Are goblins orcs?

[Darth Tater]

This is another Hobbit/LOTR discrepancies thread, but I think it deserves it's own thread. The sword used to kill goblins in the Hobbit is called Orcrist, and they seem a lot like orcs. Am I forgetting somewhere where it says they are, or am I completey off?

[Eruve]

Yes, Goblins are Orcs.

[bmilder]

I could be remembering wrong, but I believe that in a preface or introduction to The Hobbit it explains the discrepancy.

[Fat middle]

I think they´re the same, but i´ll try to research text...

[Darth Tater]

Not in my book Ben, can you tell us what it says?

[MD641]

I think Goblins are weaker than Orcs... I know that's how they are in The Two Towers...

[MD641]

The MUD game, not the book.

[Darth Tater]

I was reading my Tolkien Dictionary (I know, it's kinda cheating) and it said that orcs was the general species and that goblins were one kind.

[MD641]

Ah. Goblins and Northern Orcs must be the same, Orcs of Mordor are the big black orcs of Sauron, the Uruk-hai are Saruman's... I see. Good point!

[Michael Martinez]

I'm not sure but I think THE TOLKIEN DICTIONARY is a David Day book, in which case it's about as reliable as a Charles Berlitz book (meaning, not at all). Orcs and Goblins were one and the same. Tolkien uses the names interchangeably in THE HOBBIT and in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. He most often calls them Goblins in THE HOBBIT and most often calls them Orcs in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but the word "goblin" definitely occurs in LOTR and the words "orc" and "orcs" occur in THE HOBBIT. The only special word Tolkien employed was "hobgoblin", which he used in THE HOBBIT to describe the larger, nastier goblins/orcs. Traditionally, a hobgoblin is actually a SMALLER type of goblin, but Tolkien loved to take words and give them new meanings. Many people assume the hobgoblins referred to in THE HOBBIT can be equated with the Uruks of LOTR. The Uruks were big soldier Orcs which first appeared out of Mordor in the 24th century of the Third Age, but they were not the only soldier Orcs. The Uruks spread from Mordor to the Misty Mountains and probably to Mirkwood an other places. "Uruk-hai" is just a name which means "Orc Folk" and doesn't necessarily imply any distinguishable difference between Saruman's Uruks and the other Uruks (except for normal tribal variations which may have developed). However, there is some slight evidence the Uruk-hai might be the Half-orcs of Isengard. Aragorn was not familiar with the dead Uruk-hai at Parth Galen who carried the man-sized bows, and he had almost assuredly fought the Uruks of Minas Morgul during his time in Gondor serving Ecthelion as Thorongil.

[Darth Tater]

Looks like Hernalt's got some compatition! ;)

[Hernalt]

I would never essay to claim the volume of information he has. I must read his essays to see if his passion goes beyond data, however. Tolkien is not study only, (for me) but religious experience. Always beware of knowing too much without your spine being connected to the oversoul of the earth. As it stands, I have the highest respect for Martinez *AND* I will do my homework as time allows. His essay on Who were the real heroes of Middle-earth? (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/28563) looks promising and relevant. And check out his essay list. (http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien/) I'm all about candor, you see.

[Darth Tater]

Come on, you guys have ot challenge each other to a battle of the brains or something! ;)

[anduin]

........I read his article, <a href= http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4786/25112>What can we expect from the upcoming movies?</a> I have had it saved for months.....he does a great job of putting in perspective the task at hand for Jackson. Do your self a favor and check it out :)

[Michael Martinez]

I appreciate the kind remarks, but I'm not here to compete with anyone, and I know far less than I may seem to. I keep the books by my computer so I can usually look up something before posting (or before writing). Sadly, if my participation here goes as elsewhere (even my on White Council), eventually someone will start trying to take me down a notch or two, and blame all flame threads on me, and try to rally the masses behind their allegations and implications, and then I'll probably have to leave (or at least not visit as often). On Xenite.Org we delete such threads, but we cannot prevent them from giving people the wrong impression. I guess time will tell. So far, I like the community here. No one seems interested in taking people down a notch or two. That's good.

[Darth Tater]

As an admin I can tell you that we have had very few problems, all of which have been delt with. Also, none of the Tolkien fans here ever seem to cause problems, so hopefully you won't have a reacurence of your previous experiances. However, if that should happen you'll be happy to know we'll deal with it right away.

[anduin]

My sentiments exactly.....we appreciate any and all intelligent Tolkien posters. Most people here are interested in the different views that can come about from discussing the movies and the books, and if there is a little controvery......all the better IMO....it helps to stimulate the conversation.