Book Questions

[Laurelindórenan]

I've only read LOTR twice, and I've just recently finished the Sil for the first time, so I have a few questions I thought some of you long time fans might know. Sorry if they seem silly.

1) In Fellowship of the Ring, Fog on the Barrow-Downs, after Tom gets rid of the wraiths, it says:He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:
'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!' Do we know who he's taking about?

2) How long do dwarves live? They aren't immortal are they?

3) Was Sauron a maia?

I'm sure I have a lot more, but those are the ones I've been thinking of lately. Thanks for any help you can give. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Laurelindórenan
I've only read LOTR twice, and I've just recently finished the Sil for the first time, so I have a few questions I thought some of you long time fans might know. Sorry if they seem silly.

1) In Fellowship of the Ring, Fog on the Barrow-Downs, after Tom gets rid of the wraiths, it says: Do we know who he's taking about?

2) How long do dwarves live? They aren't immortal are they?

3) Was Sauron a maia?

I'm sure I have a lot more, but those are the ones I've been thinking of lately. Thanks for any help you can give. :) Well, I don't know who wore the brooch that Tom is talking about. Luthien or Idril comes to mind.

No, Dwarves are not immortal. Here is what Robert Foster says about it.

From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth:

The final fate of the Dwarves is uncertian. The Elves said that they have no life beyond Arda and the death of their bodies, but the Dwarves themselves claimed that Aule would bring them to the halls of Mandos, whence they will join the Children of Iluvatar at the End.

Dwarves lived about 250 years.

Yes. Sauron is a Maia.

[Laurelindórenan]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes. Sauron is a Maia. Was he always called Sauron then?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sauron was called: Gorthaur the Cruel, Sauron the Deceiver, the Lord of the Earth, the Enemy, the Master, the Dark Power, the Dark Lord, the Lord of Mordor, the Power of the Black Land, the Black Master, the Black one, the Lord of Barad-dur, the Lord of the Dark Tower, and the Shadow. He was also called: the Great eye, the Red eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, and the Evil eye. Also called: the Unnamed, the Nameless, the Nameless One, the Nameless eye, and He, or Him. Also: the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Ring, and the Ring Maker. He was called the Black Hand by Gollum, and he was known as Annatar when he aided Celebrimbor in the making of the Rings of Power.

In the old mythology he was called Thu.

Phew!

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Laurelindórenan

1) Do we know who he's taking about?

Hello

Weren't the barrows where the lords of the north-kingdoms (Rhudaur or Arthedain or Cardolan, can't remember which) were buried? I'd always assumed that the treasure in the barrow must've come from them.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sauron was called: Gorthaur the Cruel, Sauron the Deceiver, the Lord of the Earth, the Enemy, the Master, the Dark Power, the Dark Lord, the Lord of Mordor, the Power of the Black Land, the Black Master, the Black one, the Lord of Barad-dur, the Lord of the Dark Tower, and the Shadow. He was also called: the Great eye, the Red eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, and the Evil eye. Also called: the Unnamed, the Nameless, the Nameless One, the Nameless eye, and He, or Him. Also: the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Ring, and the Ring Maker. He was called the Black Hand by Gollum, and he was known as Annatar when he aided Celebrimbor in the making of the Rings of Power.

In the old mythology he was called Thu.

Phew!

LOL! And then some people complain about Aragorn having many names! :D

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Weren't the barrows where the lords of the north-kingdoms (Rhudaur or Arthedain or Cardolan, can't remember which) were buried? I'd always assumed that the treasure in the barrow must've come from them.
I thought likewise.

I always assumed that Tom Bombadil personally didn't know just who the woman was who had worn the butterfly brooch. But that he was thinking of the people, the Dúnedain, from whom she was part of. He surely would have remembered them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I always assumed that Tom Bombadil personally didn't know just who the woman was who had worn the butterfly brooch. But that he was thinking of the people, the Dúnedain, from whom she was part of. He surely would have remembered them.The reason that I thought of Idril most of all, was because some of the weaponry that was found in the Barrow Downs were from the kingdom of Gondolin, IIRC.

[Alqualaure]

I always assumed that Tom Bombadil personally didn't know just who the woman was who had worn the butterfly brooch. But that he was thinking of the people, the D?nedain, from whom she was part of. He surely would have remembered them.

That very well could be... Hmmm... I myself thought that from the line, "He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory..." that he had indeed known the lady who had worn the brooch. Also the line, "Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!", reinforces my notion (at least in my own little head - LOL)

If Tom was First, and had always lived there beside the downs, then he would have seen the rise and fall of kingdoms, and perhaps have known some of these people personally, don't you think? (I believe Tom describes the rise & fall of Arnor to the Hobbits during their visit, doesn't he? I don't have my book on hand!)

Sister GH - interesting thought about Idril! It never occured to me, but now I'm wondering - how did the weapons of Gondolin come to be there?!? Any ideas?

Alqua :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sister GH - interesting thought about Idril! It never occured to me, but now I'm wondering - how did the weapons of Gondolin come to be there?!? Any ideas?You know, I'm not sure that my recollection is correct. I may be confusing this with the troll hoard in the Hobbit. However, I did look up the passage in the FotR, and it says:

Then he (Tom) told them (the Hobbits) that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were ovecome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the land of Angmar.

The Hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow.

[Melko Belcha]

The weapons in the Barrowdowns were made by the Men of Westernesse and it is believed that Frodo was in the barrow of the last prince of Cardolan.

LotR - Appendix A
It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains. Those hills were therefore revered by the Dúnedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ringbearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409].

Dwarves do live along time, Glóin lived to be 253 years old (2783 - F.A. 15), but Dwalin lived to be 340 years old (2772 - 3112)

[The Gaffer]

I love the lines about Merry's sword in the Pelennor Fields. Hang on... (digs out ROTK)So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-Kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorceror king. No other blade, though mightier hands wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will
Phwoar! Wot a scorcher. And people wonder why we love this stuff.

Which makes you wonder why the Dunedain didn't plunder a few more of these and get themselves properly tooled up for some light Nazgul cleaving.:)

Which makes me wonder (if that's not too much wondering for one post) what happened to Frodo's sword when he took Sting from Bilbo?

[Alqualaure]

DOH!!! (Big slap on the forehead...)

I was thinking the same thing, Sister - mixed up with the troll hoard from The Hobbit. The sad part is that I just re-read FoTR and had it relatively fresh in my mind. (Granted, I'd read The Hobbit immediately before that...) Oh well, the memory is the first to go, right? ;)

Aside to Gaffer - what a great quote!!! About Frodo's sword - are you referring to the sword he originally had from the barrow? I believe that was broken during the attack on Weathertop... :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

I was thinking the same thing, Sister - mixed up with the troll hoard from The Hobbit. The sad part is that I just re-read FoTR and had it relatively fresh in my mind. (Granted, I'd read The Hobbit immediately before that...) Oh well, the memory is the first to go, right?LOL! Well, I started thinking about it, and I knew I wasn't crazy, just confused. Well, that happens when you get older.Heehee. Anyway, it would have been worse if I was sure of myself and then argued the point.:D

Btw, Alqualaure, welcome to Entmoot.:)

[Alqualaure]

Btw, Alqualaure, welcome to Entmoot.

Ah, thanks so much! I'm really enjoying consorting with fellow Tolkien fans! :D

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Alqualaure
That very well could be... Hmmm... I myself thought that from the line, "He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory..." that he had indeed known the lady who had worn the brooch. Also the line, "Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!", reinforces my notion (at least in my own little head - LOL)

If Tom was First, and had always lived there beside the downs, then he would have seen the rise and fall of kingdoms, and perhaps have known some of these people personally, don't you think? (I believe Tom describes the rise & fall of Arnor to the Hobbits during their visit, doesn't he? I don't have my book on hand!)

Mmm, you do have a good point. I just never thought about it that way. Perhaps Tom did know some of the people personally.

I wonder if they had a better clue about what Tom Bombadil really is. :D

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sauron was called: Gorthaur the Cruel, Sauron the Deceiver, the Lord of the Earth, the Enemy, the Master, the Dark Power, the Dark Lord, the Lord of Mordor, the Power of the Black Land, the Black Master, the Black one, the Lord of Barad-dur, the Lord of the Dark Tower, and the Shadow. He was also called: the Great eye, the Red eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, and the Evil eye. Also called: the Unnamed, the Nameless, the Nameless One, the Nameless eye, and He, or Him. Also: the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Ring, and the Ring Maker. He was called the Black Hand by Gollum, and he was known as Annatar when he aided Celebrimbor in the making of the Rings of Power.

In the old mythology he was called Thu.

Phew!

Adding to the long list: while appearing as Annatar, Sauron also called himself Aulendil (servant of Aulë).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thanks Kirinki.

Oh, and one more that I missed: he was also called the "Lidless eye."

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
Dwarves do live along time, Glóin lived to be 253 years old (2783 - F.A. 15), but Dwalin lived to be 340 years old (2772 - 3112)

Since this was most unusual, let me quote this from the Encyclopedia of Arda:

"It is unusual for a Dwarf to live longer than about 250 years, so at 340, Dwalin seems to have lived almost a century longer than almost any other his kind. This hints at an error, but Christopher Tolkien notes (in The History of Middle-earth volume 12) that Dwalin's date of death, given as as '3112' in years of the Third Age, remained consistent over several drafts. However, there is a very indefinite suggestion in an early document that his age at death should have been 251, in which case he would have died in the second year of the Fourth Age."

[Valandil]

I think the brooch belonged to a lady of a royal or noble house of Cardolan or Arthedain. I think Tom remembered her personally - and remembered seeing her wear it - whether they ever had a conversation together or not. His words make me think he's speaking of a certain individual - sort of wistfully. I had forgotten the vision... the one with a star on his brow would indicate the King of Arnor or Arthedain (bringing up the rear? Or held in last place for symbolic reasons with it being a vision??).

What other questions do you have for us, Laurelindorenan?

[Findegil]

Since we are collecting names for Sauron here I will also put in my two cents:
He was Called the Necromancer in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is also his name and only that of the book written about his downfall.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Since this was most unusual, let me quote this from the Encyclopedia of Arda:

"It is unusual for a Dwarf to live longer than about 250 years, so at 340, Dwalin seems to have lived almost a century longer than almost any other his kind. This hints at an error, but Christopher Tolkien notes (in The History of Middle-earth volume 12) that Dwalin's date of death, given as as '3112' in years of the Third Age, remained consistent over several drafts. However, there is a very indefinite suggestion in an early document that his age at death should have been 251, in which case he would have died in the second year of the Fourth Age."

I had forgot about that in HoME 12, but Tolkien has said that LotR contains errors, just wish I knew what they all are.

[Gæwan]

Listen, i speak a little bit of elvish and everything, but i heard this phrayse, and i'v been trying to translate and it doesn't translate right no matter how many times i'v tried. if someone could please help me translate it, i would REALLY apreciate it.

[azalea]

Welcome to the Moot, Gaewen! A good place to post questions about Elvish is the Middle Earth forum. There are two threads (at least) devoted to it, and the people there are quite knowledgable about translations. (One current thread is called "Tolkien's languages.")