Swords in the Troll's Cave

[Athelwinde]

In the chapter called "Roast Mutton", the Dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf go to the trolls cave and find some very ancient and interesting swords.

My question for discussion is
1. How did the trolls, of all people, get a hold of these swords from Gondolin, especially since the land of Beleriand was sunk?

[azalea]

Booty.
Maybe they were there and made off with it.
Or maybe they stole it from orcs who had gotten it from the battle.
(I don't really know, I'm just guessing:) )

My question to add to this discussion is: Isn't it interesting that Gandalf has to have Elrond tell him more about the swords? I know Elrond has been around ME longer, but Gandalf can read Elvish, right? And certainly he'd know his history! (Aside from the fact that the Hobbit stuff can't always fit exactly into later stuff, it's just fun to wonder about.)

[Spock]

Even a wizard can't be expected to know everything about everything. History of armament isn't necessary to keeping watch over the Shire, etc. As Elrond was who he was, he would have that knowledge to "fill in the gaps" of Gandalf's knowledge.
As for possession of the swords, Orcs dwelt underground alot and pillaged where and when they could. Whether as a result of battle or luck, they could have come across these swords and then the Trolls just took them when they stompped the Orcs into oblivion.;)

[Wayfarer]

Let's see if we can form a hypothetical history:

Gondolin was destroyed by an army that was mainly orcs, although the Balrog Wing Corps seems to have put in an appearance. If what happened in Nargothrond is any indication, then a lot of stuff would have just been left there. I can't imagine any Orcs being willing to steal a pair of swords the mere sight of which, three ages later, sends them into a panic. It's more likely that it was stolen by men or dwarves, or perhaps taken by elves which returned after the enemy had withdrawn. From there, it probably made its way through numerous hands across middle earth until it ended up with Bert, Tom, and Bill.

It's quite possible that whoever was carrying them had been heading towards rivendell when they were *ahem* apphrehended.

[durin's bane]

I agree with Wayfarer. The Orcs stole the swords from the battle, but upon realizing they were Elvish swords, they hid or buried them. Then some Elves came to recover them or some Dwarves looking for treasure found them, but later on were ambushed by the trolls and the swords stolen and the previous holders dead.

[Spock]

....ahem.....WMD......I can't believe I said that.:rolleyes:

[azalea]

You're right, I like that version of their history.:)

[Athelwinde]

I may (or may not) have an answer to the question asked by azalea.

Elrond had lived on ME longer, and before Gandalf ever came to ME. Gandalf came in the 1000th year of the Third Age (at least, thats when he's first mentioned) and therefore didn't know as much as one who's fathers and relatives had actually fought in the First Age.

[Bombadillo]

Well, I don't know about Azalea's question. It probably would be nice to wonder about but I'm too tired. So I'll just say the story changed a bit in LotR.

To Athelwinde:
I always thought that the trolls simply killed everybody who used to own those artifacts and ate them, keeping the weapons and whatnot as treasures, which seemes to be a trait in such vile beings as trolls and dragons and Gollum.
But that's just assuming that the average lifespan of a troll is longer than an ents'.

[nazgul prince]

How does everyone picture them? I think both glamdring and orcrist were gold and silver hilted with many gems.There scabbards ivory with silver stars and gold flowers traced on them.There blades mirror polised with the runes going up the blade like sting in the movie.And they were light as a feather that explains Thorin being able to weild so easily even if they were long swords.I picture sting pretty much the way it is in the movie exept shorter with no runes on the blade.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Although rarely mentioned (I recall only "the troll guard of Gothmog {Lord of Balrogs})in in the Silmarillion for some reason, trolls were bred in the First age and to have been used by morgoth in his wars. This is also mention in LoTR (appendix) and HoME. Gothmog himself was at(and killed) the attack on Golndolin, so presumably his troll guard were tere, as well as other troll units.

[Findegil]

When I recall rightly from my memory, Gandalf and Elrond wonder about the same question: How came the Trolls to posses these swords? And one of the two said that Gondolin was destroied by Orks and Dragons.
In no account of the attack on Gondolin were Trolls ever mentioned. Balrogs and especialy Gothmog fighted in that battle. But the attack on Gondolin was very special. The advance of the attackers into the plain of Gondolin was superfast and the Balrogs were needed to guide a kind of Dragons/Monsters "that were like ropes of molten metal".
Since we have Elrond and Gandalf wondering about the Trolls have a part of the booty of that plundering I would denie that any Troll was seen in that battle. And as a reason for that I think that they could not run fast enough over the encircling Hills and that Gothmog had no use for his rather lumpish Trollguard when he guided theses "creators of pure flame".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Wayfarer]

Ach!

No! Bad! That version of the mythology was thrown out for good reasons, and it doesn't fit anywhere in the final continuium. Robo-dragons carrying orcs in their stomachs and snakes made out of fire do not exist in middle earth. :p Besides which, that draft was written back when balrogs were still a cavalry corps.

[Findegil]

Wayfarer, The Fall of Gondolin was published during Tolkiens life time! It is the only version we have of that battle. All what we later get are very short summaries and even the newest of that is totally outdated. So if you like to have any details you have to take them out of that version.

Now to some pionts in your answer:
"the final continuium" - Would you please explain what you mean by that?

"Robo-dragons carrying orcs in their stomachs" - Where is it denied that these "serpents of iron" fited in the later mhytology? It is explecit noted that they were new devised for that battle and did never agian showe up until the final battle. Beside that the orks used occasonily siege engines and builded them as well and were descriebed in the Hobbit as using rather machines than thier hands for any work. So why not for transport?

"snakes made out of fire do not exist in middle earth" - Please, read the describtion of the Dagor Bargollach! The only enhancment that the "serpents of pure fire" in The Fall of Gondolin had in comparison to the streams of fire in the Bargollach was that they were able to climb over the Echoriad, and may be they were better guidable. But for what else did Morgoth use his sourcerers when not for the development of the means of his war.

"Besides which, that draft was written back when balrogs were still a cavalry corps." On this point we agree. And it is clear that you can't take The Fall of Gondolin one to one. But to say that it didn't contribute anything is clearly wrong.

It is clear that you can restrict your view on the matters of Middle-Earth so that The Fall of Gondolin is not included (but since it was acctually published, it is not so easy as it seems to rule it out), but than you should stop answering any questions about it, since what you will know about it is only that there was a city named Gondolin and that it was destroyed by Dragons and Orks.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

If we take into account the level of detail of the description of the battle and of Morgoth's creatures in the FoG, I think it is very unlikely that there were any trolls there at all since they're not anywhere mentioned.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Artanis
If we take into account the level of detail of the description of the battle and of Morgoth's creatures in the FoG, I think it is very unlikely that there were any trolls there at all since they're not anywhere mentioned. Trolls are not mentioned anywhere in the BolT except on reference in a late note note to the Hisrory of eril or Aelfwine. They do not appear in the Appendix (ofnames )to BolT 1 where the other races are named. It appear they were not part of BolT at all utill some late thoughts on rewriting of it. Yet they are part of Morgoths armies in the Published Canon. Thus their absence from a Chapter (all the chapters) of BoLT is no evidence for where they would be in the Arda of the Silmarillion.

[Findegil]

You are right Lefty, but the suspicious of Gandaf and/or Elrond how these Trolls got the swords is a strong evidenc against any Troll in the battle of Gondolin and it is clearly a reference even from what Michael Martinez calls "core cannon".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maedhros]

Findegil, I think you made a very good point in your description of the various dragons/monsters in the Mechanical Monsters in the Barrows. Could you be so kind as to post the various types of monsters in this thread for clarity.
As we have discussed already, and while in the later mythology there seems to be no mention of Mechanical monsters, it is entirely possible that one would need such monsters for the attack of a city as well guarded and in the special position that Gondolin was. A special city requires especial means of attack.
The basic problem that i see with the Tale is the number of Balrogs involved in the attack, not the mechanical monsters.

[Artanis]

Canon. It doesn't tell me much since everyone seem to have their own canon. Lefty, what do you include in Published Canon, and Findegil, what is included in MM's core canon?

[Fat middle]

Canon! I hate that word when referring to Tolkien's works. It reminds me of the, often absurd, discussions at the Jedi Council about the Star Wars canot.

And now, about the topic: Remember that Glamdring was owned by Turgon himself. I don't think any elf that would have found the sword would have use it, save one who could claim inherintance from him.

But I agree with Wayfarer that no orc would have treasure those elvish swords.

The only answer I find for the enigma are the dragons. How many dragons were there at the battle of Gondolin? Did any of them lived later in "the mountains of the North" mentioned by Elrond?

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:Findegil, what is included in MM's core canon? The last editions of every Book of JRR Tolkien about Middle-Earth published during JRR Tolkiens livetime.
I will not relock the edition numbers but basicly that means:
The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes ever On

Posted by Maedhros:Findegil, I think you made a very good point in your description of the various dragons/monsters in the Mechanical Monsters in the Barrows. Could you be so kind as to post the various types of monsters in this thread for clarity. Since our discussion in Downs had gone beyond my original post, I can't simply copy it to this board. I will see if I can rework it, too make it understandable with out the discussion preciding it in the Downs and taking up the recend developments in the further discussion.

Posted by Wayfarer:I can't imagine any Orcs being willing to steal a pair of swords the mere sight of which, three ages later, sends them into a panic. Did they panic, when Orcrist was shown to the great Orc? I don't think so. Thes did pnaic when Glamding and later Orcrist was used against them.
And for what propose had the Orcs in The Hobbit brought the sword into the cave if not for use or hord as a booty?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Valandil]

Since it was around 6500 years between the sack of Gondolin and the discovery of these swords in the trolls' lair, and because they were recognized by the orcs (perhaps used against them in the War of the Orcs and Dwarves?), I suspect the swords shared quite a history - and probably changed hands many times.

Here's a wild one for you though: Arador, grandfather of Aragorn, was taken by trolls and killed just 11 years before Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin & Co. had their own troll encounter in the same general area. Could these three trolls have been the trolls who killed Arador?

They sure seem kind of bumbling to pull it off - but Tolkien was using a different style when he wrote The Hobbit. And Arador obviously didn't have Gandalf along.

Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with?

[Rían]

Good theory about Arador and the swords, Valandil! So many fun things to speculate about ...

I always wondered what Elrond thought when he recognized his great-grandfather's sword ... he seemed rather matter-of-fact about it. I would think he would have been more touched by the sorrow of the memory of the Fall of Gondolin.

I wondered about Thorin being buried with the sword, too, but I guess it was "finders, keepers", and he DID find it.

[Valandil]

*bumping* this for a few reasons:

1. To help spur more discussion in the Hobbit forum.

2. To encourage others to look for interesting older threads to revive.

3. Because our "unofficial discussion project" is a bit stalled - and this topic fits right into about where we are.

:)

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with? Maybe the swords were carried by the Gondolin survivors, in the Sirion. From here you can just guess what happened to them until they got to the trolls - maybe the trolls attacked them. Which sounds likely.
About Arador... The only question is, why would he carry the Gpondolin swords, but it sounds logical, that he had them.

I think it was buried with Thorin because it was his sword, and its history doesn't matter. It is considered his sword like Glamdring considered Gandalf's sword.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm guessing the swords were already there as the trolls mention they had only moved down from the mountain 2 weeks before so maybe it was an elvish storage place that had been forgottan about or deserted.

[Haradrim]

I think probably what happened was that several elves came back to the battle site. They probably searched the dead to see if anyone was still alive or tosearch for anythin gof value. THey found the swords and took them . Eventually they were passed from elf to elf. Maybe at one point while an elf was roaming outside of rivendell The three trollsd pounced. COnsidering that there was an elf with a sword like those there probably was a fourth troll. The remaining three kill the elf take the swords, not caring if they used to kill orcs cuz theua re goblins and then they put it in their cave and then our little group of adventurers comes along.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why would elves look in the bodies of their dead, For profit? I think they'd burry them, with the sword - like Thorin. Also, I don't think they had time to search for other Elves - as they were running away of Morgoth's forces, and probably didn't have much time.

And, I can't see how an Elf could get back to Gondolin after it was ruined, since not many knew the way, and Morgoth ruled those lands.

[Haradrim]

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.

[Radagast The Brown]

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.It seems quite comlicated to me, and without any need - what about the Elves just taking the swords while running away, and being attacked by trolls, somewhere? Or the trolls taking the swords themselves from Gondolin?

[Haradrim]

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. So I figured that ruled out the whole trol thing but also I didnt think the elves would take the weapons from their dead but let them keep it like thorin. Thats what someone said, cant remember who.

[Radagast The Brown]

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. So I figured that ruled out the whole trol thing but also I didnt think the elves would take the weapons from their dead but let them keep it like thorin. Thats what someone said, cant remember who.I have. :) I meant - maybe the swords weren't used in the battle, as Morgoth surprised them, and the Elves took them as thye were special and inmportant.

[Haradrim]

hmm interesting theroy. It does make since. In that case they would have been beaten by trolls outside Rivendell and then those trolls put them in their cave until Bilbo. But then again why would the elves not use the sword specifically having to do with orc slaying in a fight with orcs. It just raises more and more questions! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :)

[Radagast The Brown]

hmm interesting theroy. It does make since. In that case they would have been beaten by trolls outside Rivendell and then those trolls put them in their cave until Bilbo. But then again why would the elves not use the sword specifically having to do with orc slaying in a fight with orcs. It just raises more and more questions! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :)Simply didn't have time to go and look for them. :) And, you don't really know where they were attacked - could well be in Beleriand, too.

[Haradrim]

yeah thats true. So the elves keep the swords that are specifically used for fighting orcs (s little odd) are wayleighed somwhere on their way home. Then those trolls put the swords in their caves until Bilbo comes along. Its possible except the removal of the swords from the battle. If they strike fear in orcs then why wouldnt they be used. Also didnt Elrond say that they were used in Gondolin.

[HLGStrider]

I hate to pop in just to be a fault finder who can't back info, but on the other site I'm on, the Arador and the Trolls theory was brought up and another member pointed out that the Trolls that slew Arador were one species and the trolls that had the swords were another.

Cave and Wood or Wood and Stone were something like the names he gave to them. I argued that Stone Trolls was just describing them because they were made of stone when they reappear in LotR's but he argued with a few back up quotes that there are actually two species, and Stone Troll is one of them.

Hill Troll? Something like that.

As I said, I dont' have the quotes with me, but there are quotes to that effect.

[Valandil]

I hate to pop in just to be a fault finder who can't back info, but on the other site I'm on, the Arador and the Trolls theory was brought up and another member pointed out that the Trolls that slew Arador were one species and the trolls that had the swords were another.

Cave and Wood or Wood and Stone were something like the names he gave to them. I argued that Stone Trolls was just describing them because they were made of stone when they reappear in LotR's but he argued with a few back up quotes that there are actually two species, and Stone Troll is one of them.

Hill Troll? Something like that.

As I said, I dont' have the quotes with me, but there are quotes to that effect.

Ah yes - 'Hill Troll' sounds familiar for the chief suspects in Arador's murder. Hmmm... I wonder if they actually WERE different species, or just called by various names. Or even... *gasp*... IN LEAGUE WITH ONE ANOTHER!!! :eek:

;) :p

EDIT: PS - did this 'other theory' also bring up the possibility that Arador & Co. were carrying the swords of Gondolin? Huh? Huh? Or did I getcha there?? :p :D

[Nurvingiel]

Nice bump HGLStrider. I have a theory too... what if orcs looted the swords after the battle, but recognized them for what they were, and tossed them? The orcs in the Hobbit hated the swords, calling the Biter and Beater, so it seems they recognized them. Maybe the swords were part of horrible tales used to frighten orc children, and the orcs remembered the weapons.
Other looters could have picked up the discarded swords, to be eventually stolen by the trolls where Gandalf and company then obtained them.

EDIT: Bump credited to the right person. ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Val didn't bump it HLGStrider did! ;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. And some of us (particularly the most Intellignet ;) ) Believe they were there.

[HLGStrider]

Nice bump HGLStrider. I have a theory too... what if orcs
EDIT: Bump credited to the right person. ;)

Thanks for the credit. . but I am curious why it is so easy to call me HGLStrider. If it were just you I'd say TYPO, but half the people on my other forum used to do that too.

[Roland]

As I am sure you will recall, the sword taken from the Troll's cave had belonged to heroes. At any rate they were quite famous. Heroes, or those who wield famous swords are unlikely to be killed in a single battle. They probably escaped and were kill afterwards by marauding orks, from whom the trolls stole them.

[Findegil]

Of Gandalfs sword Glamdring it was told by Elrond in the Hobbit that it was the sword of the king of Gondolin. Gondolin had have only one king and that was Turgon. His death in the Battle that brought his city to ruin is attested, what ever version of the story you look at.
Turgon did in the end refuse to fight and died in the Fall of his tower standing un the top of it when it was crushed. But nither for Glamdring nor for Orcrist or Stich we have any text that suggests that they were take out of Gondolin by the Elves. At the conteray we have Elronds saying in the Hobbit:"... They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. ..."

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

Now you know what I'm going to say so... I'm not! :D :confused: :rolleyes:

[Mouth of the Dark Lord]

In the chapter called "Roast Mutton", the Dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf go to the trolls cave and find some very ancient and interesting swords.

My question for discussion is
1. How did the trolls, of all people, get a hold of these swords from Gondolin, especially since the land of Beleriand was sunk?

The trolls probably just slaughtered the swords' wielders, being heroes, or descendants of the heroes, or whatever and kept the loot from their bodies.

[Gordis]

Sorry it is off-topic, but it is really curious how 2 swords (or a sword and a dagger) from Gondolin could have ended in a troll den in Rhudaur... Perhaps a high elf was killed there during the Angmar wars?

[Landroval]

- I could not say, said Elrond, but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.
From A short rest, The hobbit.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quote, Landroval. :)

Some hoard... That means still that a Gondolin elf was killed in the Second or the Third age, as otherwise the weapons would have been drowned with Beleriand.

I think my explanation is also plausible, as at the times of "the Hobbit" the conception of Rhudaur and the Angmar wars had not yet arisen.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there is one version of the forging of the rings, IIRC, that says that Celebrimbor was an elf of gondolin, and he lived in eregion in the second age, seems plausible to me that he would have swords from gondolin...

[Gordis]

In the Second Age Celebrimbor lived in Eregion, indeed, till he was slain by Sauron around SA 1695. So whatever may have been saved from Ost-in Edil could have found ist way to Moria nearby.

But Celebrimbor was not from Gondolin, but from Nargothrond. He was a son of Curufin, son of Feanor, who decided to stay with Orodreth.

There was tumult in Nargothrond. For thither now returned many Elves that had been prisoners in the isle of Sauron; and a clamour arose that no words of Celegorm could still. They lamented bitterly the fall of Felagund their king, saying that a maiden had dared that which the sons of Fëanor had not dared to do; but many perceived that it was treachery rather than fear that had guided Celegorm and Curufin. There fore the hearts of the people of Nargothrond were released from their dominion, and turned again to the house of Finarfin; and they obeyed Orodreth. But he would not suffer them to slay the brothers, as some desired, for the spilling of kindred blood by kin would bind the cures of Mandos more closely upon them all. Yet neither bread nor rest would he grant to Celegorm and Curufin within his realm, and he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.

'Let it be so!' said Celegorm, and there was a light of menace in his eyes; but Curufin smiled. Ten they took horse and rode away like fire, to find if they might their kindred in the east. But none would go with them, not even those that were of their own people; for all perceived that the curse lay heavily upon the brothers, and that evil followed them. In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond; yet Huan followed still the horse of Celegorm his master.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes but there was never only one versionof accounts in tolkien's works, was there? i am sure there is one version somehwere (UT?) that states that celebrimbor came from gondolin (greatest smith of gondolin, IIRC), but even if he didn't he might have had weaponry etc from the hidden city :)

[Gordis]

Bravo, Last Child!

I checked the UT and found that you were right- there was an earlier version!

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Fëanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings (in the revised edition only), and more fully detailed in The Silmarillion (pp. 176,276), where he is said to have been the son of Curufin, the fifth son of Fëanor, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth.] UT - Galadriel and Celeborn

[Gordis]

I wonder where the survivors of Gondolin might have ended up in the Second and the Thitd Age.

Glorfindel made it to Imladris, but he was atypical, as he passed via Mandos.

Is it said anywhere where was Erestor from? Or Gildor?

I think, given the Mirdain's love for crafts, some elves from Gondolin may have settled in Eregion, and as the survivors of Eregon were rescued by Elrond, they naturally came to live in Imladris.

So one of them may have been slain later on (TA 1356-1400 or 1974-75?) in Rhudaur...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

IIRC correctly Gildor was from Nargothrond, or somewhere else where Finarfin's children settled but I'll get a quote in a bit.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i expect most of those that remained in ME after Beleriand was sunk ended up either with Cirdan & Gil-Galad at the Havens, or with Celebrimbor in Eregion, and so eventually ending up with Galadriel in Lorien, Elrond in Imladris or with Cirdan at the Havens

[Galin]

Wayfarer, The Fall of Gondolin was published during Tolkiens life time! It is the only version we have of that battle. All what we later get are very short summaries and even the newest of that is totally outdated. So if you like to have any details you have to take them out of that version.

(...)

It is clear that you can restrict your view on the matters of Middle-Earth so that The Fall of Gondolin is not included (but since it was acctually published, it is not so easy as it seems to rule it out), but than you should stop answering any questions about it, since what you will know about it is only that there was a city named Gondolin and that it was destroyed by Dragons and Orks.

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when ;)

But I don't recall that any version of The Fall of Gondolin was published in Tolkien's lifetime...

... in the spring of 1920 JRRT read a version of the tale to an Essay Club ( Exeter college), but for myself I don't consider that equivalent to publication -- not that Findegil does necessarily, but I can't find any reference to this version, or any other, being published while Tolkien was alive.

Anyone?

[john21wall]

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

[Valandil]

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when ;)
:
:
:

Uncharacteristic of us - especially at that time, when we had a lot of very astute and informed Tolkien fans regularly on the board and happy to speak (write) their minds.

Welcome to Entmoot - john21wall! :)

[Valandil]

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

[Galin]

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

This idea seems to get posted on the web now and then, but as far as I recall Tolkien didn't write that Elves never re-used a name, and in The Lord of the Rings itself we appear to have two Elves named Rúmil, for instance.

Tolkien wrote -- and only in the very late text in which he considered the case of Glorfindel -- that the name Glorfindel itself should not be repeated... but that said, to my mind his reasoning in this text (again, which was written very late and never published by the author in any case, which I think means that he should feel no great pressure to stand by it) doesn't seem all that compelling to me. Anyway, even if we accept JRRT's reasoning there, generally speaking Elves can have the same name. In the same late text JRRT notes an example that could be repeated, Galdor, and in my opinion the The Shibboleth of Feanor seems to suggest that a number of Elves named their children Argon, in honour of Arakano.

Earlier (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien noted that certain Elves tried to keep the specific type of name known as the "Chosen-name" (which is suggested to represent a Noldorin custom) unique, but that as time went on, even the Chosen-name could be repeated [note: Christopher Tolkien wondered if this type of Chosen-name, chosen by Elf-children after their lámatyáve had kicked in, was retained in later years, as the admittedly more brief discussion of Elven-naming in The Shibboleth of Feanor does not mention it].

Again that was only one kind of name in any event.

As a side note: even earlier than the publication of The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien explained what his father had decided about Glorfindel, although yes, the actual Glorfindel essays (one of them is incomplete) were not published until HME 12...

... or The Peoples of Middle-Earth :)

Edit: interestingly, according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario.

[Alcuin]

...according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario.They were twins. It is as if she did not care for the difference between them; but later one was killed by his father.

Back to the original thesis of the thread: Surely the swords were taken as loot by Morgoth’s army after the Fall of Gondolin. Then, as Elrond surmised, the original hoard of loot was looted by others, perhaps several times, until their journey ended in the trolls’ cave. In which case (to paraphrase Gandalf) some other power was at work, and Gandalf was meant to have Glamdring.

I’ve also thought that Glamdring and Orcrist were a matched pair: Wealthy princes in our real world sometimes had two swords made together, so that if his first broke, the prince would have another, identical sword immediately at hand to replace it. I think that perhaps Aranrúth and Narsil might be swords of the same sort: a pair made by Telchar for Thingol. Narsil would then have been an appropriate gift by Tar-Elendil to his grandson Valandil of Andúnië; besides had the law Tar-Aldarion put in place to pass the throne to Tar-Telperion been enacted in Silmariën’s day, Valandil, not Aldarion, would have been King of Númenor.

[Galin]

They were twins. It is as if she did not care for the difference between them; but later one was killed by his father.

True, but I add this example as: often enough I bump into the idea that Tolkien's Elves cannot have the same name, but even here (with the brothers Ambarussa) Tolkien mentions nothing about some sort of broken rule with respect to naming. And as I say, even if this scenario is considered unique, I'm not aware of any text that sweepingly or generally states that Elves cannot have the same name.

With respect to Glorfindel: if the Elf of Imladris had been named after the Elf of Gondolin, we would have to consider some things, the most important (in my opinion) being that Tolkien had just about stated (as he himself realized) that Glorfindel of Imladris was an Elf from Aman (an Elf-lord from beyond the Sea).

I suppose one could get around the issue of hair colour, as "names become names" and a person having a name that means "gold tressed" doesn't necessarily have to have golden hair (however expected in Tolkien's world)... and that said, Glorfindel of Imladris had golden hair anyway.

Tolkien had also published the general idea that the Eldar were dark-haired except for the House of Finarfin, though in my opinion this can be a fairly general "truth" concerning the Eldar, allowing exceptions outside of Finarfin's House as long as the general principle remains true (see also the author-published definition of Eldar in Appendix F).

Anyway I don't want to get sidetracked about hair... or do I? :)

But any-anyway, Tolkien decided that there should not be two Elves named Glorfindel, which of course is not the same as deciding that other names cannot be repeated among Elves.

Not that anyone said otherwise, specifically!

[Galin]

By the way, for the thread in general, I want to stress the if in if above... in other words, I'm aware that JRRT decided that there was only one Glorfindel.

:)