Petty Dwarves

[ArwenEvenstar]

I haven't read the Sil for awhile and I lent my copy to a friend so i can't look it up myself and I don't even really know if it's in there anyway. So here is my question,

What is the difference between "real" dwarves and "petty" dwarves? In the chapters with the petty dwarves in the sil where they're with Mim and his sons there isn't really a difference that i noticed between regular dwarves and them. Only that they were kind of cowardly, but that may be because they were the last of their kind.

[Findegil]

They were a bit smaller than normal dwarves. And that they were "cowardly" could have been one of the reasons way they were band from the comunities of the other dwarves.

Respectfully
Findegil

[BelegS]

The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth, and the Elves did not at first recognize them as Incarnates, but thought them to be some kind of cunning animal, and hunted them. By their own account they were fugitives, driven into the wilderness by their own kin further east, and later they were called the Noegyth Nibin or Petty-dwarves, for they had become smaller than the norm of their kind, and filled with hate for all other creatures. When the Elves met the powerful Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the eastern side of the Mountains, they recognized them as Incarnates, for they had skill in many crafts, and learned the Elvish speech readily for purposes of traffic. At first the Elves were in doubt concerning them, believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth; but when they found that, though proud and unfriendly, they could be trusted to keep any treaties that they made, and did not molest those who left them in peace, they traded with them and let them come and go as they would

Quendi and Eldar, HOME 11

[ArwenEvenstar]

Ok thanks. You would think that the Elves would try to find out about them before they started hunting them.

[Attalus]

Since they caused the death of Elwe and the fall of Doriath, I'd say the Elves were justified in hunting the little buggers. :P

[Durin1]

Originally posted by Attalus
Since they caused the death of Elwe and the fall of Doriath, I'd say the Elves were justified in hunting the little buggers. :P

That's a bit harsh isn't it?

Recalling something that Tolkien states in The Hobbit when he makes an obscure reference to the apparent conflict: he states that it would be only fair to say that the Dwarves have a different account of what had happened.

I take this to mean that even Tolkien himself did not want to categorically state that the Dwarves were totally to blame for the killing of Elwe or the ruin of Doriath.

Whilst we're on the subject, I believe that Thingol's "lust", pride and arrogance would have been contributary factors in why Doriath fell. It could just as easily be said that he brought about his own downfall by becoming enamoured by the silmaril (not to mention that he caused the deaths of Beren and Luthien by demanding such an impossible request to gain a silmaril in the first place).

Finally, those "little buggers" were a noble and very ancient race who apparently also had some sub-creational faculties like the Elves. They shouldn't just be dismissed so casually.

The Petty-Dwarves were a "fallen" community from the great Houses of the Dwarves, they appeared to look and behave like animals and that was why the Elves would hunt them. Once they had met the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, they stoppped their activities, realising that they shouldn't have been so impetuous.

[Attalus]

I was speaking of the "Petty Dwarves," and JRRT is pretty harsh about them, too.

[Durin1]

In that case, could you explain to me what the Petty-Dwarves had to do with the killing of Thingol and the fall of Doriath? I'm getting a bit confused {scratches his head}

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Durin 1

Whilst we're on the subject, I believe that Thingol's "lust", pride and arrogance would have been contributary factors in why Doriath fell. It could just as easily be said that he brought about his own downfall by becoming enamoured by the silmaril (not to mention that he caused the deaths of Beren and Luthien by demanding such an impossible request to gain a silmaril in the first place). This, I am in total agreement with.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Durin1
In that case, could you explain to me what the Petty-Dwarves had to do with the killing of Thingol and the fall of Doriath? I'm getting a bit confused {scratches his head} I thought the Dwarves that killed Thingol were the same Dwarves that aided him in the building of Menegroth. I always assumed that it was these Dwarves that he sent with Finrod to guide him to the caverns of Narog and then aided him in the building of Nargothrond. These are the same Dwarves that fashioned the Nauglamir. They were not of the Petty Dwarves, right?:confused:

[Durin1]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I thought the Dwarves that killed Thingol were the same Dwarves that aided him in the building of Menegroth. I always assumed that it was these Dwarves that he sent with Finrod to guide him to the caverns of Narog and then aided him in the building of Nargothrond. These are the same Dwarves that fashioned the Nauglamir. They were not of the Petty Dwarves, right?:confused:

EXACTLY!

(PS - I wasn't really confused!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Durin1
EXACTLY!

(PS - I wasn't really confused!) :) I was.:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

How do you think the Dwarves of Ered Luin felt about the Petty Dwarves?

[Durin1]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do you think the Dwarves of Ered Luin felt about the Petty Dwarves?

We are told in The Sil that the Petty Dwarves were outcasts from the other Houses of the "normal" Dwarves. It is nowhere explicitly mentioned (as far as I can gather) why they became outcasts or renegades.

However, it is reasonable to infer, from the evidence available to us in The Sil, that they weren't so denegrated that the Dwarves of Ered Luin abandoned them totally. Indeed, we are told that the Dwarves, in fact, implored the Sindar not to continue attacking the Petty Dwarves and explained to them who and what they were.

I believe that the Dwarves felt the same way about the Petty Dwarves as we would, for example, do with our relations who have turned "bad" but nonetheless would still look out for them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Interesting. It would seem though, that by the time the Elves had stopped persuing them, they were already an endangered species as it were. Mim and his sons were the last of them. Correct?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
:) I was.:) Me, too.

[Findegil]

@Sister Golden Hair: Yes, the Sindar had nearly hunted them down as it seems.

The Dwarves that helped Finrod building Nargothrond had no problem to outcast the Pettydwarves from their anicient home the caves over the Narog.

But the Dwarves felt still a bound of kinship for them.

The Sindar did not hut the Pettydwarves just because they seemed to be animals. The Petty dwarves did attack the Elves at unawares and without any proclaim or bargain. That should supply reason enough for the Elves to hunt them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thank you much, Findegil. That's what I thought.:)

[ArwenEvenstar]

This has cleared up so much for me! Thanks.

One more question though: Where the Petty Dwarves from everywhere where there was dwarves or were they just in an isolated area before they were cast out?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
This has cleared up so much for me! Thanks.

One more question though: Where the Petty Dwarves from everywhere where there was dwarves or were they just in an isolated area before they were cast out? Not sure about that. They do seem to be wondering throughout Beleriand. The only place I know that is specifically mentioned where they dwelt, was the caverns of Narog, before it was Nargothrond.

[Durin1]

There is also that cryptic statement that Dwarves dwelt in Beleriand long before Elves came over the mountains.

Taking the point of view that the Dwarves couldn't have woken much long after the Elves, they must have had time to wander aroung the place, naming things etc. The statement would infer that Dwarves must have travelled quite a way into Beleriand but must have decided to set up in those places which were convenient to their needs i.e. the mountains or large hills. An example of this is when Mim tells Turin about Amon Rudh. Together with Nargothrond they would seem likely enough places for Dwarves to habitat.

[Eladar]

We are told in The Sil that the Petty Dwarves were outcasts from the other Houses of the "normal" Dwarves. It is nowhere explicitly mentioned (as far as I can gather) why they became outcasts or renegades.

There is this from The War of the Jewels The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven out from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land They were driven out for being too short, lazy and rebellious.

It is rather sad that Dwarves thought being short was some how inferior.