What's up with Faramir in TTT

[Athelwinde]

You see in the movie Faramir, who seems quasi evil, who captures Frodo and Sam and forces them to Osgiliath, and then you read the book and he's a pretty good guy, so why the difference?

[Wayfarer]

*leans close and whispers*

Peter Jackson is a no-talent hack, and an idiot besides.

[azalea]

Here are a few old threads that deal w/ different aspects of that topic:

Mean Faramir (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6462)

Another one (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6656)

And another one (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6942)

[Snowdog]

I'm sure the extended edition TT will develop the family characteristics that make Faramir the way he is. No, he won't be the Faramir many of us (who read the books before the advent of the movies) had come to know, but it may make more sense as far as the movie-Faramir goes.

[kiwi52291]

Poor Faramir:( He's become one of my favorite characters in the book now that they've trashed him in the movie.

[Black Breathalizer]

Here is my prediction:

Fans will see the Extended version of TTT which includes an extensive backstory of Faramir, Boromir, and Denethor.

Fans will then see ROTK and the Extended version of ROTK.

Movie Faramir will become one of the movie trilogy's most beloved characters.

Remember this so I won't have to say "I told you so." :)

[Athelwinde]

Possibly, yeah, it might be in the extended TTT, but why show him that way in the first place? Does Peter Jackson have something against him??

[Sheeana]

Here's MY prediction:

BB will get slapped silly with a very large trout.

[Gulio, Strength of Many]

Now now, it's not nice to slap people with fishes.:D But as for the Faramir thing, I was really unhappy with the way PJ portrayed him, being the 'bad guy' and all. But you can't please everyone I guess...

[Rosie Gamgee]

Ditto. BUT, why did Faramir hafta change for the movie?! This is one thing I will never understand. I know that for movies that one makes based on books have to be condensed and reshaped a bit to make into a watchable movie, but why do the IMPORTANT parts in the story have to be switched around?! What would have been so hard about keeping Faramir as he is supposed to be? Why can he not be a better man than his brother (let's face it), and not just repeat the same mistakes Boromir made?? Arg.:mad:

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

LOL!

Peter Jackson is a no-talent hack, and an idiot besides.

As a no-talent hack, myself, and a bit of an idiot, I sure wish my bank account was as extensive as his.:D

Seriously, though, I was a bit of PJ fan before LotR, and I had a feeling that his adaptation was not going to make hardcore, purist fans happy. That’s alright, though. Really, though, who could? I know a lot of people who hadn’t even heard of Tolkien before, and now, because of the movies, are reading Tolkien for the first time. Way to go, PJ!;)

Faramir? Simple… conflict of interest. One of PJ’s themes was the weakness of men. According to his plan, only Aragorn is supposed to be that paragon of human virtue. Faramir is a character abruptly introduced in the second movie, and he’s a minor character in comparison to Aragorn. A great and upstanding picture of virtue in Faramir would, in this schema, lessen the impact of Aragorn’s characterization.

--Dave

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
Faramir? Simple… conflict of interest. One of PJ’s themes was the weakness of men. According to his plan, only Aragorn is supposed to be that paragon of human virtue. Faramir is a character abruptly introduced in the second movie, and he’s a minor character in comparison to Aragorn. A great and upstanding picture of virtue in Faramir would, in this schema, lessen the impact of Aragorn’s characterization.

Hmm, I don't know Guillaume (Welcome to the entmoot by the way :)), it's sounds a bit too easy. Especially since in the movie Aragorn has all these doubts about his kingship. And Elrond talks him so very easily into letting Arwen go. If he's supposed to be the paragon of virtue than we humans are very, very screwed indeed. ;)

Faramir may be a minor character in TTT in comparison with Aragorn but his role gains importance in RoTK. Messing up his character now means messing up more later to straigthen out the mistake.

[Black Breathalizer]

The character we all know and love from the books will be seen in all his glory in the EE TTT and ROTK.

The issue with Faramir in the theatrical release of TTT was simply editing. PJ has great stuff on Faramir but he is a secondary character in TTT and time was not available to present all sides of the character. In the EE, we will see a much more 'fleshed out' (and more flattering) verison of Faramir on film.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The character we all know and love from the books will be seen in all his glory in the EE TTT and ROTK.

The issue with Faramir in the theatrical release of TTT was simply editing. PJ has great stuff on Faramir but he is a secondary character in TTT and time was not available to present all sides of the character. In the EE, we will see a much more 'fleshed out' (and more flattering) verison of Faramir on film.

I won't make any such statements about Faramir being more like the way Faramir ought to be in the extended TTT or RoTK until I saw both of them.

Until then I stick to these words: He'd BETTER.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Eärniel, aye, your right in saying: “in the movie Aragorn has all these doubts about his kingship”. Once again, though, we see a bit of PJ’s extra-Tolkien theatrics. Aragorn isn’t supposed to be a paragon of virtue in the beginning, but goes through a kind of Telemachian journey of self discovery in which he comes to realize the strength he already possesses. It is about overcoming self-doubt. A very stock literary and cinematic vehicle, but hey! it worked for Homer.

Now contrast Aragorn’s Telemachian journey to a Faramir who automatically possesses enough virtue to overcome the lure of the one ring. It just doesn’t work within PJ’s scheme. I don’t necessarily think that PJ’s Faramir is “messed up.” In the end Faramir lets Frodo, Sam and Gollum go, and thus allows the ring fall out of his hands. I think this bolsters PJ’s Faramir and sets the character up for further development in RotK.

At any rate, it should be realized that we are dealing with PJ’s Faramir, not Tolkien’s. For those who believe that PJ should have religiously followed the letter of Tolkien law, then, of course, it is blasphemy to speak of “PJ’s Faramir.” On the other hand, I didn’t expect to find a movie that religiously followed the books word for word. I’m trying to let the movies speak for themselves. So far, I don’t think there is enough evidence to say that PJ’s Faramir is an insult to Tolkien’s, or to the “spirit of Tolkien.” Of course, determining what exactly the “spirit of Tolkien” is, is a matter of intense debate.

Thanks for the welcome, Eärniel! :D

BB, after re-watching the DVD a couple of times, I’m inclined to disagree with you about the editing issue. I think that PJ did a good job with the theatrical release in demonstrating his major themes and getting his point across. True, it doesn’t cast Faramir in the best light, but then again does the Faramir in the movie have to be, like it’s a matter of life or death, be cast in a good light? Like I said, I don’t think doing so would have achieved PJ’s artistic aims.

Regards,
Dave

[nessa]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The character we all know and love from the books will be seen in all his glory in the EE TTT and ROTK.

The issue with Faramir in the theatrical release of TTT was simply editing. PJ has great stuff on Faramir but he is a secondary character in TTT and time was not available to present all sides of the character. In the EE, we will see a much more 'fleshed out' (and more flattering) verison of Faramir on film.

How can that be BB when PJ has already set the scene for Faramir's character? He can flesh it out all he wants but he has still corrupted the Faramir character from the book. He would have to contradict himself? At no time did Faramir display those traits that Boromir did. PJ has melded the two together and has given Faramir the same desires as his brother, proll more then Boromir possessed.:confused:

[hectorberlioz]

there are worse things than faramir guys...But really I think Peter Jackson did a great job, despite all the stuff we nitpick at. He's not the only one on the script after all. I think since they left Shelob out of TTT, the end of it was a bit sloppy. Only the parts having todo with Osgiliath, though.
The bad thing about faramir is his taking them to gondor then deciding- after hearing sam's romantical speach-to let them go. stupidity in screenwriting. but its not all pj's fault.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by nessa
How can that be BB when PJ has already set the scene for Faramir's character? He can flesh it out all he wants but he has still corrupted the Faramir character from the book. He would have to contradict himself? At no time did Faramir display those traits that Boromir did. PJ has melded the two together and has given Faramir the same desires as his brother, proll more then Boromir possessed.The movie added more drama to Frodo's meeting with Faramir, but the result was essentially the same. Unlike Boromir, Faramir resisted the temptation of the ring for himself. He was motivated to please his father by presenting him "a gift that will change our fortunes in this war." We will understand a great deal more about the reason behind this motivation in the Extended DVD. Due to the editing of the theatrical release of TTT, Faramir didn't come off as classy as he truly is but the audience will get a deeper appreciation for him in the upcoming releases. But there was nothing in the movie that "corrupted" Faramir's character from the books.

Regarding the ending, Faramir wasn't just responding to Sam's speech to Frodo. Right before the Nazgul attack, he had also heard Sam's outburst that the ring had driven his brother Boromir mad. This was also a factor in his ultimate decision to let Frodo go.

[Elf Girl]

But Boromir too did not want it for himself. He wanted only to give it to the enemies of Sauron: Gondor, his father. That's what Faramir wanted in the movie.

You really think the majority of people who watched TTT will buy the EE?

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
But Boromir too did not want it for himself. He wanted only to give it to the enemies of Sauron: Gondor, his father. That's what Faramir wanted in the movie.

You really think the majority of people who watched TTT will buy the EE? Yes, Boromir wanted it for himself. Boromir to Frodo: "If you would just lend me the ring..." Faramir felt the same temptation to take the ring for himself that Boromir faced but resisted and showed his quality.

Buy? No. But I think the majority of people who watched TTT will watch the EE. :)

[Black Breathalizer]

This is a good thread to bring back to Page One prior to Extended TTT Tuesday.

Most of the criticisms of the movie (Faramir, the sudden appearance of Theodred's horse, etc.) will be addressed in the Extended edition. Truth be told, many fans found the FOTR EE to be far superior to the theatrical release. It will be the same way with TTT's EE.

[Elf Girl]

Yes, but does having him be different in the EE somehow make it okay that his character was mangled in the theatrical release?

[Bacchus]

After some careful thought, I'm not so sure that F was quite so mangled as is commonly thought.

Now, before someone sentences me to 500 lashes with the manuscript of TTT, allow me to elaborate:

Movie: Faramir's men capture Frodo and Sam, there is a brief interrogation, Gollum is captured, Faramir discovers that Frodo has the Ring, decides to take Frodo to MT, and eventually releases him at Osgiliath.

Book: Faramir's men capture Frodo and Sam, there is a brief interrogation in the field, additional discussion at Henneth Annun reveals the Ring, Faramir abides by his hasty pledge, but makes no decision on Frodo and Sam's disposition, Gollum is captured and questioned, Frodo, Sam and Gollum are released.

Notice that, aside from some minor timing issues regarding Gollum, the only substantive difference is the timing and location of Frodo's release. The 'chance for Faramir to show his quality' line is lifted directly from book. The only difference is that b-F defers his decision on Frodo, while m-F initially decides one thing, only to later repent and correct his error.

Faramir remains differentiated from Boromir in that he never attempts to take the Ring from Frodo. Even book-Faramir considered taking Frodo to MT after forebearing to take the Ring.