The Hobbit and the deeper mythology

[azalea]

Okay, I promise not to overdo it with new threads, but since I'm reading it I thought it would be nice to start a discussion thread here.

I have noticed a few things that either connect with the deeper mythology of ME OR that seem to disagree. Of course I realize The Hobbit was written with a different purpose in mind and for a different audience, but I thought it would be interesting to point out some of them here. This is the first time I've read The Hobbit since finishing The Silmarillion, so it gives me a different perspective.

1) The story mentions dwarves passing through the Shire, which is something we don't see in LotR that I remember (I mean dwarves besides the Company), although it does mention elves.

There is a line "Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before." I guess this is Bree? Then it describes them going in the "Lone-lands," and mentions many hills, on some of which are old castles with an evil look. I guess the reason we don't see these in LotR is because they are not travelling on the road, whereas in The Hobbit they are. We know they are following a similar route because in LotR they end up at the stone trolls at one point. But what would the castles be? Is there anything in The Silmarillion that would connect with castles in this location? I'm so bad with geography, I don't know.

2)Gandalf struggles a little to lead the dwarves on the path that leads to Rivendell (not much, but it describes him having to look very carefully for the white stones that mark the way). I find this interesting, because in LotR there is no mention of how difficult it is to find Rivendell (we don't see Gandalf's arrival, the horse takes Frodo there, and Glorfindel and Aragorn lead the other hobbits). But it makes sense obviously.

3)Bilbo says "it smells like elves." :) I wonder what they smell like! There is a whole thread about how different the elves in The Hobbit are from those in LotR. But there is one thing: Bilbo finds it intriguing that the elves know his name, which could have come through Gandalf, but also the one says "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!" Which leads me to believe that actually the Rivendell elves have seen him in the Shire and knew who he was before, and so thought it funny that he was riding on a pony, knowing him. So I guess they would visit the Shire without being seen by its inhabitants, and I think this is alluded to in LotR.

4)We get mention of Durin and Gondolin when Elrond is looking at the swords and map.:)
I always found it strange that Gandalf does not identify the swords as being made by elves, but I suppose it fits his personality of not making a statement about something unless he is sure about it (as in, maybe he thought they could have been made by men or dwarves OR elves, so he just withholds judgement about them).

5) Stone giants are mentioned in Over Hill and Under Hill, and Gandalf mentions that he'll try to find a friendly giant later in the book. But I don't think giants are mentioned in the other books, only trolls.

I'm sure I'll find more things as I continue to read. Does anyone else remember anything like this, that either connects or disagrees with stuff later published about ME?
If not now, maybe you'll see something when you read it again and can add something.

[olsonm]

1) The castles they see by the road side are ruins of Arnor (probably Rhudaur). Frodo sees these same ruins in "Flight to the Ford", after they cross the Last Bridge.
As for dwarves crossing the Shire, I don't remember any either but the dwarves staying at the Prancing Pony were going West according to Butterbur and they almost certainly passed through the Shire on their way to the Blue mountains.

2)In Many Partings we find this; "At last one evening they came over the high moors, suddenly as to travelers it always seemed, to the brink of the deep valley of Rivendell..." This may or may not be related to Rivendell being hard to find.

3)Elves traveling unseen in the Shire is more than alluded to in LOTR. Galdor Inglorion and co. were from Rivendell and they would have been unseen if Frodo hadn't been on a mission. (recall that the elves expressed surprise to see Hobbits on the road at that time of night)


I'm just starting to re-read the Hobbit so I hope I'll add more soon. :)

[Lizra]

I've read the Hobbit so many times, and enjoy it so much, I don't think twice about these things! I think the other "fussy" stories are the weird ones! ;) :D I'll think on this! :)

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by azalea
1) The story mentions dwarves passing through the Shire, which is something we don't see in LotR that I remember (I mean dwarves besides the Company), although it does mention elves. I just reread FotR, and I'm pretty sure I remember it saying somewhere (I just looked but can't find it right now) in the opening chapters that Dwarves were seen in the Shire passing West to the Blue Mountains.

[azalea]

Olsonm and Shadowfax: now I remember about the dwarves, you're right. :)

RE: the elves passing through unseen: It is clear that they would have passed through unseen as that group was, but would the Rivendell elves have gone there and back? Maybe for a visit to the coast (or to accompany others who were leaving?), but how would they know Bilbo -- they would have to have spied on him or something to know his name.:confused: Well, I see no problem in that, but it's just something that stood out for me. What it looks like to me is that the elves would go there for something like a camping trip, and would observe the hobbits interacting.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by azalea
. There is a line "Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before." I guess this is Bree? Then it describes them going in the "Lone-lands," and mentions many hills, on some of which are old castles with an evil look. I guess the reason we don't see these in LotR is because they are not travelling on the road, whereas in The Hobbit they are. We know they are following a similar route because in LotR they end up at the stone trolls at one point. But what would the castles be? Is there anything in The Silmarillion that would connect with castles in this location? I'm so bad with geography, I don't know.

I found this at the Encyclopedia of Arda

"Lone-lands "

The name among Men and Hobbits for the wide region of northern Middle-earth that lay between the Blue Mountains in the west and the Misty Mountains in the east. They are more commonly known by their Elvish name, Eriador.

"Arnor"

Founded by Elendil in the last years of the Second Age, Arnor was the great kingdom of Men in the north of Middle-earth. It lay between the Misty Mountains in the east, and the Blue Mountains on the borders of Lindon in the west, and encompassed the area where the Shire would be founded many years later. Its capital, and the seat of its Kings, was at Annúminas on Lake Nenuial.

Elendil fell in the Siege of Barad-dûr in II 3441, and his eldest son Isildur, who would have taken the rulership, was lost two years later as he journeyed back from the southlands with his three eldest sons. These were also slain by Orcs at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Isildur's youngest son Valandil, however, had not gone to the war, and was kept safe in Rivendell; he was accounted the third King of Arnor, though Isildur had never taken the throne.

The tenth and last King of Arnor was Eärendur. After his death in III 861, his three sons each made claims of succession. This led to the break-up of Arnor into three separate but related kingdoms; Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Eärendur's eldest son, Amlaith of Fornost, became King of Arthedain, and is considered the true heir to the line of Isildur.

Hope it helps. :)

[olsonm]

Originally posted by azalea
[B]RE: the elves passing through unseen: It is clear that they would have passed through unseen as that group was, but would the Rivendell elves have gone there and back? Galdor and Co. were from Rivendell. :)

[azalea]

Originally posted by olsonm
Galdor and Co. were from Rivendell. :)

MAYBE IT WAS HIM!!!!:eek: :) :eek: :) ;)

(but would Gildor have used the word "delicious?";) To describe a situation, I mean.)

Edit: OH! I just remembered one of the things I was going to mention (part of why I thought of starting this thread):
Can anyone explain this quote, from A Short Rest:
"In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief. "
:confused: So this implies that the elves of Rivendell were all part-human. I didn't think that was the case. (There may not be an explanation -- you're right, Lizra, reading The Silmarillion just made reading The Hobbit more confusing for me!;) )
(Suddenly I had deja vu -- I think someone posted about this somewhere before.)
Oh, and thanks for the quote, Ragnarok.:)

[olsonm]

Originally posted by azalea
MAYBE IT WAS HIM!!!!:eek: :) :eek: :) ;) It might have been! :D

Edit: OH! I just remembered one of the things I was going to mention (part of why I thought of starting this thread):
Can anyone explain this quote, from A Short Rest:
"In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief. "
:confused: So this implies that the elves of Rivendell were all part-human. I didn't think that was the case. That's just saying that Elrond was the chief of the Half-elven. In other words, it means: Elrond was the chief of the Half-elves AND master of the Last Homely House. Notice "The Houses of Healing", were Aragorn says; "Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power."

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by azalea
I'm sure I'll find more things as I continue to read. Does anyone else remember anything like this, that either connects or disagrees with stuff later published about ME?

Shelob had offspring of her own, smaller than she but with a cruel intelligence, that spread throughout the Ephel Dúath and north into Mirkwood. It was creatures like these that Bilbo encountered in The Hobbit.

[azalea]

Originally posted by olsonm

That's just saying that Elrond was the chief of the Half-elven. In other words, it means: Elrond was the chief of the Half-elves AND master of the Last Homely House. Notice "The Houses of Healing", were Aragorn says; "Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power."

Wow, that's really interesting, and something I hadn't noticed before!

Spiders: Yes, we haven't gotten there yet, but I love the progression through the books: In The Hobbit -- ooh, big scary spiders! In LotR -- An even bigger scary and extremely powerful spider! In The Silmarillion -- the biggest and most evil spider (that isn't actually a spider) of all!:D

[Millane]

I just reread FotR, and I'm pretty sure I remember it saying somewhere (I just looked but can't find it right now) in the opening chapters that Dwarves were seen in the Shire passing West to the Blue Mountains yepa it says
There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to it's end at the Grey Havens,and dwarves had always used it on their way to the mines in the Blue Mountains. and also Gildor says to Frodo "Three Hobbits in a wood at night. We have not seen such a thing since Bilbo went away."

[azalea]

Originally posted by azalea

5) Stone giants are mentioned in Over Hill and Under Hill, and Gandalf mentions that he'll try to find a friendly giant later in the book. But I don't think giants are mentioned in the other books, only trolls.


I am reading Letters, and it so happens that one of them to his publisher regarding the sequel to The Hobbit (he was in the process of writing LotR) actually mentions that there will be a giant. But there is no giant in the final work. My guess is that he is refering to the Balrog (or that the Balrog was originally going to be a giant).
It is facinating to read Letters at the same time as The Hobbit, because I got to read the author's (then) current discussion of the very text I'm reading!

[olsonm]

If I remember correctly from the HoMe VI: Return of the Shadow; the "Giant" was going to be an evil version of Treebeard! :eek:

[cassiopeia]

Yes, I remember something about Treebeard being evil.

At the end of the Hobbit, it mentions that Gandalf had gone to a council of white wizards and driven the Necromancer from Mirkwood. But in the LOTR it's the white council and there's only one white wizard, Saruman.

This a quote of Elrond and Gandalf talking about the Necromancer.

"Ere long now," Gandalf was saying, "The Forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!"

"It would be well indeed," said Elrond; "but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after."
Thankfully Elrond was wrong, and they only had to wait about eighty yars! :)

[azalea]

Oh, I had thought about Treebeard, but I'm so glad he wasn't made evil!:)

[TurinTurambar]

that is crazy what aragorn says. b/c he is definitely wrong Galadriel and Celeborn are far older than him. Maybe he as refering to all of the half even but it doesnt seem so. Do you have a page number?

BTW i think when he is refering to the giants maybe hes just refering o the ents.

[Earniel]

that is crazy what aragorn says. b/c he is definitely wrong Galadriel and Celeborn are far oder than him. Maybe he as refering to all of the half even but it oesnt seem so. Do you have a page number?
Note that Aragorn, a Man, is saying: "Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power." I take it Aragorn is referring to the Half-Elves, as his Dúnedain ancestors before him descended from Elros, Elrond's brother. Of the Half-Elves and their descendants, Elrond is indeed the oldest.

[TurinTurambar]

Ahh, that makes since. It must be hes talking about the Dunedain. You are far wiser than me Earniel.

[Pailan]

4)We get mention of Durin and Gondolin when Elrond is looking at the swords and map.:)


I really enjoy the glimpses and hints at the history of ME which pop up in the stories. Gandalf's sword from the troll cave, which belonged to the king of Gondolin, Turgon, ... and boom you are dropped right into the middle of the Silmarillion. Durin, of Durin's Day, we later learn is one of the seven fathers of the Dwarves... and was alive even before the Elves! I really enjoy how the peaks into the frame work of history gives a deeper sense of reality to what would otherwise be a simple adventure story. Rereading The Hobbit allows all that stuff from The Silmarillion and LOTR to inform that sense of wonder.

Fun thread! Thanks azalea.

[barrelrider110]

"From that the talk turned to the great hoard itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for; "

Bladorthin was the name Tolkien was to have given Gandalf; except when you pronounced it -- it sounds like "bladder-thin," hardly fitting for a wizard.

[Fool_of_a_Took]

is this a mistake made by tolkein? We know that Gandalf had about a dozen names, yet why would he be described as "the great King...long since dead"?

...and Bladder-thin hardly sounds like a name suitable for a wizard, especially one as bad a** as gandalf :)

[barrelrider110]

is this a mistake made by tolkein? We know that Gandalf had about a dozen names, yet why would he be described as "the great King...long since dead"?

...and Bladder-thin hardly sounds like a name suitable for a wizard, especially one as bad a** as gandalf :)

You misunderstood Foolofatook. Tolkien decided against using the name for Gandalf precisely for the reasons you so elequently articulated. He apparently liked the name, so he recycled it.