Elven family trees

[littleCat]

Okay, I'm confused, id Haldire(sp?) related to Arwen? Or legolas? And who is Glorfindil related to? I'm confused......:confused:

[Findegil]

As far as we know, and we didn't know to far actually, Haldir is not related to any other charachter in the book beside his companiens in the watch over the border of Lórien which are his brethern.

Arwen is the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn by way of their daughter Celebrian. Galadriel and Celeborn are both also independently related to Elrond. But the kinship is far sundered and complicated so I will not set it forth here.

Legolas is the son of Thranduil son of Oropher. But we do not know of any other kinship he has within the known Elves of Tolkiens storys.

About the kin of Glorfindel we do not know anything. He is a Noldor and from his golden hair we my assume that he has also some Vanyarin blood. Beside that we can only say that he is not nearly conected to the Finweans (the decendants of Finwe, the ruling house of the Noldor).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Elenion]

Note that Celeborn does refer to Legolas as kin: 'To seldom do my kindred journey here from the north'.
FotR

In PoME essay on Glorfindel, Glorfindel is said to be kin to Turgon (Turgon may be an error in the text for Fingolfin).

[Elf Girl]

However, 'kindred' in that quote almost certainly refers to the 'kindred' of the Elves, merely commenting on Legolas being an Elf.

[Tar-Elenion]

Then should it not be 'our' kindred, rather than 'my' kindred? Note that Oropher father of Thranduil (and possibly Thranduil as well) came from Doriath, as did Celeborn, it is possible that Oropher and Celeborn were related.

[Wayfarer]

Oropher and Celeborn were related. Thranduil and Celeborn are related, but we're not told in what way.

[littleCat]

I'm lost..........................

[Wayfarer]

Perhaps I could draw you a map? Where exactly are you trying to go?

[littleCat]

well, maybe the nearest elven family tree research site....or some place tropical......

[Wayfarer]

Now see, this is just the sort of thing that Falmon used to talk about. He'd say "You know guys, some day somebody is going to ask me 'Exactly how do all the elves in the LOTR relate to each other?' and by golly, I'll have an answer for them!"


So... where is he! :confused: ;)

[Finarwe]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Now see, this is just the sort of thing that Falmon used to talk about. He'd say "You know guys, some day somebody is going to ask me 'Exactly how do all the elves in the LOTR relate to each other?' and by golly, I'll have an answer for them!"
So... where is he! :confused: ;)
And considering that all elfs are from a few, that avoke at lake Cunniveien.... ;)
:confused: No, I don't wanna think about that! :confused:

littleCat, don't you have the Silmarillion? Or maybe you know someone who has it, cause there are some family trees in that book.

Uh, I just remember something: Look at this page: :)
http://homepages.pavilion.co.uk/users/rdowning/gloss/sgen.htm

[littleCat]

*meek look* no......i don't have the silmallarion......sorry.....i tried to read it, but it was boring, like reading the Elven bible....

[Millane]

Originally posted by littleCat
*meek look* no......i don't have the silmallarion......sorry.....i tried to read it, but it was boring, like reading the Elven bible.... yet elven family trees wouldnt:confused:

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by littleCat
*meek look* no......i don't have the silmallarion......sorry.....i tried to read it, but it was boring, like reading the Elven bible....
*splutter*

I am not going to answer that... I am NOT going to answer that...

[Durin1]

The fact is that Tolkien doesn't seem to have made any definitive structures of the various Elven family trees. His technique was to avoid mentioning extended families in any great detail so he would have the necessary scope and flexibility to introduce new characters or change links to characters for any future alterations. Therefore, it is probable that there is only a very few "canonical" realtionships between the various Elven Houses in Tolkien's works.

The histories of Galadriel and Gil-Galad seem to be prime examples of these anomolies. Tolkien never seems to have made his mind up about where they would fit into the bigger picture. CT admits that he was wrong to state that Ereinion Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon, after further reflections which indicate that JRRT himself, apparently, decided that he would be the son of Orodreth, who in turn would be the son of Angrod. Most people who have read The Sil will not find this satisfying as it goes against what they have previously believed to be true.

In short, we cannot categorically infer what the true relationships between the various characters would have been.

[Ñólendil]

There's no proof, Shannon, that Thranduil and Celeborn were related at all. Oropher's son was Thranduil, and Thranduil's son was Legolas, beyond that, we don't know much. Celeborn greets Legolas as his kinsman, but he may have meant: "You are of the Eluwaith, as I am." Eluwaith being the Grey-elven name for the Sindar. We do something of Celeborn's family tree. Celeborn had one brother: Galathil, and a niece: Nimloth, who married Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien. Celeborn's father was Galadhon, and Galadhon's father was Elmo. Elmo's brother was Elwe, also known as Thingol, husband to Melian, father of Lúthien. Celeborn happens to be Galadriel's fourth cousin (Galadriel being descended from Olwe, and Celeborn from Elmo, and Olwe and Elmo being brothers).

I'm not sure how Oropher would fit into the picture, but then, CÃ*rdan and possibly Eöl have to fit in somehow too.

[Wayfarer]

There you are. ;)

Proof, you say? Bah.

Not proof, just a suggestion of some possible relationship.

Celeborn is introduced as a kinsman of Thingol, and Oropher came east from Doriath. Given that Oropher (or Thingol) as able to get himself made king of Mirkwood (as Celeborn became Lord of Lothlorien) might indicate that he was at least a lord in Doriath.

I do think it's likely that by 'Kin from the North' Celeborn may have meant 'Northern Elf', but it's also possible that he may have considered Legolas kin through his grandfather.

This is why I prefer metaphysics. Hard facts or the lack of them doesn't always getting in your way. ];-)

[Findegil]

Let's go back to the facts: As Tar-Elenion said: Celeborn does address Legolas as kinsman.

That does not mean that he had a kinship by blood to Thranduil, the connection between Celeborn and Legolas could also have been on the side of Legoals unknown mother.

On the other hand we have to take into account when these quote was written. When JRR Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Ring Celeborn a native King of Lórien. He was naturally the brother of Amroth and became King when Amroth went away with Nimrodel.
Later to these two was Amdir added as a father. At the same time as the decendens of Legolas and his father Thranduil from Oropher was developt. Both Amdir and Oropher were Sindar out of Doriath and since one of them builded his kingship west of Anduin and the other east of the Anduin a conection between them is realy very proable.
Later the ancestry of Celeborn was changed to the one Nolendil did post. Even later Celeborn was changed to a Teler named Teleporno and being a grandson of Olwé of Aqualond (he was therewith a first cousin of Galadriel, but that does not prof that idea worng because in Laws and costums first cousins might marry if the not related parents were far sundered, which is true for Galadriel and Teleporno).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Anadriewen]

Man, are you ppl smart! I have no idea where you figure this kind of stuff out! :confused:

[Elf Girl]

Um... we read the books? Most of what's been discussed is readily accesible in the Sil, for some of it one must go into HoME.

[Anadriewen]

I haven't finished reading Sil yet so that makes sence. I also happen to be rather slow so...;)

[Nurvingiel]

As was already pointed out, you have to at least read the Silmarillion if you want an answer LittleCat. The first part is tough, but it's well worth toughing it out. You'll get into a rhythm and soon enjoy it. There's a lot of really interesting stuff in there, so what if it's practically un-edited? :D
At one point in Lord of the Rings, Aragorn sings the Lay of Beren and Luthien. The entire backstory behind that is explained, and it is so good! It's full of action, and reads more easily than the first part of the book. Go forth and read the Sil my friend! Er, no pressure. :)
I haven't read HoME, but it's on the list.