LOTR=Bible?

[Novdur]

Does anybody ever think about how closely certain parts of the
Bible resemble certain parts of LOTR?:confused:

[Elvengirl]

NO

[Rosie Gamgee]

I do sometimes, but I think that's just Tolkien's principles showing through. I don't think the Bible and LOTR are supposed to have any connection. Tolkien said that himself numerous times.

[Jedi X]

I seem to recall reading that towards the latter part of his career, JRR said that it was a "deeply Catholic structure" or something to that effect. I'll see if I can dig that up.

[Gamigar]

I know he felt strongly against it, but it IS hard not to notice the similarities. For example;

Sauron-Satan
Nazgul-Demons

And Tolkien himself said that Iluvitar was basically God, as in the God of the Bible.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Well, every good story must have it's good and bad guys. I think one can pick out the 'Satan' and 'Demon' charaters in every epic, as well as the 'God'. I think that if one is of a one-god religion, and they write a mythology and a creation story for a fantasy realm, then I suppose their priciples would dictate a one-god mythology.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It is a well known fact that Tolkien disliked allegory, and denied it being in his works. However, the entire Middle-earth concept is a mythology, and gods, angelic beings, and good and evil all play their parts in it. Although Tolkien disliked allegory, he was a deeply religious man, and it is true that perhaps some of it unintentionally slipped into his writing. I think it may show much more so, in the Silmarillion, rather than in LotRs.

[Sheeana]

This has been done before. Just last year in fact.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5100&perpage=20&highlight=Bible&pagenumber=2

[Brimstone]

Gandalf died and rose again- and returned in order to save the world. Hmmm...

[Elfhelm]

Beowulf? The Eddas?

I mean, is there a tree like that in the Bible? No, it's a different tree.

I don't know about Ungoliant. I don't know if any other culture disparages spiders in that way.

I don't see any Tom Bombadil in the Bible.

I think if the Book of Enoch had been a part of the bible there might be some parallels, but somebody took it out and it hasn't been put back in.

As to the Sauron / Lucifer parallel and such, I think that discussion should be in the Silmarillion forum.

[Sister Golden Hair]

As to the Sauron / Lucifer parallel and such, I think that discussion should be in the Silmarillion forum. Yeah, I agree Elfhem. Morgoth was much more like to Lucifer than Sauron.

[nazgul prince]

It say's in the bible that Giants and Great heroes(Who were deseendant from the first humans and heavenly beings) once existed.Then noahs flood came along and destoyed everything.Kinda funny that are acually history as we no it starts at that point.Anyway shouldn't Morgoth=The Devil not sauron???

[IronParrot]

LOTR doesn't "=" anything directly, but it certainly presents some interesting parallels to analyse, considering that Tolkien still had a personal model of the natures of good and evil, and his Catholic background probably had at least some influence on that.

Once again, it's the time-worn difference between allegory and applicability.

I think Tolkien doesn't explore the grand worldview so much in LOTR as he does in The Silmarillion, so that's where Biblical influences or similarities may be significantly more pronounced.

[hectorberlioz]

Jedi X is right. Tolkien said LotR was a "deeply catholic structure"

[Insidious Rex]

Like the bible was the ultimate source for things like good and bad characters. heroes and villans. supreme evil and demons. good and destiny and self sacrfice and reincarnation. All these themes can be found in sources and in uncounted unwritten tales and revelations that all predate the bible. they simply reflect the archatecture of our human interface with the world and the power of our imagination. theres no doubt tolkien was influenced by his faith but he wasnt writing a fantasy version of the bible. and the bible itself wasnt the first to have all these themes anyway.

[hectorberlioz]

oh my god! of course not! the only thing i've said IS that he was influenced by his faith.

[Bombadillo]

I know that he avoided religious references, but yaeh. I think that no matter how hard you try to avoid religion, it'll always show up while writing legends. If you get me.
He wrote ancient mythical histories, and although they weren't based on Christianity, some ideal showed up inevitably.

Either way, the Chronicles of Narnia a verily based on the Bible. That's irrelevant.

[Attalus]

The events in the Sil-LotR are supposed to predate the Bible, though one is free to imagine the Biblical patriarchs running around over in Far Harad or Rhun. Tolkien was trying to re-create a mythology for England in the BoLT, and, like Topsy, it just grew.

[Jedi X]

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." ~JRR

That was it. Apparently he wrote this to a friend of his who was in the priesthood.

His essay, "On Fairy stories", sheds light on his ideas on the use of myth, of which (of course), LOTR was intended to convey.

[Aewionen]

I often think about the similarities between the Bible and LotR, but that might be because I am a Christian. The Nazgul do remind me of demons, where they were once men but where corrupted by the rings. Demons, which were (Someone please correct me if I am wrong) once angels, were corrupted by Satan.

[Kirinki54]

Let me turn this question around. If the LotR resembles the Bible to some degree (in certain plot elements, characters, contents, tone, and so on) are then all the readers religious seekers? And us at the forums, are we zealots and fundamentalists?:D

[IronParrot]

And us at the forums, are we zealots and fundamentalists?
Judging by the film forum, some of us may well be. :)

But the thing about LOTR is that there really isn't a scope for debate about any sort of religious or doctrinal "truth" - and I'd say that this should be the case. It's pretty clear-cut that Tolkien told us a very specific story, yet left plenty of room open for analysis.

I tend to think that in LOTR, rather than believing in a doctrine or a set of rules defined by gospel, the characters approach the world in a more direct way: their beliefs directly concern their relationships with good and evil.

As was far better explained in My Pet Tolkien Analysis (aka Shippey's Author of the Century), Rohan is particularly interesting as it is the culture in Middle-Earth with the most religious overtones - take, for example, the ceremony with which they bury their dead, staking pikes around those who fell on the battlefield, et cetera.

[Gamigar]

christianity is NOT a set of rules, all you need to do is to accept you are a sinner and let Jesus into your life.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by IronParrot
Judging by the film forum, some of us may well be. :)

But the thing about LOTR is that there really isn't a scope for debate about any sort of religious or doctrinal "truth" - and I'd say that this should be the case. It's pretty clear-cut that Tolkien told us a very specific story, yet left plenty of room open for analysis.

I tend to think that in LOTR, rather than believing in a doctrine or a set of rules defined by gospel, the characters approach the world in a more direct way: their beliefs directly concern their relationships with good and evil.

As was far better explained in My Pet Tolkien Analysis (aka Shippey's Author of the Century), Rohan is particularly interesting as it is the culture in Middle-Earth with the most religious overtones - take, for example, the ceremony with which they bury their dead, staking pikes around those who fell on the battlefield, et cetera.

So the Rohirrim would be the most devoutly religious (eg christian) people depicted in the LotR?

[IronParrot]

So the Rohirrim would be the most devoutly religious (eg christian) people depicted in the LotR?
Yes, but not necessarily Christian.

From what I remember reading, their similarities in both culture and language most closely parallel those of the Old (as in pre-Norman) English. I'd dig up my source but I don't have it handy right now.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by IronParrot
Yes, but not necessarily Christian.

From what I remember reading, their similarities in both culture and language most closely parallel those of the Old (as in pre-Norman) English. I'd dig up my source but I don't have it handy right now.

That is very interesting! I have never perceived the Rohirrim that way. Rituals, yes. But IIRC never any explicit mention of God/s. The Men I most closely connect to religion and worship is the Dunedain/Numenoreans, but that is mostly from the description of Numenor in Unfinished Tales. In LotR there is but one reference to the Valar by one of Faramir´s men (forgot the name).
As for the rest, I agree with you that most of the characters and peoples of LotR seem to relate to God/higher powers on a very personalized and direct level. No priests, no temples. Did Tolkien not like organized religion?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Gamigar
christianity is NOT a set of rules, all you need to do is to accept you are a sinner and let Jesus into your life.

By this definition, LotR is hardly a Christian work.

[IronParrot]

I think you'll find that if you pick any character from LOTR, good or evil, they never make decisions based on concerns regarding their futures in eternity. Rather, they think of the consequences for Middle-Earth, be it for their families, their kingdoms, or their natural environment as a whole. In that sense, one could argue that LOTR is strictly non-religious.

It's interesting to contrast this with the work of Tolkien's fellow Inkling, C.S. Lewis, who infused a lot of theological context into his Narnia series. In a sense, LOTR was almost a reaction to Lewis in terms of how Tolkien approached the creation of a fantasy world not to demonstrate any allegorical point, but instead use it purely as a means of telling a story.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Did Tolkien not like organized religion? JRRT was a devout Roman Catholic who attended Mass regularly, if Humphrey Carpenter's biography is to be believed. He made the conscious decison to not include any organized religion into the book because it is, indeed, preChristian. The Finrod-Atrabeth debate is the most religious of all his work, and it distinctly hints at a Redeemer to come.;)

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Brimstone
Gandalf died and rose again- and returned in order to save the world. Hmmm... Yes, but Gandalf was not a Mesiah and would never have claimed to be the Son of God! As has been said above, in any good fantasy tale somebody rescues the world!

Tolkien wrote a fantastic mythology, a brilliant piece of English literature, an epic story and a timeless work of art - he didn't write a religious text, or try to hide a religious text within his masterpiece! :rolleyes:

[Anadriewen]

I can see alot of things that Tolkien put in there that can be related to the Bible, but that doesn't mean that it's a book based on christiananity. Even though Tolkien was a christian, that doesn't mean that he wrote them for that purpose. I think he purposely added some things that are christian or biblical but that doesn't change anything.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I do sometimes, but I think that's just Tolkien's principles showing through. I don't think the Bible and LOTR are supposed to have any connection. Tolkien said that himself numerous times.

Correction: He said no allegory, not no connection. :)

I know he felt strongly against it, but it IS hard not to notice the similarities. For example;

Sauron-Satan
Nazgul-Demons

And Tolkien himself said that Iluvitar was basically God, as in the God of the Bible.

Sauron, actually, does not equal Satan. Neither do the Nazgul equal demons, but rather the corrupted Ainur. Morgoth equals Satan. Please note: equals, not represents. And Tolkien said that Iluvatar WAS God, not basically. :) The Nazgul I think really were not related in any way to anything of Christianity; just something he added. ;)

It is a well known fact that Tolkien disliked allegory, and denied it being in his works. However, the entire Middle-earth concept is a mythology, and gods, angelic beings, and good and evil all play their parts in it. Although Tolkien disliked allegory, he was a deeply religious man, and it is true that perhaps some of it unintentionally slipped into his writing. I think it may show much more so, in the Silmarillion, rather than in LotRs.

Maybe not quite so unintentionally; as Jedi X said, he said it was a Catholic work, unconsciously at first, but consciously in the revision.

Gandalf died and rose again- and returned in order to save the world. Hmmm...

Gandalf, was however, a created being. He cannot really correlated to the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church. It is my understanding, however, that he was considerably more similar to the Jehovah Witness Christ.

I think if the Book of Enoch had been a part of the bible there might be some parallels, but somebody took it out and it hasn't been put back in.

Fascinating book, though.

Like the bible was the ultimate source for things like good and bad characters. heroes and villans. supreme evil and demons. good and destiny and self sacrfice and reincarnation. All these themes can be found in sources and in uncounted unwritten tales and revelations that all predate the bible.

But I highly doubt that any of those had as much influence on him as his faith.

The events in the Sil-LotR are supposed to predate the Bible, though one is free to imagine the Biblical patriarchs running around over in Far Harad or Rhun.

Well, not entirely...not Genesis. :p But all the way through the Third Age, it of course predated Peleg.

And us at the forums, are we zealots and fundamentalists?

If we believe it's literally true, we're either fundamentalists or Catholics. ;) I think most would fall into the more liberal area when it comes to LOTR, though. :p

I sure hope so, at least...:eek:

So the Rohirrim would be the most devoutly religious (eg christian) people depicted in the LotR?

The most religious: probably. The most Christian: definitely not. Tolkien stated that this took place in a pre-Christian age.

The Men I most closely connect to religion and worship is the Dunedain/Numenoreans

The same goes for me; but I think IP meant in LOTR. The Rohirrim aren't mentioned as having any temples, though, whereas the Numenoreans had a whopping TWO. :p

In a sense, LOTR was almost a reaction to Lewis in terms of how Tolkien approached the creation of a fantasy world not to demonstrate any allegorical point, but instead use it purely as a means of telling a story.

I don't think I'd say it was a "Reaction". He had different views, that's for sure; but still, he attempted to remain theologically true, and aside from that, things slipped in unawares. I, naturally, believe it to be the work of God. ;) *waits for cries of "superstitious freak"* :p

[Percy Weasley]

As a non-Christian, I think one of the true beauties of Tolkien's work is that the themes it presents are accessible to all religions and spiritual types.

In creating a pre-Christian society within Lord of the Rings, Tolkien presents universal "rights" and "wrongs" that are not caged down by the dogma of any religion. While it is undeniable that Tolkien's personal views are at times visible in his writing, I do not feel that Lord of the Rings can be called a Christian work. It is a spiritual work, there is no doubt of that, but I think that the popularity of the novel is due in good part to the universiality of its themes of spirituality, and the fact that it does not obviously embrace any one religion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I must respectfully disagree. While it is, obviously, not an explicitly Christian book, I think it is an intrinsically Christian book. There are many themes in the book which are at the least almost unique to Christianity. If any are interested, I would suggest reading Tolkien: A Celebration; it is a collection of essays on the Lord of the Rings, compiled by Joseph Pearce; this was an excellent book which gave a good deal of insight into the spirituality of LOTR, which is often Christian, or even specifically Catholic.

[Percy Weasley]

There are many themes in the book which are at the least almost unique to Christianity

I would be honestly curious to know what you think these are.

To me, the major themes in Lord of the Rings are as follows:

[list=1]
Struggle in the face of adversity
Dedication to a higher cause than yourself
Industrialism
Loyalty and honor
the importance of unity and cooperation
the importance of the individual
[/list=1]

Christianity does not hold the patent to any of these themes; they are universal to all men and women.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I would be honestly curious to know what you think these are.

To me, the major themes in Lord of the Rings are as follows:

[list=1]
Struggle in the face of adversity
Dedication to a higher cause than yourself
Industrialism
Loyalty and honor
the importance of unity and cooperation
the importance of the individual
[/list=1]

Christianity does not hold the patent to any of these themes; they are universal to all men and women. Yes, but we also have:

Good vs evil
Angelic beings
A god
A creation
Devine intervention

Although these themes are more known to the Silmarillion, it is a history that leads to the LotRs and has an unspoken carry over. IMO.

[Percy Weasley]

Good vs evil
Angelic beings
A god
A creation
Devine intervention

Indeed, these things all are themes, or occur, but I do not see any of them as being specifically "Christian."

My religion considers aspects of good and evil, we have angelic beings, a god, a creation, and divine intervention, and yet we are not Christian.

I am certainly not trying to say that Lord of the Rings is not a spiritual work - that would be foolish. I am simply saying that I do not feel it to be specifically "Christian."

Peace,
~Percy

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Indeed, these things all are themes, or occur, but I do not see any of them as being specifically "Christian."

My religion considers aspects of good and evil, we have angelic beings, a god, a creation, and divine intervention, and yet we are not Christian.

I am certainly not trying to say that Lord of the Rings is not a spiritual work - that would be foolish. I am simply saying that I do not feel it to be specifically "Christian."

Peace,
~Percy I will agree with this to a point. However, as I said several posts ago, although Tolkien denies any allegory, considering the Christian man that he was, I think that any religious theme that may have slipped into his works came from his own Christian beliefs. Therefore, if there are any existing religiously spiritual themes in Tolkien's works, they can only come from him and his own spiritual, religious beliefs, which are Christian..

[Percy Weasley]

Indeed; of course.

I fear I have made my point very poorly.

In setting his work prior to the birth of Christ, Tolkien has created a world that is free from Christian stereotypes, a world in which the free spirituality that is a part of modern Christianity flourishes in a pure and elemental state. Although there are differences in faiths and religions, I believe that this spirituality is within all religion, and as in Tolkien's world there is nothing to tie it down, this "pure morality" (if I may) is free to apply to any who are spiritual, rather than simply Christians.

Dear me, I hope that made sense. 8:30 am grammar classes are not good for my mental clarity...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Indeed; of course.

I fear I have made my point very poorly.

In setting his work prior to the birth of Christ, Tolkien has created a world that is free from Christian stereotypes, a world in which the free spirituality that is a part of modern Christianity flourishes in a pure and elemental state. Although there are differences in faiths and religions, I believe that this spirituality is within all religion, and as in Tolkien's world there is nothing to tie it down, this "pure morality" (if I may) is free to apply to any who are spiritual, rather than simply Christians.

Dear me, I hope that made sense. 8:30 am grammar classes are not good for my mental clarity... :) That made perfect sense. If I understand you correctly that is.:) Every individual's spiritual portrayal in the story comes from a state within and is not aquired from an outside influence of any specific type of religion or instruction. Does that make sense?:)

[Percy Weasley]

More or less, yes. I am glad I came across better than I thought I did.

Therefore, it is universal to all readers, whether we agree with the specifics of the beliefs or not...

[IronParrot]

Precisely.

Of course there are Catholic influences behind Tolkien's work. That follows simply because Tolkien - or any other author for that matter - creates his world within a distinct moral framework of what constitutes good and evil. Naturally, his Catholicism would play a role.

However, this does not preclude his model of how good and evil play tug-of-war with his custom-made Midgaard from being applicable and accessible to everybody. You don't need to be Christian to understand what he's saying. You may need to be Christian to understand where he got some of his ideas from, just as you may also need to be well-versed in linguistics, the Norse mythos, English country life, et al.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I beg your pardon for taking so long; I have v. restricted access to the Internet.


I would be honestly curious to know what you think these are.

To me, the major themes in Lord of the Rings are as follows:


Struggle in the face of adversity

Dedication to a higher cause than yourself

Industrialism

Loyalty and honor

the importance of unity and cooperation

the importance of the individual



Christianity does not hold the patent to any of these themes; they are universal to all men and women.

Just a few off the top of my head:

1. Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn. These three characters strikingly resemble the three roles of Christ: Prophet, Priest, and King. While of course they are not in any way the same, nor in any sense allegorical, I think that they can be seen almost as "types and shadows", as they are from an earlier time. Gandalf is the Prophet possessed of divine power, preaching a divine message. Aragorn is the King who is prophecied, and is to come. Frodo is the Priest, the one on whose shoulders are laid the evil of the world, and who is appointed to destroy it, in an almost liturgical action, one could say "on the altar of Orodruin.".

2. Lembas and miruvor are, I think, similar to the Host and Sacramental Wine of the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist. They are not "food concentrates"; however, they are bread and drink which strengthen the spirit of someone, and gives them the will to move on; IIRC, it's strength increased the more it was relied on. This is v. similar to the Catholic spirituality of the Eucharist, the power of which was expressed by Tolkien himself; also, those saints who are said to have lived solely off of the Blessed Sacrament can be easily seen in the latter.

3. Of course, there is also the promise in the Andreth (beloved by SGH) of the time when Iluvatar will enter Middle-earth, for some wondrous purpose; also, the Israeli people are hinted at.

4. Also, there is a purgatorial element in the Halls of Mandos.

Please note: I say that these are ALMOST exclusive to Christianity. Many, many religions have a god (or gods), a creation myth, struggle against good and evil, and many of the more generic spiritual/religious themes. However, these three are much more specific, and while no doubt other faiths share at least some of them to some extent, they are at any rate more exclusive than the other themes.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1. Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn. These three characters strikingly resemble the three roles of Christ: Prophet, Priest, and King. While of course they are not in any way the same, nor in any sense allegorical, I think that they can be seen almost as "types and shadows", as they are from an earlier time. Gandalf is the Prophet possessed of divine power, preaching a divine message. Aragorn is the King who is prophecied, and is to come. Frodo is the Priest, the one on whose shoulders are laid the evil of the world, and who is appointed to destroy it, in an almost liturgical action, one could say "on the altar of Orodruin.".


Good observations here. But keep in mind the triplicate aspect of religion has been with us MUCH longer then christianity has. Christianity in fact took it and ran with it for that very reason. the ancient celts used the triple forms of gods and goddesses in all of their worship. By far the most common of these is the Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother, Crone. While not directly parallel to your three roles of christ you give above, you can be sure the triplicate aspect is no coincidence. it was another brilliant way christianity co-opted pagan religions and brought over pagan worshipers to their way of worship by making the leap a little easier because it was more familiar (father son and the holy ghost?).

[Elfhelm]

It's just my opinion, so please don't shoot me, but I think it is worse to twist The Lord of the Rings into a religious allegory than it is to make an adventure movie out of it.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
It's just my opinion, so please don't shoot me, but I think it is worse to twist The Lord of the Rings into a religious allegory than it is to make an adventure movie out of it.

Yes it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as well.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I beg your pardon for taking so long; I have v. restricted access to the Internet.



Just a few off the top of my head:

1. Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn. These three characters strikingly resemble the three roles of Christ: Prophet, Priest, and King. While of course they are not in any way the same, nor in any sense allegorical, I think that they can be seen almost as "types and shadows", as they are from an earlier time. Gandalf is the Prophet possessed of divine power, preaching a divine message. Aragorn is the King who is prophecied, and is to come. Frodo is the Priest, the one on whose shoulders are laid the evil of the world, and who is appointed to destroy it, in an almost liturgical action, one could say "on the altar of Orodruin.".



Also, Aragorn the King as Healer, and Frodo the Suffering Servant bearing the burden for the sake of all the World.

Also, all three "died" and were re-born: Gandalf, of course, sent back "for a brief time"; Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead; Frodo from the sting of Shelob.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Elfhelm

"It's just my opinion, so please don't shoot me, but I think it is worse to twist The Lord of the Rings into a religious allegory then it is to make an adventure movie out of it."
__________________________________________________ _
Absolutely. Tolkien deliberately chose to place Middle-earth mythology in pre-Christian mindset and can be enjoyed, analyzed, etc. by people of any religion or none. I think that was part of his intent. But any writer draws inspiration from his background and history and in a rather famous letter he wrote to Milton Waldman in 1950 Tolkien noted:
"In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of [Melkor and those who followed him] we should say."
(and others also had falls)
""So, proceeding, the Elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. (The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears- Men do not come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumor they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented.) The main body of the tale, the Silmarillion proper, is about the fall of the most gifted kindred of the Elves, their exile from Valinor (a kind of Paradise, the home of the Gods) in the furthest West"
[From "The Letters Of J. R. R. Tolkien"]
Of course, it should be born in mind that JRRT wrote this letter (to an English Catholic publisher, with the express hope of getting The Silmarillion published, and so stressed his (Tolkien's) particular "interpretation" of story events in a way he hoped would impress Milton Waldman, and that obviously need not be those of readers. And as Percy Weasley [another Weasley!!!] correctly observes:
____________________________________________
"My religion considers aspects of good and evil, we have angelic beings, a god, a creation, and divine intervention, and yet we are not Christian.

I am certainly not trying to say that Lord of the Rings is not a spiritual work - that would be foolish. I am simply saying that I do not feel it to be specifically 'Christian.' "
__________________________________________________ __
I believe the above quote would have actually pleased JRRT enormously since it gives a great example of the "applicability" of his work, that people can enjoy, interpret it in various ways, and that's obviously one of its strenghs.

Another point about a "fall" of sentient races in JRRT's works, what about hobbits, ents, and dwarves? Hobbits are, I believe, a part of the human race, but what of the others? Did they have a fall?

And, oh yes, as for themes of LOTR, in another "Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien" (#211)
"I might say that if the tale is 'about' anything (other than itself), it is not as widely supposed about 'power'. Power-seeking is only the motive-power that sets events going, and is relatively unimportant, I think. It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory."

P. S. I'm impressed with the 'learned" and civil discussion by all in this thread, no name calling, etc.

[Bombadillo]

Hey, I just heard about an obscure Catholic tradition.

After each pope dies, the "Camerlengo" is obligated to make sure he's dead.
After that, he removes the pope's "fisherman's Ring," and destroys it. He must do this to ensure that no one else can obtain that ring and claim that they are the pope.

In other words, here is a religious leader, with a mighty ring, symbolic of all his power as lord over a worldwide belief. Once he is gone, they must take the ring out of the picture to make sure no one else can take it and missuse it.

Hmm...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
Hey, I just heard about an obscure Catholic tradition.

After each pope dies, the "Camerlengo" is obligated to make sure he's dead.
After that, he removes the pope's "fisherman's Ring," and destroys it. He must do this to ensure that no one else can obtain that ring and claim that they are the pope.

In other words, here is a religious leader, with a mighty ring, symbolic of all his power as lord over a worldwide belief. Once he is gone, they must take the ring out of the picture to make sure no one else can take it and missuse it.

Hmm...

do they throw it into a volcano to destroy it?

[Bombadillo]

No, he smacks it repeatedly with a silver hammer.

But that wouldn't have worked in the books. :p