frodo dying? [Archive]

smaug_the_magnificent

10-12-2003, 10:30 PM

The "Quest does claim Frodo's life" in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings..

The westward passage of Frodo from Middle Earth across the sea to the Blessed Realm in S.R. 1421, is in essence the death of Frodo..

Galadriel's prophecy in the film is in fact correct.. Though how PJ will explain to audiences in an unambiguous way that Frodo taking the ship at the Grey Havens is akin to the act of passing away from the physical world, is anyone's guess..

Of course there's always the possibility that PJ won't flesh out the notion of Frodo's death in the Grey Haven's scene and moviegoers will have to conclude that sometimes, even the Elves get it wrong sometimes! :rolleyes:

cassiopeia

10-12-2003, 10:32 PM

I don't believe PJ will kill Frodo off. I don't understand why Galadriel would say the quest will claim his life -- assuming she is speaking of the truth. My only guess is that Frodo's passing over the sea is seen as a kind of 'death' in the movies.

Edit: smaug_the_magnificent beat me to it (and said it much better). :)

smaug_the_magnificent

10-12-2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
My only guess is that Frodo's passing over the sea is seen as a kind of 'death' in the movies.

That is not how it is seen in the movies... That is how it IS, FULL STOP

That is what the book implies! ..and I'm pretty sure the movie will follow suit

azalea

10-13-2003, 09:56 AM

I know that this won't be how it was for many people, but I saw that line as meaning that it takes his life (which it does), but not that it will kill him. IOW, she was saying that even if he succeeds in his quest, he will suffer for the rest of his life, will have no peace or comfort, will never fully heal from both the physical and mental wounds he has suffered. Not only does he have the Wound, but he'll have one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever. The quest claims the life he had and could have had.
Leaving the circles of the world is not a death, it's a departure, and an opportunity for healing the spirit. He does die eventually, but that's because he is a mortal.

Black Breathalizer

10-13-2003, 12:37 PM

I may not always agree with azalea's administrative decisions, but I agree with her comments here. ;)

I suspect that near the end of the movie, Gandalf will make some comment about Frodo never living a normal life again even though the ring has been destroyed as a way of bringing closure to Galadriel's prediction for the audience.

Alqualaure

10-13-2003, 01:41 PM

I've been wondering the same thing of late, and have more or less come to the same conclusion as Azalea. I feared at first that Galadriel's prediction meant that PJ would actually have Frodo die in the Cracks of Doom or something... but I really don't think that will be the case at all. The Quest does indeed "claim his life" - it takes it over completely, doesn' it?

PS to Azalea - "one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever" - ROFLAO!!!!!!!!!! Sad but true - it just cracked me up the way you put it! :D

Alqua :cool:

azalea

10-13-2003, 09:31 PM

:)
Also, I think the line might have been included for some dramatic tension, a bit of "false foreshadowing" to keep that possibility open for the non-reader, highlighting the dangerousness of Frodo's quest. I think audiences might recall that line during the Shelob episode, and might be tricked, as Sam is, into thinking he really is dead. The poor saps!:p

LuthienTinuviel

10-13-2003, 10:46 PM

That is what the book implies! ..and I'm pretty sure the movie will follow suit

when else has PJ followed THAT statement:rolleyes:

kiwi52291

10-14-2003, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by azalea
:)
Also, I think the line might have been included for some dramatic tension, a bit of "false foreshadowing" to keep that possibility open for the non-reader, highlighting the dangerousness of Frodo's quest. I think audiences might recall that line during the Shelob episode, and might be tricked, as Sam is, into thinking he really is dead. The poor saps!:p

hahahahaha!:D That's right!

Dúnedain

10-14-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by azalea
I know that this won't be how it was for many people, but I saw that line as meaning that it takes his life (which it does), but not that it will kill him. IOW, she was saying that even if he succeeds in his quest, he will suffer for the rest of his life, will have no peace or comfort, will never fully heal from both the physical and mental wounds he has suffered. Not only does he have the Wound, but he'll have one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever. The quest claims the life he had and could have had.
Leaving the circles of the world is not a death, it's a departure, and an opportunity for healing the spirit. He does die eventually, but that's because he is a mortal.

I totally agree, also remember the comment that's made in Rivendell by Gandalf I believe "That wound will never fully heal, he will have it for the rest of his life" or something to that effect. Ultimately, Frodo's life is forever changed when the Ring "came" to him. By Galadriel stating "the quest will claim his life", knowing the outcome from the books, I look at this more as a Metaphor of his life than anything, not his literal death. I do believe as it was said above this also gives a dramatic effect for those not as familiar with the book.

This not only sets up the incident with Shelob, I know when I read the book the first time I thought Frodo was dead too after he battled with Shelob, the moviegoer will now get that same effect times two because of Galadriel's statement. I would also bet anything that it will appear that Frodo dies in Mount Doom when fighting with Gollum, as if he fell in with Gollum, but somehow he is saved...

Elfhelm

10-14-2003, 01:42 PM

*tsk* ...but what grace Arwen had was passed to him, so the quest would claim his life but Arwen's grace will sustain him and she will live as a human. Maybe Elrond will even mention his brother making the same choice. Obviously, nowhere in the holy writings does Arwen pass her grace to Frodo, but it will be the Hollywood solution.

Black Breathalizer

10-14-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Elfhelm
*tsk* ...but what grace Arwen had was passed to (Frodo). Arwen's comment about "what grace I have..." at the ford was simply a figure of speech. She did not give away her immortality then. It will happen in ROTK.

Elfhelm

10-14-2003, 03:51 PM

BB, I realize you think you can predict PJ's silliness, but I really think my prediction is not beyond his capabilities as a re-writer. :)

[edit]

Elrond: You gave away your life's grace!

Dúnedain

10-14-2003, 04:32 PM

Here is something else to back the theory above. I was just watching my Two Towers DVD and watched the Preview for the Extended Edition. They showed the Dead Marshes scene and Gollum was looking at Frodo holding the ring and Gollum said this about the ring:

"Once it takes hold of us it never lets go."

It is because of the evil and greed that consumes them and pauses their life. Once that bond is broken with the ring, what is left? Not much, your will is gone, you feel broken and the emptyness is unbearable...

Dúnedain

10-14-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Elfhelm
BB, I realize you think you can predict PJ's silliness, but I really think my prediction is not beyond his capabilities as a re-writer. :)

[edit]

Elrond: You gave away your life's grace!

I think you and others have been way to hard on PJ for unfounded reasons. Think of the things he actually had to write that Tolkien didn't. For instance intricate battle sequences and tactics for the screen. Tolkien only spoke of how the battle went, he didn't create battlefield tactics and maneuvers that PJ and company had to do for the movies...

Gotta give credit where it is due, even if you are a loyalist...

Elfhelm

10-14-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I think you and others have been way to hard on PJ for unfounded reasons. Think of the things he actually had to write that Tolkien didn't. For instance intricate battle sequences and tactics for the screen. Tolkien only spoke of how the battle went, he didn't create battlefield tactics and maneuvers that PJ and company had to do for the movies...

Gotta give credit where it is due, even if you are a loyalist...

I know. You are so right. Think of all that extra love scene dialog they had to make up. I should have more empathy. ;)

But I seriously believe the "grace" bit. I will even wager BB on it. BB, if it turns out I am guessing right, will you post "PJ sux"? please?

Eärloth

10-15-2003, 04:51 AM

I think that when Galadriel says "The Quest will claim his life" she means his life's happiness, and therefore much of his life's meaning; that...kind of happens.

Black Breathalizer

10-15-2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I seriously believe the "grace" bit. I will even wager BB on it. BB, if it turns out I am guessing right, will you post "PJ sux"? please? First off, if Arwen gave her immortality away at the fords, then why in the world would Elrond be trying to convince both Aragorn and Arwen that she should go to Valinor??? Your scenario doesn't make any sense.

Second, PJ wouldn't waste an incredibly dramatic moment such as this one with an ambiguous phrase at the fords where the audience's focus is on Frodo's health. This dramatic moment of self-sacrifice was tailor-made for ROTK and that is exactly what the recent trailer hints at.

azalea

10-15-2003, 01:49 PM

IMO, "Grace" does not equal "immortality." When she says, "What grace I have, let it pass into him," I didn't take it as meaning "Please take my immortality and exchange it for allowing Frodo to live." I don't think that's even possible.:confused: (not that that has stopped PJ in other cases, I know. :P )
What it meant (if I'm correct) was that she was asking that what natural "elf power" she possesses might sustain him until she is able to reach her father. This was probably another way of conveying to the audience that elves are different, that they naturally possess healing powers (or healing knowledge) that men and hobbits do not (or at least SHE does, perhaps by virtue of being Elrond's daughter, who knows).

Black Breathalizer

10-15-2003, 01:56 PM

I completely agree with azalea.

Good lord, that's TWICE in one week!!!! :eek:

Elfhelm

10-15-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by azalea
IMO, "Grace" does not equal "immortality." When she says, "What grace I have, let it pass into him," I didn't take it as meaning "Please take my immortality and exchange it for allowing Frodo to live." I don't think that's even possible.:confused: (not that that has stopped PJ in other cases, I know. :P )
What it meant (if I'm correct) was that she was asking that what natural "elf power" she possesses might sustain him until she is able to reach her father. This was probably another way of conveying to the audience that elves are different, that they naturally possess healing powers (or healing knowledge) that men and hobbits do not (or at least SHE does, perhaps by virtue of being Elrond's daughter, who knows).

I hope you are right, but Elrond refers to her "grace" again in the trailer and I fear the worst.

BTW, I don't think PJ sux, I would just like to have a wager with BB that if I'm right he would have to post those two words. hahaha! I like PJ, actually, and time is moving too slowly till the extended DVD of TTT and the release of RotK.

b.banner

10-31-2003, 12:50 PM

if he kills frodo i will cry help me get me a tissue:( :( :( :( :( :(

Cassius

11-03-2003, 04:45 PM

The quest will claim his life, but not by killing him. Note than in ROTK, Frodo is in constant agony due to the longlasting effects of the ring. It will be destroyed for sure, but it even left a scar on Bilbo who didn't have it during such a traumatic time. He even forgot about the whole quest and asked Frodo if he still had it when they returned to Rivendell. It won't claim his life physically, but psychologically.

GenX

11-03-2003, 11:47 PM

frodo will not die phycologically. Galadrial just made a mistake in her forseeing. Like Gandalf taken back with fear when the Mouth of Sauron showed him the mithril cloak, The ring bearers can't just predict the future with perfect percision. for a time Galadrial did think that it would claim his life. but she was wrong wasn't she. That is the dumbest thing I have heard cassius. Though a good arguement Galadrial didn't mean that in the least.

Tuor of Gondolin

11-04-2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by GenX
"for a time Galadrial did think that it would claim his life. but she was wrong wasn't she. "
__________________________________________________
But, as observed in some posts above, in a way the ring did take his life. That is, he lost the life he would have enjoyed as a hobbit in the shire and had to leave Middle-earth for good to be healed just two years later.

Are you in pain, Frodo?" said Gandalf quietly as he rode by Frodo's side.
"Well, yes I am," said Frodo. "It is my shoulder. The wound aches, and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It was a year ago today."
"Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured," said Gandalf.
"I fear it may be so with mine," said Frodo. "There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?"

And remember Obi-won-Kenobe's "explanation" to LS about Luke's father having "died".

thranduil

11-04-2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by GenX
frodo will not die phycologically. Galadrial just made a mistake in her forseeing.

I think you aren't understanding the point GenX. Galadriel was not wrong, but correct. The quest does utterly claim his life, the quest caused him much pain from his wounds, even years after he could feel it. He could find no rest, he had to leave his home, his life, his friends, and sail away. I would consider that the quest did claim his life. What life does he have left?

hectorberlioz

11-04-2003, 01:43 AM

True, he went with bilbo and co. to the grey havens. A sort of heaven. They had no more purpose in middle earth to fulfill, so they left the middle earth. They died in a sense. So the quest did claim frodo's life.

cassiopeia

11-04-2003, 07:43 PM

I'm not sure if the quest did claim his life. It was my understanding that Frodo went over the sea, and that sixty-one years later Sam joins him. I don't think there's any evidence in the LOTR which mentions this, but in the HoME #9, Sauron Defeated, Sam clearly expects to meet with Frodo again. Of course this is not canon, but I always have hoped they would meet again. So Frodo would live till he was at least 101 -- and he would be healed, for that was why he went over the sea. Perhaps he had a wonderful life with the elves. Just my speculation of course. :)

Lefty Scaevola

11-04-2003, 08:15 PM

Im a different sense of 'life'. He can no longer have the life he expected in the shire, and every joy he has is mingled with pain and longing.

hectorberlioz

11-04-2003, 11:41 PM

I never imagined the grey havens to be a material place. I'm pretty sure it is a heaven type place. It is called the "Grey Havens" you know;)
When frodo left on the ship, he died.

azalea

11-05-2003, 02:51 PM

But don't forget about Valinor and the lands beyond the circles of the world! He was not truly DEAD, but like the elves had gone to live forever outside of ME -- I suppose you could see it as a "death," if you mean by death "departing from the world of mortals," but he still dwelt in his physical body, until his eventual true death -- "departure of soul from body," that was inevitable as he was a mortal.
The Grey Havens was a physical place IN ME, a port of departure for the elves going over the sea.

Bacchus

11-05-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I'm not sure if the quest did claim his life. It was my understanding that Frodo went over the sea, and that sixty-one years later Sam joins him. I don't think there's any evidence in the LOTR which mentions this, but in the HoME #9, Sauron Defeated, Sam clearly expects to meet with Frodo again. Of course this is not canon, but I always have hoped they would meet again. So Frodo would live till he was at least 101 -- and he would be healed, for that was why he went over the sea. Perhaps he had a wonderful life with the elves. Just my speculation of course. :)
The Appendices suggest that Sam indeed departed over Sea, and Frodo suggested that Sam's turn would come in "The Grey Havens"

In Letters, JRRT suggests that the lifespans of mortals would be shortened in Valinor. I'm not aware of any definitive answer of when Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam died, however.

Cassius

11-07-2003, 05:00 PM

How come no dwarves get to go to the undying lands? Its not fair, the bearded short people always get the short end of the stick. However they make the short end look cooler than the long one. :D

azalea

11-07-2003, 10:25 PM

Gimli got to go.

Sister Golden Hair

11-07-2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Cassius
How come no dwarves get to go to the undying lands? Its not fair, the bearded short people always get the short end of the stick. However they make the short end look cooler than the long one. :D Gimli and Legolas go together. They do not go with the Last Riding of the Keepers of the Rings, but after the death of Elessar.

LuthienTinuviel

11-07-2003, 11:24 PM

bacchus, do you have that letter handy? i'd like to see it.

Telcontar

11-13-2003, 03:45 PM

If PJ kills off Frodo, it would only be for movie drama. Of course, I think true book fans would probably start booing. I say that because of all the changes that were made from the book, that would be the ultimate "crime". That's not to say what's been changed in the movies were bad, I just think by killing Frodo it would be such a letdown. I think it would have the same effect of Matrix Revolutions. You all know what I'm talking about. I am just praying that doesn't happen to this movie because I have such high hopes for it.

Go see ROTK 2, 3, 4 times! Take your Momma too! We gotta beat Revolutions' 5-day record, previously held by TTT.

entss89

11-16-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Gamigar
In TTT galadriel says that the quest will claim frodos life. What do you think that means? Do you think that pj will kill off frodo?

yes yes lets just kill the main character why dont we??? sounds like a winning plan to me!:p

justaregularguy

11-22-2003, 12:23 AM

All the theories as to what Galadrial meant by "it will claim Frodo's life" are interesting.

I have a different take on it, though. I took Galadriel literally: she was predicting Frodo literally must die as a result of his quest in the sense that even if he made it to Mt. Doom, because of ring's nature and effect he'd be unable to voluntarily part with it and so end up dead.

I.e., either -1- Frodo wouldn't even reach Mt. Doom, he'd be found and killed first; -2- Frodo would reach Mt. Doom but claim the ring instead of casting it into the fire, in which case Sauron would instantly learn he had it and come and take it from him; or -3- he'd have to jump into Mt. Doom holding or wearing it because by that time he'd be in such a state that he'd be unable to bear the separation.

In fact, -2- is what happened. But Gandalf the Wise, whether consciously or intuitively, KNEW it would. That's why he stressed from the beginning that Gollum should not be killed, that he still had some important part to play, and that even the very wise may not see all ends.

So I believe Galadriel was speaking literally, she just wasn't able to foresee Gollum's intervention there at the end (yet another example of even the very wise being unable to see all ends). :)