"Do not touch the water"

[Shadowfax]

Why did Galadriel warn Sam and Frodo not to touch the water of her mirror when they looked in it? I have always wondered this and I can't seem to find an answer anywhere. What would have happened if they did, especially to Frodo and the Ring?

[Dreran the Green]

They'd get wet:D

[Elf Girl]

We don't know. It's a mystery; but I do know that the Mirror was magic, and in Middle-Earth it is not good to meddle with magic you do not understand.

[Shadowfax]

So it's just one of those unresolved mysteries...no answer. Hmm. Oh well, for me, that just adds to the allure and intrigue of Galadriel and Lothlorien. Thanks.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I believe that the Lorien Elves, and probably Galadriel would disagree on that point, Luhtarian. :) If I remember correctly, they did not consider such things magic, though I could be wrong.

As far as the first question goes, it is quite interesting. Of course, it is never stated, but we can speculate. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons: Firstly, that touching the water would ruin the "power" (see foreword to Silmarillion, if I remember correctly) of the Mirror of Galadriel; Secondly, that touching the water would be physically, mentally, or spiritually harmful to the "toucher", due to the power of the Mirror; Thirdly, that the water was "sacred" in a sense, and something that should not be touched, whether because of any virtue of its own, or because it was used in the Mirror of Galadriel, or that it was somehow "consecrated" (when I say "sacred" and "consecrated", I do not mean in a religious sense, but there aren't better words which my halfwitted word-hoard can come up with to fit), and therefore something which should not be touched. I'm sure that there are other possibilities, but that's all I can think of right now.

[Lalaith]

Yeah, I would say because it is magic water. It doesn't harm Galadriel, but if some normal person touches the water ... who knows what happens.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I believe that the Lorien Elves, and probably Galadriel would disagree on that point, Luhtarian. :) If I remember correctly, they did not consider such things magic, though I could be wrong.
We don't consider them magic, but after posing as an Atan for thirteen years, I know what the Atani would and would not call magic. The Mirror falls under the 'would' category.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem


As far as the first question goes, it is quite interesting. Of course, it is never stated, but we can speculate. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons: Thanks, Gwaimir.

[Lalaith]

Probably it is not magic, but certainly it is not human or hobbitish (however this is called) but elvish.

[Ruinel]

The images didn't come from the water, which comes from an ordinary stream, they came from the basin. Galadriel commanded the images to come forth in the basin. A power that she held because of Nenya.

At the time that Galadriel tells Frodo, softly, "do not touch the water!" Frodo is seeing the Eye as it searches for the Ring. The Eye could not see Frodo unless he willed it so. He began to slip closer to the Mirror. Touching the Mirror would have revealed him to the Eye.

As far as magic, I'm not sure what you mean by this. But I know our Elven ways are strange to the Atani. ;)

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Ruinel
At the time that Galadriel tells Frodo, softly, "do not touch the water!" Frodo is seeing the Eye as it searches for the Ring. The Eye could not see Frodo unless he willed it so. He began to slip closer to the Mirror. Touching the Mirror would have revealed him to the Eye.
She said it to Frodo and Sam before either looked, though.

Originally posted by Ruinel
As far as magic, I'm not sure what you mean by this. But I know our Elven ways are strange to the Atani. ;)
Very true. Even the Atani are not sure of what is 'magic', but as I was raised as one of them I began to understand what it is they mean.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
She said it to Frodo and Sam before either looked, though. No, it is said to Frodo only when Frodo is drawn closer to the basin water by the Eye. It is not said to Sam. (If you find it different, please let me know.)

[Sister Golden Hair]

As for "Elven magic" What may have seemed like magic to motals was an art and natural to the Elves. There are instances in the books where the Elves seem to be perplexed by the word magic. When Pippin, I believe asks the Elves of Lorien about the cloaks being magic, the Elves do not quite understand. they tell him that they are fair garmants, but they will not turn shaft or blade. When Galadriel talks to Frodo about looking into the mirror, she tells him " this is I believe what you would call magic." In the Silmarillion when it describes how Finrod changes the appearance of his comrads and himself, it says "by the arts of Felagund." So, it appears, at least as far as Tolkien says, that these things were arts that were natural to the Elves.

As for Galadriel telling Frodo to not touch the water, I think Ruinel hit the nail on the head there.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, it is said to Frodo only when Frodo is drawn closer to the basin water by the Eye. It is not said to Sam. (If you find it different, please let me know.) It is said to both; to Sam before he looks, and to Frodo when he is drawn closer by the eye.

To Sam: 'Like as not,' said the Lady with a gentle laugh. 'But come, you shall look and see what you may. Do noy touch the water!'
Sam climbed up on the foot of the pedestal and leaned over the basin....To Frodo:The Mirror seemed to be growing hot and curls f steam were rising from the water. He [Frodo] was slipping forward.
'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly.

[anduin]

Perhaps, it would just disturb the image and make it all ripplely, disappear even. :p Anyway, that is what I thought about it. Not very interesting I know.

[Kalile]

I think that since it is a form of scrying, if you did touch the water, you might, in effect, help these things to happen. I'm not sure how to explain this: I'm not eloquent enough, but I read somewhere about an uncertainty principle, that you aren't sure of something unless you see it happen. For example, the author used a kitten in a box. When the air runs out, the kitten dies... but not until you open the box to find out. When you look at the future, and you disturb the forces at work, something changes. You have to look to see what, and it might not be what you wanted.


I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense, I think Terry Pratchett wrote about it, it's hard to extrapolate from his work to Tolkien's.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair


As for Galadriel telling Frodo to not touch the water, I think Ruinel hit the nail on the head there.

So then, it is probable that Galadriel knew that Sauron would be searching for Frodo through the mirror, and that in touching the water, Frodo may well have given away his position to Sauron (or something worse, like going over to the spiritual realm where the Nazgul would have overpowered him.)

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Ruinel
A power that she held because of Nenya.

Have you got anything to back this statement up? I thought that the rings only provided a means of protection and preservation of the realms of the Elves? I would have thought that - much like Gandalf - she already weilded this power?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sheeana
So then, it is probable that Galadriel knew that Sauron would be searching for Frodo through the mirror, and that in touching the water, Frodo may well have given away his position to Sauron (or something worse, like going over to the spiritual realm where the Nazgul would have overpowered him.) When Frodo looked into the mirror, and the "Eye" appered, and was roving this way and that, searching, the Ring became very heavy about Frodo's neck and was drawing him down toward the water. Because of the Ring's presence, the mirror may have acted as a conductor and had Frodo touched the water, perhaps Sauron would have seen him. Not all the images in the mirror were real, but perhaps in this instance Sauron could have seen Frodo as through a Palantir.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Have you got anything to back this statement up? I thought that the rings only provided a means of protection and preservation of the realms of the Elves? I would have thought that - much like Gandalf - she already weilded this power?
No, I'm sorry. I don't have Letters or anything that would back up my thoughts on that. I just got the impression about Nenya in that part of the story. It's about then that Frodo sees that Galadriel has upon her hand the Elven wrought ring, Nenya. And I extended, in my mind, that preservation and protection could cover the Mirror's use as well. Perhaps someone else has a book that would help clarify where the 'magic' of the Mirror came from.

[barrelrider110]

I agree with Ruinel. The others who posessed an elven ring- Elrond, Gandalf, seemed also to have the gift of forsight. I think all of the elven rings gave the bearer the ability of prescience, though in different ways.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
I agree with Ruinel. The others who posessed an elven ring- Elrond, Gandalf, seemed also to have the gift of forsight. I think all of the elven rings gave the bearer the ability of prescience, though in different ways. It appears the gift of forsight was possessed by all the Eldar. Perhaps though, bearing one of the rings of power enhanced that gift.

[kiwi52291]

Originally posted by Sheeana
So then, it is probable that Galadriel knew that Sauron would be searching for Frodo through the mirror, and that in touching the water, Frodo may well have given away his position to Sauron (or something worse, like going over to the spiritual realm where the Nazgul would have overpowered him.)

What about Sam? Why couldn't Sam touch the water. Another reason could be that if they touched the water all the bad stuff they saw would actually happen.

[Elf Girl]

That's an idea. Is there any evidence or is it just a theory?

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by kiwi52291
What about Sam? Why couldn't Sam touch the water. Another reason could be that if they touched the water all the bad stuff they saw would actually happen.

Well, Sauron was looking for ALL hobbits great and small, and it is possible that in touching the water, the 'magic' of Galadriel's ring might have revealed itself and the hobbits to Sauron.

Ruinel: I am still unconvinced that the ring aided her in this - however, I do believe that it may have enhanced her prescience.

[elixir]

I don't really think that touching the water would have harmed them or revealed them to Sauron, because if it had been true, Galadriel had been more careful.

I believe that it would have just ruined the picture in the basin or the water was kind of sacrid.

[kiwi52291]

Actually I didn't give any thought to that comment, I was just bored with too much time on my hands.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by elixir
I don't really think that touching the water would have harmed them or revealed them to Sauron, because if it had been true, Galadriel had been more careful.

Perhaps. Or perhaps there was danger in touching the water, but she was driven to showing them because of great need?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by elixir
I don't really think that touching the water would have harmed them or revealed them to Sauron, because if it had been true, Galadriel had been more careful.
I don't see why. Frodo and Sam are grown hobbits, they are competent not to touch some water. Galadriel would be demeaning them if she didn't give them the choice because she was afraid they were incompetant.

[elixir]

I didn't mean that being more careful would be not showing them the Mirror, but I think she would have said something more than just "don't touch the water" if it had been dangerous.

And of course the hobbits were competent not to touch the water if they're been told, not on purpose, but it might have happen by accident, someone might have just slipped or something like that... :rolleyes:

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by elixir
I didn't mean that being more careful would be not showing them the Mirror, but I think she would have said something more than just "don't touch the water" if it had been dangerous.
I still think that in that situation, with Galadriel saying it, anything she commands will be taken seriousely.

[Lizra]

Well, I really don't know what was meant when she said this, I was thinking along the lines of.....

If they touched the water in her mirror, the "magic" would be ruined, the vision would stop. Perhaps the physical interruption of the "magic" might shock or jolt them, causing bodily damage, amnesia, unconsciousness, brain or body damage etc. I think the notion of touching the water causing events to come true, or change, is placing too much power/importance in her mirror. I saw the mirror as a "vision" device, nothing else.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Ruinel: I am still unconvinced that the ring aided her in this - however, I do believe that it may have enhanced her prescience.
I agree with you and SGH. The Ring could have enhanced her natural prescience.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Well, Sauron was looking for ALL hobbits great and small, and it is possible that in touching the water, the 'magic' of Galadriel's ring might have revealed itself and the hobbits to Sauron.
I find this thread very interesting. It seems that the professor did not provide any definitive answer, so it up to us to speculate.

Galadriel did say, “Seeing is both good and perilous.� Galadriel warned the hobbits twice, gently, but firmly (with exclamation point), about not touching the water. She did this both before they looked into the mirror, and when Frodo saw the eye. Galadriel also said “Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal, and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things, which we wish to behold.�

This implies that she has some control over the mirror, maybe she can afford some protection over the viewer as long as the water is not touched. But two points very strongly contradict this argument: (1) It is Galadriel’s mirror, and as such, a mirror can only show an image one-way and (2) when Frodo sees the eye and realizes that the eye is searching for him, “he also knew that it could not see him-not yet, not unless he willed it.�

This implies that the ring was drawn to the eye, much as a dog responds to his master’s call but cannot answer. Frodo was the master of the ring, and could only reveal it to Sauron willingly by putting it on rather than by touching the water.

I think that by touching the water the image mirror would be lost or distorted, or the watcher would suffer physical or mentally. The true peril of the mirror lay in the temptation to allow the mirror to guide your actions:

“Remember [Sam] that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.�

[Sister Golden Hair]

Another thing that was interesting, is that Galadriel breathed upon the water after she filled the basin. What was her purpose in the first place for even showing them the mirror? Was it because she had seen in Sam's mind that he wished to see Elven magic, or was it to give them a sense of the danger of the enemy? Do you think that the images in the mirror could be influenced by the thoughts or images in the mind of the viewer?

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Another thing that was interesting, is that Galadriel breathed upon the water after she filled the basin. What was her purpose in the first place for even showing them the mirror? Was it because she had seen in Sam's mind that he wished to see Elven magic, or was it to give them a sense of the danger of the enemy? Do you think that the images in the mirror could be influenced by the thoughts or images in the mind of the viewer?

I think breathing on the water turned it from a basin filled with water into the mirror. As for her motives-- good question. Certainly she felt connected with Frodo as a ring bearer. There was risk involved in doing it, but the quest itself was a desperate gamble, and if she could aid the quest by any means it would be worth the risk, and Galadriel was definitely a risk-taker.

Or, perhaps by showing Frodo the mirror, doubtless he would see the eye, and be frightened and offer the ring to her. I don't think she wanted to take the ring, for she could have done so easily but perhaps, deep down, she wanted to be offered the ring.

[Elrond the Wise]

I have always thought that if they touch the water the pictures in the mirror wuold go away or somthing like that:D

[Earniel]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
I agree with Ruinel. The others who posessed an elven ring- Elrond, Gandalf, seemed also to have the gift of forsight. I think all of the elven rings gave the bearer the ability of prescience, though in different ways.

I wonder whether there's a connection between the fact that Galadriel used a water-filled bassin as her mirror and the fact that her ring, Nenya, is the ring of water?

[Melonethriel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
the water was "sacred" in a sense, and something that should not be touched, whether because of any virtue of its own, or because it was used in the Mirror of Galadriel, or that it was somehow "consecrated" (when I say "sacred" and "consecrated", I do not mean in a religious sense, ...) and therefore something which should not be touched.

I agree with Gwaimir. The water was pure, andtherefore powerful. It was never harmed by man, orc, or hobbit for that matter, and it has powers. If the water was tainted at all in any way, I am sure the magic would have been gone. :)

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I wonder whether there's a connection between the fact that Galadriel used a water-filled bassin as her mirror and the fact that her ring, Nenya, is the ring of water?

I personally don't believe that the ring gave her power over the water; I'm of the belief that the rings were meant for preservation, and nothing more. Gandalf, for instance, was a servant of the flame of Anor, which came from Illuvatar, not the ring. It also seems hard to imagine that Elrond's protective spell over the waters around Rivendell came from the power of Air. I think all ring-bearers had their own intrinsic powers that may have been enhanced to some extent by the rings that they bore, but not overly so. You must also remember that the rings were granted to the bearers to be hidden, not used. And, if they were to be used, then why give Cirdan the ring of Fire? Why give Galadriel the ring of Water? Surely it would make more sense to give Cirdan the water one?

[Earniel]

No, I wasn't thinking in the way that the Ring of water would give it's bearer command over water. I don't think Tolkien ever suggested something like that. At least, not to my knowledge. If the rings were indeed so closely tied with the elements they presented, it would have indeed been more logical to give the Ring of water to Cirdan.

But Barrelrider110 said that the bearers of the Elven rings seemed to have forsight of some sort. I just wondered, since Galadriel got that sort of forsight through the waterfilled mirror, whether there was some connection with her Ring of water. Or whether it was a coincedence.

[Aragorn_of_the_west]

I think that Galadriel had extended forsight as a result of her being a high elf- as someone said( im sorry- i dont have time to look up who), all elves have a natural gift of forsight- and probely being a high elf would extend her forsight even more.
one more point is that( please correct me if i am wrong)' but didnt Galadriel have a distint realashionship with a Valar/Mia( *cant remember*)?
i have no proof of these claims but i said them because i have a distint memory of them in the Sil. again- correct me if i am wrong.

[Helix]

Just a guess, but would touching the water possibly reveal Frodo to Sauron? Frodo did see the eye in the Mirror, possibly if he had touched the water, he would be visible to it.

[Tanoliel]

I thought--I think someone mentioned something like this before--that by breathing on the mirror, Galadriel began the spell (I dislike the word "spell" for this, but it's the only one I've got) that would show the pictures: began the scrying. Touching the water would disturb the surface that both the pictures were shown on and the spell was placed on: therefore disturbing the water would disturb and thus end the spell.

Aii....I am more than usually verbose today. Sorry. ;)

Kalile: You're thinking of Schrodinger's Cat--Pratchett didn't come up with it, he just made it sound much more interesting. :) It goes like this: The cat is in the box with a bit of poison which it may or may not eat, and therefore may or may not die. Until the box is opened, the cat is both alive and dead--both possibilities are possible. Terry Prachett adds that whatever the cat's vital status, it is also spitting mad. :D
I can't remember what this had to do with Galadriel's mirror...but oh well. :)

Tano

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I personally don't believe that the ring gave her power over the water; I'm of the belief that the rings were meant for preservation, and nothing more. Gandalf, for instance, was a servant of the flame of Anor, which came from Illuvatar, not the ring.

Actually, if I remember aright, it was "servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." Big difference. :) Anor is the Sindarin word for (and no doubt name of) the Sun; the Secret Fire was, I believe, a part of the spirit of Eru, that part which was linked to the act of creation; for remember how Melkor sought it in the Void (yet it was with Iluvatar in the Timeless Halls), long before sun or moon, Tree or star, even the very Ainulindale itself came to Be. I think (though I don't remember if it says this) that he sought it to be able to make his own beings; yet he found it not, and thus, the Enemy can only mock or corrupt, but never truly create anew.

Regarding the Rings, I think they had to do (aside with the universal Elven-ring trait of stopping change and preserving the land, "have their cake and eat it") with the more spiritual traits of the element with which they were associated. Narya, for instance, I think kindled the hearts of others, and gave them strength to press on; spiritually associated with Fire. Nenya, if I remember, had the especial gift of healing; spiritually associated with Water. At least, that was the impression I got.

I think that Ruinel may have been right Frodo's touching the water revealing him to Sauron; yet somehow I cannot see that the same thing would have been true of Samwise, and that leads me to think that there was a different reason for it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You are correct on the "Secret Fire" GW. The "Secret Fire" is the "Flame Imperishable" found only with Iluvatar.

[Attalus]

I agree with those who have said that touching the water would break the spell, possibly by interrupting its command by Galadriel that she had imposed by the act of breathing on it. I do not think that any harm would have come to Frodo or Sam had they disobeyed. I further think that Galadriel showed the Mirror to Frodo just to give him further information that might aid him on his Quest, which, as she observed, stood on the edge of a knife. Anything she could do to help, she wanted to do. And, Frodo did offer her the Ring, as she desired. It is to her credit and a testimony to her wisdom that she declined. JRRT says elsewhere, Unfinished Tales, I think, that it was her refusal of the Ring that got the Ban lifted from her so that she could return to Valinor.

[Valandil]

*bump*

Olmer - here's one of those threads anyway... it was further back than I remembered. :)

[Beren3000]

Ok, I'm new to this thread but I'm too lazy to look over all the posts. So please forgive me if the ideas are post here are repeated.
However, I disagree with Attalus. I think that in some way, Galadriel was affected by the Ring and showed Frodo the mirror knowing that some way or another, Sauron would pop in there and would scare Frodo into giving her the Ring. I think that her refusal after that is of her own accord (IOW, she came to her senses afterwards). Remember that when Galdriel was talking to Frodo about the Ring, she said something like : I'd not deny that I desired the Ring for a long time, yet you give it to me freely. I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. Following that line of thought, I'd say that whatever Galadriel had done to the mirror to make it affect Frodo would have been disrupted by his touching the water, that's where I agree with you Attalus. Anyway, I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible...

[The Gaffer]

I also have the same recollection as Attalus: Galadriel's refusal of the Ring permitted her to return to Valinor. There's something about it in Unfinished Tales.

There is the small question of, if what she really wanted was the Ring, why did she turn it down?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
There is the small question of, if what she really wanted was the Ring, why did she turn it down? Because she was wise enough to know that the Ring would corrupt her.

[BeardofPants]

She probably wanted to go home as well. It must have sucked getting her heiny kicked out because of some hot-headed males.

[Olmer]

Wow! So many interesting thoughts. Thanks Valandil , this thread fully satisfied my curiosity.
However, I agree with an idea :disturbing the water - disturbing the future. It's believed that person, who is trying to see his future through some seeing object (mirror, crystal ball, water) should never touch the item, while in session, for your destiny is not firmly set in the space-time. Seeing your future you see a suggestion of what might happen according to a multiple choices given to you.
It might will never happen, but if you will disturb the thread of your future, you are setting up your destiny firmly on one path, you don't have any more the power to change your destiny: no matter what you will decide the outcome will be the same.

Beren3000 I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible…
No, you are not paranoid. You are just on the target. In another thread Valandil asked me why the elves of Lorien would conspire with orcs to put the Fellowship in peril, and your guess gives an answer.
You are right about Galadriel, remember, she was saying � if MY designs had not gone amiss� ? She had her original design, another than Gandalf’s and Elrond’s plan for the Ring, - a preservation, and she planned to employ Gandalf in its realization from the beginning.
In sense, after a few Ages her wish "to rule there a realm at her own will" (Sillmarillion) finally came true and she was not interested to be one of many sitting at the feet of Manwe in Valinor. The preservation of the Ring was moving an inevitable emigration on an undefined time, giving her a title of most powerful Elf in the Middle-earth.
But her plan was not accepted, her comrades from the Counsil of the Wise made a move, which Sauron did not count on: they decided on bilateral defeat - destruction of the Middle-earth magic, and the Fellowship with Gandalf-overseer began its quest.
But an unpredicted things has happened: Gandalf got out of the game just at the time, when the Ring arrived in Lothlorien. And Galadriel is taking the reins in her hands, improvising on the way.
She wants to preserve the Ring, but at the same time she does not want to give Sauron a reason to suspect that the Ring is in Lorien’s safekeeping.
Her deceitful plan was just as treacherous as it was elegant: she decided to sacrifice the Fellowship.

[Bombadillo]

I think this is one of the few times when I'd rather accept the simplest answer: it was her water and the hobbits had no business messing with it. We all know it wasn't normal water, and she'd probably have to work to restore its 'magic' power if they'd touched it. That would be a nuicance.

[Count Comfect]

If I recall correctly, the time she says "do not touch the water" is when Frodo is leaning over the basin, being caught in the glare of the Eye.

So saying "do not touch the water" could just have been the easiest way to break the hold that she could see his vision had over him.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Count Comfect

So saying "do not touch the water" could just have been the easiest way to break the hold that she could see his vision had over him.
What "hold" she was breaking saying the same to Sam before he even looked into the mirror?:)

[Count Comfect]

That was to make sure he was thinking of that instead of whatever he saw. Preemptive :)

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Beren3000
However, I disagree with Attalus. I think that in some way, Galadriel was affected by the Ring and showed Frodo the mirror knowing that some way or another, Sauron would pop in there and would scare Frodo into giving her the Ring. I think that her refusal after that is of her own accord (IOW, she came to her senses afterwards). Remember that when Galdriel was talking to Frodo about the Ring, she said something like : I'd not deny that I desired the Ring for a long time, yet you give it to me freely. I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. Following that line of thought, I'd say that whatever Galadriel had done to the mirror to make it affect Frodo would have been disrupted by his touching the water, that's where I agree with you Attalus. Anyway, I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible... I highly disagree with this. Galadriel was far too wise to interject a being as powerful as Sauron into her own magic. This on the face of it would be an evil fact, rejected by her only a few paragraphs later, "Would that not have been a noble deed to set to the credit of the Ring, if I had taken it by force or by fear from my guest?" (Italics mine) Certainly the Ring was trying to corrupt Galadriel, as it did all it came in contact with it, but she rejected it emphatically, even freely offered, and we see no sign of hesitation in her, unlike in the movie. Instead of Jackson's pyrotechnics, we have her laughing "with a sudden clear laugh."

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Attalus. I do not think Galadriel tried to get the Ring. I beleieve that if she really want the Ring, she would just take it from the Fellowship when they entered Lothlorien... does it matter how she takes the Ring?

Olmer... I don't get it. You say one time that Gandalf manipulated everyone, now you say Galadirle had plans for Gandalf... that's a quite big net of manipulation in Middle Earth that Tolkien has never mentioned, isn't it?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I beleieve that if she really want the Ring, she would just take it from the Fellowship when they entered Lothlorien... does it matter how she takes the Ring?
You say one time that Gandalf manipulated everyone, now you say Galadirle had plans for Gandalf... that's a quite big net of manipulation in Middle Earth that Tolkien has never mentioned, isn't it? I don't get it.
Never mentionedI? It is in the book which is he wrote!! You can see it if you will try to be a little bit analitical.
I guess somehow my explanations was not clear enough if you still can not get it. :(
Galadriel didn't needed the Ring to rule, she was already ruling.. She was the most powerful and I'd say the very wise person on Middle Earth at that time.
She knew the true nature of the Ring, which , according to my observations, was not giving a total power (didn't work for its owner Sauron).
Sauron made the Ring NOT to achieve the dominance by OVERPOWERING (he was quite powerful already), but by stripping of the power all, who opposed him, feeding himself with this power and life - force, thus gaining abilities to "materialise" from a spirit form and gaining an "eyesight" to see plans and notions of the others in more clear perspective.
The Ring was programmed to seek the more powerful "donor" and worked accordingly.

As I said before , Galadriel and Gandalf knew that with the aid of the Ring they would acheve almost total dominion, but at the end they would turn into soulless shades of persons they used to be, kind like nazguls, but due to their origin, much more powerful servants of Sauron.
But even if Gandalf and Galadriel were well aware of the Ring's real purpose, the attraction of the Ring was so powerful that to resist such "pull" they were really had to figth with themselves.

They both didn't need the Ring to wield, but they didn't want it to be destroyed neither, for it's allowed to keep things as they are - unchanged. So, naturally, Galadriel, as a ruler of her "neverland" realm was more interested in preservance of the Ring .
But to let Frodo out without the Ring would be a very bad political move , because everyone, who were desiring to get the Ring would be looking at Lothlorien. She did not need more enemies then she already had, and she made brilliant and flexible plan of ring's dissapearance .

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Olmer
.

They both didn't need the Ring to wield, but they didn't want it to be destroyed neither, for it's allowed to keep things as they are - unchanged. So, naturally, Galadriel, as a ruler of her "neverland" realm was more interested in preservance of the Ring .
But to let Frodo out without the Ring would be a very bad political move , because everyone, who were desiring to get the Ring would be looking at Lothlorien. She did not need more enemies then she already had, and she made brilliant and flexible plan of ring's dissapearance . I take issue that Gandalf and /or Galadriel didn't want the Ring to be destroyed.
Gandalf was the prime mover in the quest to rid Middle-earth of the Ring, and was willing to die (at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum) to fulfill it. Galadriel did have to overcome the temptations of the Ring, which she rather mockingly, it seems to me, details to Frodo and Sam; but she does everything in her power, including clothing the Fellowship in the garb of the Galadrim and giving Aragorn the famous and powerful Elessar, to make the quest succeed. She does realise that there was a very good chance, as actually happened, that the Three would fail, and that Lorien would be no more the enchanted place that she loved, but she deliberately took the chance. As for her "manipulations," she called the White Council, and wanted Gandalf to be its head, for even then she mistrusted Saruman. She always was able to read motivations of people, even cloaked Maiar, and trusted Gandalf but not Saruman. Can you say she was wrong?

[matthew]

Yes, but I kinda disagree. Galadriel was wistful about the passing of her realm, but didn't she want to go back to Valinor? I mean, she didn't just have a ticket back, but I feel like she a least had a clue she could go back.

[matthew]

After the destruction of the ring, I mean.

[Attalus]

Yes, but I kinda disagree. Galadriel was wistful about the passing of her realm, but didn't she want to go back to Valinor? I mean, she didn't just have a ticket back, but I feel like she a least had a clue she could go back.She was able to go back to Valinor sometime between her refusal of the Ruling Ring and of its destruction. When Frodo & Co. left Lothlorien, according to the Letters, she was still under the impression that she was still barred, hence the wistful poignancy of her final song: "Fare well! Maybe even you will find Valinor."

[Elanor the Fair]

Galadriel did have to overcome the temptations of the Ring, which she rather mockingly, it seems to me, details to Frodo and Sam; but she does everything in her power, including clothing the Fellowship in the garb of the Galadrim and giving Aragorn the famous and powerful Elessar, to make the quest succeed. She does realise that there was a very good chance, as actually happened, that the Three would fail, and that Lorien would be no more the enchanted place that she loved, but she deliberately took the chance.

Yes, indeed. It was like Frodo said at the Havens about someone having to give things up, lose them, so that others may have them. Galadriel was making the ultimate sacrifice - giving up the realm she created and loved so that the people of middle-earth could live a life of freedom and light. She knew this was a probability, yet still chose to aid the destruction of the ring.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet Galadriel was rewarded for rejecting the Ring. She was previouslt banned from sail to the Undying Lands but after rejecting the Ring her ban was lifted and she was able to sail.

[The Gaffer]

I don't know if there are any Letters that bear on this, but IIRC, Unfinished Tales is a bit vague about whether her ban was self-imposed or not. She certainly rejected the invitation at the end of the First Age.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From Unfinished Tales, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1980

Pride still moved her, when at the end of the Eldar Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed; when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.

[Artanis]

There are several accounts on the history of Galadriel, some of them are contradictory. In 'The Road Goes Ever On' it is said: The question SÃ* man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the question at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.

Letter #297 says: The Exiles were allowed to return — save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained.With a footnote saying: At the time of her lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressea, the Solitary Isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. (The Land of Aman after the downfall of Númenor, was no longer in physical existence 'within the circles of the world'.) Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.

All this is also quoted in 'Unfinished Tales'.

However, Tolkien changed his mind about Galadriel during his lifetime, his last ideas of her story was that she was 'unstained', but got caught up in the ban against the Exiles only by bad luck, and therefore was allowed to return at the end of the first age. But then she refused out of pride.