Luthien's description

[Celeviel]

My friends and I were having an argument over a rather stupid thing but basically we were discussion the description of luthien for this game we're building from the Lords of Middle Earth books...

from what i've read in the silmarillion about luthien,

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

what i gathered of her physically was that she was over 6 feet tall of course, had really dark, maybe black hair, and her eyes were bluish grey, hence the starlit evening sky... my friends on the other hand believed that she had either blonde or silver hair and had violet-blue eyes... i don't see how that could be a possibility, given the description of her as clear as it could be, but i'm also interested what everyone has to say and what they envision of luthien... also if any of you have read the lords of middle earth book volume 2, i'm interested in hearing your comments as well...

[Ragnarok]

I have to agree with your description but I have only read The Silmarillion. I'm sure there is more information in the HoMe series.

[Silpion]

I agree with both of you. I found this description in ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’. It is a description of Arwen who was supposed to look like Lúthien.

The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

. . . Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Lúthien had come on earth again . . .

[Sister Golden Hair]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "Lords of Middle-earth" books?

[azalea]

Edit: Never mind.:o

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "Lords of Middle-earth" books? I am wondering the same thing.

[Celeviel]

the lords of middle earth books were from Iron Crown Enterprises and those books are for role playing game purposes...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Celeviel
the lords of middle earth books were from Iron Crown Enterprises and those books are for role playing game purposes... Ah, I knew I had heard it before, just couldn't place it. Thanks Celeviel.

[Celeviel]

:D

[Willow Oran]

Seeing as most of her desendents were described as having dark hair and gray eyes my best guees would be that your conclusion would be the closest to correct.

[Ornelírë Mistë]

Your description of her is right. In the Lays of Beleriand, Christopher Tolkien placed a former version of the poem, which said she had blonde hair and blue eyes. However, 'tis the older version.

[Rosie Gamgee]

I think it's in the Fellowship of the Ring that Tolkien says that the beauty of Luthien had returned in Arwen, and Arwen had dark hair and grey eyes, right? I always imagined Luthien with dark hair anyways.

[Ñólendil]

Your friends have no argument. They seem to be influenced by their imagination alone. No Elf was likely to have violet eyes. Silver hair would not be unlikely, as she is the daughter of Thingol, except for the fact that it specifically says on more than one occasion that she took after her mother and had black hair. Lúthien actually was an average-looking Elf, if you forget the fact that she is the most beautiful Child of Ilúvatar ever to live. That is to say, her traits, listed without all the flower language, were common. Most Elves were tall, had fair skin, and dark hair, and I have yet to read about an Elf that did not have grey eyes.

Blonde would have been unlikely, even if it did not say plainly that she had dark hair. Despite popular belief, blonde hair was not common among Elves, except for the Vanyar, and the House of Finarfin among the Ñoldor. (Although, the Elvenking Thranduil, Glorfindel, and an anonymous elf in Lothlórien all had golden hair.) The Tatyar and Nelyar (who comprise all Elves other than the Vanyar) were generally dark haired.

[Eärloth]

Yeah her hair was black there are no official drawings that I've come across where she has light hair - I mean:

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

How can shadows be light?

[Alqualaure]

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

How can shadows be light?

My thoughts exactly - "dark as the shadows of twilight" does not generally make me think of anything but black!

Celeviel, I cannot even guess where your friends got their idea of her! :p

Alqua :D

[Eärloth]

Maybe they got the idea of a blonde/silver-haired Lúthien from the Lay of Leithian:

'The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of Stars was in her hair
And in her raiment shimmering.

otherwise I cannot figure out what the hell they could be talking about

[Captain Stern]

Tall... yes, but 6 foot seems a bit much to me. She is a chick after all.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Tall... yes, but 6 foot seems a bit much to me. She is a chick after all. Yeah, but it says in UT that Galadriel was the tallest of Noldoran woman, and it mentions either in UT or HoMe that she was something like 6'4. that's taller than most of the Noldoran males.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Lúthien actually was an average-looking Elf, if you forget the fact that she is the most beautiful Child of Ilúvatar ever to live.
*giggle*

Anyway, I agree. Dark hair, fair skin, grey eyes. The Lay is very specific about that.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, but it says in UT that Galadriel was the tallest of Noldoran woman, and it mentions either in UT or HoMe that she was something like 6'4. that's taller than most of the Noldoran males.

In PoME it notes that Noldorin men were often 7' tall.

[Snowdog]

'Shadows of Twilight' is not blonde!