Sam is overloving

[hectorberlioz]

Its seems to me that in the movies, sam is "overloving" torwards frodo. in the books(i know, the books are not the movies) sam always calls frodo "master" and in thhe movies he calls him frodo. the movies make sam love frodo to much.
Is anyone bothered by this?

[IronParrot]

No, I don't think there's a tremendous difference at all.

As for how he addresses Frodo, I think that change was made because modern audiences wouldn't understand the "master-servant" bond that Tolkien tried to espound. It's one of the ones I don't really agree with, but I see why it was done.

[Elfhelm]

In the books they kiss lips but not in the movies, so I say the opposite is true.

Note: Before getting distracted bu the modern significance of that act, please think outside our culture. Presumably lip kissing between hobbit gentlemen was normal expression of affection. The gesture had zero zilch nada none sexual meaning in their culture.

[hectorberlioz]

they dont kiss because of well...you know. it wasnt uncommon for people to kiss each other on the lips back then. only it wasnt for love, just a friends thing i guess.

Maybe youre right Ironparrot, maybe its me.

[Elf Girl]

O, it was for love. Not romantic love, but love as the truest of friends.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by IronParrot
As for how he addresses Frodo, I think that change was made because modern audiences wouldn't understand the "master-servant" bond that Tolkien tried to espound. It's one of the ones I don't really agree with, but I see why it was done. I questioned that move before the movies came out too. Interestingly enough, after watching the first two Jackson films, I'm finding it more and more difficult to read Sam calling Frodo 'Master' in the books.

[hectorberlioz]

thank you for phrasing it the way i could not, elfgirl.:D

[Evenstar1400]

PJ didnt have time to establish the master-servent bond in fotr, so PJ couldnt have sam calling frodo "master".

that make any sense?

[hectorberlioz]

no, it does not.

[Elf Girl]

Yes, it does.

[Spock]

Seeing it portrayed on film in the context of 21st Century moral and social upheaval can certainly give one pause. Without a backround in the books IMO it is very easy to get the wrong impression from the movies.

[Elfhelm]

Which "it"? Affection?

[Jedi X]

I thought the books portrayed a much more loving Samwise. The movie actor did a good job, I thought, of conveying the sense of 'philadelphia' with what little background the movie could provide and the absence of extensive narrative given in the books. All in all, though; I did not find a feeling of 'overlove' in the movies.

[hectorberlioz]

sam is not supposed to be more loving! to trash with the phelidelphia idea. sam should not be more loving. my name is sam and my friends (hardly friends anymore) take to calling me 'frodo's lover'. that is not why i started this thread though.

[Spock]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
sam is not supposed to be more loving! to trash with the phelidelphia idea. sam should not be more loving. my name is sam and my friends (hardly friends anymore) take to calling me 'frodo's lover'. that is not why i started this thread though.


....hmnmm seems there are some unconscious issues here.:D

[Sween]

lol this thread is so stupid. As is the idea that they way sam is in the movie is a bit homosexual cos thats what you are all scared to say. A lot of people seem to think that Frodo and Sam are gay boys which is just stupid. Sam is the truest of friends you could hope for and Frodo well Frdo needs a good friend doesnt he :p

[samwiselvr2008]

I think Sam was way more loveing in the books then in the movie, if you read through, it's alot more loving in the books, probally because PJ can't show on a screen what can be shown through the books.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Actually, in reply to the 'Master' vs. 'Frodo' deal, I think that Sam in the movies starts calling Frodo 'Master Frodo' and 'Mr. Frodo' a whole lot more in TTT than in the first film. Maybe that's just me.
Sam and Frodo are not gay! They are simply very good friends. Sam just cares very much for Frodo, and why not? We don't see too many life-long friendships like that anymore, but that is no reason to pick on them. And about the kissing in the books, I don't ever remember any lip-kissing. It just says 'kissed' as far as I remember. And if I went on a Quest like the one Frodo and Sam went on, the one person that went with me, although of inferior status, would quite quickly become my best friend. I should think that I would give her a peck on the cheek before leaving for Valinor.

p.s. It's SNOWING here!!! I cannnot believe it is snowing. We hates snow! We hates it forever! :rolleyes: :D :(

[Elfhelm]

Sam is my favorite character. One of the main reasons I like him so much is that he has no artifice. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't pretend to be your pal. If he loves you, he is not afraid to show it - except that he's shy concerning Rosie Cotton. But overcoming his shyness is one of the things he has to learn. Saying his feelings for Rosie was harder than climbing Mount Doom, but in the end he did it. Yes, it was easier to show his love for his comrades than his desire for his true love. But aside from that, he wears no mask and I just love him!

[The Gaffer]

I'm with you, Elfhelm. Sam is the emotional touchstone of the whole book.

It's a sad reflection that audiences can't deal with love between two men without going "fnarr, fnarr". If you're getting stick off your mates because of it, HB, maybe they need to grow up a bit. Homophobia is such a destructive thing, and not just towards gay people; it affects us all.

It's one of the most powerful themes of LOTR, and hats off to PJ and co for not editing it out.

I'm trying to think of other films which successfully portray this kind of love without being coy or macho about it but can't come up with any. Any ideas?

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Sam is my favorite character. One of the main reasons I like him so much is that he has no artifice. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't pretend to be your pal. If he loves you, he is not afraid to show it - except that he's shy concerning Rosie Cotton. But overcoming his shyness is one of the things he has to learn. Saying his feelings for Rosie was harder than climbing Mount Doom, but in the end he did it. Yes, it was easier to show his love for his comrades than his desire for his true love. But aside from that, he wears no mask and I just love him!

Totally!!! I don't think I ever really realized that that is one of the things I like most about Sam.
I like your wording of Sam's relationship with Rosie. Cute.

[hectorberlioz]

i admit. i was scared to say sam seemed a little homosexual in the movies. its because of ian mckellan. he said " it would be appreciated by gay people in the audience" and i'm saying sam should not be like that! thats the type of "overloving" i mean.

[Elfhelm]

Oh! You are refering to the comment that is on the voice over commentary on the extended DVD of Fellowship. He encouraged Sean Astin to take Elijah Wood's hand as he came running to the bedside. He pointed out that the gesture was in the book. Well, no matter what terms Ian used to discuss it beyond that, the act is not a homosexual act. It is just plain friendship. The taking of his hand is very tender, and in movies you have to show things. It's not enough to say them. I think the gesture works. Taking a friend's hand when he is on his sickbed and nearly died is really just ordinary behavior, even in America.

[Elfhelm]

To me, this reminds me of many scenes in war movies from the late 40's. And considering Tolkien's trench experiences, I would say it is appropriate.

Sam holding Frodo (http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/5807)

[hectorberlioz]

I trhink it was appropriate also. what i dont like is that ian mckellan gives you that impression that it was because they were gay(maybe he's subtly trying to incorporate it into the movies. thats the impression sam gives me in TTT. )

[cassiopeia]

Can't say I see Sam being homosexual in the movies. Sam held Frodo's hand in Rivendell in the book. If people want to interpret this as a homosexual act, let them. It never states in the books or movies whether Sam and Frodo were 'gay'. As McKellan is gay himself, perhaps he interprets their relationship as more than friends. And he's allowed to at that. But anybody who has read the book knows Sam ends up with Rosie.

[hectorberlioz]

Alright. case closed. no more posting here. let it go down...

[Elfhelm]

I think Ian was referring to the writers of fanfic, some of which is pretty absurd. Or maybe he was saying the fans would appreciate it if the actors followed the book (YES, PLEASE!!!!). In any case, I took my Dad's hand after his quadruple bypass operation. I was just SO GLAD that he was still with us. That's exactly what I sensed that Sean was conveying in that scene.

[hectorberlioz]

WOW! does no one see what i'm saying?
as i said. let this thread go down....

[Elf Girl]

Huh? Why? We're having a nice discussion, why do you want it closed?

[hectorberlioz]

go ahead then. i regret this thread, and i wont be part of it.(maybe)

[Elfhelm]

When I was 16 I would have been very uncomfortable with this discussion, so all I can do is empathize with you. It has been 31 years since I was 16, though, and it turned out my best friend was that way, so I had to learn to live and let live (or else miss out on incredibly intelligent and longwinded conversations about the entire history of music).

All I can guess he meant was that some of the fans are like him (and like my best friend), just as some are like you and some are like me. What most concerns US is that they stick to the book. Any interpretation beyond that is just normal fan behavior.

I think they stuck to the book, so I am happy with it.

[hectorberlioz]

Okay then. Thank you again Elfhelm.

[ryttu3k]

It's like what Tolkien experienced in the war - the fellowship and companionship in the trenches. I read that that was one of the most significant periods of his life, so of course love that deep will be in the books.

Yes, love. Pure and complete love, possibly more than Sam felt for Rosie. But no, not romantic or sexual love. It's like... the love you'd have for your child, only on equal footing. It's a higher love.

Having said that, I still think Frodo and Sam would have been a cute couple :D

[GrayMouser]

I think there was a lot more touchy-feely in FotR:

Bilbo hugging Gandalf at the beginning;

Bilbo hugging Frodo at Rivendell- in the book he self-consciously slaps him on the back to defuse the emotion of the moment.

Sam and Frodo hugging in the boat after Frodo rescues Sam, whereas in the book he comes out with "Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst."

I don't think that this is some hidden agenda, just a contrast between a more modern acceptance of emotional displays vs. traditional British reserve.

"But it is the way of my people to use light words at such time and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much."

I think the interaction between Sam and Frodo in TTT and RotK was about right.

But... do you think the bit about Sam wanting to marry Rosie (when they're waiting to be swept away by lava on the slopes of Mount Doom) was deliberately put in to deflect comments on the nature of their relationship?

[Elfhelm]

No. The connection between Sam and Rosie is highlighted in one of the first scenes in the theatrical release of Fellowship, expanded in the Extended version, and fundamental to the story. Sam is the hero and Rosie is the reason, in my opinion. We are all Sam. Frodo is who we wish we were, who suffers, is beaten down, who we have to carry up the mountain. The Frodo archetype doesn't get married because it's not about partnership, but Sam does because he's not an archetype.

Anyway, on the topic of physical contact and males expressing affection to one another, perhaps exploring the opinions of Tolkien and his friends on this matter would be more useful than encouraging teenage fears of ostraciziation.