What do you think of the Dwarves?

[Durin1]

The Dwarves don't seem to have figured too much in Tolkien's grand plan. A reason for the apparent lack of interest generated by fans is that there are not enough stories in which they figure prominantly.

To top it all off, Dwarves in modern day folklore are deemed to be devious and evil (as well as slightly laughable and stupid according to Peter Jackson's appalling and disgraceful way he had potrayed Gimli in the movies). Obviously Tolkien would have had a heart attack if his noble, valiant race of Dwarves were portrayed in such a negative way.

The fact that Tolkien viewed the Dwarves as being very ancient and possessing some sort of "sub-creative" power (demonstrated by the Dragon-helm, for instance) is a plus point for them. I think people tend to get put off by the way they are contrasted unfavourably with the "beautiful" Elven race (not excluding the afore-mentioned stereotypical images of them).

Does anyone else share the same sentiments?

[Ñólendil]

I know what you mean, but I don't think Dwarves are given the short stick. I don't think they could have logically been given more of a part, given the main plot of the legendarium. The entire story revolves around the Three Jewels, and the One Ring, and both have much to do with Elves, and less to do with Dwarves. The Dwarves probably had their own epics, but Tolkien didn't have time to write them. I sometimes wonder if Durin the Deathless lived a peaceful life, or if he had grand adventures in his youth. He certainly traveled far, and "named the nameless hills and dells, and drank from yet untasted wells".

I think Tolkien was also being slightly true to the Dwarrows of mythology. They are important people in Norse mythology, but not as important as the gods, the giants, or the Men. They are also particularly unlovely, having been the maggots in the primordial giant Ymir's skin.

[RohirrimGuy]

I'm sure he could have written a Dwarvarillion but he didn't. They didn't play a huge part in the Tolkien works. They seem usually to be greedy, with the exception of some.

And, maybe Tolkien meant it to look that way because Aule was not supposed to create them in the first place.

[Laurelindórenan]

Originally posted by Durin1
The Dwarves don't seem to have figured too much in Tolkien's grand plan. But then again, if you think about it, they weren't in Iluvatar's grand plan either. I think in that respect dwarves would always last thought of since they would last in coming (and un-looked for). If that makes any sense?

But I do agree it would be good to hear more tales of the dwarves. The only story I can think of where they had a bigger role than elves is in the Hobbit. Then again, I've never read unfinished tales or any of those Tolkien memoir books so I don't know if there are any good stories in them.

[Attalus]

To me, the best tales of the Dwarves are in the Appendix: the image of the Dwarves bent over as they carried the armor of their dead as they left the battleground has always stuck in my memory, and the cry, "If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it." rings in my mind. I would have loved to have an account of how Galadriel "passed through Moria" on her way to Lothlorien, thus avoiding the Redhorn Gate of evil memory. How did they greet her? Were there feasts in her honor? How was she escorted? I smiled when I learned that a Dwarven army out of Moria attacked Sauron's rear, and that he bore the Dwarves especial emnity for this. The world was fair in Durin's day!

[RohirrimGuy]

Very very much so!

[Lizra]

Why was the future so dim for the dwarves, in the fourth age? (or was it? :confused: ) Why weren't they adapting, prospering and reproducing well? It would seem dwarves had plenty of "mannish" qualities to allow them to adapt and prosper, unlike elves? I've always wondered why dwarves get written out, like some kind of puny race, yet they are always described as hardy individuals.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Lizra
Why was the future so dim for the dwarves, in the fourth age? (or was it? :confused:) Why weren't they adapting, prospering and reproducing well? It would seem dwarves had plenty of "mannish" qualities to allow them to adapt and prosper, unlike elves? I've always wonderied why dwarves get written out, like some kind of puny race, yet they are always described as hardy individuals.

Well from what Gimli says it just seems they dont have much to do. They have pretty much hollowed out everymountain and found ever tresure! Plus you have to rember the War with the Orcs which they mad in the late 3rd pretty much devisated there population in some ways i think the story of the downfall of the Dwaves represents the way he felt most about what happened to Britian after the world war allthough he claims to hate alegory it is plain how his experiences effected his life! A grand nation allmost completally wiped out in a single war loseing most of its lands and it empire.

Why they didnt reproduce much is probably due to the fact Dwaf women were one in 3 or summet and quite simply a lot of them just were not too fussed about reproducing been more intrested in there works and i think when there works were finished they just probably had nothing left to live for

[Lizra]

Ha! They need to sail to the new world for more gold! If only a few dwarves had been sailors!

[Attalus]

The world of LotR is flat; there is no New World.;)

[Sween]

Originally posted by Attalus
The world of LotR is flat; there is no New World.;)

i would beg to differ

[Eärloth]

Originally posted by Sween
i would beg to differ

Yahuh the world was flat but then it was made round towards the end of the Second Age - that was the drowning of Númenor - or was it Númenór? Or was it only Númenór when talking about the inhabitants (Númenóreans)? Eh, can't remember.

And yeah, there was a story of the Dwarves in one of the Appendixes of LotR, although it doesn't relate to the Silmarillion: I can't remember it in full detail but the orcs overtook Khazad-dûm, the Dwarves fought back against them, oh so many were slaughtered, Dwarves were victorious (if you could call it victory despite how many they lost) and they reclaimed Khazad-dûm...? That's where the quote 'If this is victory, our hands are too small to hold it' comes from. Thorin Oakenshield fought in that battle...he took a branch from an oak and used it as a shield to fight against the orcs, that's where he got his name from; and his sister, DÃ*s, is the only female dwarf ever to enter the tales of Middle-earth, or so I read in the Appendix.

Also, there was that nasty bit of business with the Naugrimir - was that what it was called? I don't have my book with me :confused: Also in brief:

1. Dwarves made necklace & gave it to Finrod, an elf.
2. Finrod was killed & Nargothrond plundered.
3. Túrin took the necklace and gave it to Thingol.
4. Thingol received a Silmaril and bade his Dwarven-smiths join the two works.
5. The Dwarven-smiths refused to give it back to Thingol & killed him, then fled from Doriath.
6. Angry elves tracked Dwarves & killed all but 2, who returned to their kin and reported that the Elves had stolen the necklace unjustly and had killed the other Dwarves in cold blood.
7. Dwarves take armies & slaughter the inhabitants of Doriath & seize the necklace.
8. Beren takes his own army & kills the remnants of those Dwarves who killed the others in Doriath.

Very sad story, wouldn't you say?

[Durin1]

I think it is a shame that in all the 10,000 years or so (more if you count the age "under the stars"), there are only a few tales where, apparently, Dwarves play any significant part in ME. I know that they tended to mind their own affairs and were secretive, but come on, they can't have been THAT secretive!

We all know that Tolkien's world was primarily interested in the history of the Elves, but just imagine Khazad-dum in its heyday and their friendship with the Noldor of Eregion. And imagine the Dwarven host coming to the rescue of the beleagured Elves led by Elrond after the destruction of Eregion, without which (we are told) they would have been utterly destroyed.

[RohirrimGuy]

Yeah, that really would have been something to see!


I don't know. Maybe they did do some things, (which they did, Khazad-dum, Lonely Mountain) maybe Tolkien chose to glorify them through their buildings.

[Sween]

Originally posted by RohirrimGuy
Yeah, that really would have been something to see!


I don't know. Maybe they did do some things, (which they did, Khazad-dum, Lonely Mountain) maybe Tolkien chose to glorify them through their buildings.

well they are well known as a secreative race they dont even revel there true names and as for details of there wars and what went on it is a bit of a mystery but thats there nature

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Sween
i would beg to differ According to Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien ("Myths Reconsidered") JRRT tried to make his world round but went back to "flat" because it was too difficult.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Attalus
According to Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien ("Myths Reconsidered") JRRT tried to make his world round but went back to "flat" because it was too difficult.

Well acording to what tolkien put into print after the loss of numeor they tried to find it or get into the forgotten west but it is noted that all roads are now bend hence having a round earth. Plus it is also noed that new lands had been made

[Attalus]

Just because the "Straight Road" was lost doesn't mean that JRRT went to a "Round Earth" model. Middle-Earth is just what you see on the maps, period. Hence the flat world.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Attalus
Just because the "Straight Road" was lost doesn't mean that JRRT went to a "Round Earth" model. Middle-Earth is just what you see on the maps, period. Hence the flat world.

Yes but the Earth also apears flat if you look at maps. The world was made round at the end of the second age! especially seeing as JRRT world became our world he did go for a round world

[Durin1]

I can't really see what having a flat or round world has to do with Dwarves, but i'll contribute anyway...

Although there seems to be some misunderstanding as to whether the world was flat or round, it is a matter of "canon" that Tolkien envisaged the world to become round with the aftermath of the destruction of Numenor (upon the instigation of Iluvatar). I don't clearly remember where I read it, but I believe that Tolkien linked the hiding of Valinor through the intrinsic reasoning that the world would become round through his (widely known) dreams of the "ineluctable wave" descending upon Numenor.

[Eärloth]

Originally posted by Durin1
I can't really see what having a flat or round world has to do with Dwarves, but i'll contribute anyway...



Hey yeah. We got sidetracked. World flat/round not important, at least not in this thread. Talk bout Dwarves.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Well from what Gimli says it just seems they dont have much to do. They have pretty much hollowed out everymountain and found ever tresure!"
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If "The Atlas of Middle-Earth, by Karen Wynn Fonstad, is accurate, there is a large-scale map of middle-earth on p. 38-39 showing a large mountain range, the Orocarni (Mts. of the East). After Sauron was vanquished couldn't dwarves have migrated there, and also the Grey Mountains south of Umbar?

[Blackheart]

" Obviously Tolkien would have had a heart attack if his noble, valiant race of Dwarves were portrayed in such a negative way."

/Chuckle

Thorin and Co. were never porteayed in a negative way were they?

And yes, there were evil dwarves, even dwarves that made alliances with the orcs...

But yes, there's plenty about the Naugrim, it's just never put into a history about the dwarves. They always show up in relation to the toher races, primarily because Tolkein took the stance of translating a book written by a hobbit translating a book written by elves.

And as for the Sil, well, they are elvish tales. And the elves themselves admit that they are mostly concerned with themselves. And as someone rightly pointed out, the dwarves are very secretive.

But there's enough info in there for someone to fabricate a dwarven history without embellishing over much. No more than pointing out likely occurances, such as the destruction of Beleriand and the subsequent destruction near Ered Luin and the cities of Gabilgathol (Belegost) and Nogrod being a possible factor in dwarf populations spreading north and west into M.E. at the end of the Second age.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lizra
Why was the future so dim for the dwarves, in the fourth age? (or was it? :confused: ) Why weren't they adapting, prospering and reproducing well? It would seem dwarves had plenty of "mannish" qualities to allow them to adapt and prosper, unlike elves? I've always wondered why dwarves get written out, like some kind of puny race, yet they are always described as hardy individuals. For the same reason as Hobbits and Elves were 'written out': It was Men who were destined to take over the earth.

Though we do not hear much about the Dwarves, they did play a significant role in the First Age. It was the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost who first provided king Thingol with armour and weapons of metal, and the Sindar learned their smithcraft from the Naugrim. If this had not been so, I guess Morgoth would have been victorious in the First Battle.

[Durin1]

Obviously Tolkien was concerned primarily with the world of Elves (in which Men appear but only as peripherals), but my personal feelings (and I know that not every fan is appeased from certain aspects of the mythology) are that Dwarves could have been of more importance.

We are told that they also had "sub-creational" abilities (the dragon-helm, for example), which Men did not. Also, in the essay "Of Dwarves and Men", The Peoples of ME, Tolkien states that they were the most redoubtable warriors of all speaking peoples.

They could have been a factor in all the conflicts had they not been so insular.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Blackheart
"But yes, there's plenty about the Naugrim, it's just never put into a history about the dwarves. They always show up in relation to the to the other races"
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Indeed, there's one curious bit when talking about the dwarves helping Thingol make Menegroth because of Melian's counsel:
He took thought therefore how he should make for himself a kingly dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to wake again in Middle-earth; and he sought aid and counsel of the Dwarves of Belegost. They gave it willingly, for they were unwearied in those days and eager for new works; and though the dwarves ever demanded a price for all they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held themselves paid. For Melian taught them much that they were eager to learn"
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A curious statement about Melian, since she was "a Maia who served both Vana and Este". since Vana was especially concerned with flowers and birds, not particularly dwarvish concerns. What did Melian instruct the dwarves in?

[Blackheart]

"What did Melian instruct the dwarves in?"

Interior decoration...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
What did Melian instruct the dwarves in?

Perhaps she gave them news of Aule. Or advised them to beware of the wiles of Melkor.