Were Beren and Lúthien right in their Quest?

[Maedhros]

From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Then Beren looking up beheld the eyes of Lúthien, and his glance went also to the face of Melian and it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth. Fear left him, and the pride of the eldest house of Men returned to him; and he said: 'My fate, O King, led me hither, through perils such as few even of the Elves would dare. And here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess for ever. For it is above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels. Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire. For Lúthien your daughter is the fairest of all the Children of the World.'
The question is:
Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemengly selfish reason?

[Ararax]

well it was their quest for the good of middle earth, and it wasnt jsut for luthien. there were reasons that the elves wated the simirils

[Anglorfin]

If blame could be placed on anybody I'd sooner place it on Thingol for not handing over the Silmaril to the sons of Feanor. Or possibly blame the sons of Feanor for demanding it. Ah screw, the Oath is to blame for all of it.

[Lalaith]

All this crap began with Feanor .....

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Jewels: The Grey Annals
Now King Inglor Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this was; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: ‘An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of all my realm endure that a son should inherit.’
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land?
So we have that Finrod knew that the war against Morgoth was hopeless, and this was before the Dagor Bragollach.
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen hi in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together.
So actually Beren had come to Finrod because he was not able to spend time with Lúthien, and Finrod knew that such a quest would lead to his death. It seems to me that his reason was his love for Lúthien that would only benefit himself.

P.S. Lalaith, that is the coolest avatar I have seen here.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Maedhros
P.S. Lalaith, that is the coolest avatar I have seen here.
Thanks. :o

[Lefty Scaevola]

It is Thingol's bigotry and arrogance and comtempt for the laws of his own people (Elven's parent have NO right in law or custom over whom the children marry, nor is any ritual required, but is certain froms [at least among the Nolder] are not observed, then the spouse gains only the spouse, and not kinship with the rest of the family) than brings curse and coom unpon Doriath.

[Artanis]

Thingol's problem was that he didn't take Beren seriously. He didn't see Beren as a person, he saw a Man, and his view on Men were clearly based on ignorance and haughtiness. He had lived inside the girdle ever since Men appeared in Beleriand, perhaps this was the first time he ever saw a Man. Maybe, if he had himself participated in the Dagor Bragollach, or if his kingdom hadn't been so isolated, he would have discovered the valour of Men sooner.

Beren on his side made an oath to Thingol, that he should bring him a Silmaril. His actions from that moment on seem logical, he had to find any aid that he could hope to get on the quest. His reasons were selfish, but when he sought the aid of Finrod he had no idea of what would follow; Finrod's death, the treason of Celegorm and Curufin, and eventually the fall of Nargothrond.

It may be noted that when Beren speaks to Thingol about his love for Luthien, "it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth". So perhaps all that happened was inevitable, and were meant to be. The union between Beren and Luthien brought high noblesse into the race of Men.

[Silpion]

I don’t really see selfishness on the part of Beren and Lúthien, they had aid from others but they also helped themselves in their quest. With the exception of Finrod, maybe, the involvement of others was their own choice. I say maybe Finrod because Beren did seek him out for aid. But, if Finrod didn’t mean to give aid to Barahir or his kin then he shouldn’t have sworn an oath to do that.
Beren travels on a perilous journey (where after he won’t talk about it because it brings back horror to his mind) to Doriath where he passes through the girdle of Melian, and when Beren first sees Lúthien he is struck with love for her and the same can be said for Lúthien when she first catches sight of Beren. Thingol is a barrier to their happiness but I think it was because of what Beren was (a Man) and also what Beren wanted was Thingol’s daughter. But Thingol looked in silence upon Lúthien; and he thought in his heart: ‘Unhappy Men, children of little lords and brief kings, shall such as these lay hands on you, and yet live?’ Thingol got caught in the curse of Mandos when he desired a Silmaril for himself. Regardless of whether he thought the quest for Beren was attainable or not that was his “price”. Once Beren swore to retrieve a Silmaril for Thingol he sought out Finrod. Finrod would aid him because of the oath he swore to Beren’s father Barahir. . . . he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin . . . Finrod has already foreseen his fate, he could have gone back on his word but Finrod was not the type of Elf to do that. Huan the hound wanted to free Lúthien from her captivity by Celegorm (who wanted to marry her) and Curufin. But Huan the hound was true of heart, and the love of Lúthien had fallen upon him in the first hour of their meeting; and he grieved at her captivity. Therefore he came often to her chamber; and at night he lay before her door, for he felt that evil had come to Nargothrond. Huan’s fate was also known, . . . that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world. he too chose to aid Lúthien. Thorondor and two other eagles also aided Lúthien and Beren lifting them from the realm of Morgoth and bearing them to the borders of Doriath. Among all birds and beasts the wandering and need of Beren had been noised, and Huan himself had bidden all things watch, that they might bring him aid.
I don’t think Beren and Lúthien were selfish, I think they were caught up in some sort of power that was set upon getting those two together. When Beren sets eyes on Lúthien it's almost described as if he falls under an enchantment and when Lúthien looks upon him it's like she's just compelled. To me, it just reads as if there is some sort of higher power or destiny that is at work. And although they may seek aid from others. Finrod, Huan, and Thorondor don't necessarily have to help them. They make the choice to help despite any consequences to themselves. If there is any to blame, I would say it goes back to the Silmarils and the Oath.
I'll stop rambling, all this is just my opinion.

[Maedhros]

From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen hi in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together.
It seems to me that Beren had no worries about involving Finrod in this, just because of the joy he had with Lúthien when they were together.

[Celeviel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien

The question is:
Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemengly selfish reason?

the way i see it, everyone at that time were all part of the scheme that was started by feanor's creation of the silmarils, and the oath that he had taken...

i think it really doesn't matter whether or not it was selfish of beren and luthien for enlisting finrod and everyone for assistance in reclaiming the silmarils... yes the motive was to present it to king thingol so that beren could by with luthien, but bottom line, the motive was to somehow reclaim the silmarils for whatever motive they had in mind as well as fullfilling the oath of feanor... so in my opinion, everyone at that time just happened to be part of situation where there is a goal to achieve, and they were all just trying to achive the goal by doing their own thing...

(btw, i'm new to the boards, so, hello to everyone! i'm still trying to fully understand the context of the silmarillion, so forgive me if i sound like i didn't make sense or if i was missing something)

[Ararax]

tolkien says that although men are free from the music in the end they will find that they have done the will of eru
this was why beren was able to pass the girdle of meliean (cant spell and dont ahve time to lookup)becasue he had a doom upon him greater then her power, just as bilbo found the ring the quest came from eru and from him alone for nothign in the music fortold it. and even the valar are bound by the music. though men and eru arent (seemingly hobbits rent either whihc makes me think they are relations of men)

[Maedhros]

so in my opinion, everyone at that time just happened to be part of situation where there is a goal to achieve, and they were all just trying to achive the goal by doing their own thing...
Hmmmm. The kingdom of Menegroth, had no part in the oath of Fëanor nor in the rebellion of the Ñoldor. Thingol hope was to remain in Doriath for as long as he could.
The goal to obtain the Silmarils was only of the exiled Ñoldor, especially the Fëanorians.
Do you really think that it is ok to ask for the death of Finrod just because Beren was sad that he couldn't be with Lúthien?
Do you think it was right that Huan died in the battle with Carcharoth?
Why couldn't Beren said to either of them the thing that he say to Lúthien, that it was too dangerous?

[Artanis]

But you can't really blame Huan's death on Beren, can you? They did not hunt Carcharoth because of the Silmaril, but because of the madness and onslaught of the great wolf. Beren had already won the hand of Lúthien by then. It was just sensible to send the best hunters, and Huan was among them. Besides, I think Huan was always Lúthien's helper, not Beren's.

[olsonm]

Where does it say that Beren knew Finrod would die?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by olsonm
Where does it say that Beren knew Finrod would die? I don't think that it says that anywhere. Finrod to a degree knew that he would die, but he was bound to his oath. I blame Thingol more than Beren for Finrod's death, because he knew that Beren would most likely turn to Finrod for that aid, and Thingol's hope was that the quest would be as deadly as possible. The only time I can remember any of the text mentioning that Beren thought Finrod may die, is in the Lay of Lethien, where the two of them (Beren and Finrod) were the only ones of the 12 companions remaining alive, and Beren releases Finrod from his oath, but by that time, I think Beren thought they were both dead ducks.

[BelegS]

Well, you people possess interesting views. :)

[I]Posted by Artanis[/B]
It may be noted that when Beren speaks to Thingol about his love for Luthien, "it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth". So perhaps all that happened was inevitable, and were meant to be. The union between Beren and Luthien brought high noblesse into the race of Men.

High Noblesse yes, but Indeed Beren's quest was based upon selfish reasons.
Offcourse everything can be defined by saying It was pre-ordained or It was meant to happen, but the fact is that the consequences of an action doesn't necessary judge whether the action was correct or foul. And In this case, whatever consequences Beren's quest had, the simple basic fact was that his quest was based around selfish reason.

Ironic, isn't it when one has to defend something he certainly doesn't believe in. :(

[Ñólendil]

Love, "A seemingly selfish reason"? I call it a noble cause, worth dying for. But I'm a hopeless romantic.

[Maedhros]

I call it a noble cause, worth dying for. But I'm a hopeless romantic.
Worth dying by the lovers, not someone outside their love.

[Ñólendil]

Maybe it is not worth your life, that is, maybe it is not worth it to you, but the undying love of two others was evidently worth it to Finrod. Findaráto was such a compassionate person that he could he feel the pain of Beren, and, understanding what it felt like to be severed from his love, he took on the quest of Beren, as a friend, as a man who understood. Finrod, and others, was perhaps the person who could say "their love is as important as my love, and I will help them, as I would help myself." Moreover, Beren and Lúthien did not twist anyone's arms, everyone who helped them did so of their own free will. I do not think Beren and Lúthien were being selfish.