Morgoth Alive???????

[Turgon_Turambar]

Could morgoth still be alive????????
i know his hands and feet were chopped off and a chain put on his neck and he was thrust out of the circles of the world
but that doesnt mean hes dead............
Could he somehow be brought back????????

[Attalus]

He was cast into the Void, and cannot return without Iluvatar's permission.

[Arien the Maia]

I don't think you can kill a Vala or a Maia. But he can't come back from the Void until the last battle right? Is the Void still within the Circles of the World? When men die, they leave the Circles of the world, they wouldn't go to the void with Morgoth would they?

[Turgon_Turambar]

Although very,very,(very) evil Morgoth was still a valar and cant die so just by being thrust into the void doesnt mean he is dead.
and it has been said that earendil was able to sail through the circles of the world in his ship so the place must be hospitable.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Could morgoth still be alive????????
i know his hands and feet were chopped off and a chain put on his neck and he was thrust out of the circles of the world
but that doesnt mean hes dead............
Could he somehow be brought back????????

His hands and feet were chopped off? :eek: Odd, I don't remember reading that. I remember the chain but I can't imagine the Valar would go as far as mutilation. I'll have to reread that again.

As for him being still alive, I'm pretty certain of that. As Arien the maia said, he's expected back for the final battle.
Originally posted by Arien the Maia
When men die, they leave the Circles of the world, they wouldn't go to the void with Morgoth would they?
I certainly hope not! :eek: But it would be very bad management from Eru is Men did end up with Morgoth in the Void, though. :p

[Durin1]

I think that when Morgoth was cast into the Void, he would have been in his natural "spirit" form as opposed to the physical shape he took in ME, although this spirit would have been greatly diminished. The chain Angainor would (in my opinion) have been only used to keep Morgoth captive and wouldn't have gone with him into the Void.

[Sween]

Morgoth in many ways has never left the world he poured much of himself into the world that is its knoiwn as the Morgoth element he wasted much of his inner strength (which was the greatest of all the Valar to begin with) on other he would of put forth a lot into his servents and slaves he probably lent great power to the dragons to enable their existance! Its not clear if he lent any power to Sauron whom i deem was one of the greatest of the Maia (but not the greatest perhaps). This ment that he would bound to the earth in a more than physical sence! Breland would of fallen mainly because he was so bound to that part of the world and had so much power invested in it to take him away riped the world apart this is why the Valar did not like going to war with him because it hurt the world so much.

He canot be killed as is the same with al of the Ainur of course but i think hes very mainable for the Valar :D

[Lefty Scaevola]

Some of Tolkien note expand a bit on what the vlar did to Morgoth after the war of wrath, (hands, feet, ect). To make it hard for him to return, they destroyed and dispersed his body, and thrust his cippled spirit into the void.

[Eladar]

According to Morgoth's Ring, the Valar cut of Morgoth's head. Since at this time he was an incarnate, this lessened his power greatly.

Yet Morgoth's original power was so great that he could never reach such a low level that he could not rebuild his power again. Sauron, Gothmog, Saruman and the rest of the Ainur who die as incarnates do reach such a low level that they can't return.


****One thing I'd like to point out is that no spirit can be destoyed, be it Fea or Eala****

[Blackheart]

The void is just the area outside Arda, where everything came from.

If you want a trite analogy, It's like they put Melkor into the penalty box for unsportsman like conduct (sticking! 5 minutes) but he's not out of the game.

His essence has marked Arda, and as such, he cannot be permanantly removed from "the game". Only put into the "penalty box".

At the last battle, when he is released from the pit (you DO realize that Tolkein's Cosmology folds neatly into a Christian genesis/revelations cosmology) He and probably the other fallen ainur will fight in the Ragnarok (nordic) or apocalypse (christian).

[Percy Weasley]

Although very,very,(very) evil Morgoth was still a valar

Simply to be pedantic, I must state that according to The Silmarillion, Morgoth/Melkor is technically not considered to be a Vala.

Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.

He is, however, an Ainu, and as such cannot be killed. He can be imprisoned, etc., but there will always be a bit of darkness hanging over Arda, for as long as he exists there will always be the chance that he will be able to find a way to return.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Simply to be pedantic, I must state that according to The Silmarillion, Morgoth/Melkor is technically not considered to be a Vala.He wasn't a Vala, but had as much power as one of the Valar. And that's what he meant.

He is, however, an Ainu, and as such cannot be killed. He can be imprisoned, etc., but there will always be a bit of darkness hanging over Arda, for as long as he exists there will always be the chance that he will be able to find a way to return. Ainu can be killed - like Gandalf. Gandalf was still 'alive', but outside of Arda. (And Saruman) If you say that's not to be killed - it's like saying men cannot be killed.

[Percy Weasley]

Ainu can be killed - like Gandalf. Gandalf was still 'alive', but outside of Arda. (And Saruman) If you say that's not to be killed - it's like saying men cannot be killed.

I must respectfully disagree. Ainu can not be killed. They are immortal. Gandalf's (and Saruman's) physical form could be destroyed, but not his spirit, which is the quintessential part of the Ainu. The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings.

[Eladar]

The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings.If you are to find Tolkien's view on this matter you are going to need to dig into HoME.

According to Tolkien there are two types of souls: fear and ealar.

Fear are the souls that requires a hroar (bodies) in order to be complete. There is one hroa that is 'mated' to the fea to make a complete being. Therefore in order to be complete that fea must inhabit its hroa. These kinds of beings are also described as incarnates

Ealar are the souls that exist naturally with as spirits and do not require hroar, but can take physical form.

According to Tolkien, it is possible for and eala to become an incarnate. If the eala takes a certain form long enough and enjoys the pleasures of the flesh long enough or has children, then the eala becomes incarnate. That paticular form becomes a necessary component for the soul to be complete.

Tolkien wrote that Morgoth became an incaranate and was killed.

From Morgoth's Ring:The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had ‘disseminated’ his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that ‘he’, as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly ‘houseless’, and for that time at a loss and ‘unanchored’ as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

[Eladar]

One thing I would like to add is that neither a fea nor an hroa can be destroyed. No spirit can be killed, at least by another spirit. Therefore one could argue that all beings with spirits are immortal. What makes Elves immortal is that they were ment to exist in Ea as long as Ea existed, therefore their spirits could be given remade bodies and live again. Men souls, on the other hand, passed from Ea.

If one is going to make the distinction between Men and Elves, then one can also make the distintion bewteen Ainur because some do cease to interact with Ea after their death (Men) while others can rebuild(Elves).

From Morgoth's RingIn any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout ‘matter’, what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no ‘repentance’ or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all ‘spiritual’ ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwe was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being ‘weakened, shrunken, reduced’ ; but this in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or ‘spirits’ may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.*

The dark spirit of Melkor’s ’remainder’ might be expected, therefore, eventually and after along ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even though Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally away from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices- but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.


*The following was added marginally after the page was written: If they do not sink below a cerain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it connot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I must respectfully disagree. Ainu can not be killed. They are immortal. Gandalf's (and Saruman's) physical form could be destroyed, but not his spirit, which is the quintessential part of the Ainu. The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings. Gandalf and Saruman weren't reguler Mayar that have body; they could not get out of it until they finish their mission and return to Valnior. Also, when their body is killed, they would find themselves out of arda.

[Eladar]

Also, when their body is killed, they would find themselves out of arda. This statement is false, outside of a direct intervention by Eru himself.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eladar
outside of a direct intervention by Eru himself. What do you mean?

[Eladar]

Gandalf and Saruman are still Maiar. According to the Simarillion, those Ainur who entered Ea could not leave until the end of Ea.

In order for Morgoth to be cast out into the void, it took an act of Eru since he was an Ainu too.

Where did you get the idea that Gandalf and Saruman could leave Ea?

[Radagast The Brown]

I'n not sure.

Where did Gandalf go then? "Naked I was sent back" - to Ea.

[Percy Weasley]

Not to Eä, but to Middle Earth.

In Gandalf's "death" and "rebirth" (I use those terms very loosely) he returned in spiritual form to Aman, perhaps to Mandos, although that is unclear. He faced the Valar, who chose to send him back, rather the same way that the Valar reimbodied Glorfindel and sent him back to Middle Earth (although the circumstances surrounding Elves reimbodiment is far different).

Gandalf was never outside Eä.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Not to Eä, but to Middle Earth.

In Gandalf's "death" and "rebirth" (I use those terms very loosely) he returned in spiritual form to Aman, perhaps to Mandos, although that is unclear. He faced the Valar, who chose to send him back, rather the same way that the Valar reimbodied Glorfindel and sent him back to Middle Earth (although the circumstances surrounding Elves reimbodiment is far different).

Gandalf was never outside Eä. You mean he died, returned to Valinor, and went to ME again?

Could be. Naked - without body, then. But Tolkien never really said the Istari can't exit Ea. He may have came back to Ea, from the outside. (I'm in process of believing you, so please keep convincing me :p)

[Percy Weasley]

"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and decended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." The Silmarillion

:) Hope that helps.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
:) Hope that helps. Actaully, I know this quote, and you mentioned it before.
First, Istari weren't reguler Ainur; reguler Ainur can't be killed. Melkor left Ea.

[Eladar]

No, Gandalf did not go back to Valinor. Gandalf passed out of time, this means he entered the void. It was an act of Eru that did this. The Valar's plan to use the Istari had failed, so Eru stepped in, gave Gandalf a power upgrade and created a new plan.

The information comes from Letter 156.

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the cirsis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandlf.' Of couse he remined similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speks he commnds attention; the old Gandlf could not have delat so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in imergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Farmir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eladar
No, Gandalf did not go back to Valinor. Gandalf passed out of time, this means he entered the void. It was an act of Eru that did this. The Valar's plan to use the Istari had failed, so Eru stepped in, gave Gandalf a power upgrade and created a new plan.

The information comes from Letter 153. Oh. Thank you.

[Ainaromenel]

Perhaps Gandalf went to Mandos, atleast for a while. I believe that the letters were some of speculation about how things could be. I haven't read them so I don't exactly know. It doesn't make sense that Gandalf went to the void, since nothing hints at that, and as I will say, I think only Melkor went to the void before the End. I will have to read the letters though, I admit. Certainly Saurman did not "die", as in his spirit completely vanished from existance. Even when the Elves are slain, they go to Mandos and wait till the End. Only Men have a completely unknown destination. I'm pretty sure that only Mandos, maybe Manwe, and obviously Iluvatar know where man goes when they die. No one else knows. Ainu can not die. They do not disappear from Arda, such as men do (at least that's what I think. Maybe that's the Gift/Doom of men given to them by Iluvatar). That is, except for Melkor.

It says at the end of Quenta Simarillion:

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a gaurd is set for ever in those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

That describes the fate of Melkor. In the end he WAS counted as a Valar, though maybe only by Iluvatar himself. I don't know. I interpret this to mean that Melkor left Arda, some how. I don't know how, since none are supposed to be able to leave, but maybe Iluvatar made an exception. I know that's sketchy, but I'll continue. I assume that the "Timeless Void" refers to outside Arda. In the begining, after Iluvatar stopped the music, he took the Ainur to the void. Then he said "Behold your music!", and they saw the vision of Arda, and saw all the way up until I believe the end of the Third Age (hence the telling of the Lord of the Rings). Then Iluvatar hid it from their sight, and they precieved Darkness for the first time, outside of thought. That's when I believe the vision ended, and I think that darkness was the vision of Morgoth in the void. I know Earendil helped the Valar with over throwing Angband, by slaying Ancalagon the Black, "the mightiest of the dragon-host", and the body of Ancalagon destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim, thus greatly helping the Valar over throw Morgoth. Maybe the Valar gave Earendil the task/reward of gaurding over the ramparts of the sky, whatever that is. And assuming all this is right, and Melkor is left in the Void, then I do not think that Arda has any fears of his return. In fact, I believe that either in the preface, Ainulindale, or Valaquenta, it says that after Sauron, there was no other form of evil in just one dark lord, but rather it spread through out. I maybe wrong on this though, and if someone can prove otherwise, I will recant my saying this.

One last thing is that Melkor was not always evil. He is not totally evil. There was a time, during the music in the beginning, that all the Ainur played as they were supposed to. So in the very VERY beginning, he was good. Also, the only other kind of bright spot is when the Ainur are looking at the vision of Arda, it says "But [Melkor] feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, ..." Now he quickly turned his desires away from doing good at this point, but there was a short time where he feigned (To imitate so as to deceive) even himself. So he convinced even himself that he wanted to do good. I know, a very very small thing, but I thought I'd point that out. In the end he was a horrible terrible being that caused a bunch of REALLY bad things to happen and in the end suffered in his own personal Hell. I'd say I'm glad it's all fiction, but that isn't true, seeing how we have a great dark lord as an enemy ourselves...

[Eladar]

No problem Radagast.

Ainaromenel,

What I meant by the Void is the region where Eru resides. The Halls of Mandos are within time. Gandalf clearly states that he passed out of time. Therefore he had to pass out of Ea.

Besides, where is it ever stated that an Ainu ever went to the Halls of Mandos after it as weakened by being forcibley unhoused?

[Wayfarer]

Of course Morgoth was still alive. It's not possible to kill him. Period. The only one that coudl unmake morgoth would be the one that created him.

[Ainaromenel]

Eladar,

I know of no other Ainu that was "forcibly unhoused", so if that is the case, then there would be no other reference to what happens when they are forcably unhoused.

I see where you get that Gandalf left time:

"Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wondered far on roads that I will not tell."

Then he says:

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."

From this, I would say that to return, after being "sent back", is when he retuns to Aman, with Frodo and the rest of them. It makes sense to me that he returns to Aman, to do whatever, until the End.

How he returns to the mountain top, I don't know. That's something for speculation. But it is clear to me that he was still in his spirit form, hence being naked, and hence Gwaihir saying he was like a feather, and that the sun shines through him. He didn't take shape again till perhaps he was in Gwaihir's claws, since he was afraid of falling. Maybe it happened later.

Now, saying that when he was out of time, and wondered far roads that I will not tell, it seems to me that the idea of roads in the Void doesn't make sense. If you mean he went to Iluvatar, then maybe there's roads in Iluvatar's halls. But certainly there are no roads in the void, since it's the void! It seems to me that the matter of wondering out of thought and time, it is perhaps a metaphor, or at least not literal. If the wondering out of thought and time part is to be taken literally, then the far roads must be also.

Finally, after arriving back on the mountain, he says

"There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth."

So was Gandalf laying there for ages? Or did the days just seem REALLY long? If one day could seem like a life-age, could it also seem like he was out of time?

Thanks for making me think Eladar!

[Eladar]

I know of no other Ainu that was "forcibly unhoused"

How about Gothmog? Or the Balrog that Glorfindel killed?

It makes sense to me that he returns to Aman, to do whatever, until the End.

Yes, that makes sense to me too. But then again, perhaps Olorin was not meant to spend that much time in Aman. Perhaps after he helped Frodo and Bilbo make it to the Blessed Lands, Olorin was taken back out of the world.

Thanks for pointing out this aspect. I had never noticed the implication before.

But it is clear to me that he was still in his spirit form, hence being naked, and hence Gwaihir saying he was like a feather, and that the sun shines through him.

Yes, I thought that too, but in a letter, Tolkien stated otherwise.

From Letter 156'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whome, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment. So was Gandalf laying there for ages? Or did the days just seem REALLY long? If one day could seem like a life-age, could it also seem like he was out of time?

I don't know how he could be outside of time and within Ea at the same time. I guess anything is possible with Eru, but I think it probably just seemed like ages.

Thanks for making me think Eladar!

No problem! I like this kind of stuff.


Wayfarer,

The same could be said of the very least of the spirits created by Eru.

[Turgon_Turambar]

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a gaurd is set for ever in those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

But if Morgoth was indeed utterly destroyed and never been able to return why was there a guard set forever?????

I want somebody to draw a conclusion on this matter as there have been some very interesting points. In the Silmarillion it says they hewed his feet from under him and beat his iron crown into a collar and put him in that special chain (ang-something) and then thrust him into the void. But someone else said he was 'excecuted'? i dont think that is possible. I do believe though that because Morgoth poured so much of himself in Beleriand when it was destroyed and 'rent asunder' so was much of his spirit and it would take him untill the last battle to regenerate his power?????

[Blackheart]

He's alive. I saw him last week at the meeting. Sitting right next to Chthulu.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
But someone else said he was 'excecuted'? i dont think that is possible. I do believe though that because Morgoth poured so much of himself in Beleriand when it was destroyed and 'rent asunder' so was much of his spirit and it would take him untill the last battle to regenerate his power????? In HoME 10, Myths Transformed, Tolkien uses the word 'executed'. I think 'executed' means that they killed his physical body, which would be an effective execution since Morgoth had bounded most of his life force into it. He had also as you said poured out much of himself into the physical world, but in the process he had lost control over that part of his power: Not all of that power was destroyed with Beleriand, it was still there in the Orcs and in the physical matters of Arda, but it could not be regained, at least not until the breaking of the world.

[Lord Manafirogh]

read this, this should settle things.
"But Manwe out forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the World in the void that is without; and he cannot himself return again into the World, present and visible, while the lords of the west are still enthroned"
Page 310 Akallabeth- silmarillion.

[Wayfarer]

Morgoth was incarnate, which means that his powers were bound up in a physical body which could be destroyed, but that would simply rearrange, and not dissipate, his energies. None of the Ainur can be slain- they can only be forced to leave their current form and possibly not be able to create a new body.

This is, of course, true of all spirits, as Eladar has said. I'd like to point out, though, the difference between an Ainu and a Japa... er, one of the Ainur and one of the Eruhini. The children of Eru are /given/ bodies, they do not make them, and so for them death is not a lessening of the self but a transition- for the elves it is a period between one body and the next, while the wounds of the spirit are healed. Elves that have died and been reborn are in fact stronger than those that have only lived once.

For Men, on the other hand, death is a step out of the body, and out of the world. They go... Away. Out. Somewhere. Nobody knows where, except those that have gone on ahead.

As for the dwarves, or the other 'made' races of the world, their spirits are disposed of in various other ways. But it seems, at least for the dwarves, that the dictum holds likewise- their spirits are not lessened by death.

A Maia or Vala, on the other hand, must make a body for them selves out of whole cloth, so to speak. The must expend energy to create the flesh they plan to inhabit, or at least arrange the elements that will make it up in the form that they desire. And depending on the effort spent to make the form there is a degree of difficulty in casting it off. Many of the Ainur assumed shapes and guises to intereact with the children of Eru, but what Melkor did goes far farther. He bent his will and focused his power into a body that would allow him to walk in the world of men, not as a dischoate spirit but a corporeal entity. In doing so, he crossed the point of no return- the power he used in making that body was beyond retrieval, and so the death of that body was a loss to him.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Morgoth is alive in the form that his evil work still lives in middle-earth. His spirit still lives. he is bound to some parts of the world orcs ect. Hes spirit cannot be killed. but his body form is destroyed and he cannot make a new body for himself. therefor he cannot come back with out the aid of some1 like eru himself. Eru could grant him a new body but why would he do that?

[Radagast The Brown]

In Ut, in the chapter of the Istari, the second prophecy of Mandos is mentioned. I can't quote it, since I ave it in hebrew, but I'll try to translate: Manwe won't go down off the mountain (Taniqueti, I believe) before Dagor Dagorath, and the end, when Melkor will return.

[Turgon_Turambar]

has anyone got any information on the last battle? is there a website on it? i wanna known what happenz.

[Wayfarer]

I'll let you know when we get there, 'allright? ];-)

[Artanis]

I have quoted the Second Prophecy of Mandos a few times before, I can do it again - from HoME 4, the Quenta Noldorinwa:Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.'

[Turgon_Turambar]

I dont see aragorns name in the prophecy..........shows how goosd he is dont it:D

[Wayfarer]

Not really, no.

[Falagar]

I believe it's said somewhere in Morgoth's Ring that the Last Battle had been abandoned.

[Artanis]

Ahhh Falagar, don't say things like that - now I won't have peace before I've searched through MR ... :rolleyes:
;)

[Falagar]

Mwahahaha! ;)

I believe it's somewhere at the end of the Athrabeth, in one of Christopher's notes perhaps.

[Lord Manafirogh]

dont see aragorns name in the prophecy..........shows how goosd he is dont it
LoL. they must have not read silmarillion (the person who said aragorn could destroy Turin in single combat) or they just love aragorn too much. LOL i dont see no dwarfs either!

[Wayfarer]

You must have overlooked them.

:rolleyes:

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Mwahahaha! ;)

I believe it's somewhere at the end of the Athrabeth, in one of Christopher's notes perhaps. Meh-heh. Found it. And not where you thought it was. :D

[Turgon_Turambar]

leave dwarves there cooooool!!!!!!

[Lord Manafirogh]

I dont like dwarves. They are nang but i just think they dont do enough but build weapons. Men are my favourite closesly fallowed by elves but mainly i like elves because of the Noldor. Elves are scared to die and they know their fate which makes me angry so diying should be a problem for them since they have another life. so i recon they should do more. I know this is out of the thread but i just wanted to say that.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I ment elves shouldn't have a problem dying since they know their fate. and nang means great for those who dont know. anyway yeah thats wot i think about the three races.

[Turgon_Turambar]

I wish Morgoth came back during the 3rd age whilst Sauron was attcking Gondor.