Do you think Middle Earth became our earth?

[bmilder]

Do you think Tolkien intended us to assume that during the course of the Fourth Age, Middle Earth slowly became our earth? Since all the magical creatures were leaving, and humans became more populous, it resembled our earth more and more. Who knows, maybe there's some hobbits hiding somewhere today :D.

[Ryan6233]

I'm a hobbit-i'm not hiding

[Darth Tater]

Actually, it is, was, and always will be. That's what the books are aoubt. They're the mythology of England.

[Hernalt]

Verrrry good question. Not rhetorically good because the answer is obvious, but because it's so profound. Tolkien spared no expense in sculpting a picture of this planet in an age a mere 7-10 millenia ago. Once my webtsite gets going, you'll be able to see many of the anchors he planted in secular history which link to his mythology. His Tengwar script predates Latin; his Angerthas script predates Scandinavian Futhark (the name of which Lucas reportedly wants for one of His Star Wars fonts, now that he's giving them the attention they deserve.) At least per fan-art, Teleri Swanships predate Viking Longboats, particularly of the Gokstad class. (I still have to establish causative link between his literary descriptions and the artwork but I'm fairly sure it's largely there.) Tolkien Elves predate European Elves. The True Elves of Europe (http://www.tiac.net/users/dangweth/elfsaga.html) The Fall of Numenor predates the Fall of Atlantis. Akallabêth or Atalantie (http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/sample/lostroad.html) The Tolkien nomenclature "Lord of the Rings" predates the Viking kenning 'Ring-Lord'. (For this you must wait, lads. ;) I examined some aspects of Tolkien music vs. traqditional and contemporary music Grey Havens site. (http://server3.ezboard.com/fofficialtpmbashersboard40038rivendelllordoftherin gs.showMessage?topicID=5.topic) Lastly, I must secure more materials to fully persue a line of thought regarding the true origins of the story behind Walt Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs." Did you know JRR Tolkien and Walt Disney were close friends up to a point?

[bmilder]

Yes, I meant it in the profound sense... really... :) Thanks for seeing through my poorly worded question to give your now standard incredibly long and insightful answer, Hernalt :D.

[Darth Tater]

Hernalt, let me guess. Did the ending of their friendship have anything to do with the fact that Walt Disney doesn't know the meaning of the fraze "stick to the story"?

[Hernalt]

It was enough that Tolkien gave the issue special attention in ROTK, Appendix F, as he discussed the plural of 'Dwarf' being 'Dwarves' or 'Dwarrows': <FONT COLOR=DARKGREEN>"But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh enough among Men to keep ahold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>or at last to nonsense-stories in which they have become mere figures of fun.</FONT> But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed: these are the descendants of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in whose hearts still burns the ancient fire of Aule the Smith, and the embers smoulder of their long grudge against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in works of stone that none have surpassed. (P) It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form Dwarves, <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>and so removed them a little, perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days.</FONT>"</FONT> <HR> Disney's movie script from <A HREF="http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/special/kay/white13.html"><FONT COLOR=BLUE>Snow White Texts:</FONT></A> <FONT COLOR=DARKGREEN>"Why, you're not children," she exclaimed. "You're little men. Let me see if I can guess your names." And she did - Doc and Bashful, Happy, Sleepy, and Sneezy, and last of all Dopey and Grumpy, too. "Supper is not quite ready," said Snow White. "You'll have just time to wash."</FONT> From the same site dedicated to Snow White, (which far predates Disney btw), <A HREF="http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/special/kay/swissues.html"><FONT COLOR=BLUE>Snow White Issues:</FONT></A> In their analysis of the making of the Disney film, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Richard Holliss and Brian Sibley explore the background work that led to the finalization of the film. The text below focuses on the seven dwarfs (often a criticized element in the Disney production) and the use of established artists (often unrecognized) to design this project. <FONT COLOR=DARKGREEN>"The <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>first outline for the Snow White project, probably drafted by Walt himself, was dated August 9, 1934.</FONT> What is particularly interesting about this early record of <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>Walt's approach to the Snow White story is that he had decided from the outset that each of the seven dwarfs should have a distinctively individual screen personality.</FONT> In the version told by the brothers Grimm, and in most subsequent retellings, there was no attempt to give character to the dwarfs. One exception was the English artist John Hassall who, in 1921, illustrated an edition of the story in which the dwarfs are identified by names embroidered on their breeches. Taking his inspiration from the scene in the story where the dwarfs return to their cottage and find someone has been sitting at their table and has taken some of their food and drink, Hassall called the dwarfs Stool, Plate, Bread, Spoon, Fork, Knife and Wine. In <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>Walt's 1934 outline for the film,</FONT> we find this discussion of the dwarfs, which includes five of the seven names used in the completed film: <FONT COLOR=DARKRED>"At the same time, preliminary sketches were being made by, among others, two European illustrators - Gustaf Tenggren, whose delicate water-colour designs influenced the story's rustic Germanic setting, and Albert Hurter, who created the bizarre fixtures and fittings in the dwarfs' cottage - while <FONT COLOR=LAVENDER>writer Joe Grant helped to shape the appearance and personalities of the dwarfs themselves.</FONT> Hurter and Tenggren not only brought to Snow White their own highly individual skills, they gave the film a decorative style reminiscent of the best traditions in European illustration epitomized by such artists as Arthur Rackham, Edmund Dulac and W. Heath Robinson. <FONT COLOR=LAVENDER>Early renditions of the dwarfs depicted them very much as sons of the earth: elderly, hunched and wizened figures;</FONT> Snow White (contrary to the original text which describes her as having "hair black as ebony") was drawn as a blond."</FONT></FONT> Frances Clark Sayers, (1897-1989) was not afraid to take on Walt Disney for his commercial use of children's stories and became the subject of controversy on this topic. In writing about Sayers, Kay Vandergrift questions whether this was an elitist standpoint held by Sayers in opposition to this form of popular culture. Sayers wrote: "Muchness acclaims Mr. Disney. It is a matter which should disturb us greatly, this debasement of the taste of the young. I dream of a time when libraries and reading men and women will fight Muchness and the mass brainwashing to which we are subjected in our time. I hope to walk into a children's room one day where good editions of Pinocchio are on exhibition beneath a sign which asks: "Have you really read Pinocchio, or only Disney's version?" <HR> Do you hear what I'm typing?

[Elrond]

Middle earth is our earth... Same seasons, length of year, stars...There's the hunter whose name escapes me is orion, The sickle is the plough and so on. i think the area of the world was a much-changed Europe. This is perfectly possible, as tolkien says 'before the lands were changed', and europe seems to be about the correct size and climate... That's what I think anyway.

[Darth Tater]

Wow Hernalt!

[anduin]

I knew there was a reason to distrust Disney, the exploiter of children!! >8*<

[Hernalt]

I would love to divulge exactly what connection there was between Disney's 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs' and Tolkiens' Dwarves. The connection was stated in a book I d@mn h*ll can't find in book stores, although the first time I saw it was in Encore, a culture-class bookstore which was a little more eclectic than BDaltons, Walden, MediaPLay. I have yet to check Barnes&Noble, though, and I have high hopes... The book is in modern print, is NOTNOTNOT in Christopher's HOME series to my knowledge, although I only possess the first five, and is essentialy a mythological treatment of Middle-earth with this item taking up about two pages and some footnotes. Anyway, Disney's 'SWAT7D' was what launched his career to meteoric heights.

[anduin]

Good work Hernalt! :D I find all of this very interesting. Do you happen to remember the name of the book? or did you already mention that?

[Hernalt]

But no, I don't know the name of the book, or your sorry @$$es would have been buried under a pile of documentation of the utmost horror to have afflicted our writer Tolkien. Did I mention that after this event, which I can't divulge unless I get that d@mn book, Tolkien wrote his ex-friend Walt Disney out of his will?

[anduin]

Good for him!! He was probably pi$$ed because Walt spelled dwarves wrong.

[Hernalt]

YES that's right! No, wait - not as evil as that. (..Hernalt shudders..)

[Ryan6233]

i uh...got lost in hernalts big post :(

[Celeborn]

walt disney stole tolkiens dwarf design?

[Hernalt]

The essence of the allegation as contained in that &%*&%#ing book is thus: Tolkien wrote a draft about an evil Queen and seven dwarves who lived in Lossnarch, which was southwest Gondor. (She later became Queen Beruthiel of ancient Gondor, with nine cats, and referred to by Aragorn.) What Tolkien had written was his version of the Brothers Grimm tale of 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs', a traditional fairytale which had been set down in narrative in the late 1800's. We know of Tolkien's aptitude in crafting stories which echoed myths we thought we knew the origins of, but which actually hailed the whole way back to Middle-earth. One of the hallmarks of Tolkien's re-mything of the Snow White tale was that unlike the tradition of the Brothers Grimm, he gave the Dwarfs individual personalities and a great many more lines. He lent this draft to his friend Walt Disney and it was never seen again. What was seen was a masterpiece, a novelty of its time - the cartoon "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" which launched Disney's empire. The thing was, it was critically acclaimed as a superior tale to the traditional because of the attention Disney had given to fleshing out the character of the Dwarfs. After the movie came out, Tolkien wrote Disney out of his will. Was Disney's forray into cartoon motion pictures inevitable? Perhaps.................. Now - CAN ANYONE ring a bell with this?!?

[anduin]

Are you asking if the name of that book rings a bell?

[Hernalt]

I don't know of any book name, per se - that's what I'm trying to find out. Namely, does anyone recognize this story/account/allegation, and if so, do they know what book it comes from?

[anduin]

Alas, no. And if you can't find out, I don't think anyone can. I assume you have tried to research the web for the answer?

[Darth Tater]

Wow Hernalt, you certainly have strong feelings about this topic!

[Hernalt]

(Hernalt is suddenly embarrassed that he let Tolkien affect his personal life, and hides his face for shame...)

[anduin]

Shame, embarrassment?!! From where I sit, it seems that Tolkien is inseparatable from your life, not merely affecting it. :) I look forward to your insightful posts on this forum.....and you better keep it up!! ;)

[Elanor]

Yes, Hernalt, we like your info, and who can help but get emotional about our middle earth? Did you mention somewhere that you have a website for this kind of stuff? Just for an obvious answer, at the beginning of the Hobbit, isn't there something about hobbits still existing, but they're small and quiet so we don't notice them? I don't have my books, so I'm probably wrong. shrug. Elanor the golden flower

[Smaug the Worm]

NO.

[Spock1]

Of course you over looked the obvious.....it just might all be real! Ah, Elbereth Githoneil.

[Hernalt]

~ Hernalt and others set a feast to welcome the lost Elves of the Stars ~

[Gimli the Dwarf]

Yeah i do. (look at subject) Theres some charts in one of those books Christopher Tolkien organized(shaping of middle earth) and its really quite obvious. Do you realize that Valinor is America?!

[ArwenUndomiel02]

i guess it could be. but do you realize that the length of these posts proves the fact that we have no life, a fact i am d@mn proud of!

[Elanor]

Yep, Middle Earth became Europe, and Valinor became America. I really shouldn't be telling you this, but I am really Manwe in disguise (we can take different forms, you know). I can't let ordinary mortals know that, so keep it down, okay?

[ranger]

i say we burn everything walt disney created and transform this world into middle earth:D





i am a ranger.... i will fight for right and what i believe( you insult my family, friends hobbies.......i will fight for it even if i will not survive) aragorn (viggo) rocks!