did this instead of that, what if Gollum didn't slip, what if Frodo had over powered Gollum, repeat ad nauseam.. It doesn't detract from Tolkien's own *fate*, (if you will..)

smaug_the_magnificent

10-15-2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Sween
it is a fact that by letting Gollum live the ring is ultimtaly destroyed....

The Ring is neither destroyed by Frodo or Sam but is destroyed when dancing round like a fool Gollum slips and falls.

Hmmm, you don't say ? ...fumbling around in the dark - I mean, what's one got to do with the other aye ? :rolleyes:

smaug_the_magnificent

10-15-2003, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin

After all, I think somewhere in the book Gollum says something like. "He musn't get the precious. He'll eat up the whole world."

And in "Letters" #246 JRRT speculates on what might have happened if Sam hadn't unintentionally blundered with Gollum. "If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum things might have turned out differently in the end......
The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to meet Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle would have gone on between his repentence and his new love on one side and the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe by conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself into the fiery abyss."

It is interesting that he intimates about Gollum's "new love & his repentance" on the one side, assuming he speaks of Frodo here (versus the Ring).. From what I've always understood when reading the books, by this stage the "Gollum side" had clearly won the internal battle & could not possibly like, love or trust Frodo anymore..
Hmmm, well, considering these comments from the master, perhaps that's not so.. Maybe Gollum could have been saved after all - and just maybe, therein lies a "way out", an alternative route of some sort, for Peter Jackson & his Return of the King film, during the pivotal cracks of doom scene?? Not that PJ would read much of Tolkien's letters though !
:rolleyes:

Sween

10-15-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
Hmmm, you don't say ? ...fumbling around in the dark - I mean, what's one got to do with the other aye ? :rolleyes:

The point is it is one thing to show pity and stay your hand but its another to show it when they have claimed what they wanted.

I was never argueeing againt the point that they should let Gollum live to the point of the cracks of doom but once Gollum has the ring by a violent act none less i think a bit of help in his fall would make a lot more sence

Black Breathalizer

10-15-2003, 07:58 AM

While the books can give the story much more depth, the films are better at illuminating many aspects of the story such as the Ents attack on Isengard, the epic scale of the battles, and, I suspect, Gollum's fall.

azalea

10-15-2003, 02:37 PM

I agree with STM, having Frodo or Sam in ANY WAY be responsible for or "help" the Ring go in would COMPLETELY change things and be unacceptable IMO. The only thing I'd accept as plausible would be the ground shaking theory. In the book Gollum is hopping around and STEPS BACK into the pit, he doesn't slip. He isn't being cautious while he's too close to the edge, because as people stated, he's overcome with insane glee, he really doesn't care about his life, what's happening around him, NOTHING except for possession of the Ring. He wasn't trying to get out, he felt no sense of danger, he was already victorious, and he stepped backwards and over he went. If PJ adds some earthquake effects, that would be fine and realistic. Sam charging at Gollum? No way!:mad:
I CAN see that we might have Frodo going over the edge and Sam pulling him up, but his going over the edge would only be a result of the earthquake, or being knocked accidentally be Gollum or something like that, NOT because he is still fighting Gollum. I predict whatever it looks like, it will be fantastic.

Regarding spoilers: I know that we're all "giving away" the ending for those who haven't read the book yet, but after all this IS a board about the "works of Tolkien," so even in the movie forum we should be able to assume that people reading the posts are at least in the process of reading the book. I don't think we should have to use the spoiler code for STORY elements, but should use it for movie spoilers (things that happen differently, like Saruman dying on a wheel; or for the way scenes look, etc., that would give us ahead of time a picture of the way the scene will look).
That being said, I think I will add something to the title of the thread indicating spoilers, and if similar threads are started, please do the same. I think people visiting this board that haven't read the books should be on their guard anyway. We can warn them in a general way, but it would be silly for us to have to use the code for every post in this thread! Let's just say this is a spoiler thread, and then post freely.:)

Lizra

10-15-2003, 03:26 PM

Good idea. :)

azalea

10-15-2003, 03:30 PM

I forget if this is the thread where Gollum's teeth were mentioned, but don't forget they are very sharp, and gums can be just as strong and painful (just ask a nursing mother:eek: ) because of the strength of the jaws compressing. He could have TORN the finger off while biting with the six sharp teeth -- ouch!

Elfhelm

10-15-2003, 03:50 PM

Humor alert:

How about this one? The fat, stupid hobbit finds the nine-fingered hobbit cowering in fear at the final victory of the magnificent Stoor! Suddenly the fat, stupid hobbit is attacked from behind by the crafty Stoor. Now he will die for all the misery he has caused us. The fat fish-cooker throws himself backward into the wall, moentarily knocking the wind from the great lord. Grabbing at each other's hands the ring falls free and rolls toward the Crack of Doom. The exposed, emaciated Gollum makes a pathetic dive inadvertently hitting the One Ring so that it rolls even faster towards the Crack. He jumps again, grasps the Ring with one hand and Sam's leg with the other. Now he is hanging over the precipice. Smeagol pleads to be saved. Sam can't change who he is. He tries to pull the pitiable creature out. But suddenly Gollum comes back and tries to pull Sam over the edge. Sam kicks out "I.. have had ... enough ... of YOU!" And breaks free of Gollum's grasp. As he falls, Smeagol returns and cries Nooooo...

hehehe apologies to all you Trekkies out there. ;)

Serious response:

Once again we see Tolkien in later life putting a different spin on events than what he wrote. I just think he was a different man then and his opinions are therefore just one interpretation. I think the younger Tolkien knew the cost of breaking oaths.

Ainaromenel

10-20-2003, 08:29 PM

First of all I have to say that anyone who hasn't read the books and is going purely off the movies and is seriously wanting everything to be a surprise would be cautious enough that they would enter threads with titles that are blatenly obvious are not going to be giving away anything. That's just me though, and if you do not want to know extra stuff, I wouldn't read my response. I am not covering up stuff, so beware!

I would say the idea of Gollum loosing his ballance and falling over the edge is awesome and I think it would translate well to the screen. It shows an underlying theme in the books, that the small rises up and beats the bigger foe. Gollem was probably seeking after the ring in his own lust for it second only to Sauron. Sauruman really didn't know what it did, and was not so attatched to it as the other two, and all the Nazgul were only seeking it because they had to, to serve Sauron. Out of Sauron and Gollem, clearly Gollem is weaker, but isn't it ironic that the little pathetic creature ends up getting it back, rather than the monsterous dark lord? I think that's great in of itself. But then the fact that the ring itself is not boldly thrown over by Frodo or Sam (or even Arwen;) ), but rather Gollem accidentally slips and falls over. I think the only way the Ring of Power could have been destroyed in a more humble way is if it slipped off someone's hand and rolled off the precipe. I wouldn't have thought it nessecary, but obvious it is to say that Gollem accidentally fell. Yeah, the lust was eating him away, and it was torture, but I don't think that occured to him. The blind lust that filled him was his only thought when he held the ring again. He would not have just given it all up. He betrayed the oath he made on the ring to get the ring back! The ring was the ONLY thing on his mind, and to think that he would then suddenly realize that it was destroying him, after he just got it back? I think that is too much of a stretch.

As disappointed as I would be at messing up Gollem's fall in the last movie, I am more concerned that the Scourging of the Shire will be left out or played down, and that the solemn ending of the book with Sam returning to the Shire and sitting in his chair with his daughter will be altered or messed with. I think Tolkien wanted the emphases of the books to be more about returning to peace, rather that this really cool super violent ending to make everyone excited. Call me an idealist, but I like the way the book is, and I don't think it should be messed with. May I recall who spent their life working on it? Oh yeah, J.R.R. Tolkien. I say leave it the way he wrote it.

Tuor of Gondolin

10-20-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Heather Wooltoes
"I still want to know how a critter with only six teeth (see Hobbit)bites off a finger to begin with."
__________________________________________________

One last comment (I promise the last by me) on Gollum's teeth, in the Two Towers DVD he has (I think) 7 or 8 or teeth, all sharpened to a point. They don't meet, but they do mesh together, so, at least in concept they are still lethal tools. And they do show PJ's creative people having a credible concept of Gollum's teeth.
Hate to think of poor Smeagel having to gum his food! I don't suppose nassty woodelvses would make him wooden false teeth.

hectorberlioz

10-20-2003, 11:09 PM

Gollum, by dying, 'saved' the day. Frodo, in the cracks of mount doom succumbed to the ring. If gollum hadnt bitten off frodo's finger with ring on it and danced around like a maniac and then fallen;frodo would not have destroyed it (sam would not be a help to destroy the ring)

Rían

10-27-2003, 12:46 AM

Thanks for those quotes from "Letters", Tuor! I'm one of those that was really disappointed in Frodo when I first read the books, but JRRT's comments in "Letters" helped me see it a new way.

Brill

10-27-2003, 01:02 AM

250-1: Arwen flies in on Gwaihir, gives them all a stern talking-to and tosses the Ring in herself.

100 bucks on that.

As many have mentioned, it was just fate. Gollum had a purpose, Gandalf said that Gollum mightve had some part to play, and he did.

It's my belief that if...for some reason the book was written differently and...gollum hadn't died before the ring was destroyed or when it was, he would have disintegrated, or aged like Bilbo did without it (Bilbo had it in his possession for alot less time than Gollum, so Gollum would have aged more and more rapidly). Gollum's life, like the lives of the Nazgul, was directly linked to the Ring. When the Ring was then destroyed, he had no purpose. It only made sense that he die, whether the schimatics worked or not.

My opinion, of course.

The Gaffer

10-29-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Brill
100 bucks on that.

As many have mentioned, it was just fate. Gollum had a purpose, Gandalf said that Gollum mightve had some part to play, and he did.

Wanna send me your PayPal details??

Ah, yes, fate. I'm sure Gollum will bring about the Ring's destruction, however it happens. And I'm pretty sure that Frodo will claim it as his own. If these all happen, and oathbreaking is the antecedent, I'll leave the cinema a happy Gaffer.

Jackson has shown that he's going to pay more than lip service to the subtle workings of the Powers in Middle-Earth. He's kept in all the stuff about "you were meant to have it" and "Gollum may have a part to play". We see also from the stills that the vision of the king's crown at the crossroads is in.
These are all ways in which fate turned out to be, maybe just at a metaphorical level, the will of the Powers at work. Or something