The Silmarillion Ch 12: Of Men

[Fat middle]

This is a very short chapter. It’s like a stop in the story: it doesn’t narrate too much things, but the general tone is very poetical so lots of ideas are suggested in it. I’ll proceed by quoting paragraphs and commenting what I have thought about, and sometimes proposing questions for debating. Any corrections, additions or oppositions will be very, very welcomed. :)

Readings:
- The Silmarillion. XII Of Men.
- BOLT? (I haven’t read those two)
- Quenta Silmarillion (HOME, 5): it has slight differences with the final text that may result interesting.
- Later Quenta Silmallion (HOME, 11): I don’t think this add anything at all.
- Myths Transformed (HOME, 10) : I haven’t commented anything about it, but the cosmic change that JRRT had in mind at this point would altered the date of the awakening of Men, and other things as the relation between the Sun and the Men.

The Sun, the Chicken and the Egg.
From this time forth were reckoned the Years of the Sun. Swifter and briefer are they than the long Years of the Trees in Valinor. In that time the air of Middle-earth became heavy with the breath of growth and mortality, and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly; life teemed upon the soil and in the waters in the Second Spring of Arda, and the Eldar increased, and beneath the new Sun Beleriand grew green and fair.
Beautiful introduction, doesn’t it? It’s curious how with the Sun come both “the breath of growth� and “mortality�. It makes me the impression of a sudden acceleration of things that runs out of control. When the Valar came out of their blessed refuge they’d find that things had changed a lot.

Also this poetical paragraph have made me noticed that Men share their mortality (I’m not speaking of their Doom ) with the nature: animals and plants, with all the creatures that waked up and grew with the Sun; while Elves share their immortality (or long, long life but confined to this world ;)) with the stars, they are the People of the Stars.
At the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Ilúvatar awoke in the land of Hildórien in the eastward regions of Middle-earth; but the first Sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned towards it, and their feet as they wandered over the Earth for the most part strayed that way.
As elves followed the light of Valinor in their marching to the West, Men follow the light of the Sun. We have always this “westward spun� mythology. We have already discussed this in previous chapters, but I think that here we can find again the light as a metaphor of wisdom or blessedness.

But, what was before, the myth or the metaphor? On the one hand, the metaphor of the light is quite unoriginal, and its relation with the travelling of the Sun could be a good basis to build a mythology, since many myths have been related to the attraction that Men have to the Sun.

In the other hand, the original will of Tolkien of building a British mythology and the nuclear importance of his dream about the ship riding the great waves from the west may be two points to argue the primacy of the myth.

Anyway, perhaps those ideas has little to do with this chapter and may result quite obscure and unimportant, but I’ve given some thought to them and wanted to throw it somewhere :p

Another thing I’ve noticed is that it’s only in this chapter where we are spoken about this “tradition� that makes Men wander following the course of the Sun. In other chapters we’re told that the Dark Elves spoke to the Atani about the Light in the West and so they began their wandering trying to escape from the Shadow. This is the tradition that we find in the chapter about The Coming of Men into the West and in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Why two different traditions? The first one (the Sun) shows the Atani as a new beginning in Arda (the second theme of the Music), a new people with a new destiny. The second one (the Light of the Valar) would present Men as “guests� in a world made for the Elves (words of Andreth): the seek a Light as Elves, but no Valar have come to guide them, nobody has invited them to follow, and in the end they’ll discover that they cannot reach that Light. They are fooled by his Doom. Any comments?

(1/3)

[Fat middle]

Meeting other Peoples... or wanting to!
The Atani they were named by the Eldar, the Second People
An obvious reference to Adam, the first of men. A philologist’s joke perhaps, or one important point of that philological background that Tolkien said it was behind the story.
The Atani they were named by the Eldar, the Second People; but they called them also Hildor, the Followers, and many other names: Apanónar, the After-born, Engwar, the Sickly, and FÃ*rimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun.
Hey, stop calling us names :mad: sorry, bad joke :p I’m particularly intrigued by “the Self-cursed�. Any thoughts?
To Hildórien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world. Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them aiding the counsel and will of Manwë; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not skill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the Elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages.
At the beginning of the chapter we’re told that
The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace [feasting, according to QS :p]; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor.
And from the Quenta Silmarillion (HOME 5) we can read this version:
and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world.
The Valar are the Powers of the World. I tend to see them as personifications of physical powers (as the first Greek myths). Could this fear be related with the weakness of the human body and with his fear to death? It may also be due to Melkor’s influence, but it is not clearly suggested here. Any thoughts? Why do men “naturally� feared the Valar?
Yet it is told that ere long they met Dark Elves in many places, and were befriended by them; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk(...)
Michael Martinez suggests in Parma Endorion that Men could learn elements of the tongues of that people that passed to human languages, and also they could learn how to play simple musical instruments such as harps and flutes. I don’t know where did he get that idea. Has anybody heard that before?
There was little peril in the lands and hills; and there new things, devised long ages before in the thought of Yavanna and sown as seed in the dark, came at last to their budding and their bloom. West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green.
I love it when the Professor turns lyrical :) Reading this paragraph I’ve realized that in this moment the Ents wake up too. I’ve always thought that they were older than men, but it seems that we waked up together.
But the dawn is brief and the day full often belies its promise.
I love that quote too :) From this point on Tolkien seems to be going forward and rearward in the story, and much of what it is said could be commented later, so I’m only pointing one topic though it may be developed in further chapters: the Doom of Men.

(2/3)

[Fat middle]

The Doom of Men.
But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
The obliged reading here is of course the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. I’m quite tired now, so I only want to put one comment and one desire.

The comment: Here and in Andreth’s words in the Athrabeth we see that Valar doesn’t seem much concerned with men. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien says something about the estrangement and resentment that Men felt towards the Valar passing to the traditions on the Silmarillion in Númenor. But, actually, should Men feel any “religious link� towards the Valar as the Eldar seem to have?

The desire: that the Athrabeth may not be a pretext for SGH to turn this thread into another Finrod’s thread :p

(3/3)

[Sister Golden Hair]

The desire: that the Athrabeth may not be a pretext for SGH to turn this thread into another Finrod’s thread Beautiful introduction, until the end, Mr. Smart Guy.:p :DMichael Martinez suggests in Parma Endorion that Men could learn elements of the tongues of that people that passed to human languages, and also they could learn how to play simple musical instruments such as harps and flutes. I don’t know where did he get that idea. Has anybody heard that before?I would think that Michael Martinez may have drawn his conclusion, if that be what it is, from the remarks of Tolkien in the chapter of: "The Coming Of Men Into The West" In the very beginning of this chapter, it says that, when Finrod went into the camp and sat beside the dying fire, he picked up a rude harp, which Beor had layed aside. The term rude, implies: of premitive making, or simple.

According to that chapter, Men had only known the Dark Elves in the wild lands. Since all the languages of the Quendi were of one origin, and Men learned the language of the Dark Elves, then the language of Beor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue.

[Artanis]

All these chapter intros are so great, and this one is no exception. Go Gordy! :)
Originally posted by Fat middle
Also this poetical paragraph have made me noticed that Men share their mortality (I’m not speaking of their Doom ) with the nature: animals and plants, with all the creatures that waked up and grew with the Sun; while Elves share their immortality (or long, long life but confined to this world ;)) with the stars, they are the People of the Stars.Can you really separate the Doom of Men and their mortality? Or the fate of the Elves and their immortality?

Another thing I’ve noticed is that it’s only in this chapter where we are spoken about this “tradition� that makes Men wander following the course of the Sun. In other chapters we’re told that the Dark Elves spoke to the Atani about the Light in the West and so they began their wandering trying to escape from the Shadow. This is the tradition that we find in the chapter about The Coming of Men into the West and in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Why two different traditions? The first one (the Sun) shows the Atani as a new beginning in Arda (the second theme of the Music), a new people with a new destiny. The second one (the Light of the Valar) would present Men as “guests� in a world made for the Elves (words of Andreth): the seek a Light as Elves, but no Valar have come to guide them, nobody has invited them to follow, and in the end they’ll discover that they cannot reach that Light. They are fooled by his Doom. Any comments? The Athrabeth is by CRT presented as JRRT's exploration of the nature of the Marring of Men, and the relation between Men and Elves. Since JRRT continuously worked his myths through his life it is not to wonder that more than one version has found its way into the Sil, and should be found in HoME.

From another point of view I think it is natural to have several traditions among Men about their early history and their purpose. It is not easy to maintain the myths consistent with each other, when people are spread widely and stories are told through many generations. It should not be like the Elves, who will have among themselves living memories of the Valar and other things that were long ages ago.

I do not think that Men are fooled by the Doom. They cannot reach the Light in Valinor, that's true, but they may reach another Light after death, when they leave the world and presumably go to stay with Iluvatar. Therefore, as Finrod says, they're the greater people of the Children. When Men think otherwise, it is because they, and all of Middle Earth, is influenced by Morgoth. I think Andreth is to some extent fooled by her bitterness and sorrow. She lacks Estel (Finrod again :) ).

I've got more to say - but later :)

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I would think that Michael Martinez may have drawn his conclusion, if that be what it is, from the remarks of Tolkien in the chapter of: "The Coming Of Men Into The West" In the very beginning of this chapter, it says that, when Finrod went into the camp and sat beside the dying fire, he picked up a [b]rude harp, which Beor had layed aside. The term rude, implies: of premitive making, or simple.

You're possibly right there SGH, and if what MM says it's true it would add a higher worth to the music of your beloved Felagund since Men would already heard some elvish music before. ;)

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
Can you really separate the Doom of Men and their mortality? Or the fate of the Elves and their immortality? I see no problem in it. The Doom includes whatever happen to them after death (be it that they go to Mandos or that they escape from Arda or whatever), but mortality is just the end of this life and that's the same for Men and for animals and plants.

The Athrabeth is by CRT presented as JRRT's exploration of the nature of the Marring of Men, and the relation between Men and Elves. Since JRRT continuously worked his myths through his life it is not to wonder that more than one version has found its way into the Sil, and should be found in HoME.

Very true. Perhaps I should have clarified my point of view. When I analyze ME stories I like to stick to the idea that Tolkien is a mere transcriber. I think that's how he wanted us to read them. Therefore I try to search for other reasons to the existence of different traditions (wherever the only explanation is what you've said, it should be marked as a fault of the final version).

From another point of view I think it is natural to have several traditions among Men about their early history and their purpose. It is not easy to maintain the myths consistent with each other, when people are spread widely and stories are told through many generations. It should not be like the Elves, who will have among themselves living memories of the Valar and other things that were long ages ago.

Right! this is the kind of explanation I was looking for. So you're saying that the difference must be due to men's hand.

I do not think that Men are fooled by the Doom. They cannot reach the Light in Valinor, that's true, but they may reach another Light after death, when they leave the world and presumably go to stay with Iluvatar. Therefore, as Finrod says, they're the greater people of the Children. When Men think otherwise, it is because they, and all of Middle Earth, is influenced by Morgoth. I think Andreth is to some extent fooled by her bitterness and sorrow. She lacks Estel (Finrod again :) ).

True again. But my point here was that one of the two traditions was forged by men that believed that they were fooled by their Doom. Possibly the "wise men" that Andreth mentions.

I've got more to say - but later :)

And it'd be very welcomed :)

[Rían]

Athrabeth? Did someone say Athrabeth?

*gets misty-eyed*

"North away ....."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Hey, stop calling us names sorry, bad joke I’m particularly intrigued by “the Self-cursed�. Any thoughts?Those names do tell about rather mixed feeling towards Men, don't they. Usurpers, Strangers, Inscrutable. I wonder who of the Atani the Eldar had in mind when they found each of the names, and who of the Eldar named them. I can see no sensible reason why Men should be called Self-cursed, especially not by the Ñoldor!
The Valar are the Powers of the World. I tend to see them as personifications of physical powers (as the first Greek myths). Could this fear be related with the weakness of the human body and with his fear to death? It may also be due to Melkor’s influence, but it is not clearly suggested here. Any thoughts? Why do men “naturally� feared the Valar?I think it is natural to fear that what you do not understand in a harsh world. Eldar and Atani are all Iluvatar's Children, still the Eldar yet have more in common with the Valar, they're 'spiritual', immortal and bound to Arda, but even they were frightened by their first meeting with the Powers, due to Melkor's deeds. The Atani were radically different. What Melkor did to the Atani was merely to enhance their original fear. It is interesting to see that the fear and wonder also goes the other way: Melkor has always feared Men, and the Valar are not sure how to deal with them, the exceptions being Ulmo and Manwe perhaps, who were the two Valar with most knowledge of the Great Music and Iluvatar's mind.

This passage from the Athrabeth, where Finrod speaks to Andreth about the Valar, comes into mind:
'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Also this poetical paragraph have made me noticed that Men share their mortality (I’m not speaking of their Doom ) with the nature: animals and plants, with all the creatures that waked up and grew with the Sun; while Elves share their immortality (or long, long life but confined to this world ;)) with the stars, they are the People of the Stars. That's a good point, FM - I hadn't thought of that.

[Rían]

Yes, the "self-cursed" in the list of names of Men is pretty harsh...

I can think of 2 reasons why - one is of course the part in Athrabeth about their choice to listen to the Second Voice - this was a choice they made themselves, so they are self-cursed, but how would the Eldar know this?

Perhaps it's just a reference to how Men are less bound by fate than the Elves, and seem to be all too often rather good at making bad choices :(

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
This passage from the Athrabeth, where Finrod speaks to Andreth about the Valar, comes into mind: ...
Yes, that's a very interesting quote, isn't it? Those that seem weakest are actually mightiest. And originally, humans were thought to have had unlimited lifespans, or at least much, much longer than their current ones, and there is bitterness over the loss.

I remember reading something interesting once about how so much of the human brain seems to be unused. It was theorized that in our unfallen, pre-sin state the entire capacity of the brain was used - Adam and Eve were really incredibly mighty beings, IOW. But after the fall, God, in His mercy, greatly limited our brain power to limit the damage we could do and the suffering we could inflict on others. An interesting thought - for after all, an intelligent grown-up can inflict much more suffering and damage on those around him/her than a very young child. Of course we also lost a large capacity for developing good and helpful things, but these would have been far overshadowed by the bad things we could have done. So I think that Iluvatar made the shorter lifespans Andreth talks about for merciful reasons, not for "I'll show THEM!" reasons.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Of course we also lost a large capacity for developing good and helpful things, but these would have been far overshadowed by the bad things we could have done.I think that's a depressing view on mankind, which I do not agree with. I have more faith in people's ability to do good. But that discussion belongs to another thread, perhaps.
So I think that Iluvatar made the shorter lifespans Andreth talks about for merciful reasons, not for "I'll show THEM!" reasons. Are you saying that Iluvatar did this as a deliberate action, after the Fall of Men? Or is it rather in Men's nature to get shorter lives when they turn to the dark forces and away from the light? Isn't this also what happened to the Numenoreans?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
I see no problem in it. The Doom includes whatever happen to them after death (be it that they go to Mandos or that they escape from Arda or whatever), but mortality is just the end of this life and that's the same for Men and for animals and plants.It's just that I've always seen them as closely tied together, because of this from the published Sil: But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; .... It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think that's a depressing view on mankind, which I do not agree with. I have more faith in people's ability to do good. But that discussion belongs to another thread, perhaps. Yes, there is much good in many people, but it's always easier to destroy than to build, and a few really bad people can cause a lot more harm than many good people could easily fix. That's more what I mean. And ME is a great example of this.

Are you saying that Iluvatar did this as a deliberate action, after the Fall of Men? Or is it rather in Men's nature to get shorter lives when they turn to the dark forces and away from the light? Isn't this also what happened to the Numenoreans? I think that it is very possible that Iluvatar did this deliberately, and for merciful reasons. I would agree with Finrod when he said "None could have done this [change the doom of Men] save the One."

I think that also Men will have shorter lives when they turn to the dark forces, like what we see in the Numenoreans, but the main change came about by a special action of Iluvatar.

I think Finrod is probably right - "...could the Morgoth do this? No, I say."

[Sister Golden Hair]

Does it not say that because Men listened to the wrong voice, that Iluvatar decided that he would bring them to the Timeless Halls, so they would know who he was?

[Rían]

I don't remember that; I'll have to look it up.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I don't remember that; I'll have to look it up. From Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, The Tale of Adanel, The Histories of Middle-earth series, Volume 10 The first voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night it spoke, saying: "Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him."

[Rían]

Whew! That's pretty clear, then, that Iluvatar shortened the life of men!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Whew! That's pretty clear, then, that Iluvatar shortened the life of men! Of course how much of it is just a tale spun by Men to explain their mortality. Andreth says that they do not remember when there was not death. Beor tells Finrod a similiar account as well, in the Silmarillion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Of course how much of it is just a tale spun by Men to explain their mortality. Mostly, I would wager, with the only truth in it being Morgoths domination over most men.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Of course how much of it is just a tale spun by Men to explain their mortality. Andreth says that they do not remember when there was not death. Beor tells Finrod a similiar account as well, in the Silmarillion. Agree with Lefty. I do not trust Andreth when she tells this story. To me it seems like a story made up by Men to fit their fear of death, or maybe partly suggested to them by Morgoth himself. I do not think that Iluvatar shortened their lifespan as a special action. It wasn't Morgoth either, I agree with Finrod when he doesn't believe that Morgoth had the power to do such a thing (even if Tolkien explored the possibility). From the very beginning Iluvatar made Men's nature in such a way that they would have longer lifespans if they followed the light, and shorter lifespans if they did the opposite, imo.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree as well. As a matteroffact, I read in the notes of the Athrabeth where CT points out that Finrod's view is the most likely, because had Men been made immortal, they would not have been Men, they would have been Elves. There would have then been no great differences in fate or nature of the two races, which IMO would have made for a rather boring story.:)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
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There was little peril in the lands and hills; and there new things, devised long ages before in the thought of Yavanna and sown as seed in the dark, came at last to their budding and their bloom. West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green.
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I love it when the Professor turns lyrical :) Reading this paragraph I’ve realized that in this moment the Ents wake up too. I’ve always thought that they were older than men, but it seems that we waked up together.

It's indeed a very pretty quote. :) I never thought about Ents and Men waking up together. Though I don't think they actually met at that time. I have this memory of Treebeard telling how the Elves taught the Ents to speak when they awoke. It would seem the Ents met the Elves before they met Men.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Those that seem weakest are actually mightiest.

To find strength in weakness fits IMO very well with how Iluvatar would ultimately turn evil deeds into good things. To find this sort of thoughts in Tolkien's writing proves to me he's still the greatest and unbeaten. :)

[Wayfarer]

I’m particularly intrigued by “the Self-cursed�. Any thoughts? Perhaps the usage of the word 'Cursed' is not what you might at first have thought?

Think about it: it was men that feared and hated death, so perhaps "Curse my Mortality! Curse me for being mortal!" is the implication. Hmmm?

Michael Martinez suggests in Parma Endorion that Men could learn elements of the tongues of that people that passed to human languages, and also they could learn how to play simple musical instruments such as harps and flutes. I don’t know where did he get that idea. Has anybody heard that before?

I would presume that men could learn any skills of Tongue and Music that the elves were willing to to teach, although they wouldn't have been as adept. After all, the elves themselves borrowed from the Valarin tongue.

Here and in Andreth’s words in the Athrabeth we see that Valar doesn’t seem much concerned with men. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien says something about the estrangement and resentment that Men felt towards the Valar passing to the traditions on the Silmarillion in Númenor. But, actually, should Men feel any “religious link� towards the Valar as the Eldar seem to have?

The Valar had foolishly withdrawn from Middle Earth and hidden away, and chosen to let Melkor do as he would. I don't see any special reason why Men should revere them.

Very true. Perhaps I should have clarified my point of view. When I analyze ME stories I like to stick to the idea that Tolkien is a mere transcriber. I think that's how he wanted us to read them. Therefore I try to search for other reasons to the existence of different traditions (wherever the only explanation is what you've said, it should be marked as a fault of the final version).

That's a very good road to take, however, there are a number of places where it can't be used, and the final version should NOT be disregarded. The version that should be taken is the version that takes the least amount of work to make fit with the story. IMHO

An evident example is that tolkien originally envisioned the Balrogs as armored cavalry numbering in the tens of thousands. That's obviously not what we see in the LOTR, which is the 'final version' on the subject.

An interesting thought - for after all, an intelligent grown-up can inflict much more suffering and damage on those around him/her than a very young child. Right- It's Dr. Lector that is really scary, not the stupid murderer who gets caught right away.

I do not think that Iluvatar shortened their lifespan as a special action. It wasn't Morgoth either, I agree with Finrod when he doesn't believe that Morgoth had the power to do such a thing (even if Tolkien explored the possibility). From the very beginning Iluvatar made Men's nature in such a way that they would have longer lifespans if they followed the light, and shorter lifespans if they did the opposite, imo. So goodness is like... Nutrition? Or proper medical care? It would make sense that people who lived as they were created to live would live longer (less undue wear and tear!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
So goodness is like... Nutrition? Or proper medical care?Not goodness, but light, faith in Iluvatar and freedom from the fear of death.

[Wayfarer]

Hmm... I always got the impression that the two were interchangeable. It's the good numenoreans that follow the light and are willing to die. It's the bad ones that are afraid of death.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Eärniel

To find strength in weakness fits IMO very well with how Iluvatar would ultimately turn evil deeds into good things. To find this sort of thoughts in Tolkien's writing proves to me he's still the greatest and unbeaten. :) This is also one of the themes of LotR: the mighty of the Earth are helpless before the power of Sauron and the Ring, and the little Hobbits destroy both. Of course, this has a Scriptural basis: "The last shall be first."